Religious experience and eroticism.

[AG31]

I've had a long-standing interest in the connection between religious experience and erotic experience. My attitude toward both is positive, so I'm not interested in reports of abuse in fundamentalist homes or ministers taking advantage of parishioners or the ramifications of worshipping a god who wants to inflict pain. I've not tried to create a thread about this because most people aren't religious any more, and a lot are hostile. (That's OK, I'm not upset by on line hostility). Recently, though, I thought I'd post a thread just listing all my different thoughts about the subject, randomly, and ask if any of them rang a bell for anyone. And then @Kumquatqueen said this, "there's euphoric feelings that can be evoked by fasting (and, I'm told, the joy of religious communication and feeling blessed/saved), or by subspace or intense physical sensation". It was the kind of articulation I've been looking for for years. I'm putting "euphoric" into my list of "Aha words."

This has inspired me to go ahead with my "religion and eroticism post."

1 - I assume that Bernini and the painters of the many images of the martyrdom of St. Sebastian knew what they were doing when they sculpted The Ecstasy of St. Theresa and the St. Sebastian paintings. What I'm wondering is if Saints Theresa and Sebastian knew that they were experiencing something akin to sexual arousal. (Or just plain sexual arousal?) Here is how St. Theresa describes it.

I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's point there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting it at times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love of God.

What do you think? There are a fair number of academic writings on line about this topic, but I don't have the will to plow through them. Perhaps someone here has?

2 - Whether or not these religious figures made a conscious connection with sex, does anyone here have a theory as to why the human body can react in such similar ways to such different stimuli?

3 - My thoughts on this topic have centered almost completely on the M side of S&M. (I avoid the term BDSM because of its connotations of life style/relationships.) But now and again I read something that makes me think that religious people, engaging in vanilla sex, may experience the presence of God. Does that ring a bell for anyone?

4 - Some Christian traditions have the concept of Christocentric and Theocentric attitudes on the part of believers. (I don't know about being centered on the Holy Spirit... never heard of it, anyway.) I've always been Theocentric, but just recently, at age 80, I realized that this was, in part, because Christ (Jesus) is all about incarnation. Becoming a physical body. God made man. And Jesus' maleness got in the way of my religious impulses and so I just skipped him and went straight to God. It reminds me of how I was sort of embarrassed on behalf of a friend of mine who gushed about how affecting Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ was. I felt she was revealing more about herself than she knew. Does this make sense to anyone here?

As soon as I post this, I'll no doubt think of other things. But there you go. I need to leap, now that I've been nudged.

Hi, @gunhilltrain, here's the post I told you I was going to write.

 

[Bazzle]

I helped edit this one https://www.literotica.com/s/broken-salvation

 

[Kumquatqueen]

2 - Whether or not these religious figures made a conscious connection with sex, does anyone here have a theory as to why the human body can react in such similar ways to such different stimuli?

Look up 'sensory-seeking behaviour'. Some (maybe most?) people crave intense sensation (and may be repulsed by certain other sensations that most people find inoffensive). A stimulus is a stimulus.

 

[KeithD]

I'm sure that sexual frustration played a role in the instances you mention.

I've written some stories involving priest sex with some parallel to religious ecstasy experienced at the height of sex acts. I'm reading a Sharon Penman novel on Henry II and Eleanor--and their contentious sons--now in which there's a scene of Henry prostrating and scourging himself at the altar where Thomas Beckett was murdered. When reading that, a story idea of a priest scourging himself and then having another priest do it and the two of them then coupling in ecstasy arose and got tucked away as a story idea. A different time/setting/characters, though.

I've also harbored ideas of a GM Jesus and his flock story, although I've always thought of doing it in parallel--another time and another setting. I've been toying with this since the mid 70s, when I played Herod in a production of Jesus Christ Superstar. That was in Bangkok, and Bangkok being Bangkok, the production had a sexual/bi undercurrent in it in which there were sexual hints between everyone all the time in the rendering of the musical. That the cast was mixing it up in RL offstage added a dimension. I've always had a hankering to do something with that--but again another time and setting unless I decided to render it directly in the story happening during a production of JCS.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Look up 'sensory-seeking behaviour'. Some (maybe most?) people crave intense sensation (and may be repulsed by certain other sensations that most people find inoffensive). A stimulus is a stimulus.

I was trying to avoid thread drift, plus religious topics seem to belong on the General Board if anywhere here. But @AG31 went deeply into it. I'll probably have to rely on PM's to him to keep it out of AH. I guess I could send you links too if you are interested.

I will say that the theology side of it goes far beyond "sensory-seeking" role plays/fun and games. It involves grotesque tortures (although likely mostly fiction) that ultimately result in death.

P.S.: I noticed that he (or they?) started a new thread just for this. But politics and religion are two topics that cause a lot of controversy.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm reminded of the scene in The Grapes of Wrath where Jim Casey, the preacher, is explaining to Tom Joad that during services he would whip the crowd into a religious frenzy, and some of the young women would be whipped into a state of ecstasy, and he'd take one of the women and "lay with them." There is a connection.

People seek a state of ecstasy in different ways: sex, drugs, religion. The method is different but the result they seek often is the same.

 

[nice90sguy]

I've steered clear of voicing my opinions on this topic here, because I really don't want to risk offending non-atheists.

This is from one of my low-rated stories:

It was quiet there at that time, and cool, and peaceful. My head felt clearer in there. I sat at a pew right at the front, and took in the glorious décor. My eyes fell on the huge stained glass window, high above the altar. The sun illuminated it. And Mary, in the centre of that dazzling scene, looked to me exactly like Lucy; in fact she was Lucy.

I watched her, radiant, with precisely the same sense of hypnotised calm combined with intense sexual arousal, as when I worshipped Her online. The feeling was so identical, that I felt wonder, and also some relief, that my unusual fetish was not so peculiar; it was simply a desire for religious devotion, which lots of people feel. The sexual side of it didn't seem, to me anyway, in the least bit blasphemous: I figured that other guys got as turned on as me as they knelt before the Virgin Mary, but they were just too prudish to admit it.

An overwhelming urge came over me to pull out my dick, there in the church, and stroke myself to orgasm while Lucy/Mary watched me, with Her infinitely sad eyes, Her amused but indulgent smile playing on Her lips...

 

[yowser]

A line from my latest:

His expression was similar to the ones I saw on posters of saints' faces in the window of the local Catholic bookstore.

 

[madelinemasoch]

The philosopher Georges Bataille sees a connection between religious experience and sexual experience in that both violate individuality and plunge one into continuous being or ecstasy (which literally means “outside of oneself”, not just a word for intense pleasure sensations). I see the same linkage. Both avenues of religion and eroticism connect one to the oneness of being.

 

[jehoram]

From Athalia's "The Path of Pain" about a woman who tortures herself to ecstasy in a quasi-religious ritual:

"She was not a believer in any gods but the gods of her private pain, but her strict Catholic upbringing, with its memories of priests swinging the censers as they proceeded down the aisles of the church, suggested that these new gods of hers might appreciate the gesture as well. Her childhood church had been filled with images of tortured people -- Jesus being flogged by Pilate's soldiers, Saint Sebastian with blood streaming from a hundred arrow wounds, and the large cross over the altar, showing a life-size Jesus with blood flowing from his hands and feet and side in loving detail. The nuns had taught her that in the Middle Ages, pious people whipped themselves to ecstasy in the firm belief that God approved of pain, particularly when it was self-administered. At the time, she thought that was strange. Not now.

"In college, she took a course in medieval art and came across a picture of a woman being martyred. The woman's face was transfigured into a mask of ecstatic agony as her breasts, seized by red-hot tongs and stretched out from her chest, were being sliced away by a swordsman. It was when she saw that image that she recalled the lessons of her childhood and felt the stirrings of wetness between her legs and a tightening of her brassiere, as if her own breasts were swelling in response to the prospect of pain. She closed the book quickly and thrust it away, but the image stayed with her, and for days she could think of nothing else. That was ten years ago. But it was that picture that would shortly guide her down the path of pain. Now nothing remained of that Catholic schoolgirl but the incense, the love of ritual, and the sanctifying pain."

The whole story is here: https://www.literotica.com/s/the-path-of-pain

 

[HeyAll]

Interesting topic, I've always been fascinated by it, but I don't have much of my own original thoughts to contribute, other than I think the two topics are linked.

I'm also a huge fan of Leonard Cohen and his lyrics, more than anyone, blend the two topics better than anyone.

For Cohen, there is no conflict between popular culture and profound thinking, and no difference between Judaism and Christianity, says Freedman. “He sees them as all part of the same thing.” Sex and religion are also often closely intertwined in his songs: “In the Kabbalah, sex and procreation are holy acts. They symbolise the union of human and divine.” In one version of Hallelujah Cohen wrote, the narrator recalls: “I moved in you, and the holy dove she was moving too, and every single breath we drew was Hallelujah.”

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...en-mined-sacred-texts-for-lyrics-to-his-songs

 

[LoneMilf]

If you choose to include spiritual experiences as well (not just religious), then I guess the obvious link is in Tantric sex. I've only managed to enjoy the physical aspects of that myself, but some use it as a tool to get experiences far beyond that.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

To be honest, nothing makes me feel less erotic than thinking about religion. I am mostly talking about the two very restrictive, monotheistic, dominant religions of the world - Christianity and Islam. Somehow, in my mind, eroticism is deeply intertwined with the sense of freedom, with the lack of guilt, which is the opposite of what these two religions preach. There are old, polytheistic religions that were much more open in the sense of sexual freedom, so some of them can stir some interesting thoughts in me. The Greek Mythology, for example, has some very interesting stories.
The ancients did it better

 

[LoneMilf]

To be honest, nothing makes me feel less erotic than thinking about religion. I am mostly talking about the two very restrictive, monotheistic, dominant religions of the world - Christianity and Islam. Somehow, in my mind, eroticism is deeply intertwined with the sense of freedom, with the lack of guilt, which is the opposite of what these two religions preach. There are old, polytheistic religions that were much more open in the sense of sexual freedom, so some of them can stir some interesting thoughts in me. The Greek Mythology, for example, has some very interesting stories.
The ancients did it better

Most of the older religions are centered around fertility and the creation of life - plenty of fodder for interesting thoughts

 

[StillStunned]

I spent ten years of my life surrounded by priests and monks. I have not a single erotic association with anything involving the Catholic church.*

* Not that I'm saying that the Catholic church has anything to do with religion.

 

[Mastered_again]

I have one story I've posted that while not deeply religious, leads to a sort of pagan sexual ritual role playing game between the MMC and MFC - all precipitated by a fortune cookie. All done in fun, no great social commentary. The Oracle

In the chapter currently under construction the same characters delve into the repressions of modern religion and legal systems (yes, intertwined at times with religious mores dictating laws created to suppress individuality) with Social Media fueling the right/wrong fire. Again, not a deep discussion of the subject, it just making a convenient vehicle to drive the Professor/Schoolgirl role play that's the "main event."

Edit to add: My apologies if this went off topic

 

[Mastered_again]

I spent ten years of my life surrounded by priests and monks. I have not a single erotic association with anything involving the Catholic church.*

* Not that I'm saying that the Catholic church has anything to do with religion.

For my Mr., it was only 5 years, and whatever you do, don't get him started on the evils perpetuated on the world by organized religion for the purification of mankind

 

[nice90sguy]

I'd get on with your Mr.

For my Mr., it was only 5 years, and whatever you do, don't get him started on the evils perpetuated on the world by organized religion for the purification of mankind

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I've had a long-standing interest in the connection between religious experience and erotic experience. My attitude toward both is positive, so I'm not interested in reports of abuse in fundamentalist homes or ministers taking advantage of parishioners or the ramifications of worshipping a god who wants to inflict pain. I've not tried to create a thread about this because most people aren't religious any more, and a lot are hostile. (That's OK, I'm not upset by on line hostility). Recently, though, I thought I'd post a thread just listing all my different thoughts about the subject, randomly, and ask if any of them rang a bell for anyone. And then @Kumquatqueen said this, "there's euphoric feelings that can be evoked by fasting (and, I'm told, the joy of religious communication and feeling blessed/saved), or by subspace or intense physical sensation". It was the kind of articulation I've been looking for for years. I'm putting "euphoric" into my list of "Aha words."

This has inspired me to go ahead with my "religion and eroticism post."

1 - I assume that Bernini and the painters of the many images of the martyrdom of St. Sebastian knew what they were doing when they sculpted The Ecstasy of St. Theresa and the St. Sebastian paintings. What I'm wondering is if Saints Theresa and Sebastian knew that they were experiencing something akin to sexual arousal. (Or just plain sexual arousal?) Here is how St. Theresa describes it.


What do you think? There are a fair number of academic writings on line about this topic, but I don't have the will to plow through them. Perhaps someone here has?

2 - Whether or not these religious figures made a conscious connection with sex, does anyone here have a theory as to why the human body can react in such similar ways to such different stimuli?

3 - My thoughts on this topic have centered almost completely on the M side of S&M. (I avoid the term BDSM because of its connotations of life style/relationships.) But now and again I read something that makes me think that religious people, engaging in vanilla sex, may experience the presence of God. Does that ring a bell for anyone?

4 - Some Christian traditions have the concept of Christocentric and Theocentric attitudes on the part of believers. (I don't know about being centered on the Holy Spirit... never heard of it, anyway.) I've always been Theocentric, but just recently, at age 80, I realized that this was, in part, because Christ (Jesus) is all about incarnation. Becoming a physical body. God made man. And Jesus' maleness got in the way of my religious impulses and so I just skipped him and went straight to God. It reminds me of how I was sort of embarrassed on behalf of a friend of mine who gushed about how affecting Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ was. I felt she was revealing more about herself than she knew. Does this make sense to anyone here?

As soon as I post this, I'll no doubt think of other things. But there you go. I need to leap, now that I've been nudged.

Hi, @gunhilltrain, here's the post I told you I was going to write.

Not being familiar with the sculpture, I clicked the link and was immediately confused, as what I saw was seriously cropped and in a very interesting way, especially because of the watermark...

 

[AG31]

Not being familiar with the sculpture, I clicked the link and was immediately confused, as what I saw was seriously cropped and in a very interesting way, especially because of the watermark...

Dunno why yours was cropped this way. I tested my link and saw the full sculpture. Google Images it.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Not being familiar with the sculpture, I clicked the link and was immediately confused, as what I saw was seriously cropped and in a very interesting way, especially because of the watermark...

I'm pretty sure an artistic depiction of this sculpture is the cover art to Bataille's book on Eroticism

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Dunno why yours was cropped this way. I tested my link and saw the full sculpture. Google Images it.

Just the way it was situated in the frame when it came up. Cropped the way it is, and with the way the water mark lines up with the fold on the gown, it sorta looks like he’s pissing on her.

 

[Llehlla]

I've had a long-standing interest in the connection between religious experience and erotic experience. My attitude toward both is positive, so I'm not interested in reports of abuse in fundamentalist homes or ministers taking advantage of parishioners or the ramifications of worshipping a god who wants to inflict pain. I've not tried to create a thread about this because most people aren't religious any more, and a lot are hostile. (That's OK, I'm not upset by on line hostility). Recently, though, I thought I'd post a thread just listing all my different thoughts about the subject, randomly, and ask if any of them rang a bell for anyone. And then @Kumquatqueen said this, "there's euphoric feelings that can be evoked by fasting (and, I'm told, the joy of religious communication and feeling blessed/saved), or by subspace or intense physical sensation". It was the kind of articulation I've been looking for for years. I'm putting "euphoric" into my list of "Aha words."

This has inspired me to go ahead with my "religion and eroticism post."

1 - I assume that Bernini and the painters of the many images of the martyrdom of St. Sebastian knew what they were doing when they sculpted The Ecstasy of St. Theresa and the St. Sebastian paintings. What I'm wondering is if Saints Theresa and Sebastian knew that they were experiencing something akin to sexual arousal. (Or just plain sexual arousal?) Here is how St. Theresa describes it.


What do you think? There are a fair number of academic writings on line about this topic, but I don't have the will to plow through them. Perhaps someone here has?

2 - Whether or not these religious figures made a conscious connection with sex, does anyone here have a theory as to why the human body can react in such similar ways to such different stimuli?

3 - My thoughts on this topic have centered almost completely on the M side of S&M. (I avoid the term BDSM because of its connotations of life style/relationships.) But now and again I read something that makes me think that religious people, engaging in vanilla sex, may experience the presence of God. Does that ring a bell for anyone?

4 - Some Christian traditions have the concept of Christocentric and Theocentric attitudes on the part of believers. (I don't know about being centered on the Holy Spirit... never heard of it, anyway.) I've always been Theocentric, but just recently, at age 80, I realized that this was, in part, because Christ (Jesus) is all about incarnation. Becoming a physical body. God made man. And Jesus' maleness got in the way of my religious impulses and so I just skipped him and went straight to God. It reminds me of how I was sort of embarrassed on behalf of a friend of mine who gushed about how affecting Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ was. I felt she was revealing more about herself than she knew. Does this make sense to anyone here?

As soon as I post this, I'll no doubt think of other things. But there you go. I need to leap, now that I've been nudged.

Hi, @gunhilltrain, here's the post I told you I was going to write.

I’m unable to get into this conversation although I’d like to. I will say read some of the poetry by Hafiz;
Each One of them can be read as expressions of human romance/passion and the desire for physical union as well as the the Divine romance and the desire for union with God. Beautiful, beautiful poetry. In my spiritual life, it only makes sense that the ecstasy of awakening as one with the Divine should be mirrored in infinite ripples throughout every layer of creation.

Please forgive typos and awkward phrasing. I had to dictate this message due to Hand damage.

 

[mrs_mackenzie]

There's an obvious parallel between the erotic sensation of confessing those sexual acts which we can't be open about, and confessing sins in the Catholic tradition. Both break a barrier in society of speaking of things which ought not to be spoken of.

There's also the repressive element: repressed religious feelings (whether for or against) and repressed sexual feelings. There's the sensation of relief and release when one can be open about these things among like-minded individuals. 'Finding God' can be like 'finding your soulmate', romantically and sexually, both events releasing the repressed feelings.

Finally the 'ecstatic element', notwithstanding the martyrdoms, I think is related to the nourishment of the soul. Being intimate and close with another human, and being intimate and close with God, are naturally alike. Both of these things 'speak' to our inner humanity in a way material things do not, typically.

Whether this contributes anything to someone's erotic story ideas, I have no idea, but all three seen fun to play around with and explore.

 

[AG31]

I'm pretty sure an artistic depiction of this sculpture is the cover art to Bataille's book on Eroticism

Thanks. I've put in a request to the library. His erotica doesn't work for me, but this looks like I ought to at least take a peek.