How do you change someone's mind?

[Phelia]

I mean it in a broader human way, not liberal vs conservative. It's an essential question of politics, sure, but what about convincing a friend or loved one to abandon a relationship or behavior they're deeply attached to? Or that a joke is funny?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, partially because duh, but also after watching a TED talk by Megan Phelps-Roper, daughter of Fred Phelps.

I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left.

It is twelve minutes long and very worth watching. I think what she describes is true, but I want to ask her, "would it have worked on your father? If not, what would have?"

How do you change a mind when seeing evidence to the contrary only strengthens misconceptions? Is it even possible, or is the process entirely internal, the product of circumstance?

ETA: Please scroll past the trolls. They'll get a diaper change and settle down soon enough.

 

[Ms_Ann]

Torture works.

 

[KingOrfeo]

The possibility of changing someone's mind about something mostly depends on how much they want to believe what they believe now and how deeply they are emotionally invested in it.

 

[Ms_Ann]

There's also brainwashing.

 

[Ms_Ann]

Indoctrination.

 

[Phelia]

The possibility of changing someone's mind about something mostly depends on how much they want to believe what they believe now and how deeply they are emotionally invested in it.

That is not what I asked.

 

[Ms_Ann]

Kidnap a family member.

 

[Ms_Ann]

The possibility of changing someone's mind about something mostly depends on how much they want to believe what they believe now and how deeply they are emotionally invested in it.

Phelia doesn't care what you believe if it is contrary to what she thinks you should believe.

 

[cfuhrer]

Torture works.

It does.

There's also brainwashing.

True.

Indoctrination.

Uh huh.

Kidnap a family member.

This one! Do this one!

 

[Ms_Ann]

It does.



True.



Uh huh.



This one! Do this one!

I don't generally care what people believe unless it stands in the way of what I want.

 

[renard_ruse]

I mean it in a broader human way, not liberal vs conservative. It's an essential question of politics, sure, but what about convincing a friend or loved one to abandon a relationship or behavior they're deeply attached to? Or that a joke is funny?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, partially because duh, but also after watching a TED talk by Megan Phelps-Roper, daughter of Fred Phelps.

I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left.

It is twelve minutes long and very worth watching. I think what she describes is true, but I want to ask her, "would it have worked on your father? If not, what would have?"

How do you change a mind when seeing evidence to the contrary only strengthens misconceptions? Is it even possible, or is the process entirely internal, the product of circumstance?

God does hate fags. I honestly agree with them. 35 years ago a large majority also would have agreed. Sexual reproduction has been a part of nature for nearly 2 billion years. STDs are far more common among people who practice that lifestyle. I mean, its not really a "controversial" viewpoint except for the brainwashing agenda people have been subjected to in the past 30 years.

 

[Ms_Ann]

Phelia doesn't care what you believe unless it is contrary to what she thinks you should believe.

I said that wronger.

 

[Ms_Ann]

Beat them until they relent their screwed up opinions.

Good one.

 

[Phelia]

The possibility of changing someone's mind about something mostly depends on how much they want to believe what they believe now and how deeply they are emotionally invested in it.

You should have watched the video before you responded. What would convince you to do so? If I said "Maybe watch the fucking video next time before you decide to remind everyone of how boring you are?" (I mean, I would never) (well maybe if I missed naptime), would that make you more or less likely to click the link (your decision whether or not to watch the video after clicking is influenced by too many external variables).

If I said, "That's precisely why the video is so fascinating. She was bombarded with messages of hate and twisted religion for her entire life and insulated from the outside world. The entirety of her existence depended on her beliefs. She was beyond emotionally invested, and she changed her mind. Other family members didn't," would that make your more or less likely to click the link?

Really try to imagine both, and how you would have responded. I am genuinely curious.

 

[KingOrfeo]

There's also brainwashing.

Is that what the kids are calling it now?

 

[Hard_Rom]

I'm not sure if you can change someone's mind. That is a strictly personal decision. On a meaningful level about important issues, I think, they need to experience the other side first hand and make some sort of connection. A bully or homophobe needs to experience being shunned or taunted. A potential or early stage alchy needs to either touch bottom briefly or see how low another can sink. Explaining jokes never seems to work. If they don't get it or laugh, move on.

 

[Ms_Ann]

Is that what the kids are calling it now?

Reported.

 

[Ms_Ann]

I'm not sure if you can change someone's mind. That is a strictly personal decision. On a meaningful level about important issues, I think, they need to experience the other side first hand and make some sort of connection. A bully or homophobe needs to experience being shunned or taunted. A potential or early stage alchy needs to either touch bottom briefly or see how low another can sink. Explaining jokes never seems to work. If they don't get it or laugh, move on.

Everyone should all think alike.

 

[Ms_Ann]

I mean it in a broader human way, not liberal vs conservative. It's an essential question of politics, sure, but what about convincing a friend or loved one to abandon a relationship or behavior they're deeply attached to? Or that a joke is funny?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, partially because duh, but also after watching a TED talk by Megan Phelps-Roper, daughter of Fred Phelps.

I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left.

It is twelve minutes long and very worth watching. I think what she describes is true, but I want to ask her, "would it have worked on your father? If not, what would have?"

How do you change a mind when seeing evidence to the contrary only strengthens misconceptions? Is it even possible, or is the process entirely internal, the product of circumstance?

ETA: Please scroll past the trolls. They'll get a diaper change and settle down soon enough.

Kinda like this exchange between Phelia and LadyF:

I don't think you could have encapsulated such a flawed understanding of evolution in so few words if you'd been trying (but I am not surprised, coming from Professor "women have naturally evolved to be hypergamous").

It's clear to most people with a spare brain cell or two that you enjoy saying outrageous things in deliberately offensive contexts as a way to work through your own screaming insecurities, and if that's what gets your dick hard, by all means, knock yourself out. But you don't get to hide behind science. You want to say hateful shit, then own it like the troll you are. You care about reality? Then start with some fucking facts.

If reasoning doesn't work.

Name calling.

 

[Ms_Ann]

Or this exchange with BotanyBoy:

Bro. Read the fucking post and put it together for yourself and get the fuck out. I laid it all out. You have more posts than every other person in this thread except KingO (who can shut the fuck up, too), myself included (and I FUCKING STARTED IT) going on and on about how entitled cunt bitches demand handouts while we actively chose NOT to become CEOs because we're too interested in sitting around complaining about our periods.

And now you're fucking losing and can't deny it or admit it, so you COMPLETELY move the goalposts and expect me to explain shit to you over and over and over.

FUCK you. Start your own goddamn thread if you're so fucking concerned about the employment opportunities for male nurses.

Browbeating.

 

[Phelia]

I'm not sure if you can change someone's mind. That is a strictly personal decision. On a meaningful level about important issues, I think, they need to experience the other side first hand and make some sort of connection. A bully or homophobe needs to experience being shunned or taunted. A potential or early stage alchy needs to either touch bottom briefly or see how low another can sink. Explaining jokes never seems to work. If they don't get it or laugh, move on.

Is that true, though? Wouldn't that cause someone to feel more isolated, attacked, and withdrawn, making it likelier that they lash out? On the other hand, you can't coddle bad behavior or ignore malice. You have to strike a balance. It's tough.

I agree that most motivation is internal, but obviously people change their minds. Unless it's just random, external factors must have an influence, and presumably, people can be external factors.

 

[KingOrfeo]

You should have watched the video before you responded. What would convince you to do so? If I said "Maybe watch the fucking video next time before you decide to remind everyone of how boring you are?" (I mean, I would never) (well maybe if I missed naptime), would that make your more or less likely to click the link (your decision whether or not to watch the video after clicking is influenced by too many external variables)

I have watched it now, and it gives me much inspiration. If a woman raised from birth in the Westboro Bapist family, faith, culture and cult can develop an open mind and a heart full of love, there's some little hope for all humans.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

I mean it in a broader human way, not liberal vs conservative. It's an essential question of politics, sure, but what about convincing a friend or loved one to abandon a relationship or behavior they're deeply attached to? Or that a joke is funny?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, partially because duh, but also after watching a TED talk by Megan Phelps-Roper, daughter of Fred Phelps.

I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left.

It is twelve minutes long and very worth watching. I think what she describes is true, but I want to ask her, "would it have worked on your father? If not, what would have?"

How do you change a mind when seeing evidence to the contrary only strengthens misconceptions? Is it even possible, or is the process entirely internal, the product of circumstance?

ETA: Please scroll past the trolls. They'll get a diaper change and settle down soon enough.

YOU don't change someone's mind. YOU can only choose to allow the possibility of having YOUR mind changed.

I thought Phelps-Roper made this point very well with her four main points:

Don't assume bad intent

Ask Questions

Stay Calm

And Make the Argument

I would only add that, as the recipient, you have to genuinely listen to the argument being made as a quid-pro-quo to your own right to make YOUR argument.

The first three points (and my addition) merely create the environment for "The Argument" to percolate within your own intellect.

The result depends as much on "how you cook" as how the recipe was prepared.

 

[Phelia]

I have watched it now, and it gives me much inspiration. If a woman raised from birth in the Westboro Bapist family, faith, culture and cult can develop an open mind and a heart full of love, there's some little hope for all humans.

What changed your mind? Just the fact that I followed up and reminded you to do it at all? My bloody claws and the acid dripping from my teeth? The description?

I posted it because it gives me hope, too. But I know there's more to it, and I'm curious to learn. I think it is a hard thing to study. I mean, there have been gazillions of dollars poured into understanding how to convince people to buy things. I wonder how much of the defense budget is spent trying to understand motivations for joining and leaving ISIS, and how much we will ever see.

 

[Phelia]

YOU don't change someone's mind. YOU can only choose to allow the possibility of having YOUR mind changed.

I thought Phelps-Roper made this point very well with her four main points:

Don't assume bad intent

Ask Questions

Stay Calm

And Make the Argument

I would only add that, as the recipient, you have to genuinely listen to the argument being made as a quid-pro-quo to your own right to make YOUR argument.

The first three points (and my addition) merely create the environment for "The Argument" to percolate within your own intellect.

The result depends as much on "how you cook" as how the recipe was prepared.

Thank you so much for summarizing and posting those, Col! I agree that they're excellent. It feels cheesy but I'd even say profound, despite their simplicity (which can actually make all the difference).

What about the specifics? How much time should you invest asking questions and making the argument, e.g. how do you make the calculations KingO alluded to earlier in the thread? How can you be objective about drawing the line for when enough's enough?

And then what if someone genuinely has bad intent? It must happen sometimes, right?

I think she addressed this a little with the "it's simple-it's hard" bit, but shit. It is hard!