Did you cut or harm yourself?
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lilredwolph
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I have kept my fingers off the keyboard trying to figure out how to say what I need to say, I don't think I have it figured out but I need to get it out.
as i have stated before i was a cutter, but to label me mentally ill because of it is wrong. i cut to help me deal, i was more aware of what was going on with me than most "normal" non-cutting teens/20 somethings. most people put in my situtation bottled up and locked away, denied what needed to be faced. they put on a show of "normal" but it didn't last it couldn't last. i on the other hand cut myself, to help me cope, i made physical bloody wounds that represented what was going on mentally and emotionally within my self, i could than deal with what needed to be dealt with, i could see it touch it FEEL it taste it, i made it real to myself and real i could deal with.
the 1 example i can give is this, my cousin who is 2 yrs older than myself, and had a life that paralleled mine, bottled everything up and put on a face for the world, she was normal and considered ok, i cut, became vocal, pushed the bad people away and was considered the family black sheep. I now have 2 children, a house, a car and an ex husband, my cousin has Rx's and still lives at home with her mother because she can no longer face the world. she still to this day can not openly talk about what has happened to us, i on the other hand have no problem talking about any of it because i dealt with things as they came, she hid them and denied them and ended up having a total mental break down that she has never recovered from. but ok i'm mentally ill
as i have stated before i was a cutter, but to label me mentally ill because of it is wrong. i cut to help me deal, i was more aware of what was going on with me than most "normal" non-cutting teens/20 somethings. most people put in my situtation bottled up and locked away, denied what needed to be faced. they put on a show of "normal" but it didn't last it couldn't last. i on the other hand cut myself, to help me cope, i made physical bloody wounds that represented what was going on mentally and emotionally within my self, i could than deal with what needed to be dealt with, i could see it touch it FEEL it taste it, i made it real to myself and real i could deal with.
the 1 example i can give is this, my cousin who is 2 yrs older than myself, and had a life that paralleled mine, bottled everything up and put on a face for the world, she was normal and considered ok, i cut, became vocal, pushed the bad people away and was considered the family black sheep. I now have 2 children, a house, a car and an ex husband, my cousin has Rx's and still lives at home with her mother because she can no longer face the world. she still to this day can not openly talk about what has happened to us, i on the other hand have no problem talking about any of it because i dealt with things as they came, she hid them and denied them and ended up having a total mental break down that she has never recovered from. but ok i'm mentally ill
MissTaken
Biker Chick
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lilredwolf???
I just wanted to clarify, that any mention of linking cutting to mental health issues doesn't, for me, necessarily equate to "mental illness."
Richard?
I like the intent behind your post. "Illness" or "being sick" is related to our secrets. Those secrets that we keep deep and don't face on our own or with another. Again, I am translating your comment into my other post suggesting that once "issues" are recognized and dealt with, it may or may not have an impact on who we are now.
It is, when we bottle the stuff up and don't cope that we are at greatest risk. So, mayhaps, cutting is one manner of coping that is getting a bad rap? Or it may simply be individualized.
I do believe that being able to lay yourself out on the table for at least one other person is a strong indicator that you are a well person...even if you dont' have that other person to do this with. It is the confidence adn ability to face your demons, share them and move on that indicates strength.
GEesh...too philosophical. Nyquil anyone????
I just wanted to clarify, that any mention of linking cutting to mental health issues doesn't, for me, necessarily equate to "mental illness."
Richard?
I like the intent behind your post. "Illness" or "being sick" is related to our secrets. Those secrets that we keep deep and don't face on our own or with another. Again, I am translating your comment into my other post suggesting that once "issues" are recognized and dealt with, it may or may not have an impact on who we are now.
It is, when we bottle the stuff up and don't cope that we are at greatest risk. So, mayhaps, cutting is one manner of coping that is getting a bad rap? Or it may simply be individualized.
I do believe that being able to lay yourself out on the table for at least one other person is a strong indicator that you are a well person...even if you dont' have that other person to do this with. It is the confidence adn ability to face your demons, share them and move on that indicates strength.
GEesh...too philosophical. Nyquil anyone????
lilredwolph
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Miss T i was referring to this little ditty
"But self-mutilation is considered to be a sign of some depth of mental illness. There is something going on in some one's head if they engage in this practice."
which was not type by you
i also kinda like this 1 too
"Do I have issues with people cutting themselves? Yes, I do. It's not a normal practice, "
all i can say to that is well ok it wasn't normal for YOU but so what?
"But self-mutilation is considered to be a sign of some depth of mental illness. There is something going on in some one's head if they engage in this practice."
which was not type by you
i also kinda like this 1 too
"Do I have issues with people cutting themselves? Yes, I do. It's not a normal practice, "
all i can say to that is well ok it wasn't normal for YOU but so what?
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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lilredwolph makes a good case against self harming being a 'mental illness'; since that term is not longer PC, we'd put her point in terms of it not being a 'mental disorder' or necessarily a sign of one.
A quick search by Google shows no lack of shrinks willing to say that self harming IS a mental disorder (or should be, since it's not exactly on its own in DSM IV). But shrinks say a child's refusal to go to school is a mental disorder.
I found a more balanced view at two sites; the simple point being that 'cutting' behavior is compatible with having decent coping skills, and is not necessarily linked to Borderline personality, the only connection you see in DSM, afaik.
As with the perversions, the trend of DSM is to require harm to social or occupational functioning in order to have 'mental disorder'.
http://www.selfinjury.org/indexnet.html
Common Myths about Self-Injury
Self-harm is usually a failed suicide attempt.
This myth persists despite a wealth of studies showing that, although people who self-injure may be at a higher risk of suicide than others, they distinguish betwen acts of self-harm and attempted suicide. Many, if not most, self-injuring people who make a suicide attempt use means that are completely different to their preferred methods of self-inflicted violence.
People who self-injure are crazy and should be locked up.
Tracy Alderman, Ph.D., author of The Scarred Soul, addressed this:
"Fear can lead to dangerous overreactions. In dealing with clients who hurt themselves, you will probably feel fear. . . . Hospitalizing clients for self-inflicted violence is one such form of overreaction. Many therapists, because they do not possess an adequate understanding of SIV, will use extreme measures to assure (they think) their clients' best interests. However, few people who self-injure need to be hospitalized or institutionalized. The vast majority of self-inflicted wounds are neither life threatening nor require medical treatment. Hospitalizing a client involuntarily for these issues can be damaging in several ways. Because SIV is closely related to feelings of lack of control and overwhelming emotional states, placing someone in a setting that by its nature evokes these feelings is very likely to make matters worse, and may lead to an incident of SIV. In addition, involuntary hospitalization often affects the therapeutic relationship in negative ways, eroding trust, communication, rapport, and honesty. Caution should be used when assessing a client's level of threat to self or others. In most cases, SIV is not life threatening. . . . Because SIV is so misunderstood, clinicians often overreact and provide treatment that is contraindicated.
People who self-harm are just trying to get attention.
A wise friend once emailed me a list of attention-seeking behaviors: wearing nice clothing, smiling at people, saying "hi", going to the check-out counter at a store, and so on. We all seek attention all the time; wanting attention is not bad or sick. If someone is in so much distress and feel so ignored that the only way he can think of to express his pain is by hurting his body, something is definitely wrong in his life and this isn't the time to be making moral judgments about his behavior.
That said, most poeple who self-injure go to great lengths to hide their wounds and scars. Many consider their self-harm to be a deeply shameful secret and dread the consequences of discovery.
Only people with Borderline Personality Disorder self-harm.
Self-harm is a criterion for diagnosing BPD, but there are 8 other equally-important criteria. Not everyone with BPD self-harms, and not all people who self-harm have BPD (regardless of practitioners who automatically diagnose anyone who self-injures with BPD).
========
http://www.aapel.org/bdp/BLsuicideUS.html
Do people self-injure because they have BPD or because this is one way people cope with trauma, regardless of whether or not they have BPD?
A recent study showed that posttraumatic stress disorder, substance abuse and intermittent explosive disorder were significantly related to self-mutiliative behavior, regardless of whether or not the subjects had been diagnosed with BPD or antisocial personality disorder. Also, high levels of dissociation were related to self-mutilation, after other factors, such as self-mutilation and BPD were controlled for (Zlotnick, 1999).
========
I kinda like the 'self injury information and support' site, also
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/injury.html
A quick search by Google shows no lack of shrinks willing to say that self harming IS a mental disorder (or should be, since it's not exactly on its own in DSM IV). But shrinks say a child's refusal to go to school is a mental disorder.
I found a more balanced view at two sites; the simple point being that 'cutting' behavior is compatible with having decent coping skills, and is not necessarily linked to Borderline personality, the only connection you see in DSM, afaik.
As with the perversions, the trend of DSM is to require harm to social or occupational functioning in order to have 'mental disorder'.
http://www.selfinjury.org/indexnet.html
Common Myths about Self-Injury
Self-harm is usually a failed suicide attempt.
This myth persists despite a wealth of studies showing that, although people who self-injure may be at a higher risk of suicide than others, they distinguish betwen acts of self-harm and attempted suicide. Many, if not most, self-injuring people who make a suicide attempt use means that are completely different to their preferred methods of self-inflicted violence.
People who self-injure are crazy and should be locked up.
Tracy Alderman, Ph.D., author of The Scarred Soul, addressed this:
"Fear can lead to dangerous overreactions. In dealing with clients who hurt themselves, you will probably feel fear. . . . Hospitalizing clients for self-inflicted violence is one such form of overreaction. Many therapists, because they do not possess an adequate understanding of SIV, will use extreme measures to assure (they think) their clients' best interests. However, few people who self-injure need to be hospitalized or institutionalized. The vast majority of self-inflicted wounds are neither life threatening nor require medical treatment. Hospitalizing a client involuntarily for these issues can be damaging in several ways. Because SIV is closely related to feelings of lack of control and overwhelming emotional states, placing someone in a setting that by its nature evokes these feelings is very likely to make matters worse, and may lead to an incident of SIV. In addition, involuntary hospitalization often affects the therapeutic relationship in negative ways, eroding trust, communication, rapport, and honesty. Caution should be used when assessing a client's level of threat to self or others. In most cases, SIV is not life threatening. . . . Because SIV is so misunderstood, clinicians often overreact and provide treatment that is contraindicated.
People who self-harm are just trying to get attention.
A wise friend once emailed me a list of attention-seeking behaviors: wearing nice clothing, smiling at people, saying "hi", going to the check-out counter at a store, and so on. We all seek attention all the time; wanting attention is not bad or sick. If someone is in so much distress and feel so ignored that the only way he can think of to express his pain is by hurting his body, something is definitely wrong in his life and this isn't the time to be making moral judgments about his behavior.
That said, most poeple who self-injure go to great lengths to hide their wounds and scars. Many consider their self-harm to be a deeply shameful secret and dread the consequences of discovery.
Only people with Borderline Personality Disorder self-harm.
Self-harm is a criterion for diagnosing BPD, but there are 8 other equally-important criteria. Not everyone with BPD self-harms, and not all people who self-harm have BPD (regardless of practitioners who automatically diagnose anyone who self-injures with BPD).
========
http://www.aapel.org/bdp/BLsuicideUS.html
Do people self-injure because they have BPD or because this is one way people cope with trauma, regardless of whether or not they have BPD?
A recent study showed that posttraumatic stress disorder, substance abuse and intermittent explosive disorder were significantly related to self-mutiliative behavior, regardless of whether or not the subjects had been diagnosed with BPD or antisocial personality disorder. Also, high levels of dissociation were related to self-mutilation, after other factors, such as self-mutilation and BPD were controlled for (Zlotnick, 1999).
========
I kinda like the 'self injury information and support' site, also
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/injury.html
Last edited:
s'lara
Literotica Guru
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zanna said:*offers s'lara a clothespin* psssssstttttt...always keep one handy!
zanna
*chuckles softly* indeed i do, but that errant tongue LIKES the clothespin. So, a form of physical punishment for this masochist is often a pleasure. How about denial? Denying me my use of my tongue for anything but necessary speech would work ... ohh zanna, you non-Domme you. *sniffs out a compliment in there somewhere*
Johnny Mayberry
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*hugs to my fellow cutters*
You would think that in a community in which people show their love by smacking, biting, and occasionally pissing on each other, there would be a little more sensitivity...
You would think that in a community in which people show their love by smacking, biting, and occasionally pissing on each other, there would be a little more sensitivity...
MissTaken
Biker Chick
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Hmmm as for sensitivity?
Now really, I have seen the same discussion started elsewhere and ultimately, it turned into an all out flame war.
Having different perspectives adn voicing them is what makes a discussion....really, I think we have done well to remain a bit distanced and detached.
And again, remember our perspectives are often impacted by our experiences.
*hugs * to everyone!
Now really, I have seen the same discussion started elsewhere and ultimately, it turned into an all out flame war.
Having different perspectives adn voicing them is what makes a discussion....really, I think we have done well to remain a bit distanced and detached.
And again, remember our perspectives are often impacted by our experiences.
*hugs * to everyone!
FungiUg
Waves at Cats
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- Nov 20, 2001
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I'm not a "cutter" in past or present (my self destructive urges lie in other planes), so I have hesitated to comment.
Really, we are all learning to be open minded. People are self destructive in many ways, and learning to deal with our inner demons is part of life. Those demons differ from person to person is all.
I pity those who haven't had to face adversity in their lives. How will they deal with it when it happens?
Those who have dealt with adversity I empathise with. Those who have overcome their adversities, I envy their triumphs!
There's been nothing in this discussion which I saw anyone need be ashamed of.
Really, we are all learning to be open minded. People are self destructive in many ways, and learning to deal with our inner demons is part of life. Those demons differ from person to person is all.
I pity those who haven't had to face adversity in their lives. How will they deal with it when it happens?
Those who have dealt with adversity I empathise with. Those who have overcome their adversities, I envy their triumphs!
There's been nothing in this discussion which I saw anyone need be ashamed of.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Hi FU,
While I appreciate the expression of tolerance, an expression of sympathy for 'cutters' as 'self destructive' people is not
quite what some of us have in mind.
I have to disagree with your statement:
I'm not a "cutter" in past or present (my self destructive urges lie in other planes), so I have hesitated to comment.
Really, we are all learning to be open minded. People are self destructive in many ways, and learning to deal with our inner demons is part of life. Those demons differ from person to person is all.
You are pretty clearly indicating the following:
'Harming' (e.g., cutting) oneself is from a 'self destructive' urge. As opposed, say, to a 'self-preservative' urge.
Yet this is NOT necessarily true in any but a trivial sense (as in having one's ears pierced several times; or taking up rock climbing as a hobby.)
Although you are mistaken, your calm is appreciated.
While I appreciate the expression of tolerance, an expression of sympathy for 'cutters' as 'self destructive' people is not
quite what some of us have in mind.
I have to disagree with your statement:
I'm not a "cutter" in past or present (my self destructive urges lie in other planes), so I have hesitated to comment.
Really, we are all learning to be open minded. People are self destructive in many ways, and learning to deal with our inner demons is part of life. Those demons differ from person to person is all.
You are pretty clearly indicating the following:
'Harming' (e.g., cutting) oneself is from a 'self destructive' urge. As opposed, say, to a 'self-preservative' urge.
Yet this is NOT necessarily true in any but a trivial sense (as in having one's ears pierced several times; or taking up rock climbing as a hobby.)
Although you are mistaken, your calm is appreciated.
Last edited:
Johnny Mayberry
Golden Boy
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- Dec 23, 2002
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MissTaken said:Hmmm as for sensitivity?
Now really, I have seen the same discussion started elsewhere and ultimately, it turned into an all out flame war.
Having different perspectives adn voicing them is what makes a discussion....really, I think we have done well to remain a bit distanced and detached.
And again, remember our perspectives are often impacted by our experiences.
*hugs * to everyone!
Yeah, but just ignore me...I'm an insensitive bastard!
Richard49
The Gentleman Dom
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- Feb 27, 2002
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A little twist to this discussion
As I have shared on my thread and other places
I am a recovery addict
I have 5 years and 10 months clean as of the 27th
A lot of women that come into the program are cutters
and some self abuse other ways .....
In this case the women use drugs and self abuse
to deal with the pain of the real world .....
They usually increase or go back to sefl abuse after
they stop using
Does this have anything to do with what has been posted on this thread? I don't know. I am just providing info.
What I did not say
1) that all female drug users are cutters
2) that male drug users are NOT cutters
3) that all cutters are drug users
As I have shared on my thread and other places
I am a recovery addict
I have 5 years and 10 months clean as of the 27th
A lot of women that come into the program are cutters
and some self abuse other ways .....
In this case the women use drugs and self abuse
to deal with the pain of the real world .....
They usually increase or go back to sefl abuse after
they stop using
Does this have anything to do with what has been posted on this thread? I don't know. I am just providing info.
What I did not say
1) that all female drug users are cutters
2) that male drug users are NOT cutters
3) that all cutters are drug users
SexyChele said:
No trauma, no abuse, not as a child and not as an adult. I have never cut myself and, while I do have a fascination with brands, I have never actually applied hot metal to skin, not on purpose anyway. I don't post much here but, I do read a lot so, I guess that makes me number 2.
I almost never come here any more, but this topic got my attention. I've been thinking for a few days of what to write.
Yes, I have cut. I haven't lately, not since December. Will I cut again? Maybe...I don't know.
I agree with cutting not being a mental illness. When I have cut, I am very aware of what I am doing, and am not doing it with the intent to harm myself or attempt suicide. I have only cut during times of extreme mental confusion or pain. I am clinically depressed, yes...but I consider cutting separate from my depression, separate from my submissiveness.
Cutting is my way to meditate. When I cut, I can think of only one thing. I feel pain, yes, but that's part of the "focus". My cut in December was the deepest I have ever done...about a half inch deep into the heel of my hand, about a 1/2 inch in length. But you must understand...it wasn't to harm myself, it wasn't because I hated myself...I was in a lot of pain, and I guess the deeper the emotional pain, the deeper the physical pain.
And I know I would never cut myself deep enough to cause permanent damage (aside from mild scarring) or to aquire medical attention. I really do use it as a form of meditation. I am also pierced and tattooed...while I enjoy the look of my piercings (eyebrow, inner conch) and my tatoos (I have three...ankle, shoulder, hip), they were done mostly as symbolism/pain/ritual/release. I would also never cut myself in a long line, or in a place very visible, like my face or forearms. I am conscious of my appearance and would never intentionally deface myself...I respect myself a great deal.
I don't really know how to explain it better. I feel things intensely and express in intense ways. Just because cutting is not "socially acceptable", does that mean it is wrong? I don't think so. If it were done by someone else, it would be called scarification, and though that is an extreme mod, it is often accepted. Because I inflict in on myself though, there is a difference? It makes me crazy? No, it does not. Whether I consent to doing this to my body from someone else or from myself makes no difference. There are many different ways to express ones self and one's feelings...just because mine happens to be self inflicted on rare occasions, that does not make me unstable. I know when and how to use it, and use it responsibly. I would never attempt suicide (have considered it on occasion, but I think EVERYONE has at one time or another, if even for a moment) and don't desire to actually cause myself harm. No matter what I felt, there is a "safety switch" in my mind that won't let me go "too far". I have known cutters that need medical attention. IMO, and this is just the way that *I* feel, THEY need help. If you cannot stop yourself from doing harm, there are issues there.
I cut to focus...and there have only been maybe a half dozen times in my life when I have cut. When the time is right, I do it because it's what needs to be done to get through whatever I am feeling. I feel "down" often...antidepressants aren't perfect, but I cut very rarely. I consider it an act of dire need, when there is nothing else that will work, and reserve it as such. But it is mine to do, there when I need it, and my right to do with my body as I choose.
Are the people who vent their feelings and rant and scream crazy? Are the people who bottle them all up crazy? There are so many ways to feel and so many ways to be human...mine, and others, is just sometimes a different way. If the situation arises, I'm sure I will cut again. But that is my right. There is no "wrong" way to handle a feeling...as long as it is responsible and the person with the feelings is in control.
Yes, I have cut. I haven't lately, not since December. Will I cut again? Maybe...I don't know.
I agree with cutting not being a mental illness. When I have cut, I am very aware of what I am doing, and am not doing it with the intent to harm myself or attempt suicide. I have only cut during times of extreme mental confusion or pain. I am clinically depressed, yes...but I consider cutting separate from my depression, separate from my submissiveness.
Cutting is my way to meditate. When I cut, I can think of only one thing. I feel pain, yes, but that's part of the "focus". My cut in December was the deepest I have ever done...about a half inch deep into the heel of my hand, about a 1/2 inch in length. But you must understand...it wasn't to harm myself, it wasn't because I hated myself...I was in a lot of pain, and I guess the deeper the emotional pain, the deeper the physical pain.
And I know I would never cut myself deep enough to cause permanent damage (aside from mild scarring) or to aquire medical attention. I really do use it as a form of meditation. I am also pierced and tattooed...while I enjoy the look of my piercings (eyebrow, inner conch) and my tatoos (I have three...ankle, shoulder, hip), they were done mostly as symbolism/pain/ritual/release. I would also never cut myself in a long line, or in a place very visible, like my face or forearms. I am conscious of my appearance and would never intentionally deface myself...I respect myself a great deal.
I don't really know how to explain it better. I feel things intensely and express in intense ways. Just because cutting is not "socially acceptable", does that mean it is wrong? I don't think so. If it were done by someone else, it would be called scarification, and though that is an extreme mod, it is often accepted. Because I inflict in on myself though, there is a difference? It makes me crazy? No, it does not. Whether I consent to doing this to my body from someone else or from myself makes no difference. There are many different ways to express ones self and one's feelings...just because mine happens to be self inflicted on rare occasions, that does not make me unstable. I know when and how to use it, and use it responsibly. I would never attempt suicide (have considered it on occasion, but I think EVERYONE has at one time or another, if even for a moment) and don't desire to actually cause myself harm. No matter what I felt, there is a "safety switch" in my mind that won't let me go "too far". I have known cutters that need medical attention. IMO, and this is just the way that *I* feel, THEY need help. If you cannot stop yourself from doing harm, there are issues there.
I cut to focus...and there have only been maybe a half dozen times in my life when I have cut. When the time is right, I do it because it's what needs to be done to get through whatever I am feeling. I feel "down" often...antidepressants aren't perfect, but I cut very rarely. I consider it an act of dire need, when there is nothing else that will work, and reserve it as such. But it is mine to do, there when I need it, and my right to do with my body as I choose.
Are the people who vent their feelings and rant and scream crazy? Are the people who bottle them all up crazy? There are so many ways to feel and so many ways to be human...mine, and others, is just sometimes a different way. If the situation arises, I'm sure I will cut again. But that is my right. There is no "wrong" way to handle a feeling...as long as it is responsible and the person with the feelings is in control.
It's been eye opening: from SexyC's 'it's not normal' to Cirrus 'form of meditation'.
Fung says 'self destructive'. Others say 'coping.'
Of course I lean toward those who say method of coping, and from what I've read and felt, 'self destruction' literally is not usually an issue for many self injurers. I've rarely been tempted to suicide.
Is it 'illness' or disorder? Well, as others have said, if you open up to at least one person, you have some sort of solution to the intamacy problem, and you're not, then, completely fucked in that area.
I think my sentiments of wonderment coincide with Johnny M, who wondered why those whipped and cut and pissed on, are talking of 'normal' sex and mental problems. Surely some bdsm persons place themselves in danger, e.g, through 'breath play.'
Do these bdsm-ers say the breath players are 'ill' or 'need help'.
One word of Fung I did like, though, about demons. There appear to be many ways to deal with them, bdsm appears to be one. And the body, and apparent mistreatment of it are involved.
How odd, then, as Johnny says, that when this 'mainstream' of bdsm looks across the fence at 'cutters', who harm their bodies but live to tell, they wonder about mental balence and self destruction.
Oh, and actually, as we've seen it's not 'accross the fence'; normal bdsm -ers take note. Self harmer and cutters are among you.
Fung says 'self destructive'. Others say 'coping.'
Of course I lean toward those who say method of coping, and from what I've read and felt, 'self destruction' literally is not usually an issue for many self injurers. I've rarely been tempted to suicide.
Is it 'illness' or disorder? Well, as others have said, if you open up to at least one person, you have some sort of solution to the intamacy problem, and you're not, then, completely fucked in that area.
I think my sentiments of wonderment coincide with Johnny M, who wondered why those whipped and cut and pissed on, are talking of 'normal' sex and mental problems. Surely some bdsm persons place themselves in danger, e.g, through 'breath play.'
Do these bdsm-ers say the breath players are 'ill' or 'need help'.
One word of Fung I did like, though, about demons. There appear to be many ways to deal with them, bdsm appears to be one. And the body, and apparent mistreatment of it are involved.
How odd, then, as Johnny says, that when this 'mainstream' of bdsm looks across the fence at 'cutters', who harm their bodies but live to tell, they wonder about mental balence and self destruction.
Oh, and actually, as we've seen it's not 'accross the fence'; normal bdsm -ers take note. Self harmer and cutters are among you.
Last edited:
RisiaSkye
Artistic
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- May 1, 2000
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- 4,387
*ding ding ding*cellis said:
Let me preface this by shining up my merit badges:
I've done cutting and branding on myself since I was 11. The need to practice these behaviors with regularity diminished steadily from the point that I seized control of my life and environment, leaving home and the abusive dynamics there. While I no longer cut or brand frequently, I still use them as a means of focus--as a way of reminding myself to cut through my own anxieties and take agency when I feel the desire/need.
I am now 27 years old, have never been institutionalized, and am a happily married and reasonably successful fledgling academic within the larger society. My field of study is literary cultural studies, and my specialty is the power dynamics of violence.
About cellis's post: Ladies and gents, we have a winner. Self-harm is commonly about control, which is frequently an avenue to taking some kind of agency to change one's environment--the situations causing the levels of anxiety which induce such a desperate need for immediate control of something, even if it's one's own mutilation.
~~~~
Chele--I've had this debate about Secretary several times already, so I don't care to get into it all again here (there's a version of it in A&E over at KT if you're so inclined), but I think we would all do well to realize that perspective is key.
You've just said that you consider self-mutilation pathological--"nuts, crazy, over the edge" in the context of the film, and "don't understand it, don't get it" in real life. Working from that set of assumptions, you see the film very differently than I do. Please allow me to offer an alternative reading of the film, one which fits my version of alternative lifestyle, though clearly not your own.
The screenplay writer may indeed have added the cutting and incarceration to expose her own belief that BDSM is inherently crazy, but you are taking exception with that belief only when it applies to characteristics you identify with yourself. It's a pretty narrow critique, and one that simply accepts the incarceration of Lee for the cutting.
From my perspective, on the other hand, the fact that we dont' see her in the asylum, only leaving it, is an indication that she has been actively punished and silenced for her transgressive desires. The fact that she's been punished for it (by being labelled crazy and incarcerated/"treated") doesn't mean it's actually wrong, just that it's not accepted. To me, this does not make her crazy, it just shows that people see her that way.
I like it for that reason.
I don't see this film as pathologizing BDSM because I don't accept the assumption that cutting is pathological. That you do is of course your choice and your right, but it is far from the only way to read this film.
Also, I like that she doesn't find a way out of the cutting until she finds a satisfyingly mutual D/s dynamic, because--to me--it suggests that the "therapy" didn't actually address her needs and struggles at all, or presumably it would have succeeded. This is just more evidence that it was misguided from the outset.
Look at the home dynamic in which she's so trapped (as shown by the mother's constant ferrying her around, locking up the knives, even keeping watch over her workplace). Then there's the alcoholic and explosive father to whom she's most clearly attached, the controlling but by turns hysterical and emotionally distant mother, the highly visible "successful"(good/right/normal/sane/loved) sister, the submissive and somewhat clueless boyfriend. None of the relationships portrayed offer an outlet for self-directed, chosen, submission. They do, however, offer lots of opportunities for self-judgement, confusion, unpredictability and therefore fear-inducing instabilities of all kinds.
To me, all of these things made it much easier to understand her attraction to Edward--with all of his ridid structure, he still gives her a great deal of autonomy, while still providing her with a space in which to act upon components of her identity that the rest of the people in her life demand that she suppress.
And the ability to accept herself and her desires which she comes to through the process of the relationship--during which she also shows great strength and resolve in helping Edward come to a healthier self-acceptance as a sadist, btw--seems to give her the strength of will or desire (both/and) to turn the tables on the others in her life. Thus, the ending sequence where she commits to Edward, offers her 24/7 submission to him publicly, also contains the long montage of the other people in her life coming through and facing her. She outs herself spectacularly--even to the extent of giving an interview in the newspaper--and more or less demands that she be treated as human and her desires treated as legitimate ones. And through her bravery in facing the judgements which could (and in some cases, do) come from this, she inspires Edward to stop running away from himself and his desires--and without undercutting her submission or his Dominance.
To me, for me, that's a truly beautiful and touching story--and a wonderfully complex and ultimately nurturing Power Exchange to boot.
Interesting that we see it so very differently.
Perspective is everything.
RS
There's a couple questions I'd like to put to the experts, here, since I've heard only one person address it (and that, privately).
They have to do with continueity (sp?).
For me, the piercing and other mutilation besides reducing tension, and at the same time intensifying living, had an erotic quality, further the reduction of tension was completed in self induced orgasm. This has carried forward into bdsm, as I said in that a mistress directs some of the some moves.
Is that the case for anyone here, or am I the only representative of a self-harming pervert --- as distinguished from someone who is at times, say, cuts, at others does bdsm?
Also, some have come through into perversion and left sefl harm behind, others have not completly, like Cirrus and RS. For the latter people, is eroticizeation (sp?) of bodily pain, part of your bdsm? Or do you avoid serious pain in your practices?
In other words, has there been any continous theme of eroticized bodily pain or harm? ( that is, there was transfer or transformation of it into bdsm practice). Same question, if earlier there was not eroticisation, did it turn up into certain painful bdsm practices? Or, by contrast, are painful bodily sensations in bdsm practices now avoided through sticking to non painful modes?
I think I'm going in fucking circles and so I'll sign off. I suppose I'm asking aobut 'kindred spirits' or whether everyone--who does both-- has got sefl-harm and bdsm practices in seperate bags.
Thanks to all.
Xssive.
They have to do with continueity (sp?).
For me, the piercing and other mutilation besides reducing tension, and at the same time intensifying living, had an erotic quality, further the reduction of tension was completed in self induced orgasm. This has carried forward into bdsm, as I said in that a mistress directs some of the some moves.
Is that the case for anyone here, or am I the only representative of a self-harming pervert --- as distinguished from someone who is at times, say, cuts, at others does bdsm?
Also, some have come through into perversion and left sefl harm behind, others have not completly, like Cirrus and RS. For the latter people, is eroticizeation (sp?) of bodily pain, part of your bdsm? Or do you avoid serious pain in your practices?
In other words, has there been any continous theme of eroticized bodily pain or harm? ( that is, there was transfer or transformation of it into bdsm practice). Same question, if earlier there was not eroticisation, did it turn up into certain painful bdsm practices? Or, by contrast, are painful bodily sensations in bdsm practices now avoided through sticking to non painful modes?
I think I'm going in fucking circles and so I'll sign off. I suppose I'm asking aobut 'kindred spirits' or whether everyone--who does both-- has got sefl-harm and bdsm practices in seperate bags.
Thanks to all.
Xssive.
LadyAura
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2003
- Posts
- 537
When I was between 14-16 years old I did cut myself. Nothing seriouly deep but I did it quite often. I hated myself so much. It helped to relieve the emotional pain and in a way I think it was a form of self punishment for all the hatred I felt toward myself. As I grew to love myself and accept myself more I stopped the cutting. I met a few important people along the way that cared enough to reach out to me along the way. I also have a very supportive family. It was truly a very desperate time in my life.
I consider myself to be submissive though I do not readily practice it as a part of my lifestyle. My genre of choice from the Literotica stories are BSDM, Non-consent, and occassionally Mind Control. LadyAura
I consider myself to be submissive though I do not readily practice it as a part of my lifestyle. My genre of choice from the Literotica stories are BSDM, Non-consent, and occassionally Mind Control. LadyAura
