D/s = inequality. Or does it?

[MissTaken]

Discuss!

 

[Lancecastor]

D/s can equal inequality...but it doesn't have to.

In the Bible, there's a verse in the book of Mark referring to marriage....it uses language that speaks of "when two become as one"....not "when two become one", but "as" one.

Just as people forget the part about "the love of" money being the root of all evil....being "as" one is a critical distinction.

I think people can too easily get caught up in the master/slave stuff as being advesarial as opposed to cooperative and complimentary.

And that's where the trouble starts in any relationship...friendship, business, intimate, sibling, etc.

"Different but equal" is a closer expression of how I realistically expect my relationships to be.

Until I meet a woman that can program a VCR, check the oil level and tire pressure regularly, configure a computer, rewire an electrical appliance and hang a door properly, I'm quite prepared to celebrate our complimentary existences without complaint....and I'll be expecting none from her if I don't religously separate the whites from the colors and perma press. Not as a chauvinist or from a position of self-proclaimed superiority, but as a holistic man aware of our differences.

At this practical level, things can get muddy between a man and a woman....and I expect between a D and an s, regardless of the gender.

Roles at the practical level require definition and negotiation, be it a D/s relationship or not.

How the roles are defined ultimately determine the perception and realities of equality for each party, in my book.


Lance

 

[artful]

Lance

D/s can equal inequality...but it doesn't have to.

In the Bible, there's a verse in the book of Mark referring to marriage....it uses language that speaks of "when two become as one"....not "when two become one", but "as" one.

Just as people forget the part about "the love of" money being the root of all evil....being "as" one is a critical distinction.

I think people can too easily get caught up in the master/slave stuff as being advesarial as opposed to cooperative and complimentary.

And that's where the trouble starts in any relationship...friendship, business, intimate, sibling, etc.

"Different but equal" is a closer expression of how I realistically expect my relationships to be.

Until I meet a woman that can program a VCR, check the oil level and tire pressure regularly, configure a computer, rewire an electrical appliance and hang a door properly, I'm quite prepared to celebrate our complimentary existences without complaint....and I'll be expecting none from her if I don't religously separate the whites from the colors and perma press. Not as a chauvinist or from a position of self-proclaimed superiority, but as a holistic man aware of our differences.

At this practical level, things can get muddy between a man and a woman....and I expect between a D and an s, regardless of the gender.

Roles at the practical level require definition and negotiation, be it a D/s relationship or not.

How the roles are defined ultimately determine the perception and realities of equality for each party, in my book.


Lance

Your post deserves a FULL quote, and I will do that. You explained it well. I hope ALL can see the TRUTH in your words.

All SOLID relationships, (Long Term), *should* have the foundation of equal VALUE for each person. This in no way should be misconstrued as each person having equal talents and abilities.

I agree with your explanation totally.

 

[Desert Amazon]

 

[MissTaken]

I have heard discussions wherein statements are made that D/s cannot be based on equality.

I , like you, don't agree.

Men and women

Doms and subs

Are like two halves that make the hole.

Wasn't it Lance who referred to INTERLOCKING PARTS?

I believe that the premise for this was decreed by God, evolution or whatever. Whether it is a bird, an ape or a human, the male roles are clearly defined and the female roles are clearly defined.

It is natural for a woman to be a supporter, a nurturer and for a man to be "King of his Castle."

Now, in this day and age, women have gone a long way to fight those natural tendencies.

Then some do not.

They may not be submissives, but almost all relationships have elements of power exchange to one degree or another and it doesn't necessarily take away from the equality of the relationship.

I can change my oil, can't rewire an appliance, can set my VCR and possibly configure a pc. Hanging a door? IF I really ahd too, I might prefer to play helpless female though

 

[artful]

MissT

I can change my oil, can't rewire an appliance, can set my VCR and possibly configure a pc. Hanging a door? IF I really ahd too, I might prefer to play helpless female though

MissT,...When you have found your Master,...He will be able to instruct you, in how to properly hang a door, or re-wire an appliance,...fear not.

 

[MissTaken]

Re: MissT

MissT,...When you have found your Master,...He will be able to instruct you, in how to properly hang a door, or re-wire an appliance,...fear not.

And have me do it in the nude, to be sure!

 

[froggy_day]

The s does have equal power for without s there is no D. I feel reassured as either the D or s. As s i know that there is some one to take care of me, and my responsibilities are limited to pleasing my D, i also know that there is someone who loves me, and wishes to take total care of me. As D I know there is someone thinking only about pleasing me, and someone that trusts me to care for them totally. Both positions are empowering.

 

[froggy_day]

<snip>

Until I meet a woman that can program a VCR, check the oil level and tire pressure regularly, configure a computer, rewire an electrical appliance and hang a door properly, I'm quite prepared to celebrate our complimentary existences without complaint....and I'll be expecting none from her if I don't religously separate the whites from the colors and perma press. Not as a chauvinist or from a position of self-proclaimed superiority, but as a holistic man aware of our differences. <snip>

Lance

Crap, maybe I'm really a man, I do program the VCR, check the oil/tires regularly, configure the comp., and have rewired an appliance and hung a door (you don't do those everyday though). But I don't religiously sort the laundry. It's more like nice stuff, favorite t-shirts, jeans, and really muddy stuff. Funny thing is my partner's the same way. We are missing out on the complementariness of this, aren't we.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: MissT

And have me do it in the nude, to be sure!

________________________
actually Miss T ,while that can be the *fun*way to do it ,you can also learn to do those thinngs for yourself thereby empowering yourself as a woman also..just a thought as I also Do not NEED a man to mow my lawnn ,change my oil,fix my vcr ,or my toliet for that matter(handy with tools)..I have learned in a short time how to be Mommy& Daddy both and while it is NOT FUN at all when Discipline time comes arouNd..IT IS INDEED SOMETHIN I am quite good at.......when I see a man pop out a 8and a half pound baby after 12 hours hard labor then I will have a whole new respect for Him!!!! ROFLMFAO.....In all seriousness, we Are Equal,God created us that way..THERE ARE CERTAIN things that men are better at that than women,and just as many things that women are better at than men.. JMHO and it isnt changing!!***


** they are really nice to have around to support annd hold on to tho*

 

[Goddess Helena]

The s does have equal power for without s there is no D. I feel reassured as either the D or s. As s i know that there is some one to take care of me, and my responsibilities are limited to pleasing my D, i also know that there is someone who loves me, and wishes to take total care of me. As D I know there is someone thinking only about pleasing me, and someone that trusts me to care for them totally. Both positions are empowering.

I agree.
Without my boy, I am just a woman who knows how to use a whip. With him, I am a Domme, his Domme. He is just a boy without me. With me, he is my beloved gem. We are equal in desire and purpose. Our roles are equal yet different. Interlocking, making us as one.

Welcome, froggy_day.


Helena

 

[SexySusan]

Actually, Lance, I can do most of the stuff you mentioned. BUT I have never seen a man breast-feed (or have a baby, come to think of it). Maybe you should have stuck with the more biological differences between men and women.

And as for not seperating whites and colors ... I'm guessing most of your formerly whites are now a lovely shade of pink, babyblue or yellow?

Also, it is impossible for two persons to "become one", unless there is some surgery involved.

I do agree that treating as equals doesn't mean treating one like the other.

edited for stupid typo

 

[RisiaSkye]

Reading the posts, I'm confused by the continual reference to stereotypes about what men & women "can" do or "can't" do, as though it's relevant. That equality of value, the sense that both partners (D and s) are necessary and that they complement each other's strengths and fulfill each other's needs, it has nothing to do with male and female. This isn't about men and women or what we think they're good at or "should" be like based on their gender, it's about Dominant and submissive. All the gender stereotypes kicked around here might apply to the fsubs and MDoms (*maybe*) that you know--but they're far from the whole picture.

So, once you look past the smoke-screen of "men are like this and women are like this," what's the issue here? There are two ways to take the original question:
1) Are Dom/me and sub of equal value and importance? Yes.
2) Are they equals within the relationship? Yes and no. They're equally important, but they're certainly not interchangeable, equivalent, or equally empowered.

To pretend that there's no inherent inequality in a permanent TPE seems pretty misleading to me. That's what a Power Exchange is--the transfer of power to one partner, a chosen and consensual inequality that allows one partner to submit to the other. It has nothing to do with their value as people or their ability and right to make choices in their relationship and to be adults with responsiblities, thoughts, and ideas. But, let's not play like it's all equivalent. That defeats the whole purpose of PE, doesn't it?

JMO, of course.

 

[MissTaken]

My point would be, that by nature of the consensual act involved in power exchange, the relationship remains equal.

Would I submit or give myself to someone who couldnt be trusted to consider me, my opinions, my thoughts and needs? No.

Nor would anyone take me unless I met His needs.

As the choice to engage in power exchange is not a flip choice, but something made with consideration, time and trust and knowledge, teh relationship always remains equal on an emotional level.

A D needs and s. I like how that was put.

ON a day to day level? It may appear that the roles aren't equal, but if that is what the two parties consent to, equality still exists.

Visible or not to the nekkid eye.

 

[Mr Wolf]

Gender does not enter into the equation surely, so I shall leave that out of my opinion but as has been said already without s there is no D and vice verse.

Equality must be in place in the relationship on one level purely because it is an agreement between the parties that formats the parameters of the rules for the relationship. That this then allows one person to have power over the other is when the relationship becomes inequal as Risia stated. After all the power exchange is inequality in action, I would not expect my sub to order me around our punish me yet that is what she would expect of me so the relationship is not equal at that point.

If the safe word is used then that is when it becomes equal again and that is also when the power exchange ends and so the relationship becomes equal again. All IMO and hopefully not to boring or anal...lol

 

[~Dream~]

interesting thoughts

As confusing as all this is sounding to me now,I have to say that I agree with what Risia,Miss T ,and Mr.Wolf all 3 have stated,however I guess I will state this: A Dom Needs a Sub and a Sub Needs a Dom,in that "Need" for each other ,We are Equal,I think that's where I was really coming from,thank-you.

 

[sexy-girl]

I can change my oil, can't rewire an appliance, can set my VCR and possibly configure a pc. Hanging a door? IF I really ahd too, I might prefer to play helpless female though

i had to hang a door here recently its not easy especially when the door frame is different widths at the top and the bottom (our house is pretty old)

i can do all the other stuff too except the car bits as i don't drive (lisa does those though) although i did have to change a tire once


i think risia put it best ... BDSM relationships are about power exchanges as i understand them so how can they be completely equal ? ... however because its consensually agreed power exchange that is where the equality comes in i guess

i have to admit though sometimes i wonder how BDSM relationships work in real life ... i mean if you were a submissive would your dom/domme make you a cup of tea when you got in from a hard days work ... would they give you a foot rub and suck your toes ... would they make you dinner because you've had a hard day ... would they clean the dishes for you ... or are all these things seen as un dom/domme like

i know those questions are born out of ignorance on my part but i have to ask them

 

[MsWorthy]

Reading the posts, I'm confused by the continual reference to stereotypes about what men & women "can" do or "can't" do, as though it's relevant. That equality of value, the sense that both partners (D and s) are necessary and that they complement each other's strengths and fulfill each other's needs, it has nothing to do with male and female. This isn't about men and women or what we think they're good at or "should" be like based on their gender, it's about Dominant and submissive. All the gender stereotypes kicked around here might apply to the fsubs and MDoms (*maybe*) that you know--but they're far from the whole picture.

So, once you look past the smoke-screen of "men are like this and women are like this," what's the issue here? There are two ways to take the original question:
1) Are Dom/me and sub of equal value and importance? Yes.
2) Are they equals within the relationship? Yes and no. They're equally important, but they're certainly not interchangeable, equivalent, or equally empowered.

To pretend that there's no inherent inequality in a permanent TPE seems pretty misleading to me. That's what a Power Exchange is--the transfer of power to one partner, a chosen and consensual inequality that allows one partner to submit to the other. It has nothing to do with their value as people or their ability and right to make choices in their relationship and to be adults with responsiblities, thoughts, and ideas. But, let's not play like it's all equivalent. That defeats the whole purpose of PE, doesn't it?

JMO, of course.

Well put, Risia. I agree.

 

[MsWorthy]

i had to hang a door here recently its not easy especially when the door frame is different widths at the top and the bottom (our house is pretty old)

i can do all the other stuff too except the car bits as i don't drive (lisa does those though) although i did have to change a tire once


i think risia put it best ... BDSM relationships are about power exchanges as i understand them so how can they be completely equal ? ... however because its consensually agreed power exchange that is where the equality comes in i guess

i have to admit though sometimes i wonder how BDSM relationships work in real life ... i mean if you were a submissive would your dom/domme make you a cup of tea when you got in from a hard days work ... would they give you a foot rub and suck your toes ... would they make you dinner because you've had a hard day ... would they clean the dishes for you ... or are all these things seen as un dom/domme like

i know those questions are born out of ignorance on my part but i have to ask them

A dom/me can do all of these things, Sexy-girl, if that dom/me wanted to do them. There are no *rules* for dom/mes (or subs) to follow other than those rules they make for their own relationships.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Nothing is always equal. Everything is always in a state of change. That's life and that's what makes it interesting.

I can't be a 24/7 anything, because situations change and my reactions to them change accordingly.

We all have different facets to our personality and we show those facets at different times and in relation to different circumstances. There is not ONE word that definatively describes any of us. Thank God for that.

 

[Ebonyfire]

In my not so humble opinion

my D/s relationships are between equals. Why would I want a submissive who I perceive as being less equal to Me?

Equal does not mean the same. we are different human beings, but our value is equal and his submission is no more or less valuable than my dominance.

Ebony

 

[Red Menace]

What are you defining as being equal? The value of a person or The power one posesses?

Every D/s relationship is different and I can only speak of mine; it is nowhere near equal as far as power exchange. I choose it to be this way. So does He. But as far as value goes, I'm every bit as equal as Sir. If I were in any way perceived by Him as being less than equal, my submission would be meaningless.

 

[artful]

Re: Re: D/s = inequality. Or does it?

But as far as value goes, I'm every bit as equal as Sir. If I were in any way perceived by Him as being less than equal, my submission would be meaningless.

Clearly to the point and I agree.

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Re: D/s = inequality. Or does it?

What are you defining as being equal? The value of a person or The power one posesses?

Every D/s relationship is different and I can only speak of mine; it is nowhere near equal as far as power exchange. I choose it to be this way. So does He. But as far as value goes, I'm every bit as equal as Sir. If I were in any way perceived by Him as being less than equal, my submission would be meaningless.

Ditto.

Applause.

Very cool post!

I think too many people new to the lifestyle assume that by nature of calling one's self Dom, you immediately must behave as a submissive including follow orders.

I remember my one of my four chat room experiences. A gal had been talking to a Dom for two weeks. He had "ordered" her to meet him. He had NOT discussed activities, safe words etc. When she asked about play, he just kept telling her she would love it.

She was going to meet him, even though she was scared. After all the Dom directed her.

We spent hours talking about this issue. The policy of the chat room players with voice was to help by asking questions and let people make up their minds.

We talked.
Equality.
Safety.
The Gift of submission.
The sub has choices.
Respect

She still didn't get it.

Finally, someone *blushing* said simply, "Dont' go unless YOU really want to. Frankly, I am concerned for your safety"

So, here is another example of equality/inequality being misconstured and the "rules" of the game being muddled up.

As long as two parties have choices, the relationship is "equall" on an emotional level.

We always have choices. We must simply live with the consequences of executing our choices.

 

[reddevilGOW]

Let me say this.

I agree it depends on what you are trying to define as being equal if it is the importance of D to s they are equal and the power is exchanged believe it or not equally if you take a moment to step back and think about it. I give my submission to my Master as he gives me the power to submit to him. There for the power exchange is equal. The roles are an equal exchange as well if you take the time to step back and look at it. Dom/me takes care of the sub so the sub can take care of the Dom/me.

It is all equal just the part played is different and the tasks performed are different.