Good Manners

[Chgris]

Keroin, I don't know you, and you don't know me. Nor am I interested in publicly getting into a contest over respective capabilities.

I will say that your automatic assumption of me being less capable than you shows evidence of overconfidence. Regardless, good for you. Give up your seat to someone else and you can stand beside me then.

 

[Keroin]

Keroin, I don't know you, and you don't know me. Nor am I interested in publicly getting into a contest over respective capabilities.

Good, because I'd win.

I will say that your automatic assumption of me being less capable than you shows evidence of overconfidence. Regardless, good for you. Give up your seat to someone else and you can stand beside me then.

Will do. Happily.

 

[JMohegan]

Hmmm... maybe I didn't express it properly. I certainly didn't say anything about "person with cock". What you put there is an adaptation of the old code. The initiator of the date pays the bill. No different except that the sex has changed. In fact leaving out the sex completely arrives at a workable code.

As to your next question, the old "Women and children first." is what comes to mind immediately. And if anyone doesn't know what it means, it refers to women and children taking precedence in a lifeboat.

Also I believe someone referred earlier to giving up a seat on a bus/subway to a woman or the elderly. That also is worth keeping in place. And no, I'm not doing it to denigrate a female as being less capable than me of standing for the trip. I would simply rather they have the protection of the seat in the event of an emergency.

And I'm sorry, but I will never stop opening doors or assisting a female or elderly companion with sliding in a chair or carrying a parcel. Call me outdated, old-fashioned, or whatever you wish. I am who I am.

Christ, man. I'm not trying to tell you to stop doing anything. We're having a conversation about manners - i.e., that which is generally considered to be polite in our society.

The statement in bold works for me.

Old code: Male always gives up his seat on a bus to a female.

New code: Healthy, strong person gives up his/her seat on a bus to anyone demonstrably less so.

 

[Chgris]

Works for me.

Especially as demonstrated by Keroin's comments to me.

You know what's is sad, though? Regardless of how we come up with this, you will see it only as the exception to the rule in general observation.

 

[Chgris]

Good, because I'd win.



Will do. Happily.

lol It's always nice to see someone confident in their own ability.

I seem to remember something about "Pride goeth before the fall." But we'll ignore that old saw for the purpose of this discussion before we end up hijacking the thread.

 

[Keroin]

Especially as demonstrated by Keroin's comments to me.

I'm a mean, mean person.



(Dude, I was also a stunt person for a lot of years, so, yeah, I think I can take care of myself juuuuuusst fine, thankyouverymuch.)

No offense, I'm sure you're very capable but my guess is that I've had loads more experience being in moving vehicles that crash and smash.

 

[teknight]

I'm a mean, mean person.



(Dude, I was also a stunt person for a lot of years, so, yeah, I think I can take care of myself juuuuuusst fine, thankyouverymuch.)

No offense, I'm sure you're very capable but my guess is that I've had loads more experience being in moving vehicles that crash and smash.

This is just beggin' for a comment about women drivers....

Insert *giggity* in 3-2-1....


(Sorry, Keroin, couldn't be helped)

 

[JMohegan]

Works for me.

Especially as demonstrated by Keroin's comments to me.

You know what's is sad, though? Regardless of how we come up with this, you will see it only as the exception to the rule in general observation.

My apologies; you lost me there. What are you assuming I'll see as only an exception?

 

[Chgris]

I'm a mean, mean person.



(Dude, I was also a stunt person for a lot of years, so, yeah, I think I can take care of myself juuuuuusst fine, thankyouverymuch.)

No offense, I'm sure you're very capable but my guess is that I've had loads more experience being in moving vehicles that crash and smash.

By virtue of that experience, you certainly have with vehicles. I hope that you didn't sustain any nagging injuries from it.

However, I'd have to say that training makes you the exception to the rule, no?

 

[Chgris]

My apologies; you lost me there. What are you assuming I'll see as only an exception?

Simple good manners of any sort.

A short list of those not seen this past weekend out in public:

A healthy person holding a door for one not, or burdened with packages.

The ever popular "Please" "Thank you" "You're welcome."

Waiting patiently in a line that you knew was there, that everyone else has to wait in, without constant vulgar comments about the ability and/or intelligence of the clerk.

 

[Keroin]

By virtue of that experience, you certainly have with vehicles. I hope that you didn't sustain any nagging injuries from it.

However, I'd have to say that training makes you the exception to the rule, no?

Injuries? LOL. Got a million of 'em.


No, I'm not the exception. These days, there are many, many physically capable women out there.

 

[JMohegan]

Simple good manners of any sort.

A short list of those not seen this past weekend out in public:

A healthy person holding a door for one not, or burdened with packages.

The ever popular "Please" "Thank you" "You're welcome."

Waiting patiently in a line that you knew was there, that everyone else has to wait in, without constant vulgar comments about the ability and/or intelligence of the clerk.

Oh, okay. Thanks for explaining.

You're absolutely right, and that *is* unfortunate, I agree. Nothing to do with gender roles shifting, but rather a general coarsening of society.

 

[Keroin]

This is just beggin' for a comment about women drivers....

Insert *giggity* in 3-2-1....


(Sorry, Keroin, couldn't be helped)

Oh please, I'm two martinis in. Nothing can offend.

Besides, I can out-drive 90% of the males out there.

(Overconfidence, thy name is Keroin).

 

[bhndblueyes88]

I'm a mean, mean person.



(Dude, I was also a stunt person for a lot of years, so, yeah, I think I can take care of myself juuuuuusst fine, thankyouverymuch.)

No offense, I'm sure you're very capable but my guess is that I've had loads more experience being in moving vehicles that crash and smash.

Regardless of actual experience, you two sound like scrawny roosters competing in a hay field 9_9

 

[Chgris]

Injuries? LOL. Got a million of 'em.


No, I'm not the exception. These days, there are many, many physically capable women out there.

Did I say there weren't?

What I said was I will continue to do it, because I want them to have the safety as opposed to me. Were I sitting in the seat and survive and the woman perish, *I* would not forgive myself. Whether I would have survived standing or not. That's me.

Also, based on my personal experience, I *know* I can absorb more physical damage than the *average* female.

 

[Keroin]

Regardless of actual experience, you two sound like scrawny roosters competing in a hay field 9_9

And you sound like a potato brain!

*takes glove off and slaps face*

(See also: martinis, I have drunk two)

 

[Chgris]

Regardless of actual experience, you two sound like scrawny roosters competing in a hay field 9_9

lol! Well said! But please, *banty* roosters.

And on that note, I'll leave any further comments to Keroin. I feel I've done enough threadjacking. Apologies to the OP.

 

[teknight]

Oh please, I'm two martinis in. Nothing can offend.

Besides, I can out-drive 90% of the males out there.

(Overconfidence, thy name is Keroin).

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/A33BB298-B1D2-4399-8D8E-75BE74A480BF/42-16720851.jpg
There ya go.

And this thread needs it too.

 

[intothewoods]

Oprah is all about following your own path as a woman...again, as long as that path includes being independent and assertive. also there is nothing inherently dependent or deferential about a woman who chooses to be a housewife or stay-at-home-mom. women who make such a choice will tend to get plenty of support in our culture, as long as they fit that assertive and independent role. the stay-at-home mom running the show, controlling the kids, keeping hubby on a short leash and taking no guff is not much different than the woman who's running a small business or managing a large a company.

There's nothing wrong with assertiveness or independence. Valuing these traits does not mean you denigrate deference or dependence as such. As far as stay at home moms go, you are financially dependent on your husband. Some stay at home moms are in charge in the home, but I know plenty who aren't at all like that. And some are sort of the day to day managers but the husband is the ultimate authority. It really just depends. Our culture isn't monolithic.

but that's just the thing, that's not a fact. talk about a fantasy land! the example Braschi provided was a good one, of how certain feminine roles and choices are no longer given any validation or respect by mainstream culture. i would imagine you haven't had the unfortunate experience of it being drilled into you from age 5 to 30 that everything you are is wrong, defective and dysfunctional because you were never able to conform to mainstream standards and expectations. lucky you, and i certainly envy that.

of course there are teensy glimpses of hope from time to time...like the public schools in DC which are gender segregated, and teach boys and girls differently with the understanding that entirely different methods are required for the success of both (such as boys being permitted to be loud and rambunctious, so long as they are productive). of course there are plenty of folks who find this completely sexist and furthermore, unsuccessful...so we will see if it lasts. but in the big picture, things continue to look mighty grim.

I answered Braschi's post earlier. I don't live in a fantasy land. I'm a parent, and I know many parents of all different walks of life and cultures. I'm a mother of a boy and I know many other parents of boys -- feminists, conservative Christians, Muslims, urban and suburban, stay at home moms, working moms, etc. -- I don't know anyone who doesn't think boys generally are more rambunctious and often learn differently than girls, more significantly at a younger age. This is not rocket science. It's not controversial. If I had a dime for every "he's a boy" I've heard in response to a behavior I'm describing, I would be a rich mama. People get the differences.

No, my parents never told me that "everything" I am is "wrong, defective and dysfunctional," but that doesn't mean I don't understand being an outsider and feeling like who I am is not normal, validated or mainstream. In fact, I felt like that often growing up.

I think we have a long way to go in terms of understanding and accepting the full range of what it means to be a boy, girl, man, woman in our culture. People are who they are. You could try to create an environment that is scrubbed free of gender. Or you could tell your kids that men are naturally authoritative. Neither will make your kids live up to a particular vision. They are who they are.

 

[midwestyankee]

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

I see that I'm quite late to the party. My apologies, friends.

This discussion has produced its own disparity of responses along with the predictable discussion of the terrifying threat of feminization of the modern male (coming to a theater near you: the horror!).

I honestly don't think I have enough information to judge the original circumstance so I won't. I can imagine circumstances in which the man's behavior would be perfectly appropriate and others where it might be a deal breaker. We just don't know enough about the rest of the pre-meal conversation nor of the intents of the two parties involved to make a good judgment.

Now, as to the question regarding manners fitting into this whole BDSM thing and the impact of power dynamics on manners. In my world this is a non-question. I treat all my friends with respect and courtesy at all times.

Even when they're wearing a butt plug and a wireless remote-controlled vibe at my direction while dining at a white-table cloth establishment. At which she would most certainly have given me some indication of her preferences from the menu.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

And you sound like a potato brain!

*takes glove off and slaps face*

(See also: martinis, I have drunk two)

Mmm potatoes...hungry...*eats brains*

 

[ownedsubgal]

I think we have a long way to go in terms of understanding and accepting the full range of what it means to be a boy, girl, man, woman in our culture. People are who they are. You could try to create an environment that is scrubbed free of gender. Or you could tell your kids that men are naturally authoritative. Neither will make your kids live up to a particular vision. They are who they are.

on that one point we agree...your kids are who they are, and we can't fix them to a particular mold no matter how hard we may try. of course we can certainly create an environment in which they are deeply ashamed of, or even afraid, of being themselves, and feel unaccepted and invalided in every possible way...and that is why i stated this,

but the fact is that there is plenty of room for men and women to be all or part of their respective traditional roles.

is just false. we can agree to disagree on the rest. now as for me personally, i never said anything about the entirety of who i am being rejected by my "parents"...by my mother, most definitely, but that ceased to affect me by age 12. no, i was referring to society-at-large...from pop media and culture to next door neighbors to psychologists and therapists to social peers and everyone in between. the only place i've been able to find thus far where it's okay to be me is in a relative bubble off on the fringes of mainstream society. it would be nice to not be restricted to that tiny bubble, that's all.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

just a comment based on my life-observations, it's worth considering that you're hypersensitive based on your own personal situation, thus reading into things far more than is ever intended by them. Not saying you are for sure, just something to think about

 

[YourCaptor]

Sooooo...

If a woman enjoys having sex and wants to do so without running the social etiquette maze, she is not worthy of respect?



If you haven't visited already, you might enjoy this thread. Lots of food for thought on all those evil feminists.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=718403

Bad choice of words probably, disregarding social etiquette = no respect.

And it's not the fact that a woman may have lot's of sex. It's that you don't need to respect her to get sex out of her.

 

[teknight]

What annoys me about this sort of situation is that it's an undermining of common courtesy. People have lots the concept of respect and politeness. Granted, a couple of the "old customs" might be a bit out-dated, but the general idea that we can't be courteous because it somehow denigrates women... no, I don't share that.

What's this common courtesy you speak of? And what democratic election made it so common?
No one's saying you can't be courteous- the question is "What does it mean to be courteous?"

For starters, the whole, "used to be nice to women because they were thought to be fragile" is a bunch of hogwash. Seriously. That only applied to the Upper Class -toffs- people who could afford to keep women in the house doing nothing. The rest of society had to work bloody hard -as in 16 hours, seven days a week hard- and that included the women. Furthermore, the housewife job did not mean sitting at home doing nothing. Most people lived on farms, where the housewife was not only expected to do the washing up and cooking -and this was back when women had to make their own soap- but supervise the stores for the rest of the year, act as general nurse and doctor to the family, seamstress (no one bought close at the store) and take on a good portion of the work in the household, and the education of the children. Add to that she would often have up to twelve children who would be born with no more anaesthetic than a shot of spirits. If they could afford that. Being a woman used to be a very hard lot, and I am constantly annoyed by "modern women" denigrating their foremothers.

Those people back in the day didn't choose to live in shit. As such, their actions aren't saintly, nor heroic. The foremothers would have loved living as their modern counterparts, given the choice (which they lacked).
Toil isn't a sign of worthiness- get that obsolete idea out out of your head....or give up all the modern trappings, and be "pious/worthy." And here's why I know this to be a fact: if toil were somehow a good, then we'd have stuck with it, instead of creating all this modern machinery to perform the work for us. Toil only means that you're incapable of producing much of value.

The whole chivalry thing was a way for men to show respect and deference towards women. For example, men taking off their hats, in front of authority figures, at church when they humbled themselves before God, and when greeting women. Let's not forget that the hight of courteous acts towards women came in the Victorian Age, named after Her Imperial Majesty Queen Victoria, the reigning monarch over the largest empire in human history. Granted, by then most of her power was vested in Parliament, but that didn't stop hundreds of thousands of men going into battle for "Queen and Country". Funny how "feminists" conveniently forget those parts of history.

Way to make stuff up:
People take off their hats 'cause medieval knights wanted to be recognized on the battlefield. they'd take off their helmets, or raise their visors so people would recognize them. It was a defense mechanism, a survival thing- they didn't wanna be killed by their fellow benighted knights (who, really, were a bunch of dumb brutes, for the most part). They were the masters of their day, and people would emulate their behavior to curry favor.
The Victorians were a bunch of stuck up, gilded idiots, who chose to mark "chivalric behavior" as something worthy of distinction.
And WTF is this shit about feminists denigrating wars? Listen here, you armchair Bohemian corporal, WAR IS HELLl. There's nothing redeeming about it, there's nothing heroic about. It's abject and disgusting. It's death, pain, disease, rape, famine and filth. If feminists want to obliterate it from society's make up, I say, more power to them.
But, don't listen to me: Chivalry died on the battlefield, in 1914. It was mowed down by German machine guns- efficient machines that signified progress.

Anyway, that's kind of unrelated. As for the original question, what I'd see as a "reg flag" are people trying to read too much into this man's actions. Clearly he was trying to be courteous and respectful; asking her what she found interesting and then ordering it for her. This probably has a lot more to do with his upbringing, and view of good manners than any intent of trying to "establish dominance". If the pyl had any suspicions about that, she should probably ask. Talk to her partner instead of judging the PYL's character on a single instance. So, people who assume things of others based on one or two actions... that should raise some red flags.

And you just assumed everything about this character as well. Good job disproving your own point.

Otherwise, I think society has lost so much of its value and respect for other people, that when someone actually does show some manners, it comes out so odd that we treat it with suspicion. I think that's just sad.

I think it's just sad that you can't express yourself correctly, 'cause, frankly, it's disrespecting your reader, your audience. But that's ad hominem and, as such, uncouth. When did you get to decide what "manners" are? Your phrasing is, once again, insulting, since, you come off as the authority on this stuff. Guess what? You're not.

I used to chafe at simple acts of courtesy, I remember, like holding a door open, or helping a girl with her coat, for that very reason. I felt they were kind of submissive and servile. Of course after I dug up some history and got some perspective on it (maturity, maybe?) I realized that it was a very good idea. Of course by then I'd got a bad habit, and it's been something of "retraining" myself to become polite again.

You changed your behavior and you feel good about it. You've resolved your cognitive dissonance. Want an award?

There's where you hit the nail on the head. In order to respect someone, that someone has to be respectable. Unfortunately most people aren't very respectable, or respectful these days

Yeah, they present their fabricated notions as some sort of holy writ. You're right. You're not respectful at all.

Respect is not about acting like a machine in a given set of social situations. 'cause, if it is so, then those automatic doors at WalMart are some of the most well mannered things in the world. What you define as respect is merely an internal process: you perceive a situation, you react to it, and you feel good about it. Good job on being selfish and immature. Respect is about acknowledging the other person (which requires patience and brains). That's difficult, and, in a diverse society, it might not always be possible (with cantankerous nit pickers like me, it might be nigh impossible), but that's alright, 'cause tomorrow's another day.

And...if you wanna respect yourself, have the decency to learn and grow and adapt. Don't be a machine.