It's NOT ok.

[Netzach]

TLDR almost.

The only thing I disagree with with satin on, well two things, slightly. She's positively right, in the abstract.

I get into many an argument with M about how "things SHOULD work" versus how things actually work. People SHOULD be able to run around with no clothes in 80 degree weather, IMO. There's nothing wrong with this.

Except we have these kind of fucked up cultural contracts and baggage that say it's not OK, it's sexual, it's - whatever. It is legal for me to sun myself sans top in Central Park.

It is not a good idea. It would be nice to live in a world where it was, but we don't. I think as women, as people, we're charged with some awareness of reality as it stands. It's never that victim's FAULT, but it IS never a bad idea to play out the chain of probability in your head for your own safety.

And I also mean mental small-stuff safety - like when I put on the low cut, it's a day where I feel awesome about myself and I don't think that micro-harassment about the girls is going to fuck with me. I can also cover up more on days I can't handle that, because I know that it's less likely to happen. Right wrong or neither, it's just accepting reality as it stands.

Also, I actually agree with the idea that "once is an ask."

ONE comment, even a hamhanded gross ass one, is a less suave dude's "ask"
If I don't outwardly transmit "yes!" then it stops, or it's harassment.

I believe *not a lawyer, maybe a real one can chime in* that even from a legal standpoint, "persistent" is a criteria in the case of ambiguous stuff.

"Wow, that (low cut top) is awesome on you! (wink)"
"That actually makes me uncomfortable"
"Oh, sorry" *never happens again* = not harassment.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"Oh, sorry" *never happens again* = not harassment.

yes, that would be true. And sometimes a dude works that way. Sometimes, not.

 

[Netzach]

yes, that would be true. And sometimes a dude works that way. Sometimes, not.

Too often not, let's face it, but I think people deserve a chance at being a little socially weird or asking one another out.

I love the list. It would be great if it worked like that.

 

[midwestyankee]

Too often not, let's face it, but I think people deserve a chance at being a little socially weird or asking one another out.

I love the list. It would be great if it worked like that.

Agreed. For if not, I'd surely still be single some 40 years after college.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Too often not, let's face it, but I think people deserve a chance at being a little socially weird or asking one another out.

I love the list. It would be great if it worked like that.

That would be okay, if by "people" we meant women as well as men. But the reality is that men get to be the socially weird ones, and women are considered responsible for fielding the weirdnesses of men. Regardless of their own weirdnesses. being female doesn't always include social diplomacy skills.

The point of the list is that women are expected to take responsibility for not getting raped. The list will never be 100% true, but we can start demanding that men take some responsibility for their actions.

 

[Netzach]

That would be okay, if by "people" we meant women as well as men. But the reality is that men get to be the socially weird ones, and women are considered responsible for fielding the weirdnesses of men. Regardless of their own weirdnesses. being female doesn't always include social diplomacy skills.

I guess. I've had other women be really freaking weird with me in ways that have nothing to do with sex, but have made me more uncomforable than any guy. I've had conservo nutjob boss tell me that coworker with son born before her marriage "should have kept her legs closed" (I am illegitimate, she didn't know that, bitch) I've had women tell me they don't want the Jewish woman to wait on them, not realizing that I am one. I cna't even COUNT the number of "I don't have a problem with blacks BUT...." anecdotes I've been treated to - ALL WOMEN.

No one really has a total monopoly on creeper.

I agree that the person who shuts down and doesn't know what the fuck to say, should NOT be treated as "did nothing".

 

[Stella_Omega]

I guess. I've had other women be really freaking weird with me in ways that have nothing to do with sex, but have made me more uncomforable than any guy. I've had conservo nutjob boss tell me that coworker with son born before her marriage "should have kept her legs closed" (I am illegitimate, she didn't know that, bitch) I've had women tell me they don't want the Jewish woman to wait on them, not realizing that I am one.

No one really has a total monopoly on creeper.

And I have had men make me uncomfortable in ways that had nothing to do with sex-- ALSO in ways that were sexual.

I've never had a woman make me uncomfortable in non-sexual ways that ALSO made me worry about being raped.

 

[Netzach]

And I have had men make me uncomfortable in ways that had nothing to do with sex-- ALSO in ways that were sexual.

I've never had a woman make me uncomfortable in non-sexual ways that ALSO made me worry about being raped.

Absolutely.

But a lot of people manufacture discomfort based on body size, race, class, and a lot of things that have nothing to do with what someone actually said or meant.

"make me uncomfortable" once? And nothing happens? That's not something I'm comfortable punishing.

If a guy says "hi" to the right person with enough social anxiety, that's scary shit for them.

I think this has to be calibrated for averages at some point. "Hey I wanna rub my hands on your tits" crosses that line even one time.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Absolutely.

But a lot of people manufacture discomfort based on body size, race, class, and a lot of things that have nothing to do with what someone actually said or meant.

There's that Schrodinger's assailant thing again.

"make me uncomfortable" once? And nothing happens? That's not something I'm comfortable punishing.

"Make me uncomfortable once and nothing further happens" is good. But you don't know that nothing further will happen until it doesn't.

Nobody said anything about "punishing" anyone anyway, where did you get that from? But maybe teaching our society that "making someone uncomfortable because they are women and men like boobies" is not something that is so readily excused anymore. Dudes can grow the fuck up.

If a guy says "hi" to the right person with enough social anxiety, that's scary shit for them.

Uh, yeah. But that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about normal women, whose only social anxiety is of being accosted by some dude that is bigger, stronger, and has just said or done something that makes her feel as if she is now no longer safe.

I think this has to be calibrated for averages at some point. "Hey I wanna rub my hands on your tits" crosses that line even one time.

Indeed.

 

[satindesire]

Sweet Jesus! It is NOT ok that I just read this whole thread. Is there a full moon going on or what?


It is, however, totally ok that the following post is so smart and well written it makes my dick hard.

High Five For the Nice Guys!

In context that comment made sense. She spent a good five pages on another thread calling me a rapist for being a man who told her that she didn't have to live in fear because stranger rape is actually quite rare, and that as a society we should focus more on rapes that are more likely to occur, such as date-rape, domestic abuse, and child abuse. And apparently because I advocate for actual victims instead of kissing her ass when she tried to play the victim card it made me a rapist.

When she got laughed out of the thread she started it in, she apparently came here, because I did a vanity search for my name and found it here. I would be the LAST person in the world to be a rapist, because of how sex works for me- if I have to manipulate someone into it, then I won't get off. And the last person in the world to accuse of sexism, just because the concept is foreign to me- I don't even really have a gender to be able to have a sexist point from- not to say that you can't, but it's a strange accusation. I actually never brought up gender and used several different sexes/genders in my examples. She was obsessed with this strange idea that all men were rapists, and when she was called out on it by both men and women, she ran here. So I thought I'd pop in here, where she had blasted my name and clear that up. Even posting randomly on the internet that's not something one wants floating around.

I posted a link to the original thread. You've always been really intelligent Stella, and you helped me a lot when I was first discovering myself. You were the last person I would think would encourage her in behavior like that. That... kind of hurts.

More lies and bullshit. My words are there for the whole world to read, wherein I did not call you a rapist, I did not play a victim, and "that as a society we should focus more on rapes that are more likely to occur, such as date-rape, domestic abuse, and child abuse."...yeah no. I didn't advocate that either. You're still trying to paint me as the bad guy and make yourself out to be the innocent good guy in this, despite all the massive piles of evidence to the contrary. That's not going to fly. Sorry. And the posts here from Stella and DGE and Sir Winston and Netz are just more and more support for equal human rights.

Dude, look. I am very glad and proud of you that you know that most rapes happen with men that the victim knows, something that the police have a lot of trouble understanding. However. Although it's true that stranger rape is rarer than date rape and other forms of rape, it's still a legitimate fear for women.

Have you've ever heard of Schrodinger's cat? because of quantum uncertainty, we don't know if it's dead or alive until we open the box to see, and, in fact the act of opening the box decides whether it's dead or alive.

Well, women face Schrodinger's rapist. Because of uncertainties that women have no control over, every man we face is, potentially, a rapist. And the only way we find that out is if he rapes us or not.

You might not like that notion. You might think it's overreaction. Tough noogies. You do not get to decide which woman is a "real victim" and who isn't. I -- tough butch me-- am a victim too, every time I decide not to walk down a street because I might be raped. That's also victimhood, that entirely sensible fear takes away my freedom of choice.

SatinDesire doesn't always phrase things in the best ways. But sorry, although you might think she was laughed out of the thread, that doesn't mean her argument is wrong. it just means that some people decided to laugh, and she stopped worrying about their opinions.

Bingo.

 

[BiBunny]

I can honestly say that I have never looked at a man and wondered if he might rape me. So, no, "women" do not worry about that whole Schrodinger's rapist thing. Some women may. This one does not.

 

[satindesire]

I can honestly say that I have never looked at a man and wondered if he might rape me. So, no, "women" do not worry about that whole Schrodinger's rapist thing. Some women may. This one does not.

And that's fine. That's wonderful that you feel that confident. I think it bears mentioning that wondering about it is fine too, though.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I can honestly say that I have never looked at a man and wondered if he might rape me. So, no, "women" do not worry about that whole Schrodinger's rapist thing. Some women may. This one does not.

I can honestly say that I-- to my surprise and chagrin and feeling like a coward for it-- have.

 

[Red Sonja]

I can honestly say that I-- to my surprise and chagrin and feeling like a coward for it-- have.

You definitely shouldn't feel like a coward. It's reality. It sucks that my college freshman daughter has to throw perfectly good red solo cups at parties because it's too creepy to bring her drink to the bathroom with her, and too scary to leave it unattended.

Shrodinger's rapist or not... unfortunately some guys are rapists and some aren't. You are right... we can't know til we open the box.

I personally feel that rape is a hate crime. It's committed against women and is about power over women. That power also extends to every woman who tosses a red solo cup or asks the bartender to watch her drink, or doesn't take the shortcut home. In many ways, rape is about saying keep your head down, don't show more than an ankle... and stay in your place.

This is, in large part, the whole point of hate crimes. Crimes committed to achieve a particular result-- causing fear, and particular reactions in a community. The fact our society insists on conflating rape with sex -- just means that people fail to see rape for what it is.

 

[Ropebunny]

I can honestly say that I have never looked at a man and wondered if he might rape me. So, no, "women" do not worry about that whole Schrodinger's rapist thing. Some women may. This one does not.

I kinda agree with you. I've only been in one situation where my mind considered the possibility that the guys following me might rape me and I feel no shame in that as their words and actions were incredibly dodgy. But that's it, just once. I don't worry about it happening again and wonder if the next guy I meet will rape me.

While I know that technically, almost any adolescent or adult I encounter could rape me, I'm not going to look at someone and consider it without a compelling reason to do so.

And I have had men make me uncomfortable in ways that had nothing to do with sex-- ALSO in ways that were sexual.

I've never had a woman make me uncomfortable in non-sexual ways that ALSO made me worry about being raped.

I've also had men make me feel uncomfortable in both unsexual and sexual ways (albeit sexual only once).

I was also sexually assulted as a child by a group of same age females at a birthday party.

ANYONE has the possibility and power to harm you and it can happen in any situation. So I guess I feel pretty blasé attitude to it now. Rape is terrible,awful and should never happen, but so are a lot of other things and worrying about possible, future, negative events seems unproductive to me.

 

[satindesire]

I've also had men make me feel uncomfortable in both unsexual and sexual ways (albeit sexual only once).

I was also sexually assulted as a child by a group of same age females at a birthday party.

ANYONE has the possibility and power to harm you and it can happen in any situation. So I guess I feel pretty blasé attitude to it now. Rape is terrible,awful and should never happen, but so are a lot of other things and worrying about possible, future, negative events seems unproductive to me.

That's the thing, no one's advocating living in fear.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I kinda agree with you. I've only been in one situation where my mind considered the possibility that the guys following me might rape me and I feel no shame in that as their words and actions were incredibly dodgy. But that's it, just once. I don't worry about it happening again and wonder if the next guy I meet will rape me.

While I know that technically, almost any adolescent or adult I encounter could rape me, I'm not going to look at someone and consider it without a compelling reason to do so.

Hopefully, you won't refuse to consider it when there is a compelling reason to do so. Because that would be stupid.

I've also had men make me feel uncomfortable in both unsexual and sexual ways (albeit sexual only once).

I was also sexually assulted as a child by a group of same age females at a birthday party.

Which does not negate the fact that men are far more likely to do such a thing-- as adults.

ANYONE has the possibility and power to harm you and it can happen in any situation. So I guess I feel pretty blasé attitude to it now. Rape is terrible,awful and should never happen, but so are a lot of other things and worrying about possible, future, negative events seems unproductive to me.

You know what-- you are describing your attitude here. Which is certainly your attitude, and perhaps many other women have the same attitude, and perhaps some women don't.

But-- you are describing your attitude towards a situation that you agree exists.

That's the thing, no one's advocating living in fear.

This.

it's astonishing how much people read into simple statements, isn't it?

 

[BiBunny]

That's the thing, no one's advocating living in fear.

The way that a lot of the comments in the thread are worded sure makes it sound like someone is.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The way that a lot of the comments in the thread are worded sure makes it sound like someone is.

You're being mighty assumptive, kiddo.

 

[lovecraft68]

My sister was raped years ago. My wife works as a volunteer at a shelter for abused women.

I teach self defense classes to women who were victims of domestic violence and rape.

Sadly I am sure I have instilled an over abundance of paranoia in my daughters, but fact is its true, you never know. On that note both have had years of martial arts and I have bought both of them guns and taught them to shoot.

and preconceptions go a long way. To a woman in a bar or on the street I appear as someone who they might not want to wander down a dark street with. I'm a little wild looking, lot of tats and come across at times as fairly obnoxious.

In reality I'm only dangerous to men because I hate them for what they have done to some of the women in my life including the 15 year old foster child we took in several months ago who was a victim of sexual trafficking and was pimped as well as raped ( you know the situation, they write about it on the story side as if it were funny and sexy). I think I'm the only guy out there who secretly hoped both his daughters would grow up lesbians. Alas they are straight

In the end if you feel nervous and want to avoid someone, fucking do it. Do not feel like a victim or a coward. The ass you save will be your own.

 

[BiBunny]

You're being mighty assumptive, kiddo.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to condescend to me just because I have no desire to beat the "rape culture" drum along with you.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to condescend to me just because I have no desire to beat the "rape culture" drum along with you.

That's not why I'm condescending to you.

 

[BiBunny]

That's not why I'm condescending to you.

Oh, well, then that excuses it totally. By all means, please continue.

 

[satindesire]

The way that a lot of the comments in the thread are worded sure makes it sound like someone is.

Again, it's a problem of people being unable to have a happy medium in their lives. Why does it have to be so extreme all the time with everything?

This isn't a black and white situation, where women either have to pretend sexual assault doesn't exist or we all lock ourselves in our convents and live as terrified nuns.

There IS a middle ground.

You're being mighty assumptive, kiddo.

Exactly.

This is so confusing to me. Why does it have to be all or nothing with some folks? Can't we just accept that some people have different standards and boundaries and -be okay- with that?

I mean, we accept no less when it comes to our sexuality and our kinks and the way we dress and everything else. This is like the one last thing it's okay to look down on people on now?

Just because some people are concerned with it doesn't mean they live in fear.

Again, there is a middle ground. And no matter where people live on that scale, we don't have a right to act like they're doing something wrong by being on it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Woman talking about this fact, and saying this is not okay anymore =/= fear.

Speaking up is pretty much the fucking opposite of fear.