Do you "Steal" computer software?

[Killswitch]

Ive admitted it's thievery....but like I said earlier with examples.....I'll fight fire with fire....a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye.

Is it wrong....sure.
Am I justifying thievery with thievery....sure.

I dont care.....Im off to cop MS word and excell from wherever I can.......

 

[patient1]

Ive admitted it's thievery....but like I said earlier with examples.....I'll fight fire with fire....a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye.

Is it wrong....sure.
Am I justifying thievery with thievery....sure.

I dont care.....Im off to cop MS word and excell from wherever I can.......

I think I've given you too much credit as a parent.
I think you're ignore list material afterall. Thanks for clearing things up.

 

[Forever_Gemini]

Ive admitted it's thievery....but like I said earlier with examples.....I'll fight fire with fire....a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye.

Is it wrong....sure.
Am I justifying thievery with thievery....sure.

I dont care.....Im off to cop MS word and excell from wherever I can.......

Hiya ks, interesting thread you started, lol... Am I a thief? Well, it is in a grey area as far as I'm concerned... A friend gave me some software to install (the only downside is, that I cannot get tech support ). So I didn't pay for it, but on the other hand they did! I guess, 'they' would be considered as thiefs as well, but I simply think they are just 'cool' friends who like to share, lmfao

But as far as games and music goes, I do my 'rightness' by buying it if I like it after the 'freebie' - so I take some, but I always give some back (works for me - no guilty mind here )

 

[ridddder]

Here is what I depise, ok I bought the software I paid for it. But for every machine I own, not a buddies, but mine I have to buy a new copy to put it on my machine. That is where the bullshit police starts. I paid for it once, why do I have to pay for it over and over, when I already paid?

That is like having to buy a new cell phone for every place I intend to talk on it. One for inside the house, one for the car, one for the office, and on for the RV. I mean please. This is where the silliness of the scheme defeats itself.

I don't mind paying for it in the first place, yes it has value to me. But to tax me over and over is misuse of this percieved use, and causes people to do dishonest things. The same goes with CD's.

If the record companies would sell you a CD with the songs you wanted on them, and not an album with 2 good songs, and the rest crap you would be ok with it. Or if you could buy a CD with any song of your choosing on it, but since you can't and you have to buy $10,000 CDs to accomplish this it makes people want to steal.

I guess the point I am saying is in order to make something not worth stealing you have to make it easier to do something the right way than the wrong way. Whether you do this by cost, and make the difference on volume that is the up to the maker to decide.

Personally, I think the music companies, and the software companies have created alot of anger over the way they have distributed their wares in the past. People are tired of the tricks, the deception, and the all the upgrades which sometimes are worse than the original product. Until something changes here, they will continue to fight a losing battle for intellectual property.

 

[Guest]

Personally, I think the music companies, and the software companies have created alot of anger over the way they have distributed their wares in the past. People are tired of the tricks, the deception, and the all the upgrades which sometimes are worse than the original product. Until something changes here, they will continue to fight a losing battle for intellectual property.

perfectly said. This is the point I was making.

 

[The Heretic]

Here is what I depise, ok I bought the software I paid for it. But for every machine I own, not a buddies, but mine I have to buy a new copy to put it on my machine. That is where the bullshit police starts. I paid for it once, why do I have to pay for it over and over, when I already paid?

That is like having to buy a new cell phone for every place I intend to talk on it. One for inside the house, one for the car, one for the office, and on for the RV. I mean please. This is where the silliness of the scheme defeats itself.

I don't mind paying for it in the first place, yes it has value to me. But to tax me over and over is misuse of this percieved use, and causes people to do dishonest things.

As I said in one of my posts, copyright law is generally such that if you are not using the same software on more than one computer at the same time, then you are probably not violating the law. If however, for example, you are using Word on one computer while your wife uses Word on another computer at the same time, then you should have two separately licensed copies of Word. Just like two people who are in two different places can't read one book at the same time, you shouldn't be doing the same with software. The analogy for a cell phone applies here too; you can't talk to your wife on a cell phone that you both share.

With the possible exception of an OS, I don't have a problem with people who have a copy of say Photoshop on their work copy and one on their home computer, as long as:

1) They have a legal license for Photoshop.
2) They only use one copy at a time.

The general rule in the software industry is that you need to have one legal license for every person that uses the software at the same time another person is using that software. This makes sense and addresses your problem as I understand it.

This thread is not about such issues, it is about people downloading an illegal unlicensed copy of Photoshop from a newsgroup and using it on their computer without ever paying any money whatsoever to Adobe - and then trying to rationalize it with a bunch of nonsense about how:

1) It costs too much.
2) It is a big company so it is okay to steal from them.
3) Big companies alledgedly steal from "the public" so it is okay to steal from them.
4) They can get away with it.
5) The software companies don't prevent it with copy protection so it is okay to steal it.

All of those reasons are bullshit, unethical and immoral.

 

[Killswitch]

I think I've given you too much credit as a parent.
I think you're ignore list material afterall. Thanks for clearing things up.

lol....I couldnt care less who you ignore....and by the way.....I couldnt network the Word program or excel program I downloaded to my comp for their comp....so....I installed kazaa on theirs and did it that way....PLUS....I am going to teach them how to get free goodies via the net......

They will never have to buy a game again as long as they live.

And on what Gemini said thats another thing....Ive spent probably 20, 000 dollars in my life on Records, Tapes, CD's and Concerts.........I've even been to five concerts that I can think of that I know for a fact the musicians didnt play a fucking note and it was all synched.

And Lick.....I'll be waiting for the so called "Software Police" to come a knocking......

I think I will go download Turbo Tax now.....Ha!

 

[KillerMuffin]

Methinks patient has the right of things.

Honor is so lacking around here.

I must be totally archaic.

 

[Angel]

I must be totally archaic.

You aren't.

I've done it. Software, music, movies, anything I could figure out how to steal/download/crack/rip and use for free.

I don't try to justify it anymore.

I no longer pretend there is some list of 'reasons' for my actions. I can do it so I do/did.

This does and never will make it right.

I've trained myself to not do it anymore after writing, painting, design, graphics, programs and other 'creations' of my own and realizing that I don't want people to steal all of my hard work, the least I can do is support the companies that make some of my work possible, and people who make a living creating things of their own.

I do think prices for many of these programs are extreme. Mostly because I can't afford them. This still doesn't give me the right, or make it okay to steal them and to have done so in the past.

 

[sterlingclay]

1) It costs too much.
2) It is a big company so it is okay to steal from them.
3) Big companies alledgedly steal from "the public" so it is okay to steal from them.
4) They can get away with it.
5) The software companies don't prevent it with copy protection so it is okay to steal it.

1) Agreed with number one.
2) I don't care how big the company is.
3) I don't see how companies steal from the public. They may charge too much for the recreational user, but when they sell to businesses, the price is fair.
4) Yes. I can get away with it. I feel no guilt for it. I'd be watching my ass if I were ever making cash off of stolen goods though.
5) No they don't. Probably because of the copyright loophole you brought up. They should be able to make numerous copies as long as they only use one at a time. With copy protection, you can't do that, thus the fuss. But this is also the open door piracy walks through.



I'm not going to bother with the rationalizations. Like the title says, "almost perfect". I am an angel and a human. In a black and white world where all faults are tried and sentenced, I am a thief. In a capitolist society, I am a consumer paying for a couple hours of download time. It's not a rationalization, it's the truth.

 

[crysede]

lol....I couldnt care less who you ignore....and by the way.....I couldnt network the Word program or excel program I downloaded to my comp for their comp....so....I installed kazaa on theirs and did it that way....PLUS....I am going to teach them how to get free goodies via the net......

They will never have to buy a game again as long as they live.

And on what Gemini said thats another thing....Ive spent probably 20, 000 dollars in my life on Records, Tapes, CD's and Concerts.........I've even been to five concerts that I can think of that I know for a fact the musicians didnt play a fucking note and it was all synched.

And Lick.....I'll be waiting for the so called "Software Police" to come a knocking......

I think I will go download Turbo Tax now.....Ha!

Oh come on Killswitch, what's with this nonsense about companies being dishonest by raising prices as high as possible? The goal of capitalism isn't charging the consumer a 'fair' price, the goal is profit! There's nothing 'dishonest' about making a profit in private industry - hell, the success of your business is judged by how much of a profit you make.

Let's say you're selling your classic bike, and you realize that for some reason there will be an unusually high demand for that model next month, so people will be willing to pay several thousand more than the bike's really worth. If you take this into consideration, and price your bike at what you know people will pay rather than what it's worth, according to your argument you're stealing from them. So, if I come along and steal the bike from you, not paying you a cent for it, I'm not doing anything wrong: you were trying to steal from me by asking that price, so you deserved it. Surely you can see what's wrong with this picture?! It's your bike, not mine: you can demand whatever you want for it - you could ask for 2 billion dollars for it, and that still wouldn't be stealing (it would be insane, but it wouldn't be dishonest).

Same with software companies. The products belong to them, so they can charge whatever they want. You don't have any right to their product, just like I don't have any right to your bike - if you don't like what they're charging, you don't have to buy from them.

* * * * *

You wonder where the good old days have gone when men were honest and hardworking, and a Gentleman was always as good as his word? Well look around dude - you're one of the growing number of people who likes sentiments like "people should be honest," but you only apply such values when it's to your advantage to do so. If someone gives you the motive and opportunity to steal from them then, according to your arguments, it's their fault.

See, I reason slightly differently: it's true that software manufactures largely depend on people's honesty when it comes to the home market, and that they haven't managed to find a way to prevent people from stealing yet. They give dishonest people the opportunity to steal from them, but they are not responsible for those people being dishonest. Adobe didn't put a gun to your head and say "you will steal our program or else!" - you choose to do that all by yourself, so don't go blaming everyone else for it.

You're the only one responsibility for what you do. If you don't like the choices you make then tough - live with it, or make different ones - don't go blaming other people for what you choose to do - no one's holding a gun to your head.

 

[Thrillhouse]

I've been d/l songs for years. Napster, Morpheus, now WinMX. I have absolutely no moral reservations about it, because the RIAA is scum of the Earth. They've been ripping us off for years. $18 for a CD it costs less than $1 to manufacture? Ridiculous. And do you think the bulk of the $17 profit goes to the artists? Try again.

Besides, 90% of the time I d/l songs I would NEVER buy. There is usually an artist who has two or three songs I like, so I d/l them. I've been burned too many times in the past buying CDs based on one or two songs I like. They end up being the only songs I like on the album.

Not to mention d/l sound clips from movies, TV shows, etc. Where would you buy those?

 

[The Heretic]

Let's say you're selling your classic bike, and you realize that for some reason there will be an unusually high demand for that model next month, so people will be willing to pay several thousand more than the bike's really worth.

I agree with what you are saying - however, I would point out that the "worth" of something is determined by the market. A classic bike is only worth what someone will pay for it - if they don't want it then it is worth nothing to them, if they really want it bad it is worth as much as they can gather.

You wonder where the good old days have gone when men were honest and hardworking, and a Gentleman was always as good as his word? Well look around dude - you're one of the growing number of people who likes sentiments like "people should be honest," but you only apply such values when it's to your advantage to do so. If someone gives you the motive and opportunity to steal from them then, according to your arguments, it's their fault.

Yes, I find ironic that the people who steal software attempt to justify it by claiming that the people they are stealing from steal from other people. Personally, methinks they doth protest to much.

 

[Killswitch]

You like always make some good rational points crysede....quickly becoming one of my most respected if not the most respected poster on this board when it comes to serious issues.

I am a product of what I see every day.....Call it a rationalazation for me to take the I'm getting mine while the gettins good way of thinking......and irespective of who gets hurt or what morals I comprimise.....but thats just me.

As far as honesty goes.....I tell the truth.

As far as honesty goes when downloading some software that can be protected and isnt.....Im a thief......

Are oil companies justified in gouging the Public just so they can make rediculous profits? Of course....I could take a bus.....but thats not practical and they know it. I'm all for capitalism, and profit....but gouging is another thing....its called greed.

And I trully believe there are alterier(sp) motives when it comes to why they pout this stuff out there unprotected.....Ive heard the user fiendly arguments and the too much hassle arguments......I dont buy it.

On musicians and profit....I know some professional well known musicians....and you would be shocked to know what the going rate is for an artist on a per cd sold basis.....you would be absolutely shocked. If I told you that an artist is lucky to get 50 cents or 75 cents for each cd sold would you believe me?

Its true.

And of course they get nothing when I download the tunes for free....but these are songs I would never go out and pay 18 dollars for anyhow....so in effect they are getting free marketing by me every time I brag about a band or a tune to someone which is priceless.......like I said.....theres a hidden agenda here in the music and software industry...I believe that.

Or is it just self justification......

 

[Ishmael]

You wonder where the good old days have gone when men were honest and hardworking, and a Gentleman was always as good as his word? Well look around dude - you're one of the growing number of people who likes sentiments like "people should be honest," but you only apply such values when it's to your advantage to do so. If someone gives you the motive and opportunity to steal from them then, according to your arguments, it's their fault.

Quite well put.

The era of rationalization. Whatever you want to do, or don't want to do. Just find a rationalization and do what you want. And one wonders why so many things are done under contract these days.

Ishmael

 

[REDWAVE]

Brainwashed fools!

Worrying about people "stealing" music or software from giant corporations is utterly silly and fatuous, given that those same giant corporations have stolen our lives and our entire world.

 

[RawHumor]

Re: Brainwashed fools!

Worrying about people "stealing" music or software from giant corporations is utterly silly and fatuous, given that those same giant corporations have stolen our lives and our entire world.

Exactly, so we should all go get our free TV from Walmart.

 

[sterlingclay]

Re: Re: Brainwashed fools!

Exactly, so we should all go get our free TV from Walmart.

TV is bad for you. How about a free stereo instead?

 

[Freya]

I have no justification for what I do (except that I'm poor as mud), but yes, I dl songs off the 'net, and have had cds made for me, and have even dl'd a software program or two. For some reason, even knowing it's theft, I don't really feel bad about it. I guess that makes me a terrible person.

 

[Angel]

I guess that makes me a terrible person.

No it doesn't.

 

[sterlingclay]

Calculating the value of software on my pc, roughly $3000. I paid $0. Music, I have no idea but there is quite a bit of it. Same with movies. I am a common criminal. A thief. An untrustable person.

But alas, tis better to be hated for what I am, than loved for what I am not.

Now tar and feather me.

 

[crysede]

You like always make some good rational points crysede....quickly becoming one of my most respected if not the most respected poster on this board when it comes to serious issues.

I am a product of what I see every day.....Call it a rationalazation for me to take the I'm getting mine while the gettins good way of thinking......and irespective of who gets hurt or what morals I comprimise.....but thats just me. As far as honesty goes.....I tell the truth. As far as honesty goes when downloading some software that can be protected and isnt.....Im a thief......

Are oil companies justified in gouging the Public just so they can make rediculous profits? Of course....I could take a bus.....but thats not practical and they know it. I'm all for capitalism, and profit....but gouging is another thing....its called greed.

And I trully believe there are alterier(sp) motives when it comes to why they pout this stuff out there unprotected.....Ive heard the user fiendly arguments and the too much hassle arguments......I dont buy it...

Thanks, and I very much respect the fact that you're willing to listen to my arguments - keeping an open mind is much harder than learning to argue well.

I don't really see what's to buy - it's not like anyone's asking you to take their word for this, you can go talk to people in the industry. For that matter, you've been doing that right here: Heretic is a software designer, and I believe that Ishmael is involved in that industry as well - do they sound like, deep down in their heart of hearts, they really want people to steal their programs? Unless you think that they are just pretending to disapprove, I'm not sure what factual evidence you're basing this claim about the industry's "ulterior motives" on.

I will grant you that all large companies are probably run by greedy people - I doubt non-greedy people would do very well in the free market. I'll also readily agree that this attitude of "screw you guys, I'm out for #1" is a product of the times. Despite the protestation of ardent capitalists, I think that exploiting others for personal benefit is built into capitalism right at the foundation: the number one goal is profit - so when it comes to a choice between ethics and profit, profit wins. Society reaps what it sows: reward greed and you'll get greedy companies, greedy governments, and greedy people, all trying to exploit each other.

However, recognizing that this is where society seems to be headed, doesn't make me like it. Call me a conscientious objector if you want, lol, I don't want to live in a society where everything has to be nailed down to prevent people from walking off with it - so I'll voice my protest by refusing to be the kind of person that walks off with anything.

Worrying about people "stealing" music or software from giant corporations is utterly silly and fatuous, given that those same giant corporations have stolen our lives and our entire world.

He who fights with capitalists should look to it that he himself does not become a capitalist: when you gaze long into the free-market, the free-market also gazes into you.

I have no justification for what I do (except that I'm poor as mud), but yes, I dl songs off the 'net, and have had cds made for me, and have even dl'd a software program or two. For some reason, even knowing it's theft, I don't really feel bad about it. I guess that makes me a terrible person.

I don't think you are a terrible person. If you spent your free time torturing puppies for kicks, then I'd think you were terrible. Breaking copyright law is morally trivial in comparison to torturing puppies. I discuss all issues equally seriously, but that doesn't mean I think everything is actually equally important. I do think that breaking copyright is wrong, but I've done stuff that I consider just as wrong, so who am I to pass judgement.

It's different if someone is making up all sorts of rationalizations to justify why something isn't really their fault - there's demonstrably faulty reasoning that I can point out. Since you take responsibility for your actions, all I can say is that I disagree.

 

[REDWAVE]

"Intellectual" property

Intellectual property laws in general (copyright, trademark, patents) are laws which generally favor the rich and the big corporations, and which shaft the poor. They are unjust laws of class-based discrimination and oppression.

 

[Phoenyx]

Re: "Intellectual" property

Intellectual property laws in general (copyright, trademark, patents) are laws which generally favor the rich and the big corporations, and which shaft the poor. They are unjust laws of class-based discrimination and oppression.

iNTELECTUAL PROPERTY LAWS ALSO PROTECT S NEW CREATORS WHO HAVE PROTECTED THERI WORK FROM HAVING IT STOLEN

 

[Killswitch]

I have no justification for what I do (except that I'm poor as mud), but yes, I dl songs off the 'net, and have had cds made for me, and have even dl'd a software program or two. For some reason, even knowing it's theft, I don't really feel bad about it. I guess that makes me a terrible person.

Not to worry Freya...I have it on good authority that the software police like sexy women with big brestesses, and you'll prolly get off with a slap on the wrist, or some other more stimulating place.........