It's Time To Abolish Teacher's Unions

[pecksniff]

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2021/12/its-time-abolish-teachers-unions-larry-sand/[/url]

When a RW posts an article, the first thing I do is look at the site's welcome page. Usually, the headlines found there make it very clear that nothing from the site is worthy of serious consideration. This one is no exception.

 

[schism666]

Yeah, I know, and I'm the fool for falling for it. Every Sarge debate goes exactly this way.

it's been like that forever. he asks for proof of your claims and you fail to back them up. he's good like that. and i mean "you" in general terms.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

it's been like that forever. he asks for proof of your claims and you fail to back them up. he's good like that. and i mean "you" in general terms.

Not really. Every Sarge debate ends up in word games. It's so tiresome.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Not really. Every Sarge debate ends up in word games. It's so tiresome.

None of them do. You claimed to be an engineer, I asked for proof, you haven't provided any. That's not a word game, that's you making a claim and then offering zero proof when asked.

 

[schism666]

Not really. Every Sarge debate ends up in word games. It's so tiresome.

how about when you were asked for proof about your theory on blue state exodus? no word play just you floundering.

 

[LittleDixie]

Not really. Every Sarge debate ends up in word games. It's so tiresome.

He is a straight up troll. I can't think of a single insightful comment that he's made. Nothing he says contributes anything to the discussion.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

He is a straight up troll. I can't think of a single insightful comment that he's made. Nothing he says contributes anything to the discussion.

You calling me names lets me know you acknowledge you lost the argument.

 

[ll74]

Guy has never spoken to a teacher decides that they know what's best for teschers

 

[bellisarius]

ALL public employee unions should be abolished.

At the Federal level this can be done by rescinding EO 10988. Some congressional action may also be required.

Each state will have to act to rescind unions within their jurisdictions.

A little background. In the late 1930's FDR called George Meany to the White House to discuss the issuance of an EO to allow Federal employees to form unions for the purposes of collective bargaining. Meany was adamantly opposed to the notion. His reasoning was that unlike the private sector there is no natural tensions between the union members and 'management.' The government would use the union members as bought and paid for votes at the expense of the taxpayer. He continued with the observation that eventually those unions would become the enemy of the people. His arguments were strong enough that FDR tabled the thought and Federal employees were not able to unionize until JFK issued EO 10988.

Meany's prescience is already manifesting it in those states that have been overly generous with the various benefits, especially retirement benefits, for the public employees. As an example CA's unfunded pension debt is approaching $1 trillion, or approx. $80,000/taxpayer. As the workforce is aging this debt is expected to increase in the coming years. The debt was accrued through collective bargaining. The politicians agreed to the benefits with the full knowledge that they would gain union support at the polling places and that they wouldn't be around to pay the piper when the debt came due. It was a 'win-win' for the political class.

Ultimately this is going to be seen at the Federal level as well because of the bloated bureaucracy that has been built up over the years.

Public employee unions are increasingly becoming the enemies of the taxpayer just as Meany predicted so many years ago.

 

[LittleDixie]

ALL public employee unions should be abolished.

At the Federal level this can be done by rescinding EO 10988. Some congressional action may also be required.

Each state will have to act to rescind unions within their jurisdictions.

A little background. In the late 1930's FDR called George Meany to the White House to discuss the issuance of an EO to allow Federal employees to form unions for the purposes of collective bargaining. Meany was adamantly opposed to the notion. His reasoning was that unlike the private sector there is no natural tensions between the union members and 'management.' The government would use the union members as bought and paid for votes at the expense of the taxpayer. He continued with the observation that eventually those unions would become the enemy of the people. His arguments were strong enough that FDR tabled the thought and Federal employees were not able to unionize until JFK issued EO 10988.

Meany's prescience is already manifesting it in those states that have been overly generous with the various benefits, especially retirement benefits, for the public employees. As an example CA's unfunded pension debt is approaching $1 trillion, or approx. $80,000/taxpayer. As the workforce is aging this debt is expected to increase in the coming years. The debt was accrued through collective bargaining. The politicians agreed to the benefits with the full knowledge that they would gain union support at the polling places and that they wouldn't be around to pay the piper when the debt came due. It was a 'win-win' for the political class.

Ultimately this is going to be seen at the Federal level as well because of the bloated bureaucracy that has been built up over the years.

Public employee unions are increasingly becoming the enemies of the taxpayer just as Meany predicted so many years ago.

I'm not anti-union. I'm anti state force and mandates. I'm anti graft and pull and bribery. If teachers want to be in a union, I say let them, but don't force it on anyone, and don't force anyone to pay for it. Bad teachers need to be fired. Bad administrators need to be let go. Teachers need to stop being over-paid so much and need to have their lifetime pensions cut way way back.

This really could happen if we got rid of public schools.

 

[LincolnDuncan]

The problem is the teacher's union donates huge amounts to political candidates. Once elected those officials are then lobbied by union reps to support added benefits and wage hikes for teachers in direct competition against the interests of the taxpayers who have to cough up the money to support both. The government wasn't established to represent the interests of itself.

This is the real reason that you started this thread.

 

[pecksniff]

I'm not anti-union. I'm anti state force and mandates. I'm anti graft and pull and bribery. If teachers want to be in a union, I say let them, but don't force it on anyone, and don't force anyone to pay for it.

The "right to work" approach has never led to anything good.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

I'm not anti-union. I'm anti state force and mandates. I'm anti graft and pull and bribery. If teachers want to be in a union, I say let them, but don't force it on anyone, and don't force anyone to pay for it. Bad teachers need to be fired. Bad administrators need to be let go. Teachers need to stop being over-paid so much and need to have their lifetime pensions cut way way back.

This really could happen if we got rid of public schools.

If teachers were really paid a "lavish" salary & were over paid, you should apply for one of the thousands of openings that schools just can't seem to fill.

"School superintendent asks: ‘Who would want to be a teacher right now?’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/09/27/pandemic-teacher-shortage-nationwide/


https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...ators-fleeing-classroom/8820454002/?gnt-cfr=1

 

[Counselor706]

The teachers unions roll over Biden

Like most pension scandals, PA teachers’ fund has a union problem

Teachers union head blasted for ‘lying’ about advocating for kids

Top CDC official steps down weeks after emails surface showing collusion with teachers union

Teachers union gave nearly $20 million to Dems before influencing CDC school reopening guidance

 

[bellisarius]

I'm not anti-union. I'm anti state force and mandates. I'm anti graft and pull and bribery. If teachers want to be in a union, I say let them, but don't force it on anyone, and don't force anyone to pay for it. Bad teachers need to be fired. Bad administrators need to be let go. Teachers need to stop being over-paid so much and need to have their lifetime pensions cut way way back.

This really could happen if we got rid of public schools.

Won't work Dixie. So some of the teachers forego the union dues. They still benefit from the collective bargaining. IF an overwhelming majority of the teachers left the union then the state would have more leverage, but the fact remains that it's in the political classes best interest to cave in to the union demands. I remind you that the political class still benefits at the ballot box without having to deal with the consequences. In effect it's in their best interest to just kick the can down the road.

You mention 'bad teachers.' Even those teachers that commit egregious acts are difficult to fire. However that's not the problem. It's the low mediocre teachers that are hard, damn near impossible, to get rid of. Their classroom performance is sub-standard but they keep their nose clean and toe the line. The students, and ultimately the taxpayer, suffer because of this. The unions steadfastly refuse to allow any performance based metric to be applied regarding advancement. This has two effects. The first being that the low mediocre's are protected and more than a few of the truly gifted new teachers are held back with many leaving the trade (I use the term 'trade' purposely here, true professionals don't join unions.) out of frustration and who can blame them?

And the teacher's unions are just the most visible today. The same dynamic is taking place within ALL of the public employee unions.

 

[mayfly13]

When I was growing up, being a (grade 5 to 12, not primary) teacher was a very prestigious, well paid profession.

And the entrance exams to Uni were quite tough too.
Standard of University, above nursing (which was considered in between Trade and College)

 

[IrezumiKiss]

He is a straight up troll. I can't think of a single insightful comment that he's made. Nothing he says contributes anything to the discussion.

You calling me names lets me know you acknowledge you lost the argument.

https://c.tenor.com/pqPYLjek7YIAAAAC/welcome-to-the-society-of-uncompromising-men-cheers.gif

brilliant riposte, my good sir.

 

[pecksniff]

Won't work Dixie. So some of the teachers forego the union dues. They still benefit from the collective bargaining. IF an overwhelming majority of the teachers left the union then the state would have more leverage, but the fact remains that it's in the political classes best interest to cave in to the union demands. I remind you that the political class still benefits at the ballot box without having to deal with the consequences. In effect it's in their best interest to just kick the can down the road.

There is no "political class." Career politicians, like teachers, are an occupational category, not a social class.

 

[Cubantripod]

Also if they're fully privatized there's no way of standardizing what the kids are being taught in those schools. How much will you guys on the right go ape shit over CRT then?

As it is, without a standard, private schools are still producing better educated students. That's in part because they don't worry about social justice programs like CRT. They still try to teach the pillars of a classic liberal education.

 

[Cubantripod]

We've gotten a largely literate population. If you want more, you have to match private schools' funding levels -- that's what works.

We keep doing that and it's not working. Private schools have higher standards and teach discipline that the public schools aren't teaching and aren't going to either.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

As it is, without a standard, private schools are still producing better educated students. That's in part because they don't worry about social justice programs like CRT. They still try to teach the pillars of a classic liberal education.

I’d love to see the data you’re basing that on.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

how about when you were asked for proof about your theory on blue state exodus? no word play just you floundering.

I linked the census data, which he ignored. That's SOP fir Sarge. Then he starts telling you what you supposedly said and you know you're going down the rabbit hole.

 

[bellisarius]

I linked the census data, which he ignored. That's SOP fir Sarge. Then he starts telling you what you supposedly said and you know you're going down the rabbit hole.

Got his number now do ya? LMAO

 

[Cubantripod]

I’d love to see the data you’re basing that on.

It's called having kids in private schools. Why do you think anyone that can afford private schools sends their kids to private schools? Why do you think we've seen a large number of parents move their kids to private schools. They're not sacrificing their kids education for social experiments.

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/09/920316481/enrollment-is-dropping-in-public-schools-around-the-country
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/07/dur...es-switch-to-private-school-from-public-.html

 

[bellisarius]

It's called having kids in private schools. Why do you think anyone that can afford private schools sends their kids to private schools? Why do you think we've seen a large number of parents move their kids to private schools. They're not sacrificing their kids education for social experiments.

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/09/920316481/enrollment-is-dropping-in-public-schools-around-the-country
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/07/dur...es-switch-to-private-school-from-public-.html

The off shoot of that is that the public schools are going to be bled dry of funding.

They can't go to the public and cry for higher taxes with enrollment dropping. It would be like GM crying that, "No one is buying our cars so we have to raise prices."

There is a down side though. As I pointed out before it's the best teachers that will be the first to go, those with the most tenure will remain.

What I'd like to see is for the parents of any particular district to form, for lack of a better term, 'school co-op's.' Totally cut out the public school system until it can reform itself. Perhaps some of those energetic teachers that have abandoned the trade can be enticed to try it a different way.