Are you afraid to be a Christian?

[BlackSnake]

I beg to differ. Every church I have ever been to, and that's quite a few, taught that in order to be a proper christian you need to witness and profess your faith to anyone and everyone. Even their hymns tell you to shout it from the mountain tops. Most protestant doctrines teach that you have a higher place in heaven for proffessing your faith diligently. Therefore if you are afraid to proclaim yourself one of God's children, you are not a proper christian.

This is exactly why I find so many of the opinions posted her so interesting. Readers may think, this is what I should do if I am to be a “proper” Christian and have favor with God. Taken out of context, the bible can be interpretated to serve many purposes. Usually, it is to get people to believe and act on the words of the speaker. The above would be great if I wanted to build a larger congregation. Go out and spread to the word to all who will hear your voice. “The word is God.”

Now, if I wanted to fight fire with fire picking up my bible I might could discredit the notion by quoting some passages: MATTHEW 6:5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Oh, and I love this part: MATTHE 6:7-8 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

I’m just say….

…. "I don't believe in your god. He doesn't exist." You all scream, "BLASPHEMY!!!" You just fail to realise it's only blasphemy if you believe. You try to pass laws to force public schools to teach your faith for you.

It seems that Christians are not allow to practice their faith.

What gives christianity a bad name isn't the athiests. They could care less about you. What gives christians a bad name is the christians. I can tell you that every time one of them comes knocking on my door I get a little more preturbed. When my co-workers try to drag me into religious debates, I tell them, "I don't want to hear it." Do they stop and leave me alone? Hell, no. They chase me all though the damned building calling me a heathen and telling me I'm afraid of the wrath of a god I don't believe in. THAT is what gives christians a bad rap.

I think you are exaggerating, but it maybe a reason why some people might deny their faith.

The christian contingent really needs to learn to mind their own business and let those who don't share their faith live their own lives. After all the NON-christians have a constitutional right to Freedom from Religious Persecution.

The freedom from persecution you speak is from government.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Is it a legitimate answer to just say, "I don't know what I believe"?
I was raised Catholic, and for awhile in high school I was what they called a "Jesus Freak". I met my ex (and the mother of my son) in a play at the Jewish Community Center, and we were married in a Lutheran Church. When I was 10, I lived in Nigeria and had Muslim and pagan friends and respected elders. I got to see the Pyramids in Egypt, the Temple of Jupiter in Lebanon, the Acropolis and many churches and cathedrals in Europe. My son has many Morman friends and has hung out in the gym where they play pick-up basketball games.

I kind of think that "life" is a force, like gravity, and when enough of it gets concentrated, there's consciousness. And it's like the laws of thermodynamics, where there's a conservation of energy, so the life force continues somehow after you die, but I'm not sure if you retain some individuality or just sort of merge with a giant pool of life force, like a raindrop in an ocean. And if it's the latter, well, there doesn't seem much point in art or philosophy or imagination, so that would be kind of depressing. Maybe those are evolutionary goals of the life force, though, because the life force strives to be happy and not just personally successful.

Or maybe I just don't really understand where the "natural order" is going, has gone, or is at this moment.

Really, right now I'm just trying to keep my job and not go crazy. I want my son to have a good life, I love my parents in spite of it all, I have a strong dislike of financial institutions in general, but I hope I get the re-fi that I just applied for. I'd like to be in better physical condition, but I don't really want to give up drinking wine at the moment; I wish I was having sex from time to time with someone other than myself.

So, joining a religion would probably increase my chances of getting regular sex, based just on the numbers of exposing myself on a regular basis to a broader group of people. Plus, I wouldn't need to buy drinks. It's in faking the belief system where I get hung up.

Rather than a religion, I think I'd much prefer a thriving amateur theater community, and enough time to participate in it.

 

[Liar]

It seems that Christians are not allow to practice their faith.

I'm sorry, but however hard I try to bend reality around that statement, I can't make it fit. In what way are Christians not allowed to practice their faith? They should not be allowed to force their religion upon other people. Is that the same as not allowing them to practice their faith?

 

[oggbashan]

Polite witnessing

From time to time missionaries turn up on my doorstep.

I think they are either Mormons or Seventh Day Adventists.

They are invariably well-dressed and courteous.

Although they try hard to engage me in a discussion about their faith I send them away. They accept their dismissal with good grace.

The local Salvation Army people do many good works among the less fortunate in our community. They do not require that the recipients of their efforts have to believe, nor require that they express any belief. They witness for their faith by works.

Other organisations in our town work to help people - the Freemasons, the Round Table, Rotary, the various Churches, volunteers and specific charities. None of them expect the recipients of their help to be Christian or members of their particular organisation.

The Muslims and Jews also engage in charitable works. Usually those works are restricted to those of their faith, but not always. Members of both faiths unfortunately experience some prejudice and difficulty in obtaining help from the general community so they concentrate on their own first. They will and do work with other organisations for the general good of the community.

The only organisation that will NOT cooperate with others and reserves its help exclusively for its own is a minor Protestant Evangelical church. They regard everyone else as unredeemed sinners and that heaven is reserved only for their members obeying their strict interpretation of the Bible (King James) and the rest of us is going to Hell.

Except for them, I consider that all these organisations are behaving as Christians should - with apologies to the Jews and Muslims who behave that way because their faith suggests that they should.

It is harder to witness without preaching but perhaps more effective.

Og

 

[BlackSnake]

I'm sorry, but however hard I try to bend reality around that statement, I can't make it fit. In what way are Christians not allowed to practice their faith? They should not be allowed to force their religion upon other people. Is that the same as not allowing them to practice their faith?

Well, if the government forbids prayer in schools, then the government is preventing the free excercise of religious freedoms.

What I see that those opposing the excercise of religion in schools are preventing free thought and ideas in a place where it should be encouraged.

 

[Liar]

Well, if the government forbids prayer in schools, then the government is preventing the free excercise of religious freedoms.

What I see that those opposing the excercise of religion in schools are preventing free thought and ideas in a place where it should be encouraged.

Who is forbidding anybody to pray in school? If you as an individual want to save a prayer before shop class, go right ahead and pray. But don't demand that everybody else must pray with you. And if you're a Muslim, nobody should deny you the right to bow down to Mecca once in a while. But don't demand that everyone else does the same.

Mandatory prayers in school are being ruled out here and there. And should. Because banning that gives you exactly what you are saying: Free and most importantly, equally free, rights to excercise the religion of YOUR choice, not the school's choice.

If a school forbids all personal excercise of religion, that would however be over the top. And unconstitutional, probably.

Are they?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, if the government forbids prayer in schools, then the government is preventing the free excercise of religious freedoms.

What I see that those opposing the excercise of religion in schools are preventing free thought and ideas in a place where it should be encouraged.

Well, in that case, the schools should allow sexual intercourse in school, too- another exploration of free thought and ideas that should be encouraged.

There is a time and place for everything. Take your prayers to church, or other preferred place of worship. Learn your numbers and your ABC's in school.

Seriously, and as it's been pointed out time and again, the government prohibits the practice of school led prayer- as in, the administration is not allowed to tell every one in the school that it's time to pray to God now. The school is not allowed, in other words, to tell the students which religion to follow. If a kid wants to pray, and if he's not disrupting class by doing so, he has that right. If a kid wants to pray in a loud and public way, that disrupts the school day and intimidates other students, that's a discipline issue, disguised as religion.
The schools themselves get it wrong time and again, because they are run by ignoramuses, usually.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Who is forbidding anybody to pray in school? If you as an individual want to save a prayer before shop class, go right ahead and pray. But don't demand that everybody else must pray with you. And if you're a Muslim, nobody should deny you the right to bow down to Mecca once in a while. But don't demand that everyone else does the same.

Mandatory prayers in school are being ruled out here and there. And should. Because banning that gives you exactly what you are saying: Free and most importantly, equally free, rights to excercise the religion of YOUR choice, not the school's choice.

If a school forbids all personal excercise of religion, that would however be over the top. And unconstitutional, probably.

Are they?

Jinx, Liar!

 

[entitled]

An interesting note: A student can refuse to say the pledge of allegiance at the beginning of the school day if they are not christian, because the words 'under God' were added to it. Any retaliation by the school is considered discrimination.

 

[Stella_Omega]

An interesting note: A student can refuse to say the pledge of allegiance at the beginning of the school day if they are not christian, because the words 'under God' were added to it. Any retaliation by the school is considered discrimination.

throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as usual!

 

[entitled]

throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as usual!

Of course. But, imho, those two words never should have been added in the first place. It would have saved a lot of hassle.

 

[BlackSnake]

I really don't want this to go the way of politics, I know, I started it, but...I'm at work, so I can't think to hard on these things.

Do where teach our children to be ashamed of their beliefs? I'm not changing my faith, but what do we say to our children when they see us silenced? Will they loose faith in us?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Of course. But, imho, those two words never should have been added in the first place. It would have saved a lot of hassle.

Oh, but- hassle is exactly what was intended!
The phrase was meant to seperate the godless commies from the real patriots. No shades of grey, and certainly no sepreation of Church and State. I say the phrase is unconstitutional, and has no valid reason for remaining.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I really don't want this to go the way of politics, I know, I started it, but...I'm at work, so I can't think to hard on these things.

Do where teach our children to be ashamed of their beliefs? I'm not changing my faith, but what do we say to our children when they see us silenced? Will they loose faith in us?

I don't understand your question, Blacksnake. Should we teach our children to trumpet their religion to every passer-by on the street, lest they be deemed insufficiently religious?

 

[entitled]

Oh, but- hassle is exactly what was intended!
The phrase was meant to seperate the godless commies from the real patriots. No shades of grey, and certainly no sepreation of Church and State. I say the phrase is unconstitutional, and has no valid reason for remaining.

i'm with you. Let's start a petition and march on the capitol.

BS - i don't teach my kids to be ashamed of their religion, just of some of the people in it. Even if they are christians.

 

[Pure]

objection

Black Snake said Well, if the government forbids prayer in schools, then the government is preventing the free excercise of religious freedoms.

What I see that those opposing the excercise of religion in schools are preventing free thought and ideas in a place where it should be encouraged.

P replies: I don't the the US gov or its courts 'forbids prayer in schools' in the way you suggest.

It forbids having the teacher lead prayers "OK, we're all going to pray."
It forbids this even with an exception "OK, we're all going to pray, but those not wanting to can go wait in the hall."

I don't have the exact wording, but the holding of a quiet time specifically designed to facilitate praying is also disallowed. "OK, we're going to have a quiet time, and I and anyone who wants to can pray silently, and anyone not wanting to pray can simply remain quiet and think of what they please."

But of course, the is no law stopping the offerings of silent prayers, or even the vocal prayers of students on their own time--e.g. at recess.

My only objection would be if any quiet time is excluded (I don't think it is.) IE I have no problem with "Let's all be quiet for a couple minutes. You may reflect, meditate, pray, think, or whatever you like."

PS. Why are many Xtians, particularly evangelical, so avid for persecution? (Is it that they want to follow what they take to be Christ's example; willingly accepting--perhaps even seeking-- 'persecution' to death for the sake of joining the Father?)

 

[Liar]

I really don't want this to go the way of politics, I know, I started it, but...I'm at work, so I can't think to hard on these things.

Do where teach our children to be ashamed of their beliefs? I'm not changing my faith, but what do we say to our children when they see us silenced? Will they loose faith in us?

The only way that Christians are "silenced" is that the excessive priviliges that they have enjoyed (mandatory Christian prayers in school is one of them), are being done away with. Privligies that in turn have silenced and discriminated against other religions for ages.

Silenced? I don't see it. No longer given the VIP fast lane treatment compared to other faiths? That I see.

And that I welcome. And as a believer in freedom of opinion, expression and religion, I see nothing wrong with that. Christian complaints about that is on par with male complaints about gender equality or white folks' complaints about racial equality.

Just becuse the government is not helping you shout anymore does not mean that they are silencing you. That only means that they're trying to be fair to all.

Teach your kids to stand up for their beliefs. Why shouldn't you? But please, also teach them to respect other people's beliefs.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Christ seemed clear to me on the topic of those Pharisees who wished to pray loudly and publically. He said that the better example was the honest, pious man who prayed quietly at home and led an upright life. I take that to mean that even Christ wouldn't object to schools asking students to keep their prayers personal and inobstrusive and to not distract or harangue other students. There is, as Stella notes, a time and a place for all things, and school is the time and the place for learning math, science, languages, history, and life skills. It's important that people learn those things; Christ does not to me seem to expect or encourage his followers to render themselves or others useless to each other through lack of education.

Shanglan

 

[cloudy]

The only way that Christians are "silenced" is that the excessive priviliges that they have enjoyed (mandatory Christian prayers in school is one of them), are being done away with. Privligies that in turn have silenced and discriminated against other religions for ages.

Silenced? I don't see it. No longer given the VIP fast lane treatment compared to other faiths? That I see.

And that I welcome. And as a believer in freedom of opinion, expression and religion, I see nothing wrong with that. Christian complaints about that is on par with male complaints about gender equality or white folks' complaints about racial equality.

Just becuse the government is not helping you shout anymore does not mean that they are silencing you. That only means that they're trying to be fair to all.

Teach your kids to stand up for their beliefs. Why shouldn't you? But please, also teach them to respect other people's beliefs.

Exactly what I wanted to say, but couldn't. Thank you.

 

[Pure]

Ending the persecution of evangelical chaplains

Chaplains Group Opposes Prayer Order
Guarantee on Using Jesus's Name Not Needed, It Says

By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 30, 2006; Page A04

An association that represents more than 70 percent of the chaplains in the U.S. military, including many evangelical Christians, is opposing a demand by conservatives in Congress for a presidential order guaranteeing the right of chaplains to pray in the name of Jesus.

The rising calls for an executive order are based on "confusion and misinformation," because Christian chaplains routinely pray in the name of Jesus, in public, thousands of times a week in military chapels around the world, said the Rev. Herman Keizer Jr., chairman of the National Conference on Ministry to the Armed Forces.

"This has been portrayed as though chaplains are not allowed to pray in Jesus's name, without any distinction between what they do all the time in worship services and what they do occasionally, in ceremonial settings where attendance is mandatory," Keizer said.

Known by the initials NCMAF, Keizer's group is a private, 40-year-old association of more than 60 Christian, Jewish and Muslim denominations. It says it represents 5,430 of the 7,620 chaplains in the armed forces.

The calls for an executive order to protect the right to pray in Jesus's name have originated in large part from a rival association, the International Conference of Evangelical Chaplain Endorsers. Formed two years ago, it says it represents about 800 chaplains, exclusively from evangelical Christian churches.

The Rev. Billy Baugham, executive director of ICECE, said he was surprised by NCMAF's stand.

"It will just lead more evangelicals to leave them and join us," he said.

Prodded by complaints from ICECE, 74 members of Congress signed a letter to President Bush last fall saying that "it has come to our attention that in all branches of the military it is becoming increasingly difficult for Christian chaplains to use the name of Jesus when praying."

In December, Rep. Walter B. Jones (R-N.C.) and three other congressmen unveiled a supporting petition that has since swelled to more than 200,000 signatures. Calls for congressional hearings and an executive order have become a staple on religious radio and television broadcasts, generating protests of White House inaction by conservative Christians, who are usually strong supporters of Bush.

In a letter this month to the Senate Armed Services Committee, Keizer said NCMAF believes that an executive order is unnecessary because the military is "now effectively addressing the current religious concerns."

Keizer, a minister in the Christian Reformed Church of North America, a conservative Protestant denomination, retired in 2002 after 34 years as an Army chaplain. He said the armed services are gradually rolling out guidelines that set a path between "those who don't want any religion practiced in the military, and those who want religion practiced without any limits in the military." An executive order "would just precipitate more litigation," he said.

In a Feb. 21 instruction to commanders, the secretary of the Navy distinguished between prayers given by chaplains at "divine worship services" -- on which there are no restrictions -- and those delivered at "command functions" that people of many faiths are encouraged or required to attend.

"Absent extraordinary circumstances," any religious elements in a command ceremony "should be nonsectarian," it said. Air Force guidelines issued a few weeks earlier made essentially the same distinction, calling for "non-denominational, inclusive prayer" or a moment of silence at military ceremonies.

Keizer said NCMAF sees nothing wrong with a commander asking a chaplain to offer nonsectarian prayers at such events, as long as the chaplain can decline to participate, with no repercussions.

But Baugham said evangelical chaplains must represent the church that endorses them for military duty, and "they are not authorized to give nonsectarian prayers." He also said he does not believe that chaplains are truly free to pray as they wish in worship services.

"There are chaplains who get their knuckles rapped pretty hard, and we have documentation of this, for praying in Jesus's name in chapels," he said.

 

[Halo_n_horns]

I might be jumping back in at an improper point point here, but ...

There was some commentary earlier that I'm sure was directed towards a "label" that I had placed on religious followers, "Lemmings" I believe the term was. Lemmings are followers. It wasn't a judgement or a label so much as it was a definition. I use the term because it always brings out the people who are in some way insecure with their choices to follow something or some one based on disputable reasoning. Sorry if it offends or is considered disrespectful, but the simple truth is that if you're a follower, you're a ...

But in all fairness, there is the other side of the coin that no athiest or agnostic can really dispute. Simple questions. How do plants and trees know how to grow towards the sun? How do rocks know to stay solid and hard? How did animals know to adapt and evolve to survive in their environments? Instinct? Evolution? I heard one person say that "they just do." Idiot.

Ya ever watch one of those nature shows where they zoom in on some bearded-speckled-wire-hair-Indonesian-Afghani-Amazonian-rose-plucking moth, and they say something to the affect of, "Just look at the markings on that beut. They developed those markings to confuse their potential predators into thinking that they're actually looking at another larger animal that's looking back at them." How the fuck did they just develop those markings to ward off predators? I mean, one day two of these moths were hanging out and one got eaten by the rare long-haired chameleon, and the other moth suddenly thought to itself, "Self, I better change the way I look so my ass doesn't get eaten!" ... ???

So what the fuck is my point here?! There's a huge difference between being religious and being spiritual. There's a greater ease in knowing that everything has a natural order to it, and that natural order had to get there somehow, than there is in taking a leap of faith on dishing my whole life up to a deity and His son, while neither of which can seem to get their existences proven. Evolution is a natural function of everything and everyone, but how did that function get into everything and everyone? Intelligent Design? Yeah, right. Walk down the sidewalk of any city and look at the people you're walking with. There's no doubt in my mind that you'll find a number of examples of very Unintelligent Design on a variety of levels. Better yet, look at a picture of a platypus:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/scribblygum/july2004/img/f_closeup.jpg
Its the only poisoness mammal on the face of the planet, by the way. Probably just to add to the confusion.

I've lived my life with a number of truths that I keep dear. The one that umbrellas all of them is that change is the only constant, and therefore change is paradoxical unto itself. What if Change/Evolution is the real deity, the real governing source of all there is?

On another note, faculty-led prayer is supposed to be banned from public schools because public schools are government agencies. Its in our Constitution that there shall be no mixing of church and state, and public schools belong to the state. The freedom of religion/expression argument, in this instance, is null and void because of our own constitution.

Someone else brought up practicing one's religion in the proper place(s) and at the proper time(s). No matter what your religion, its practicing belongs in your home, you personal lifestyle, and the proper buildings erected for the participation of said religion. There isn't a government building in the USA that should also be treated as a holy place. See the comment above above the constitution that our religious forefathers put together. They knew what kind of trouble could come about if this extremely wise portion of that little-known document wasn't included for future generations.

Sorry to wax-on/wax-off philosophical all over everyone. I guess I'm in a bit of a mood this evening.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Being a Pagan, I believe that the Gods (forces of Nature) directed things, though not necessarily in a conscious sense (although that possibility has occurred to me).

 

[BlackSnake]

I believe that the God I love, loves you even if you don't believe in him...

 

[entitled]

i believe that the God you worship (er... if you believe in God) is the same one i do, just using a pen name for your personal scripts.

 

[BlackShanglan]

i believe that the God you worship (er... if you believe in God) is the same one i do, just using a pen name for your personal scripts.

I tend to think much the same way. I hope that a divine omniscient and benevolent being has the good sense not to be too worried about some semi-evolved apes occasionally getting his name wrong.