How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[beew]

ANCIENT CHURCH FOUND HIDDEN IN LAKE

https://www.wnd.com/2018/09/ancient-church-found-hidden-in-lake/

Interesting stuff.

Turkey's Christian population used to be 25% prior to the Armenian, Greek and Assirian genocides.
Now it's 2% and dwindling even further through conversions driven by fear or wish for social advantage.
Given Erdogan's revival of neo-Ottomanism in his internal and foreign politics.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Turkey
http://bostonreview.net/politics/m-hakan-yavuz-erdogan-ottomanophilia

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

Stephen Fry on the Christian god.....priceless.

 

[beew]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

Stephen Fry on the Christian god.....priceless.

He's referring to people who have a victorian-hollier than though or bastardised approach to faith.
But most practitioners are focused on the meaning-making and hope side. Only faith allowed people like Frankl or Solzhenitsyn to survive concentration camps. It's also a symbol of one's national identity and traditions and culture.

 

[beew]

I think that Religion can be both malignant and helpful, depending on how Powerholders approach it.

My understanding is that in certain Red States, Republican politics and puritanism have infiltrated those institutions, and Religion is often used as an instrument of social control.

But in other cases, Faith helps the individual be independent.
Otherwise, they become mentally dependent on the State or other authorities, or easily unsettled by the vicissitude of daily living. Soviets, communists and neo nazis saw Religion (regardless of type of faith) as enemy no.1

 

[phrodeau]

I think that Religion can be both malignant and helpful, depending on how Powerholders approach it.

My understanding is that in certain Red States, Republican politics and puritanism have infiltrated those institutions, and Religion is often used as an instrument of social control.

But in other cases, Faith helps the individual be independent.
Otherwise, they become mentally dependent on the State or other authorities, or easily unsettled by the vicissitude of daily living. Soviets, communists and neo nazis saw Religion (regardless of type of faith) as enemy no.1

Religions and governments were the same thing for centuries.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Religions and governments were the same thing for centuries.

Certainly in the Papal States.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Did they teach the story of Noah there?

I don't know. Why don't you ask them?

 

[phrodeau]

I don't know. Why don't you ask them?

OK. When are they scheduled for resurrection?

 

[beew]

Religions and governments were the same thing for centuries.

Yes, one can say that about Islam or your side of Christianity.

But not about Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

 

[phrodeau]

Yes, one can say that about Islam or your side of Christianity.

But not about Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

I referred to the old establishment religions, not such modern upstart sects.

 

[beew]

I referred to the old establishment religions, not such modern upstart sects.

True, indeed.

 

[beew]

I was also thinking:

There's a lot of push back against the oppressive institutional part of Religion, from the side of Liberals. Morality is on their side on this one.

But not when it comes to their attitude regarding Faith.
If you try to take away people's faith, you need to replace it with another source of meaning or support. It's even important now, given that we all live in such a disconnected and consumeristic society.

 

[Tryharder62]

Funny, but there's nothing at all like that in my Bible. Only one non-human species was affected by God's curse; hardly enough to throw the environment out of balance.

I don't agree. In Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." They didn't eat them they had dominion over them.

Genesis 1:30 reports on what God originally wanted people etc. to eat.
And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

It is in Paul's writings we get the answer not Genesis

Romans 5:12 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Corithians 15:21 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

We were suppose to eat plants. Our sin changed that and brought death. That is why I think there was adaptation and why now we have parasites that eat children's brains. It is our choices.

I do say that environmentalists who are trying to save endangered species would argue that even if it was only one non-human species it can change the environment. Remember the bees

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

OK. When are they scheduled for resurrection?

...Who?

 

[phrodeau]

I don't agree. In Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." They didn't eat them they had dominion over them.

Genesis 1:30 reports on what God originally wanted people etc. to eat.
And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

It is in Paul's writings we get the answer not Genesis

Romans 5:12 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Corithians 15:21 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

We were suppose to eat plants. Our sin changed that and brought death. That is why I think there was adaptation and why now we have parasites that eat children's brains. It is our choices.

I do say that environmentalists who are trying to save endangered species would argue that even if it was only one non-human species it can change the environment. Remember the bees

The Bible doesn't say that fish were supposed to be vegetarians. Why weren't they listed? Are fish lacking the breath of life, is that it? What about the dolphins and whales? They breathe, so were they expected to survive on green plants?

And if Jesus died for Adam's sin, shouldn't all the beasts, birds and fish have their immortality restored too? That's what 1 Corinthians 15:22 means, by your interpretation. How do they attain Heaven, if they have to declare a belief in Jesus first? Will all the creatures with the breath of life be consigned to Hell for eternity? Are there armies of Christians ministering to animals, baptizing them and teaching them catechisms?

It was Paul writing in Romans, who said that sinning is not the fault of a person, but some parasitic idea within that causes sins to happen (Romans 7:16-20). Why is everything Adam's fault then?

 

[Led_Astray]

Hey, wow, we are still going? OK!

We were suppose to eat plants. Our sin changed that and brought death. That is why I think there was adaptation and why now we have parasites that eat children's brains. It is our choices.

Our sin?

You mean Adam and Eve's sin, I assume?

You know, the sin they commited whilst actually having no idea what right or wrong were.

Two innocent children (and before eating the fruit, yes, they were in effect children) who didn't understand what they were doing, are talked into doing something wrong.

And because of this, children ever since that day face have been having eggs laid in their eyeballs that hatch into worms that eat their eyes.

And this seems like a reasonably response to you? This is the action of a "Just God"?

 

[Tryharder62]

The Bible doesn't say that fish were supposed to be vegetarians. Why weren't they listed? Are fish lacking the breath of life, is that it? What about the dolphins and whales? They breathe, so were they expected to survive on green plants?

And if Jesus died for Adam's sin, shouldn't all the beasts, birds and fish have their immortality restored too? That's what 1 Corinthians 15:22 means, by your interpretation. How do they attain Heaven, if they have to declare a belief in Jesus first? Will all the creatures with the breath of life be consigned to Hell for eternity? Are there armies of Christians ministering to animals, baptizing them and teaching them catechisms?

It was Paul writing in Romans, who said that sinning is not the fault of a person, but some parasitic idea within that causes sins to happen (Romans 7:16-20). Why is everything Adam's fault then?

I believe so. Everything that had life and breath in it pretty much means......well......EVERYTHING that has life and breath in it.

The primary difference between human beings and animals is that humanity is made in the image and likeness of God, while animals are not. Being made in the image and likeness of God means that human beings are like God, capable of spirituality, with mind, emotion, and will, and they have a part of their being that continues . If I were God this would be heaven, though.

https://youtu.be/Vhm0sCGnthw

Sin is the deal to your Romans 7: 16-20. Adam brought sin into the perfect world. Now we all get to wrestle with it. If I were God I wouldn't have put a tree with the knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden. But then we'd all be walking around with no clothes on and I'm just not sure that's a good idea. LOL

 

[Tryharder62]

Hey, wow, we are still going? OK!



Our sin?

You mean Adam and Eve's sin, I assume?

You know, the sin they commited whilst actually having no idea what right or wrong were.

Two innocent children (and before eating the fruit, yes, they were in effect children) who didn't understand what they were doing, are talked into doing something wrong.

And because of this, children ever since that day face have been having eggs laid in their eyeballs that hatch into worms that eat their eyes.

And this seems like a reasonably response to you? This is the action of a "Just God"?

Whether you decide to call him just or not, that's up to you. Adam and Eve were up to the choice. They were in fellowship one on one with God. They just chose wrong. That's the thing with having a choice. Is it more just to make us have to do exactly what he wants, when he wants it, the way he wants it? I don't want to live like that.

What people don't like is that their bad choices can cause innocent people to suffer. They don't look at themselves and say it was our fault. They want to blame God. I don't blame him for letting us have a choice.

Yep we are still going. Good to see you back!

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Whether you decide to call him just or not, that's up to you. Adam and Eve were up to the choice. They were in fellowship one on one with God. They just chose wrong. That's the thing with having a choice. Is it more just to make us have to do exactly what he wants, when he wants it, the way he wants it? I don't want to live like that.

What people don't like is that their bad choices can cause innocent people to suffer. They don't look at themselves and say it was our fault. They want to blame God. I don't blame him for letting us have a choice.

Yep we are still going. Good to see you back!

You seem to want to have it both ways, to have children......and Adam and Eve both be innocent and not innocent. If they were true innocents, they could not have been responsible for their choices, being unaware of that it was wrong. In which case, the writer, and subsequent writers, were wrong to blame them. If they weren't, then the writer lied about them, didn't they?

Either way, the writer(s) of Genesis lied, didn't they? In which case, the foundational book of the Abrahamic religions was false, and the doctrine of original sin and the Fall of Man fall apart.

 

[RocketLauncher]

Quickly approaching 5000 posts. Will this thread be resurrected?

 

[phrodeau]

Whether you decide to call him just or not, that's up to you. Adam and Eve were up to the choice. They were in fellowship one on one with God. They just chose wrong. That's the thing with having a choice. Is it more just to make us have to do exactly what he wants, when he wants it, the way he wants it? I don't want to live like that.

What people don't like is that their bad choices can cause innocent people to suffer. They don't look at themselves and say it was our fault. They want to blame God. I don't blame him for letting us have a choice.

Yep we are still going. Good to see you back!

Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So if Adam did what he didn't want to do because of sin, it wasn't Adam's fault,

 

[RocketLauncher]

Whether you decide to call him just or not, that's up to you. Adam and Eve were up to the choice. They were in fellowship one on one with God. They just chose wrong. That's the thing with having a choice. Is it more just to make us have to do exactly what he wants, when he wants it, the way he wants it? I don't want to live like that.

What people don't like is that their bad choices can cause innocent people to suffer. They don't look at themselves and say it was our fault. They want to blame God. I don't blame him for letting us have a choice.

Yep we are still going. Good to see you back!

Lillith made her choice quite apparent, I'd say.
Good to see you fighting the good fight, best church lady ever!

 

[Led_Astray]

Adam and Eve were up to the choice.

Hmm, maybe my understanding is off.

What did Adam and Eve get from eating the fruit? I thought it was the knowledge of good and evil?

If it was, then how could they possibly know that to disobey was wrong? They were innocents, by which I mean as unto children who literally had no sense of right and wrong. Even mortal laws accept that children who are not capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong should not be held to an adult standard.

Your god not only punished these innocents for failing to stick to rules that they had no way of understanding were rules, but also punished (depending on whether you are a YEC or not) at least 6000 years worth of other people for the crime that their distant ancestors committed.

Even though he claims to have forgiven us. *checks* Nope, Christian children are still getting punsihed by god, even 2000 years after the so called sacrifice (ha!) that was supposed to be about forgiving us.

Yep we are still going. Good to see you back!

Aww, nobody ever gave me a rose before.

 

[RocketLauncher]

Aww, nobody ever gave me a rose before.

In the spirit of good faith and Xtianity let me correct this oversight. ...crown of thorns with said roses is your's for a small fee.

 

[Tryharder62]

You seem to want to have it both ways, to have children......and Adam and Eve both be innocent and not innocent. If they were true innocents, they could not have been responsible for their choices, being unaware of that it was wrong. In which case, the writer, and subsequent writers, were wrong to blame them. If they weren't, then the writer lied about them, didn't they?

Either way, the writer(s) of Genesis lied, didn't they? In which case, the foundational book of the Abrahamic religions was false, and the doctrine of original sin and the Fall of Man fall apart.

To be honest I don't know how you are getting this from what I said?

Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So if Adam did what he didn't want to do because of sin, it wasn't Adam's fault,

This was a verse from Paul. I think he is saying once you sin, sin kind of takes over. For example a food addict that starts a binge and can't stop even when they want to.

Don't let sin in (Like Adam did) Your choice!