How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Tryharder62]

Lillith made her choice quite apparent, I'd say.
Good to see you fighting the good fight, best church lady ever!

Thank you....I think.
https://tenor.com/view/church-lady-shame-nono-gif-7638650

Hmm, maybe my understanding is off.

What did Adam and Eve get from eating the fruit? I thought it was the knowledge of good and evil?

If it was, then how could they possibly know that to disobey was wrong? They were innocents, by which I mean as unto children who literally had no sense of right and wrong. Even mortal laws accept that children who are not capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong should not be held to an adult standard.

Your god not only punished these innocents for failing to stick to rules that they had no way of understanding were rules, but also punished (depending on whether you are a YEC or not) at least 6000 years worth of other people for the crime that their distant ancestors committed.

Even though he claims to have forgiven us. *checks* Nope, Christian children are still getting punsihed by god, even 2000 years after the so called sacrifice (ha!) that was supposed to be about forgiving us.

Aww, nobody ever gave me a rose before.

I think people would rather blame God than admit what they did had consequences that hurt someone who didn't deserve to be hurt.

You deserve roses

 

[phrodeau]

Run, kids! She's almost got you!

 

[runsilent]

If you are a monotheist (you believe in the only one true god) you are an atheist to any that have another god. Those that chose to believe in only one you are an atheist.

 

[Led_Astray]

I think people would rather blame God than admit what they did had consequences that hurt someone who didn't deserve to be hurt.

Not me, or any other atheist. Can't blame somebody for whom there is no reliable evidence of existence for doing something that there is no reliable evidence ever happened.

Just trying to point out that the god you worship cheerfully punishes innocent children for the crimes of others (who had no way of knowing they were committing a crime), even after supposedly forgiving them.

I don't see that as a being worthy of worship, even if he exists.

You deserve roses

*blush*

 

[Tryharder62]

If you are a monotheist (you believe in the only one true god) you are an atheist to any that have another god. Those that chose to believe in only one you are an atheist.

I don't quite believe that. Isn't an atheist someone who doesn't believe in the existence of God at all? See Led_Away's post quoted below!

Led_Astray;89731260]Not me, or any other atheist. Can't blame somebody for whom there is no reliable evidence of existence for doing something that there is no reliable evidence ever happened.

Just trying to point out that the god you worship cheerfully punishes innocent children for the crimes of others (who had no way of knowing they were committing a crime), even after supposedly forgiving them.

I don't see that as a being worthy of worship, even if he exists.

You are right there is no scientific evidence that God exists. Just as there is no scientific evidence that George Washington crossed the Delaware and that 9/11 really happened. There is no scientific evidence that the Holocaust happened. In fact, as we get farther and farther from the event some people are now saying it didn't happen, even though we have historical evidence. I had the opportunity to tour Dachau. I have never had a feeling like I did when I walked through that place. Visitors immediately became silent on entering.

What I am trying to point out is that God is not cheerfully punishing innocent children for the crimes of others. He is however, at this time, not intervening in the consequences brought on by others. The good news is that justice will be done. (Not to give away the ending but Jesus is coming back).

 

[phrodeau]

Christopher Hitchens liked to make the point that humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years, and in all that time until about seven thousand years ago, God looked on with indifference. It was only within Biblical times that God had any interest in the doings of humans.

Well, it's been nearly two thousand years since God gave us any written input. Maybe He's lost interest again.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

To be honest I don't know how you are getting this from what I said?


You seem to blame Adam and Eve, to say that they were at fault, assuming that they existed (which I personally doubt), but then you say, as do most Christians, that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil. If they had no such knowledge, how could it be sinful or wrong to do something that they didn't know was wrong in the first place? In other words, if they were innocent and unaware that their actions were "sin," how could they actually be sinful?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Christopher Hitchens liked to make the point that humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years, and in all that time until about seven thousand years ago, God looked on with indifference. It was only within Biblical times that God had any interest in the doings of humans.

Well, it's been nearly two thousand years since God gave us any written input. Maybe He's lost interest again.

Not sure why, though. We humans have such an interesting history, in a train wreck sort of way.

 

[RocketLauncher]

Thank you....I think.
https://tenor.com/view/church-lady-shame-nono-gif-7638650

Good Lord! Nothing like that at all.
I'll rephrase that...my favourite Christian.

 

[Led_Astray]

I don't quite believe that. Isn't an atheist someone who doesn't believe in the existence of God at all? See Led_Away).

Its a fairly common way of trying to explain atheism to the devout, though.

There are 1000s of gods in the history of mankind. You find it impossible to believe that 99.9% of them exist.

Atheists are exactly like that, except they also find it impossible to believe in just one more god than you.

There is, quite literally (as I have tried to get you to realise, many times in this thread) absolutely nothing concrete you can point to about one particular god to set it apart from the other gods humanity has worshiped or is still worshipping. Not one fact, feeling, miracle, revelation or prophet that sets your chosen god apart from any of the others.

You don't accept Appollo and Zeus as genuine. Nor Thor and Odin. Or Shiva and Ganesha. Can you articulate why? There are temples to them, statues, holy writings, descriptions of their incredible deeds and yet you write them all off as mere legends. Mere stories, created by primitive people to explain the things they could not, like thunder and lightning, or disease and death.

If you can be honestly introspective and set out in words why you are able, without difficulty, to set aside the possibility that any of those other deities exist - then you might have an inkling of why atheists feel the same way about your god.

 

[Led_Astray]

You are right there is no scientific evidence that God exists. Just as there is no scientific evidence that George Washington crossed the Delaware and that 9/11 really happened. There is no scientific evidence that the Holocaust happened. In fact, as we get farther and farther from the event some people are now saying it didn't happen, even though we have historical evidence.

Woah, what now? Even if we take at face value your inaccurate statement about a lack of scientific evidence of the things you mention, I'm happy to accept historical evidence of things happening, as long as those things are bourne out by what we know from other sources about that time.

Many different historical accounts tell who was doing what during the American Revolutionary war. We have accounts from people on both sides, we have a knowledge of the technology available and the validity of certain tactics and manouvres. We can trace the results of given actions across several different accounts, from field reports, news stories, private diaries, even down to invoices and shipping notes for bullets, beans and bandages bought for the battles.

Ditto the holocaust. Ditto 9/11. Individual sources can be cross-checked, corroborated, compared. Biases and points of view can be taken into account, reliability of witnesses can be considered (If 1 person says it was a flying saucer, and 99 say it was a plane, we can probably eliminate Space Aliens from our enquiries).

But the stories in the bible are simply not corroborated by historical data. The romans kept official records, individual romans kept diaries and wrote letters (to the extent that we know legionaries stationed in Britain circa AD40 were writing home and asking for warm socks), the Egyptians wrote down almost everything that happened, the Greeks loved to write...

And yet not one single contemporary record correlates anything said in the bible. Outside of that one book, there is no record of a tax census that required people to return to their home villages. No record of a strange star in the sky. No record of people coming back to life. No records of a man named Jesus or even of a town called Nazareth.

There is a mention of "Chrestianos"(translation: "useful ones") in Tacitus's Annals, around 20-30 years after the Crucifixion. There is a passage in Josephus written around 93 AD that states that "Jesus the Messiah was a wise teacher " but its pretty widely regarded to have been "clarified" by Christian interpolators over the years so we don't know exactly what Josephus had to say.

But there is very little else. We literally have more historical evidence for Boudicca, queen of the Iceni tribe who burned the roman capital of Britain, than we do about Jesus, and she lived at pretty much the same time.

So, please don't try to conflate the stories in the bible with the other events you describe. The other events can be reliably confirmed as matters of historical record. The events described in the bible? No. not even close.

 

[ishtat]

Ever considered that the only one in the Genesis "Fall" myth who told the truth was the serpent.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ever considered that the only one in the Genesis "Fall" myth who told the truth was the serpent.

No the serpent lied. He said "Thou shalt not surely die".

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Ever considered that the only one in the Genesis "Fall" myth who told the truth was the serpent.

Exactly, because they didn't die the day that they ate of it, did they?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Woah, what now? Even if we take at face value your inaccurate statement about a lack of scientific evidence of the things you mention, I'm happy to accept historical evidence of things happening, as long as those things are bourne out by what we know from other sources about that time.

Many different historical accounts tell who was doing what during the American Revolutionary war. We have accounts from people on both sides, we have a knowledge of the technology available and the validity of certain tactics and manouvres. We can trace the results of given actions across several different accounts, from field reports, news stories, private diaries, even down to invoices and shipping notes for bullets, beans and bandages bought for the battles.

Ditto the holocaust. Ditto 9/11. Individual sources can be cross-checked, corroborated, compared. Biases and points of view can be taken into account, reliability of witnesses can be considered (If 1 person says it was a flying saucer, and 99 say it was a plane, we can probably eliminate Space Aliens from our enquiries).

But the stories in the bible are simply not corroborated by historical data. The romans kept official records, individual romans kept diaries and wrote letters (to the extent that we know legionaries stationed in Britain circa AD40 were writing home and asking for warm socks), the Egyptians wrote down almost everything that happened, the Greeks loved to write...

And yet not one single contemporary record correlates anything said in the bible. Outside of that one book, there is no record of a tax census that required people to return to their home villages. No record of a strange star in the sky. No record of people coming back to life. No records of a man named Jesus or even of a town called Nazareth.

There is a mention of "Chrestianos"(translation: "useful ones") in Tacitus's Annals, around 20-30 years after the Crucifixion. There is a passage in Josephus written around 93 AD that states that "Jesus the Messiah was a wise teacher " but its pretty widely regarded to have been "clarified" by Christian interpolators over the years so we don't know exactly what Josephus had to say.

But there is very little else. We literally have more historical evidence for Boudicca, queen of the Iceni tribe who burned the roman capital of Britain, than we do about Jesus, and she lived at pretty much the same time.

So, please don't try to conflate the stories in the bible with the other events you describe. The other events can be reliably confirmed as matters of historical record. The events described in the bible? No. not even close.

A necessary distinction, yes. Secular history is something that has been tested, corroborated, verified, authenticated, and when necessary, adjusted as new data or records give a clearer picture than we previously had. Despite what Josh McDowell maintained in his Evidence That Demands A Verdict, there is literally no rational, empirical basis to assert, believe, or stipulate that the so-called Gospels have any confirmation, corroboration, or basis in historical fact. There are simply not reliable as authoritative works of history, not even slightly.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Would you even want to go to a place eternally? I wouldn't. Death is what gives life its meaning.



Lieutenant Tuvok: What is the purpose of the road?

Quinn: The road... takes us to the rest of the universe, then it leads back here. An endless circle.

Captain Kathryn Janeway: This was your existence before your confinement?

Quinn: I traveled the road many times, sat on the porch, played the games, been the dog, everything. I was even the scarecrow for a while.

Captain Kathryn Janeway: Why?

Quinn: Because I hadn't done it.

Star Trek: Voyager (TV Series)
Death Wish (1996)

 

[phrodeau]

Would you even want to go to a place eternally? I wouldn't. Death is what gives life its meaning.



Lieutenant Tuvok: What is the purpose of the road?

Quinn: The road... takes us to the rest of the universe, then it leads back here. An endless circle.

Captain Kathryn Janeway: This was your existence before your confinement?

Quinn: I traveled the road many times, sat on the porch, played the games, been the dog, everything. I was even the scarecrow for a while.

Captain Kathryn Janeway: Why?

Quinn: Because I hadn't done it.

Star Trek: Voyager (TV Series)
Death Wish (1996)

Humans will continue to evolve after we leave the earth, and if religion lasts long enough, those in Heaven will see it fill up with beings no longer human. Eventually, those beings will see Heaven fill up with beings unlike them, too. A soul's experience in Heaven would by necessity be confined to the company of other humans, which would be a finite number. Eventually, every human soul would be intimately familiar with every other one, with no further opportunity but boredom.

 

[Tryharder62]

You seem to blame Adam and Eve, to say that they were at fault, assuming that they existed (which I personally doubt), but then you say, as do most Christians, that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil. If they had no such knowledge, how could it be sinful or wrong to do something that they didn't know was wrong in the first place? In other words, if they were innocent and unaware that their actions were "sin," how could they actually be sinful?

I tried to explain, but I must not have come across well. Here is my last thought besides what I have already written. I spent a lot of time with my mother when I was really young. I didn't understand everything about the world but I had a relationship with my mother and I trusted her. If she told me to do something, I did it. If she told me not to do something I didn't do it. Of course I grew up. I just think that Adam and Eve knew good because they were living it. They were in fellowship with God without many distractions. They knew who he was. What he had created. If he said don't do this one thing or you will surely die.... Well.... I think it is a good bet that they should not have done it. (By the way he didn't say you will die this instant.) Just an aside about my mother. If she is in heaven, which I think she is, she is definitely trying to tell God how things should be done.

Atheists are exactly like that, except they also find it impossible to believe in just one more god than you.

If you can be honestly introspective and set out in words why you are able, without difficulty, to set aside the possibility that any of those other deities exist - then you might have an inkling of why atheists feel the same way about your god.

First of all, I enjoyed your posts. I have read them several times and will probably need to do that several more times to absorb everything. I just quoted this section to conserve space but have considered all of your explanations and descriptions.

I will see if I can explain as clear as you did my beliefs. I believe that Jesus was a real human. After his death on the cross there wasn't question that he had lived, just disagreements on the resurrection and if he was the Messiah. If you look at all the information about other religions you can see that several have an opinion on who Jesus really was. They don't dispute that he lived, just who he really is. I put this from Wiki on as a starting point but if you look at percentages of religions and look at this topic- a majority of faiths have perspectives on this man named Jesus, it is very interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_perspectives_on_Jesus

To me it is common knowledge that there was a man named Jesus. I know that there are other ways to track calendar time but for most today is September 12, 2018 AD. Keeping Time: The Origin of B.C. & A.D. ... "A.D." stands for anno domini, Latin for “in the year of the lord,” and refers specifically of Jesus Christ. "B.C." stands for "before Christ. I think there is enough evidence that he lived. I really do.

Then what does a person do with that information? Continue to study...but if it leads you to the point that you believe he is the one and only true God that obviously means there in no other. I don't worship a God that common knowledge shows is a myth.

Humans will continue to evolve after we leave the earth, and if religion lasts long enough, those in Heaven will see it fill up with beings no longer human. Eventually, those beings will see Heaven fill up with beings unlike them, too. A soul's experience in Heaven would by necessity be confined to the company of other humans, which would be a finite number. Eventually, every human soul would be intimately familiar with every other one, with no further opportunity but boredom.

I think you have changed over the long time we have talked in these threads. I had thought you didn't believe in an after life. This is interesting. I can see why you would believe this. The question is do you have evidence like is required of me for your belief?

Good Lord! Nothing like that at all.
I'll rephrase that...my favourite Christian.

I had a really bad day at work yesterday. Thanks for making me smile when I read this.

 

[Tryharder62]

Would you even want to go to a place eternally? I wouldn't. Death is what gives life its meaning.

I think about this question. LOL. In Christian circles it is often said it will be so great we will spend eternity worshiping God and singing his praises all the time. In my humanness I think....wow sometimes I get distracted at church in an hour. eek Should I be praying for a better attention span????

 

[phrodeau]

(edited)

I think you have changed over the long time we have talked in these threads. I had thought you didn't believe in an after life. This is interesting. I can see why you would believe this. The question is do you have evidence like is required of me for your belief?

If you don't accept the scientific basis of proof for the Holocaust or that Washington crossed the Delaware, there's no hope of you accepting scientific evidence for evolution.

 

[RocketLauncher]

I had a really bad day at work yesterday. Thanks for making me smile when I read this.

Knowing I made you smile makes me happy. I adore your faith and warmth of personality.

 

[Led_Astray]

I know that there are other ways to track calendar time but for most today is September 12, 2018 AD. Keeping Time: The Origin of B.C. & A.D. ... "A.D." stands for anno domini, Latin for “in the year of the lord,” and refers specifically of Jesus Christ. "B.C." stands for "before Christ.

I wondered if that was going to come up. But if the fact we use BC and AD can be taken as evidence that Jesus was real, can we not also take the fact that today is Woden's day as evidence that Woden was real?

And of course Tiw, Thor', Freya and Saturn...

*****

I think there is enough evidence that he lived. I really do.

Where though? Jesus may well be mentioned in religions that post date Christianity, but James Bond is mentioned in stories that post date Ian Fleming's death, it doesn't stop him from being fictional.

I mean, if you are trying to attract followers to your new religion from amongst Christians, of course you are going to acknowledge stuff from the Bible. You can hardly claim to be the spiritual successor of Christianity if you deny the main tenets of that faith...

Or, to put it another way... the Bible mentions all of the important figures and events of the Jewish faith, but that doesn't stop Christians from declaring Judaism wrong.

I think its that hypocrisy in their treatment of other faiths that most galls me about Christianity.

Angel comes and talks to a woman to say she will bear gods child? Totally believable.

Angel comes to talk to holy man in a cave and deliver new instructions from god? Clearly made up.

God takes man up to heaven and returns him 3 days later (temporarily) to prove his holiness? Yup, we utterly believe that.

God takes man up to heaven and returns him 3 days later to set out a new way of following him? No, utterly impossible. Fake news!

 

[Tryharder62]

If you don't accept the scientific basis of proof for the Holocaust or that Washington crossed the Delaware, there's no hope of you accepting scientific evidence for evolution.

That is just the thing. You can't use the scientific method on a historical event because you can't reproduce identical conditions and find a repeatable conclusion.

I am a big believer in adaptation but once evolution goes into declaring something a new species, that is where I don't buy it. There is no fixed set of criteria that across the board defines when something has become a new species. Right now they observe the changes and just decide at some point that it is a new species. The big example of evolution is the evolution of a bacteria. It evolves into a new species scientists say.... No...... It is still a bacteria. It adapted.

I do believe that the Holocaust et al. happened because of historical evidence and eye witness testimony. That is why I believe in Jesus.

 

[Tryharder62]

I wondered if that was going to come up. But if the fact we use BC and AD can be taken as evidence that Jesus was real, can we not also take the fact that today is Woden's day as evidence that Woden was real?

And of course Tiw, Thor', Freya and Saturn...

As far as I am aware in Norse mythology none of the Gods ever claimed to be human. They were and remain Gods. Unlike the Greek deities there are not many stories of their interaction with human beings. Maybe you have some good references in this area?

Where though? Jesus may well be mentioned in religions that post date Christianity, but James Bond is mentioned in stories that post date Ian Fleming's death, it doesn't stop him from being fictional.

I mean, if you are trying to attract followers to your new religion from amongst Christians, of course you are going to acknowledge stuff from the Bible. You can hardly claim to be the spiritual successor of Christianity if you deny the main tenets of that faith...

Or, to put it another way... the Bible mentions all of the important figures and events of the Jewish faith, but that doesn't stop Christians from declaring Judaism wrong.

I think its that hypocrisy in their treatment of other faiths that most galls me about Christianity.

Angel comes and talks to a woman to say she will bear gods child? Totally believable.

Angel comes to talk to holy man in a cave and deliver new instructions from god? Clearly made up.

God takes man up to heaven and returns him 3 days later (temporarily) to prove his holiness? Yup, we utterly believe that.

God takes man up to heaven and returns him 3 days later to set out a new way of following him? No, utterly impossible. Fake news!

I understand what you are saying in the first several paragraphs.

The underlined portion of what you said is what touched me most. A majority of people I have talked aren't so upset about Christianity but they have been hurt by Christ followers. One of the stories that is behind how I try to live my faith happened even before I decided to follow Jesus. My mother had a set of hair dressers that were male and homosexual. Wonderful Guys. I use to go there too. One of the guys had cancer and was dying and they could not find a pastor that would talk to them. Please believe me that is not Christianity. Christ would have met them with open arms.

I don't look at it as right or wrong just different. Believe me though, I find it so amazing that I would love to have others experience the faith like I do.

I will never be able to 100% prove my faith. Why? Because at some point you have to have faith. Those examples you gave as being fake news I look at and see miraculous news.

We all have to decide how we are going to make this journey of life.

Whatever your beliefs, think, pray, send me good vibes this weekend. It is my son's senior homecoming. I found out I am the oldest mother(52) with several younger. They have decided that the senior mothers of the football players are going to perform a dance at the half-time of the pep rally/bonfire. HaHaHaHa. I have no coordination, but oh what you do for your kids. LOL. Please...can I please not make an idiot of myself.

 

[phrodeau]

That is just the thing. You can't use the scientific method on a historical event because you can't reproduce identical conditions and find a repeatable conclusion.

I am a big believer in adaptation but once evolution goes into declaring something a new species, that is where I don't buy it. There is no fixed set of criteria that across the board defines when something has become a new species. Right now they observe the changes and just decide at some point that it is a new species. The big example of evolution is the evolution of a bacteria. It evolves into a new species scientists say.... No...... It is still a bacteria. It adapted.

I do believe that the Holocaust et al. happened because of historical evidence and eye witness testimony. That is why I believe in Jesus.

Taxonomy started as an 18th century attempt to classify life forms based on their characteristics, and began well before evolution was understood. The concept of species has changed and is still not definite. Charles Darwin wrote, "I look at the term species as one arbitrarily given for the sake of convenience to a set of individuals closely resembling each other."

A common belief is that different species cannot interbreed. Lions and tigers are two different species by all accounts, but they are able to freely interbreed. There are ligers and tigons, as well as liligers, litigons and titigons. The only reason that they are rare is that lion and tiger habitats don't intersect.

Now imagine the 600-year-old Noah trying to keep the lions and tigers in his charge from interbreeding.