Deportation without chance to plead case in court

[SleepingWarrior]

You cannot "make a choice not to use" legal ways to come here when you HAVE NO MEANS to use those legal ways.

That's like saying you have a choice to be admitted to the all white country club, but yet you really don't, because you happen to be black and poor.

The choice only exists if it is POSSIBLE. For the majority of migrant workers, it is not possible for them to furnish all the required elements in order to have visa applications approved.

Well sorry but if they can't then they can sit their asses down on their side of the border until they can.

 

[SleepingWarrior]

Anyway I have to go. I really am craving a nice slice of pizza but there is none in the house right now and I don't have the money to legally purchase any at the moment so I must cross the street and see if the neighbors have any in their house. If they don't I'll go to the store and just take some without paying. Why, because I really want it right now and can't wait.

Wish me luck in not getting thrown in jail for breaking an unjust law.

 

[Guest]

Well sorry but if they can't then they can sit their asses down on their side of the border until they can.

See, what you're not getting here--no, what you are REFUSING to understand is that the U.S. WANTS illegal workers here. It relies upon them as a source of cheap labor. It's not as if illegal workers come here only to steal, pillage, rape, loot, etc. They come here to work. And that work is cheap. And produce companies profit from it. And U.S. government profits from it. And U.S. people get things cheaper because of it. Do you understand yet? The U.S. breaking a whole myriad of its own laws, regarding the hiring if illegal workers. And it tries its hardest to enforce policies to keep them illegal so it can exploit them. And all the people want to do is be employed here. They're even willing to be exploited in order to do that. And yet you are trying to make the illegal workers look like criminals, and make the U.S. look blameless. Why?

 

[Guest]

Anyway I have to go. I really am craving a nice slice of pizza but there is none in the house right now and I don't have the money to legally purchase any at the moment so I must cross the street and see if the neighbors have any in their house. If they don't I'll go to the store and just take some without paying. Why, because I really want it right now and can't wait.

Wish me luck in not getting thrown in jail for breaking an unjust law.

Migrant workers are not stealing anything. They are contributing cheap labor, off of which many U.S. businesses and citizens profit.

But sure, keep insisting that they are somehow stealing. It is the U.S. gov't that is doing the stealing--in the form of exploitation of illegal people.

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

So what's the answer Owera? You are very good at identifying problems, but seldom offer solutions.


If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

And you and various others are very good at pinning the blame on those who are being exploited, and justifying the exploiter.

I already said that I write to congress, I make noise, I do public speaking, I educate, I try to put a human face on migration and inform the public. I already said that I, personally, try to help migrants and immigrants to the best of my abilities and resources, whether that is giving jackets to poor migrant workers living in northern work camps in fall, or taking people to clinics, or giving people contact information for migrant programs with free legal assistance. I also volunteer my time for a non profit organization for immigrants, migrants and refugees. And I study and disseminate information about U.S.-Mexican migration.

And I guess you missed where I said that, in addition to all these things, "we the people" need to figure out how to change these dangerous laws, and I asked for suggestions other than the ones I already had given. But hey, what do I know, and what do I do, right? So you can go drive off in your shiny corvette and not be involved in helping others, but feel free to criticise us whenver you feel like it. Must be nice to be you, huh? Unless you are actually doing something to help it's just a tad hypocritical to criticise those of us who DO help.

 

[bg23]

Tis not his corvette...tis not released yet.

Just thought I'd add that.

 

[Guest]

Tis not his corvette...tis not released yet.

Just thought I'd add that.

That's okay. I would never blame the vehicle for what its driver does

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

I don't recall my pinning the blame on anyone. I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on this issue.

My question to you, perhaps not framed clearly, was: What is your solution to the problem? Your post above does not answer the question, you just list all the the things you do to draw attention to the problem and your efforts to help the individuals.

What is your policy change you are advocating? Be monarch for a day and tell me how to solve the problem, not what you do do comfort the immigrants.

That's just it: I'm still trying to figure out what would convince the current government NOT to put this decision into action. Obviously my letters to Congress don't work. Obviously circulating petitions isn't working either, nor making any noise less than a giant sonic boom. That's why I asked, many posts ago, if anyone has any other suggestions.

I wouldn't want to be monarch for a day. But if I had the power to change things, I would want to establish an international workers union, whereby the ethnicity and nationality of workers and the country in which they worked (whether their own or not) would NOT be grounds for exploitation or descrimination. Is this getting more at what you were asking?

 

[LadyG]

I wouldn't want to be monarch for a day. But if I had the power to change things, I would want to establish an international workers union, whereby the ethnicity and nationality of workers and the country in which they worked (whether their own or not) would NOT be grounds for exploitation or descrimination. Is this getting more at what you were asking?

An international workers union wouldn't solve the illegal entries though.

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

An international workers union wouldn't solve the illegal entries though.

It would IF (and yes, there's an if) all countries recognized and honored it. Now of course I don't think that is likely to happen anytime soon, but working towards that would be a good goal to prevent this type of international exploitation and descrimination.

 

[LadyG]

It would IF (and yes, there's an if) all countries recognized and honored it. Now of course I don't think that is likely to happen anytime soon, but working towards that would be a good goal to prevent this type of international exploitation and descrimination.

A worker's union is to protect workers/members rights while employed.

It doesn't get them immigration papers/work visas, unless there is a job offer on the table.

No job offer - no visa. No visa = illegals.

 

[Guest]

Well, is the answer to have open boarders so anyone who wanted to could come here to work? Should they be documented in some what? Should they be paid a certian wage with benefits? What about medical? I am reading your posts and think you feel there should be certian "standards" set for the working conditions. If these standards increase the costs to the employeer, would not less people hired? If so, should the "open boarders" only be open if a job exists?

I am really not attacking you here, I just don't see a solution to the problem that does not create new problems and was wondering how you would "fix" things.

I think if there would be the establishment of an international workers' union, then there would be a set of international workers' rights to go along with that. Assuming that countries would obey and respect both of those things (assuming... I'm sure many would choose not to) then workers would have to paid at least minimum wage, have access to health care, be given permission to work internationally (that is to say they would not have to work illegally) and be provided with safe working conditions and safe, up to standard housing. And that would be regardless of what their nationality is, and in which country they are working. As long as they are only there to work, these things would be upheld. So obviously another requirement would be that bosses make legal contracts with their employees.

 

[Marxist]

O, what are you like 17 and dreaming?

A country has a right to enforce its immigration policy. Name one that doesn't.

America is for Americans. Black, white, red, yellow, or whatever.

You'd think someone of your (and my) lineage would understand the necessity of keeping people out.

 

[Don K Dyck]

Define native American. You mean of the original group that came from Asia? Did your people conquer any other people? Didn't one tribe war with another on occasion?

Your lilly white headdress has some stains on it.

Oh dear, oh dear . . . you won't make a favourable impression like that. Taltos.

Listen mate, its NOT the car thing . . . it's just that Owera has this natural aversion to big cars driven by men with microdicks . . .

Ladies with taste and good sense rarely bother with insulting ignoram-mouses . . . why should they when they can have articulate, suave and good mannered beaus by the dozen? . . .

 

[Guest]

O, what are you like 17 and dreaming?

A country has a right to enforce its immigration policy. Name one that doesn't.

America is for Americans. Black, white, red, yellow, or whatever.

You'd think someone of your (and my) lineage would understand the necessity of keeping people out.

So you have absolutely no problem with taking away the right of someone to have their case reviewed by a judge before deciding whether or not they are here legally and whether or not they ought to be shipped out?

Love your username, but am wondering why you picked it.

I don't have a problem with immigration policies. What I have a problem with is policies that clearly set up a large potential for abuse of authority (such as not allowing a person's case to come before a judge) and also those which set the stage for serious exploitation.

America is for Americans, huh? And how many people's ancestors came here from other places? How many people bitched when teh Irish came, when the Eastern Europeans came, when the Italians came, etc? And now those groups are much more accepted, if not thought of as part of "main stream" America. I think people are just continuing their pattern of being scared of the latest immigrant group--in this case mostly Mexicans and Guatemalans (but viewed as "those brown skinned Spanish speakers from south o' the border).

Seriously, how does giving more power to border patrol and taking away a person's ability to have his/her case reviewed by a judge help things? I'd like to know. As I said earlier, even if you don't want illegal people to be here, this should STILL concern you because under this new rule it's possible that a legal resident or even a citizen could be stopped and deported. There's nothing in place to ensure that won't happen. The only thing acting as a check against that was the faith that the immigration dept. would do a check, and then the person would see a judge. But now the person can just be shipped off, and as for the judge that can be easily denied. You don't find this problematic???

Someone of "my lineage" understands exploitation and descrimination. The necessity of keeping people out? You mean the way people tried to kill off the Native Americans, forcibly relocate us out of "their land" and then stick us on useless pieces of rock and sand? Yeah, I understand about "keeping people out". I understand that it's unecessary and (to put it nicely) creates and maintains inequality. I understand that it is done for profit, for exploitation, for greed. I understand that it has rarely resulted in anything beneficial. I understand that black people were "kept out" of many places. I understand that Native Americans were forced out of many places. I understand that this was done by people who believed they had the right to profit off a land which they stole, profit off groups of people which they enslaved and used, and who felt that their religion justified all this.

I understand that the U.S. uses illegal workers and receives a great gain from doing so. And I understand that it is increasing the ability to exploit such workers by manipulating its immigration policies. And I understand it's taking away the possibility of taking things in front of an impartial party (judge) for review. I understand it is making people powerless so that it can continue to exploit and intimidate.

I also understand that people are starving, and are willing and indeed do work their asses off to survive. I understand the U.S. likes workers like that, and has various companies that hire them exclusively. I understand that the goverment knows about this and wants to keep it that way: illegal, and therefore easily exploitable and cheap workers and high company profit. It's marvelous for the economy, you know.

I understand all too well: The descendents of those who stole this land, waged genocide, imported slaves, and justified it all through religion and "what's really good for those ignorant colored people" are now exploiting, profiting, and excluding in a new but just as disgusting way. Only now we're all supposed to be more civilized, right? And surely we would never allow something like that to happen, right?

But here it is. And YOU seem to be okay with it. Go figure.

The "New World" was "for colonists".

America is "for Americans" (read preferably white, middle to upper class straight Christian males).

I understand. I've always understood.

 

[Guest]

Oh dear, oh dear . . . you won't make a favourable impression like that. Taltos.

Listen mate, its NOT the car thing . . . it's just that Owera has this natural aversion to big cars driven by men with microdicks . . .

Ladies with taste and good sense rarely bother with insulting ignoram-mouses . . . why should they when they can have articulate, suave and good mannered beaus by the dozen? . . .

You're right-- it's not the car thing. I don't make the mistake of blaming the vehicle for the wreck which the driver creates

"Articulate, suave and good mannered beaus" sounds nice I don't suppose you'd consider applying? And hey, I don't require paperwork or fees, fingerprinting or photographing. And I don't even descriminate against you economically or phenotypically. And I certainly wouldn't work you to death and/or toss you out when I'm finished
(and I don't plan to profit off of you either)

 

[Bent]

And you and various others are very good at pinning the blame on those who are being exploited, and justifying the exploiter.

I'm not going to go back and read all I missed, because frankly I already said my piece, however...what you are proposing is that

1) It's our fault for what goes on in Mexico, that they are poor because of us...that's bullshit

2) You are also saying that it is our fault that they choose to go the illegal route as opposed to the legal route of coming over...which I can't see since they are offered visas just like any other country

3) They are too poor to feed their families yet they can afford the 2 grand per head to be smuggled over NUMEROUS times...still makes no sense

4) That we should just allow these people full reign in our country because they want to be here...or is it that they don't want to be here?

5) That no one would pick the fruit except a stupid Mexican...because yes, that's what it boils down to, that they are too stupid to realize that 'Hey, my entire family was wiped out crossing over but those gringos need their crops cleared'

6) That the US economy would fail without the Mexicans...seeing how Mexico is a such a rich country because of all the Mexicans, I can see your point *sarcasm*

7) That the US is full of lazy assed white people who won't take care of their own and would rather dangle a juicy piece of meat in front of the stupid Mexican so that the white man can sit on his ass...wrong again...I know plenty of farmer's who don't even use Mexicans to pick their fruit....it's their FAMILY that helps out, just like in the old days before all this immigration shit

8) Screw the fact that we have laws, because the Mexicans have a right to come over here illegally...that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

9) That these illegals should be afforded the same opportunities as those that come over legally because we need our fruit picked...bogus

10) We are responsible for all evil and they shouldn't be held accountable for their stupidity...riiiiiiiiight

How about the Mexicans do this...stay on their side of that line, actually go to school instead of having child after child, become productive members of THEIR society, bring about change in their government, and their police force, and pull Mexico out of it's less than third world status it holds now.

I'm so fucking sick of having to press one for English, I am so sick of seeing fucking billboards in Spanish, I am so sick that English is vastly becoming the second language, I am so sick of seeing a line full of Mexicans at the welfare office when I drive by in my BMW, I am so sick of seeing half a fucking grocery store dedicated to Mexican food, I am so sick that the United States of America is turning into the United States of Mexico.

What's the argument gonna be if they do open the borders which they won't...that we want them to serve in our Armed Forces, pay taxes, and vote?

 

[Guest]

I'm not going to go back and read all I missed, because frankly I already said my piece, however...what you are proposing is that

1) It's our fault for what goes on in Mexico, that they are poor because of us...that's bullshit

2) You are also saying that it is our fault that they choose to go the illegal route as opposed to the legal route of coming over...which I can't see since they are offered visas just like any other country

3) They are too poor to feed their families yet they can afford the 2 grand per head to be smuggled over NUMEROUS times...still makes no sense

4) That we should just allow these people full reign in our country because they want to be here...or is it that they don't want to be here?

5) That no one would pick the fruit except a stupid Mexican...because yes, that's what it boils down to, that they are too stupid to realize that 'Hey, my entire family was wiped out crossing over but those gringos need their crops cleared'

6) That the US economy would fail without the Mexicans...seeing how Mexico is a such a rich country because of all the Mexicans, I can see your point *sarcasm*

7) That the US is full of lazy assed white people who won't take care of their own and would rather dangle a juicy piece of meat in front of the stupid Mexican so that the white man can sit on his ass...wrong again...I know plenty of farmer's who don't even use Mexicans to pick their fruit....it's their FAMILY that helps out, just like in the old days before all this immigration shit

8) Screw the fact that we have laws, because the Mexicans have a right to come over here illegally...that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

9) That these illegals should be afforded the same opportunities as those that come over legally because we need our fruit picked...bogus

10) We are responsible for all evil and they shouldn't be held accountable for their stupidity...riiiiiiiiight

How about the Mexicans do this...stay on their side of that line, actually go to school instead of having child after child, become productive members of THEIR society, bring about change in their government, and their police force, and pull Mexico out of it's less than third world status it holds now.

I'm so fucking sick of having to press one for English, I am so sick of seeing fucking billboards in Spanish, I am so sick that English is vastly becoming the second language, I am so sick of seeing a line full of Mexicans at the welfare office when I drive by in my BMW, I am so sick of seeing half a fucking grocery store dedicated to Mexican food, I am so sick that the United States of America is turning into the United States of Mexico.

What's the argument gonna be if they do open the borders which they won't...that we want them to serve in our Armed Forces, pay taxes, and vote?

I never said they should open borders. I know you said you don't want to go back and read what you missed, but the answers and responses to all these points are already posted.

 

[Bent]

I never said they should open borders. I know you said you don't want to go back and read what you missed, but the answers and responses to all these points are already posted.

And no matter how you slice it X, you're wrong on this. I think they should consider any Mexican, in fact anyone, coming over that border illegally as hostile, and he should be shot.

 

[Guest]

And no matter how you slice it X, you're wrong on this. I think they should consider any Mexican, in fact anyone, coming over that border illegally as hostile, and he should be shot.

Oh, so you're for MURDER? Or shall I rephrase that as GENOCIDE?

Bent, I have lost all respect for you at this point, and that makes me sad. If you really believe what you said, and are a proponent of genocide then I wouldn't shed a single tear if someone were to shoot you.

People of every nationality are human beings. U.S. citizens are not superior. To think that we are leads us right down the same path as Nazi Germany--and indeed, you seem to be in favor of that direction. Your desire to see all non-legal people as hostile even when the majority of them only come here to work and in doing so provide a huge gain to the government--your desire is just astonishing. I do believe you see them as less than human, otherwise I don't see how you could advocate something like that.

I see YOU as being infinitely more hostile than illegal migrants. And yet I don't propose to shoot you.

Editted to add:
You'd be pleased to know that some members of white supremacist groups who live close to the Mexican border occasionally take it upon themselves to shoot at anyone who "looks like" an illegal Mexican. They view it as sport, and try to justify it as "protection our country". They've not only shot at illegal Mexicans, but often shoot at Navajos, legal Mexicans, people of Mexican descent, etc. You would be proud, I'm sure.

 

[Bent]

Oh, so you're for MURDER? Or shall I rephrase that as GENOCIDE?

Bent, I have lost all respect for you at this point, and that makes me sad. If you really believe what you said, and are a proponent of genocide then I wouldn't shed a single tear if someone were to shoot you.

People of every nationality are human beings. U.S. citizens are not superior. To think that we are leads us right down the same path as Nazi Germany--and indeed, you seem to be in favor of that direction. Your desire to see all non-legal people as hostile even when the majority of them only come here to work and in doing so provide a huge gain to the government--your desire is just astonishing. I do believe you see them as less than human, otherwise I don't see how you could advocate something like that.

I see YOU as being infinitely more hostile than illegal migrants. And yet I don't propose to shoot you.

So it's murder if we protect our lands? I suppose we don't have a right to defend our country because these people have a right to 'invade' ours? That's what it amounts to...if they aren't here legally, then their purpose is for illegal behavior, and I say we have a right to protect ourselves from that.

Are they terrorists? Not in the modern day definition, no. But some of us have actually lived amonst these people, and have seen them murder other people, do their stupid little catcall to CHILDREN, and beat the shit out of their own just because it suits them. Sorry, I feel no pity for people like that.

And to compare me to a Nazi is truly reaching. Genocide? Genocide would mean that I would say, 'Line 'em up and shoot 'em all'...I never said that. I said those that come over illegally. Believe what you want of me, I personally could care less. You don't know me, you don't know what I have been through, and you certainly don't know what I have witnessed these people doing. For you to defend law breakers, of all sorts, instead of defending your country and standing by your people is more disgraceful than anything I could ever say.

You claim to be Native American, yet you are so ready to hand this land over to the Mexicans.

If I have to defend my country at the cost of losing your respect, so be it.

 

[Marxist]

Owera,

I assume that you've visited other countries. If you're a visitor in almost any country in the world, they have the right to deport you immediately, no ifs ands or buts. You're a guest. It's just like being in your neighbor's living room. He can tell you to leave without hearing why you should be allowed to stay.

Don't be thick.

No one has a right to stay in America that isn't an American citizen. Sorry.