Creationism.

[Tryharder62]

Okay, here's one of my questions. Jepthah's daughter (Judges) was sacrificed to the glory of God and God did not stay his hand, though he stayed Abraham's hand in the sacrifice of Isaac.

So apparently women aren't worth materializing a sacrificial goat.

How am I to feel about that...spiritually?

I had to admit I was not familiar with Jepthah's daughters story. I think this is such a great question. Very thought provoking. I am quoting from some websites that I looked at and other books, why reinvent the wheel but here is what I think.

The point of Abraham's situation was to demonstate that he trusted God completely. The Lord already knew that Abraham was faithful but "His faith was made complete by what he did." (Abraham was told to sacrifice his son by God and he did go to carry it out before he was halted.)

The story of Jephtah's daughter is an epic tragedy about a fatal flaw in an outstanding man. In return for victory in battle Jephtah vowed to sacrifice the first thing he saw when he got home which was his daughter. Jephtah has too long a background to recount here but he was shrewd and calculating or he would not have otherwise survived. The vow he made showed he was not a man that believe in God.

I do not believe that this had anything to do with their sex. Both father's deeply loved their children. Jephtah's daughter was his only child. He was devestated with what he had done.

Abraham grew because of his faithfulness.
Jephtah's and certainly his daughter suffered because of his faithlessness.

Again God could command and make us all including Jephtah be faithful servants. He gave us free will and there is consequences to what we do.

Spiritually it makes me be careful of what I vow. I will leave it up to you how you see it.

 

[KRCummings]

Pancakes?

Voldemort trumps pancakes. Unless they're blueberry of course.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Voldemort trumps pancakes. Unless they're blueberry of course.

Fuck Voldemort. Sauran would whoop his ass.

 

[CHNOPS]

I hate it when Sonny's responses are funnier than mine.

It's OK, it doesn't happen that often.

Now you'll probably stealth edit to make yours say something about blueberry pancakes or something.

 

[Tryharder62]

Do you think that the book of Jonah is an accurate history or a parable?

Accurate

 

[Tryharder62]

The world was not saved. The crack babies certainly were not saved.

If he loves us all, why is Hell allowed and eternal? What sense does it make to punish sin or reward virtue for eternity when the sins or virtue took up an infinitesimally small time out of eternity? Sounds like a bank where you deposit or steal one penny and when you die you either get infinite money as a reward or more debt than you could ever repay.

I'm really not mocking you specifically and glad to hear you think about it. It's the problem with the literal that I can't overcome in the specifics I mention.

I study the Bible as allegory and as history, but too many parts of it are too repulsive for me to take it as a guide other than in some parts.

You know I have really liked your questions and feel you are a very intuitive. I also appreciate that you at least listen to what I have to say.

You are right that the time we are on earth is only a short time compared to eternity. But what I choose to see is that God knows it all from beginning to end . What I think people fail to realize is that the story is not finished. There are things yet to come. God will have the final victory.

I grappled with the same questions you do. Why? Why? Why? when someone wise told that I was trying to be God. Trying to tell him how I think it should be done. ( I am good at that! LOL) But the truth is I am not.

I can only share you the story of myself. To make a long story short bad things happen. But I have tried to use them to help others. If I thought this world was all there was I would already be in the ground. Now I have peace because I know "this world is not my home, I'm just a passen through"

 

[Recidiva]

I had to admit I was not familiar with Jepthah's daughters story. I think this is such a great question. Very thought provoking. I am quoting from some websites that I looked at and other books, why reinvent the wheel but here is what I think.

The point of Abraham's situation was to demonstate that he trusted God completely. The Lord already knew that Abraham was faithful but "His faith was made complete by what he did." (Abraham was told to sacrifice his son by God and he did go to carry it out before he was halted.)

The story of Jephtah's daughter is an epic tragedy about a fatal flaw in an outstanding man. In return for victory in battle Jephtah vowed to sacrifice the first thing he saw when he got home which was his daughter. Jephtah has too long a background to recount here but he was shrewd and calculating or he would not have otherwise survived. The vow he made showed he was not a man that believe in God.

I do not believe that this had anything to do with their sex. Both father's deeply loved their children. Jephtah's daughter was his only child. He was devestated with what he had done.

Abraham grew because of his faithfulness.
Jephtah's and certainly his daughter suffered because of his faithlessness.

Again God could command and make us all including Jephtah be faithful servants. He gave us free will and there is consequences to what we do.

Spiritually it makes me be careful of what I vow. I will leave it up to you how you see it.

Okay. I'm gratified you looked it up and didn't answer my silliness with rejection. I have a snarky sense of humor but in general I think study of the text is important, and I'm glad you checked it out. I have given the Bible study, and there's a lot in there that is relevant and wise.

God spoke to Abraham. Jepthah made a rash vow to God. There is a distinct difference in the delivery of the message of sacrifice. One is asked, the other is offered unwittingly. However, he is in Judges and is considered a Judge, tragic or not.

Literally it could be interpreted to mean "Every time someone's team wins the Super Bowl they could vow to God to sacrifice their daughter and there's no harm, no foul, God didn't punish Jepthah. As long as you feel bad about it, you're still worth honoring for your battle prowess. Don't sacrifice your boys. God might ask you to do that, but he doesn't really mean it. Besides, we need the boys for future Super Bowls."

I'm hoping that by bringing this to people's attention, I didn't just start a new tradition.

If so...oops.

 

[Recidiva]

Fuck Voldemort. Sauran would whoop his ass.

No way. Sauron doesn't have a wand. He can't even expelliarmus!

 

[hogjack]

someone wise told that I was trying to be God.

There is nothing wrong with trying to better yourself. Set more reasonable goals next time.

 

[Recidiva]

You know I have really liked your questions and feel you are a very intuitive. I also appreciate that you at least listen to what I have to say.

You are right that the time we are on earth is only a short time compared to eternity. But what I choose to see is that God knows it all from beginning to end . What I think people fail to realize is that the story is not finished. There are things yet to come. God will have the final victory.

I grappled with the same questions you do. Why? Why? Why? when someone wise told that I was trying to be God. Trying to tell him how I think it should be done. ( I am good at that! LOL) But the truth is I am not.

I can only share you the story of myself. To make a long story short bad things happen. But I have tried to use them to help others. If I thought this world was all there was I would already be in the ground. Now I have peace because I know "this world is not my home, I'm just a passen through"

I think for me when Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven, it's more descriptive of the "state of grace" and honor that someone experiences on earth among those who appreciate the actions taken to help others, and in the regard of God. Peace with your actions, knowing you've done your best with difficult circumstances. To not fear judgment or Gods nor men because you know you've done your best.

I'm not trying to be God. I'm trying to interpret all the ways to think of God and why. I think they all have reasons and value and the more attention I get to give to them, God or not, I learn about the humans I'm here with. How to live here with people of different ideas of what is most important.

I choose to strive toward my own heaven and grace here, and if I meet God later, I'll deal with it then. I don't need a promise of reward to realize that the actions that lead to loving thy neighbor as thyself or doing unto others are worth doing for themselves and not for the reward.

 

[Tryharder62]

Okay. I'm gratified you looked it up and didn't answer my silliness with rejection. I have a snarky sense of humor but in general I think study of the text is important, and I'm glad you checked it out. I have given the Bible study, and there's a lot in there that is relevant and wise.

God spoke to Abraham. Jepthah made a rash vow to God. There is a distinct difference in the delivery of the message of sacrifice. One is asked, the other is offered unwittingly. However, he is in Judges and is considered a Judge, tragic or not.

Literally it could be interpreted to mean "Every time someone's team wins the Super Bowl they could vow to God to sacrifice their daughter and there's no harm, no foul, God didn't punish Jepthah. As long as you feel bad about it, you're still worth honoring for your battle prowess. Don't sacrifice your boys. God might ask you to do that, but he doesn't really mean it. Besides, we need the boys for future Super Bowls." QUOTE ends......


Oh but I believe he did punish Jepthah. (Although hey I admit it what happened to his daughter sucked.) His daughter was his beloved child and there could be no offspring as she would die a virgin. In fact he ended his line by what he did. Plus he had to follow through with it. I still don't think it had anything to do with the sex of the children.

 

[Sean Renaud]

No way. Sauron doesn't have a wand. He can't even expelliarmus!

He doesn't need a wand muggle! He's got rings and he's so bad ass he nearly ended the world while trapped in a different dimension.

 

[Tryharder62]

I think for me when Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven, it's more descriptive of the "state of grace" and honor that someone experiences on earth among those who appreciate the actions taken to help others, and in the regard of God. Peace with your actions, knowing you've done your best with difficult circumstances. To not fear judgment or Gods nor men because you know you've done your best.

I'm not trying to be God. I'm trying to interpret all the ways to think of God and why. I think they all have reasons and value and the more attention I get to give to them, God or not, I learn about the humans I'm here with. How to live here with people of different ideas of what is most important.

I choose to strive toward my own heaven and grace here, and if I meet God later, I'll deal with it then. I don't need a promise of reward to realize that the actions that lead to loving thy neighbor as thyself or doing unto others are worth doing for themselves and not for the reward.

I can respect that.

 

[Recidiva]

Oh but I believe he did punish Jepthah. (Although hey I admit it what happened to his daughter sucked.) His daughter was his beloved child and there could be no offspring as she would die a virgin. In fact he ended his line by what he did. Plus he had to follow through with it. I still don't think it had anything to do with the sex of the children.

Well, which is it, does He punish us while we live or do our dumb actions punish us (or in this case, our children)? Was it an expression of free will that gained him no punishment?

No, it's certainly originally not intended to be about the sex of the child sacrificed. It's just hard for me to read it any other way. "He did WHAT?!"

It's like that passage about Nephelim. Giants? Wait, what? That might have been important...could we clarify?

 

[Recidiva]

He doesn't need a wand muggle! He's got rings and he's so bad ass he nearly ended the world while trapped in a different dimension.

All Voldemort has to do is not put the ring on.

No way. Voldemort wins. Even Wormtail could petrificus totalus a cave troll and not break a sweat.

 

[Recidiva]

I can respect that.

Yay! *scripture happy dance*

 

[phrodeau]

Another contrast between Jepthah and Abraham is that Abraham had more children. In fact, Ishmael was still alive when God lied and told Abraham that Isaac was Abraham's only son.

 

[Tryharder62]

Well, which is it, does He punish us while we live or do our dumb actions punish us (or in this case, our children)? Was it an expression of free will that gained him no punishment?

No, it's certainly originally not intended to be about the sex of the child sacrificed. It's just hard for me to read it any other way. "He did WHAT?!"

It's like that passage about Nephelim. Giants? Wait, what? That might have been important...could we clarify?

especially the last section.

 

[fair_warning]

I'd like to see some sort of empiric evidence that the sacrifice was worth it. The value of Jesus's life should have at least bought freedom from some of the plagues and floods and diseases and deaths of first born. Instead we got more of those.

God is obviously not into cost-benefit analysis evaluation of certain scenarios.

 

[Recidiva]

God is obviously not into cost-benefit analysis evaluation of certain scenarios.

Yeah. Poor God. Just created a world and obviously there's something...wrong with His creations.

Don't touch the tree, it's for your own goo- what the? (Can't even say what the hell or other words, the good slang hasn't been created yet.)

Okay, I'm going to flood you and then everything will be cool, right? We get a do over? "What's with all the trash, I just cleaned this place up!"

I don't blame God, if it hadn't been done yet anywhere else, perhaps a perfect being can't deal with imperfections in a sane way. God goes back to being perfect and leaving us to our inexplicable deal, calling us inexplicable, giving us free will to make it all neat and tied up in a bow, and goes on to create interesting geometry instead. Geometry doesn't talk.

 

[kbate]

especially the last section.

The Nephelim are somewhere between the Valar and the Vanyar of Tolkien's tales. Not quite human, not quite God - giant (either literal, virtual or spiritual) creatures who wandered the earth in early times, sort of the 'proto-human' or 'powers of the earth'. Angels who came to earth, or fallen heavenly powers.

Either way, no proof exists to show they existed.

I liked Tolkien's tale better than the bible, at least when Evil is overthrown in Tolkien, the world continues and isn't all singing at the feet of God.

 

[phrodeau]

The Nephelim are somewhere between the Valar and the Vanyar of Tolkien's tales. Not quite human, not quite God - giant (either literal, virtual or spiritual) creatures who wandered the earth in early times, sort of the 'proto-human' or 'powers of the earth'. Angels who came to earth, or fallen heavenly powers.

Either way, no proof exists to show they existed.

I liked Tolkien's tale better than the bible, at least when Evil is overthrown in Tolkien, the world continues and isn't all singing at the feet of God.

Oddly, the Bible tells us that there were Nephilim both before and after the Deluge.

 

[Recidiva]

The Nephelim are somewhere between the Valar and the Vanyar of Tolkien's tales. Not quite human, not quite God - giant (either literal, virtual or spiritual) creatures who wandered the earth in early times, sort of the 'proto-human' or 'powers of the earth'. Angels who came to earth, or fallen heavenly powers.

Either way, no proof exists to show they existed.

I liked Tolkien's tale better than the bible, at least when Evil is overthrown in Tolkien, the world continues and isn't all singing at the feet of God.

I also like the original stories of Jesus' life. He was a bit of a snot, vengeful and petty, eventually learning how to get on in the world with some care and compassion and use his gifts wisely.

That's how I read the Bible. The evolution of Man from self-centered origin stories and moving toward more care and compassion.

God's progresion is the same, though I just can't hang with the "absentee parent" philosophy about free will. If I left my teenage kids with the keys to the house and an expense account, going off to be all ephemeral, what exactly do I think is going to happen?

Same with Buddha. Couldn't you have been enlightened AFTER your son grew up? All this detachment from the mortal coil means there's a lot of neglected mortal coils.

I think you need to be engaged in real life as it is. If you have obligations to your family, children and community, fulfil them. If you create a bad situation, be responsible for its resolution.

I would feel morally wrong in following God's and Buddha's examples of behavior. I'm not going to pick "do as I say, not as I do" as a good answer to the question.

 

[Recidiva]

Oddly, the Bible tells us that there were Nephilim both before and after the Deluge.

Well...they were really...tall...and just did a lot of wading.

 

[Tryharder62]

The Nephelim are somewhere between the Valar and the Vanyar of Tolkien's tales. Not quite human, not quite God - giant (either literal, virtual or spiritual) creatures who wandered the earth in early times, sort of the 'proto-human' or 'powers of the earth'. Angels who came to earth, or fallen heavenly powers.

Either way, no proof exists to show they existed.

I liked Tolkien's tale better than the bible, at least when Evil is overthrown in Tolkien, the world continues and isn't all singing at the feet of God.

Thanks for explaining. I thought I was having an out of body experience.