Am I really the only person who finds

[AngelaSaxon]

When you get 50% of people in a survey thinking choking is an okay thing to do, are you surprised?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-08/young-people-choking-during-sex-research-safety/104909998

I was really confused for a moment, like, why's this person being so negative about choking someone?!

Then I read the article you linked to and everything suddenly becomes clear, it's like, my bad, I'm an idiot, I didn't realise you meant during sex!

 

[subdudeme13]

I was really confused for a moment, like, why's this person being so negative about choking someone?!

Then I read the article you linked to and everything suddenly becomes clear, it's like, my bad, I'm an idiot, I didn't realise you meant during sex!

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I have been choked a couple of times and what scared me was how much it turned me on. I have a kink for knives too.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Ok I've entirely avoided the many many works of DickThePimp, because of my closed minded lack of interest in the sexual possibilities of incest or being pissed and vomited on, or of WWE wrestlers.

But one of his stories came up in my now-weekly read of the 'Random Stories' section of the NC/R page.

'Really Bad Santa'
https://www.literotica.com/s/really-bad-santa

And it's certainly not conforming to the tropes dominant in the NC/R section, at least in the usual ways they're understood and performed.

I mean, the protagonist of this first person narrative does mention that his victim has an orgasm at one point... in the midst of being punched in the face so hard that she becomes unconscious (this actually happens twice - the punching her unconscious I mean, not the orgasm).

It's one of the most 'technical' of 'technically fitting into what people think are the rules' stories I've read, but does confirm my impression that the more unserious a story is, the more it's possible to write beyond assumed limits - in this case in a very over-the-top way.

It's hardly erotica vérité...

My other impression, that a writer could probably get away with stretching things further in this way a bunch of years ago, is maybe difficult to quantify, especially given that I'm now doing less work toward a statistically significant survey of the NC/R section than I was even a month ago...

 

[AngelaSaxon]

The only other one I read today was a guy whose partner had been unenthusiastic about having sex with him ever since he'd slipped her ecstasy and had anal sex against her will.

He does it again, slipping her drugs and forcing her to take his dick in her ass, and of course eventually she loves it and I kid you not, this is how it ends, the happy ending after his happy ending:

"That felt so good baby, I'm glad you were so persistent." Ali kissed him and then whispered into his ear, "You can have my ass anytime."

Apparently the dominant male fantasy expressed here is often not just getting away with sexual opportunism, but the fantasy world of converting women to whatever you want via rape-that-retrospectively-isn't-because-they'll-love-it, which frequently involves stories concluding with exactly such incredibly badly written final declarations. Like really really frequently.

It retrospectively changes the entire story, as suddenly you realise the woman had a severe acquired brain injury all along, and this story is a subtle but powerful attack on people romanticising abuse of the infantilised...or else is an example of it... take your pick...

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Oh, I came across an Ashson NC/R story, The Principal, because it appeared in the 'Random Stories' section of that page, which followed his usual tropes as I've discussed but with the addition of one line at the very end: she - the rape-victim-who-ends-up-vigorously-pushing-up-to-meet-the-rspist-and-has-a-spectacular-orgasm - does turn around in the final line and punch him in the face.

https://www.literotica.com/s/the-principal-5

The comments.were split with just over half praising that ending but just under half seemingly very bitterly hostile to that happening. Not what they were used to in, you know, hundreds of his usual NC/R stories I guess. (Everyone on both sides recognised how out of character it was - that single line was the biggest topic of discussion by far.)

So his calculations of audience response, if perhaps unadventurous, do have a logic at work - writing for an overwhelmingly male audience, especially if you generally include all the anonymous commenters writing very unconvincingly as if they're women, he knows what the most passionate want.

Even literary porn is often determined by what the most passionate minority wants and what the less invested majority will put up with.

 

[HBuff]

I've been myself the culprit of this trope. Forced orgasm needs a lot of thought for it to work. If it's done well, the rape scene will come across as more vivid and powerful.

Just in a recent story, I first made the classical mistake, with a character portrayed by young Ann Blyth so maybe I got distracted. When I rewrote it, she was experiencing "mechanical climaxes" in the arms of mutinied soldiers who just stormed the palace, as her body responded in a host of different ways in order to survive the ordeal. She hates it! She curses against the men, against her fate. And they laugh upon hearing the change in her whimpers as she experiences one such physical climax that only accentuates her sense of horror and disgust, especially against herself. She is far from pleased! It's the opposite. Her sense of humiliation can only be conjectured.

It is very challenging to pull off. And it would be best to not have to do this systematically, but the rules are the rules... Even experienced authors will sometimes go over the top. This is a very, very fine line to walk.

Another thing that really irks me are the forced fellatios. Why on earth would a rapist want to put his thing right where her muscles are the strongest? Yes, forced fellatio or irrumatio do happen, but some conditions have to be met first, and when my story is about a mutiny of soldiers who then proceed to gang-rape the wives and adult daughters/nieces, those conditions are clearly not met when the soldiers are ripping their clothes off, and anyway, they are all bent on owning their vaginas first, possibly with the powerless husband/father watching.

It's only when a girl is terrified into obedience, or outright exhausted and her jaw is properly held, usually by an accomplice, that such things as forced oral may happen. Or not. If I were an Indian sepoy in 1857, just the notion of seeing the Colonel's daughter topless would be wild enough and it must have been quite an incredible thrill to ejaculate -- yes, just that -- to ejaculate on her tits, her face... and then wipe my cock in her hair. I would emphasize how elated they feel, the rush of adrenaline, etc., and the long and generous ropes of semen they spew when they give the gloss of shame. If my scene works, there's no need for those sepoys to risk their cocks inside the mouth of a girl who'd rather die than be raped by non-White men.

I just saw a painting that is worth 10,000 words. The sepoys are winning, and this young husband is shooting himself through the brain. Now for Literotica, let's just say he didn't have the courage to kill his young wife and she fainted. There's little doubt as to what the sepoys are going to do with her. I did not include this painting here because there's a dead child right beside the young wife and this is a big no-no on Literotica. I stumbled into it by googling The Year of the Sepoy Revolt.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

There's definitely a few very specific elements of a NC/R story that are reproduced almost verbatim in a decent percentage of the works here, the most common of which might be:

(he feels her crotch) "Ah ha! She's wet! What a slut! She loves it because she's a slut and she's wet because she's a slut, what a slut!" (laughter all around if there's a bunch of people, otherwise: she hangs her head in shame/can't meet his eyes because she knows it's true, she is a slut!)

There's a few authorial choices at that point about how she effectively takes on the perspective of the attacker, whose viewpoint is usually fairly unsubtly vindicated - about her, about female sexuality, about women and submission, etcetera.

She becomes a completely different person suddenly because she's been raped into authenticity, the truth within etcetera.

The writer I was specifically talking about just before, Ashson, actually doesn't do the weird gloating-because-your-vagina-lubricated-so-you're-a-slut thing as such, getting wet is just part of how women will get wet and excited if the rapist touches their genitals, and they'll start actively participating because we in truth barely perceive object permanence...

The versions in which prolonged brutal gang rapes happen have a different range of ways of representing female subjectivity...a whole different set of problems, some of which you've gestured toward...

Reality is obviously only of limited relevance in these discussions, but women being raped can lubricate, as women do in many sexual situations other than just being so very excited.

And women being raped can have an orgasm. Apparently that fact means the orgasms in question are mind-blowing and life-changing; accounts of actual survivors don't seem to entirely fit with this portrayal...

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Oh, I came across an Ashson NC/R story, The Principal, because it appeared in the 'Random Stories' section of that page, which followed his usual tropes as I've discussed but with the addition of one line at the very end: she - the rape-victim-who-ends-up-vigorously-pushing-up-to-meet-the-rspist-and-has-a-spectacular-orgasm - does turn around in the final line and punch him in the face.

https://www.literotica.com/s/the-principal-5

The comments.were split with just over half praising that ending but just under half seemingly very bitterly hostile to that happening. Not what they were used to in, you know, hundreds of his usual NC/R stories I guess. (Everyone on both sides recognised how out of character it was - that single line was the biggest topic of discussion by far.)

So his calculations of audience response, if perhaps unadventurous, do have a logic at work - writing for an overwhelmingly male audience, especially if you generally include all the anonymous commenters writing very unconvincingly as if they're women, he knows what the most passionate want.

Even literary porn is often determined by what the most passionate minority wants and what the less invested majority will put up with.

Someone asked me - and I don't think they were being nice lol - if I hate Ashson so much, why do I keep reading him and talking about his work?

The easy answer would be, for this project of trying to understand how writers here negotiate female subjectivity in NC/R fiction.

But that's only a very partial answer.

The truth is, I don't hate Ashson. I'm probably one of his bigger fans. And I want to like his works as erotic fiction. I want to... but over 99% of the time, I can't.

He's not exactly Joyce, but, as a wannabe-guilty-pleasure goes, I like his humour, his playfulness, his light-hearted approach to NC/R fiction.

Yes some of his tropes can be annoying, certainly repetitive, characters sometimes smug in the course of being vindicated being actually wrong, but what matters for me most, negatively, is that his central women, at exactly the moment each story seeks to be most erotic, often suddenly become unrecognisable as women and, if they were real, become people for whom I have a genuine contempt.

It severs my identification at the exact moment I need that identification for the stories to work as erotic fiction.

I realise this is less of an issue for the predominantly male audience. Or not an issue at all apparently - quite the opposite, the acquired brain injury instant-reversal weak-mindedness is often the preferred male fantasy of women in this genre it seems.

I don't have a problem with NC/R fiction, but do we ALL have to be so completely pathetic?

I know, I know, it's not for me...

So the writer I could and in some ways do enjoy a great deal, a very prolific author of stories I can often enjoy every way excerpt erotically, consistently leaves me with a frustrating aversion to his central women characters instead of erotic enjoyment. I don't think that's deliberate. But it's unchangingly present, and The Principal is only an exception because of one line - otherwise she reacts to being attacked fitting the exact same patterns.

Unless you ignore the goal of creating sexual excitement and arousal as part of literary erotica, it's difficult to write critically about pornographic fiction without also at least implicitly talking about what works for you, sexually, in such fiction - your very personal tastes in erotic fiction, at least, if not sexual tastes more broadly.

You can just act as if we all have the same tastes really, and launch criticism as if that's the case, but if not there's always the possibility that what feels like criticism of a work just reflects that other people have different tastes.

So yes, a huge portion of NC/R fiction here seems written solely for a particular tendency of male fantasy, or for the portion of women with tastes that significantly overlap with, for example, these specific somewhat fantastical notions about what women really are.

Hundreds and hundreds of stories about men confident that a woman will not only be turned on by sexual assault, but will find their inner desire for sexual subservience - and often not only find their inner desire for sexual subordination, but their desire to be subordinated to their attacker specifically, and not just during sex but in all of life. Hundreds of stories in which men have these assumptions and in every case amazingly are right!

What are the odds?

There's a particular, comparatively well-written story on this site - 'Sharing is Caring' by RabbleLaid - in which a woman is discovered tied down, and then sexually assaulted, and finds herself highly aroused by effectively sexual domination by her attacker, who then leaves her tied up so that her boyfriend can find her naked with his semen leaking from between the legs he left tied down and spread - an act of petty vengeance because her boyfriend had kept eating her attacker's food out of the shared fridge. I.e. the story ended with her being badly screwed over again by her attacker, not just fucked but fucked over.

That petty revenge is in a real sense the point of the story, connecting the title, interpersonal conflicts and conclusion.

Make no mistake: this story isn't exactly my preferred NC/R subgenre, but I like it, I think it's funny and erotic in ways that work together to make me uncomfortable - not disgusted, but uncomfortable. And despite the narrative overlapping with some tropes I've written about in this thread, I didn't end up feeling like the woman had to become absurd and pathetic for the story to work.

In some ways the story is like the better written erotic fiction version of that movie Revenge of the Nerds, if the groups are embodied in single characters. The over-the-top sexual revenge of the nerds on the sorority girls. As in the movie, the girl who is raped is at that exact moment being fucked over by the guy beyond just the rape (in both movie and story experienced as good sex). In the movie, other nerds are simultaneously making money selling naked photos of the girl, still images taken from video of her naked taken without permission. (In the original movie script I read to write comparisons with this Literotica story, the nerds are selling naked photos of ALL the sorority girls, as a profit-maximising strategy, but in the movie as released it's just the girl in question.)

But to the credit of the story, it doesn't follow the movie by having the girl who is raped immediately falling in love with her rapist.

The comments for the story, however, were overwhelmingly dominated by guys talking about their desire for a sequel story in which this would become a continuing relationship of his domination, the relationship of attacker and victim, because every one commenting assumed that having had an orgasm as a result of nonconsensual sex with dom-sub overtones, of course this meant she'd be his slave in all matters.

Not only was that not implied by the story, the end of the story only fully works if both the attacked woman and her boyfriend emotionally experience that petty revenge - an act of complete contempt for her and her wellbeing, as well as an act primarily directed against her boyfriend, and in both cases hardly unsubtle.

But all these guys commenting didn't seem able to even see this, didn't seem able to understand the story, because the fantasy of the woman being forced to find out she irrationally wants to be a slave was just projected onto the story instead.

Very partially I think that's because, as I suspect is the case also with the author of that story, I don't think a male author or male fans of such a story are likely to even consider what would be more likely to be obvious to women: leaving a woman tied up having obviously being fucked to be found by her boyfriend in conventional heterosexual monogamous coupledom is a very dangerous thing to do even if she's obviously been raped.

Men don't tend to realise that for women, telling your partner that you've been sexually assaulted is often a very far from safe thing to do. If there's the slightest hint that you might have cum, or been anything less than violently resisting the entire time, those risks go up, but those risks are there regardless.

If your partner is even slightly the jealous type, not only wouldn't you want him to find out you've been raped when you're tied up and gagged, for maximum safety you'd want to do it when other people are around, or via email.

Women are regularly subject to verbal and psychological abuse, if not physical violence, by partners who've discovered they're recent victims of sexual violence. The moment their partner finds out they've been sexually assaulted is quite often the moment a woman discovers how abusive their partner can be.

If the partners are from particular cultures, there are ways people understand these ideas, up to and including 'honor killing', but those are just specific terms for phenomena familiar to many women, to all women who've worked in rape crisis organisations, but phenomena rendered almost invisible in 'the West' more broadly.

The story I'm talking about is too light in tone to be dealing with those realities, and I'm in no way suggesting that it should have - this isn't a criticism of that work - it's just a context that automatically comes into my head in a way I very much doubt happens to guys reading it.

And for the guys who read the story and commented, there was such a strong desire that the fucked over woman not recognise this reality, that she become utterly subordinated, that there's definitely a shared and quite dogmatic fantasy at work.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Someone asked me - and I don't think they were being nice lol - if I hate Ashson so much, why do I keep reading him and talking about his work?

The easy answer would be, for this project of trying to understand how writers here negotiate female subjectivity in NC/R fiction.

But that's only a very partial answer.

The truth is, I don't hate Ashson. I'm probably one of his bigger fans. And I want to like his works as erotic fiction. I want to... but over 99% of the time, I can't.

He's not exactly Joyce, but, as a wannabe-guilty-pleasure goes, I like his humour, his playfulness, his light-hearted approach to NC/R fiction.

Yes some of his tropes can be annoying, certainly repetitive, characters sometimes smug in the course of being vindicated being actually wrong, but what matters for me most, negatively, is that his central women, at exactly the moment each story seeks to be most erotic, often suddenly become unrecognisable as women and, if they were real, become people for whom I have a genuine contempt.

It severs my identification at the exact moment I need that identification for the stories to work as erotic fiction.

I realise this is less of an issue for the predominantly male audience. Or not an issue at all apparently - quite the opposite, the acquired brain injury instant-reversal weak-mindedness is often the preferred male fantasy of women in this genre it seems.

I don't have a problem with NC/R fiction, but do we ALL have to be so completely pathetic?

I know, I know, it's not for me...

So the writer I could and in some ways do enjoy a great deal, a very prolific author of stories I can often enjoy every way excerpt erotically, consistently leaves me with a frustrating aversion to his central women characters instead of erotic enjoyment. I don't think that's deliberate. But it's unchangingly present, and The Principal is only an exception because of one line - otherwise she reacts to being attacked fitting the exact same patterns.

Unless you ignore the goal of creating sexual excitement and arousal as part of literary erotica, it's difficult to write critically about pornographic fiction without also at least implicitly talking about what works for you, sexually, in such fiction - your very personal tastes in erotic fiction, at least, if not sexual tastes more broadly.

You can just act as if we all have the same tastes really, and launch criticism as if that's the case, but if not there's always the possibility that what feels like criticism of a work just reflects that other people have different tastes.

So yes, a huge portion of NC/R fiction here seems written solely for a particular tendency of male fantasy, or for the portion of women with tastes that significantly overlap with, for example, these specific somewhat fantastical notions about what women really are.

Hundreds and hundreds of stories about men confident that a woman will not only be turned on by sexual assault, but will find their inner desire for sexual subservience - and often not only find their inner desire for sexual subordination, but their desire to be subordinated to their attacker specifically, and not just during sex but in all of life. Hundreds of stories in which men have these assumptions and in every case amazingly are right!

What are the odds?

There's a particular, comparatively well-written story on this site - 'Sharing is Caring' by RabbleLaid - in which a woman is discovered tied down, and then sexually assaulted, and finds herself highly aroused by effectively sexual domination by her attacker, who then leaves her tied up so that her boyfriend can find her naked with his semen leaking from between the legs he left tied down and spread - an act of petty vengeance because her boyfriend had kept eating her attacker's food out of the shared fridge. I.e. the story ended with her being badly screwed over again by her attacker, not just fucked but fucked over.

That petty revenge is the point of the story.

Make no mistake: this story isn't exactly my preferred NC/R subgenre, but I like it, I think it's funny and erotic in ways that work together to make me uncomfortable - not disgusted, but uncomfortable. And despite the narrative overlapping with some tropes I've written about in this thread, I didn't end up feeling like the woman had to become absurd and pathetic for the story to work.

In some ways the story is like the better written erotic fiction version of that movie Revenge of the Nerds, if the groups are embodied in single characters. The over-the-top sexual revenge of the nerds on the sorority girls. As in the movie, the girl who is raped is at that exact moment being fucked over by the guy beyond just the rape (in both movie and story experienced as good sex). In the movie, other nerds are simultaneously making money selling naked photos of the girl, still images taken from video of her naked taken without permission. (In the original movie script I read to write comparisons with this Literotica story, the nerds are selling naked photos of ALL the sorority girls, as a profit-maximising strategy, but in the movie as released it's just the girl in question.)

But to the credit of the story, it doesn't follow the movie by having the girl who is raped immediately falling in love with her rapist.

The comments for the story, however, were overwhelmingly dominated by guys talking about their desire for a sequel story in which this would become a continuing relationship of his domination, the relationship of attacker and victim, because every one commenting assumed that having had an orgasm as a result of nonconsensual sex with dom-sub overtones, of course this meant she'd be his slave in all matters.

Not only was that not implied by the story, the end of the story only fully works if both the attacked woman and her boyfriend emotionally experience that petty revenge - an act of complete contempt for her and her wellbeing, as well as an act primarily directed against her boyfriend, and in both cases hardly unsubtle.

But all these guys commenting didn't seem able to even see this, didn't seem able to understand the story, because the fantasy of the woman being forced to find out she irrationally wants to be a slave was just projected onto the story instead.

Partly I think that's because, as I suspect is the case also with the author of that story, I don't think a male author is likely to even consider what would be more likely to be obvious to women: leaving a woman tied up having obviously being fucked to be found by her boyfriend in conventional heterosexual monogamous coupledom is a very dangerous thing to do even if she's obviously been raped.

Men don't tend to realise that for women, telling your partner that you've been sexually assaulted is often a very far from safe thing to do. If there's the slightest hint that you might have cum, or been anything less than violently resisting the entire time, those risks go up, but those risks are there regardless.

If your partner is even slightly the jealous type, not only wouldn't you want him to find out you've been raped when you're tied up and gagged, for maximum safety you'd want to do it when other people are around, or via email.

Women are regularly subject to verbal and psychological abuse, if not physical violence, by partners who've discovered they're recent victims of sexual violence. The moment their partner finds out they've been sexually assaulted is quite often the moment a woman discovers how abusive their partner can be.

If the partners are from particular cultures, there are ways people understand these ideas, up to and including 'honor killing', but those are just specific terms for phenomena familiar to many women, to all women who've worked in rape crisis organisations, but phenomena rendered almost invisible in 'the West' more broadly.

The story I'm talking about is too light in tone to be dealing with those realities, and I'm in no way suggesting that it should have - this isn't a criticism of that work - it's just a context that automatically comes into my head in a way I very much doubt happens to guys reading it.

And for the guys who read the story and commented, there was such a strong desire that the fucked over woman not recognise this reality, that she become utterly subordinated, that there's definitely a shared and quite dogmatic fantasy at work.

Incidentally, since I mentioned a difference between the script and released Revenge of the Nerds movie: I also found a difference between the script and released version of a particular John Hughes movie, which would have made the most controversial sequence even more rapey, but hesitate to discuss it because though I think she's supposed to be 18 (and the actress was a few years older than that), nonetheless the number of candles was sixteen...

 

[subdudeme13]

Incidentally, the attached is a letter that appeared in the 1 December 1966 edition of The East Village Other.

I certainly wish I had moved to NYC earlier than I did. Coming from a super conservative town in PA it was certainly and eye opening time in my life.

 

[StillStunned]

There's definitely a few very specific elements of a NC/R story that are reproduced almost verbatim in a decent percentage of the works here, the most common of which might be:

(he feels her crotch) "Ah ha! She's wet! What a slut! She loves it because she's a slut and she's wet because she's a slut, what a slut!" (laughter all around if there's a bunch of people, otherwise: she hangs her head in shame/can't meet his eyes because she knows it's true, she is a slut!)

There's a few authorial choices at that point about how she effectively takes on the perspective of the attacker, whose viewpoint is usually fairly unsubtly vindicated - about her, about female sexuality, about women and submission, etcetera.

She becomes a completely different person suddenly because she's been raped into authenticity, the truth within etcetera.

If you find yourself with half an hour to spare, I'd like to hear your thoughts on my story Ben's Big Mistake. It's essentially this scenario, but with the roles reversed. As a man, I like to think I wrote Ben's reactions as believable, and I don't think I'd ever venture to write a similar scene with a female subject. But I'd be interested to see your take on it, particularly against the background of the cliche's you've been posting about.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

If you find yourself with half an hour to spare, I'd like to hear your thoughts on my story Ben's Big Mistake. It's essentially this scenario, but with the roles reversed. As a man, I like to think I wrote Ben's reactions as believable, and I don't think I'd ever venture to write a similar scene with a female subject. But I'd be interested to see your take on it, particularly against the background of the cliche's you've been posting about.

I honestly didn't experience your story that way.

Spoilers if anyone else is reading this who might want to not have things known in advance, but it's the story of a guy, an academic planning to blackmail a student coded as female into having sex.

But the tables are fairly quickly turned, and instead it becomes the story of a man getting just enough coercion in his own direction to overcome a fairly thin veneer of homophobia and transphobia preventing him from doing what he seems like he would actually have been up for doing anyway if it wasn't for internalised homophobia/transphobia and inexperience. It doesn't feel like he's discovering he's a sub, so much as he's someone discovering in practice that he can enjoy sex with and have actual romantic feelings toward someone with a penis.

The coercion is minimal and doesn't feel like it's the point, pushing at an open door

(Also realistically, though it's not really relevant to this discussion or to whether the story is good, almost everywhere in Western academia, if he'd baulked at the moment the student tried to turn things around, it's still the student who actually would have probably ended up losing if he made any complaint - academics aren't on the whole sadly persecuted by Me Too-ish scandals so much as still largely institutionally enabled to get away with things unless there's usually a bunch of students complaining, with actual evidence beyond a single academic-said/student-said incident - exceptions are few compared to the quantity of actual incidents...).

I'm not sure if it's very light NC/R or very light dom-sub, but I tend toward thinking of it as containing very light NC/R as a means to do something that's not really either of those things? The student is slightly enigmatic and the future could take a variety of possible shapes, but at the end I didn't read the story as about a guy who is now about to find himself subject to ongoing domination as such, enslaved by threats and a discovery that he wants to be subservient?

In that sense I don't think it does really fit within tropes I've been trying to talk about, even inverted or gender-altered.

 

[yowser]

(Also realistically, though it's not really relevant to this discussion or to whether the story is good, almost everywhere in Western academia, if he'd baulked at the moment the student tried to turn things around, it's still the student who actually would have probably ended up losing if he made any complaint - academics aren't on the whole sadly persecuted by Me Too-ish scandals so much as still largely institutionally enabled to get away with things unless there's usually a bunch of students complaining, with actual evidence beyond a single academic-said/student-said incident - exceptions are few compared to the quantity of actual incidents...).

I don't want to get too far off track, but in my experience in the US (more than one campus, and evidence from others at other universities) is that this is not true. In every 'he said, she said' situation (when it's the male prof and the female student) for which I have heard direct or indirect accounts, the university will side with the student. Folks have been disciplined for far less than what SS story's event described (even just closing an office door during a student/instructor discussion can be enough for a reprimand, universities are that nervous about even the hint of inappropriate interaction). All the places I know (all fairly left-leaning, admittedly) will give the victim the huge benefit of the doubt, and I think it is a good thing as just the threat of career trouble has inhibited behavior that would have been tolerated not all that long ago.

 

[StillStunned]

I'm not sure if it's very light NC/R or very light dom-sub, but I tend toward thinking of it as containing very light NC/R as a means to do something that's not really either of those things? The student is slightly enigmatic and the future could take a variety of possible shapes, but at the end I didn't read the story as about a guy who is now about to find himself subject to ongoing domination as such, enslaved by threats and a discovery that he wants to be subservient?

In that sense I don't think it does really fit within tropes I've been trying to talk about, even inverted or gender-altered.

Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts. I actually wrote a What I Wrote And Why about this story (WIWAW: Ben's Big Mistake), but the focus was more on how it came about, and on the "writerly" choices in the style, not on the underlying themes.

As it is, it's about a very boring man who's punished for a bad decision but, through that punishment, discovers a side of himself he didn't know about. Whether as a sub or as Gan's lover or just someone who craves for from sex than he knew existed. But it's the "betrayal" by his body that brings him to the realisation, which is how I made the connection to this thread.

I don't want to get too far off track, but in my experience in the US (more than one campus, and evidence from others at other universities) is that this is not true. In every 'he said, she said' situation (when it's the male prof and the female student) for which I have heard direct or indirect accounts, the university will side with the student. Folks have been disciplined for far less than what SS story's event described (even just closing an office door during a student/instructor discussion can be enough for a reprimand, universities are that nervous about even the hint of inappropriate interaction). All the places I know (all fairly left-leaning, admittedly) will give the victim the huge benefit of the doubt, and I think it is a good thing as just the threat of career trouble has inhibited behavior that would have been tolerated not all that long ago.

While I hope this is true, I really don't think the realistic plausibility is that important. For a start, Ben's quite a timid character who's likely to cave at the first threat. More importantly, it's Lit, and sometimes you have to throw realistic plausibility out of the window to tell your story.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I don't want to get too far off track, but in my experience in the US (more than one campus, and evidence from others at other universities) is that this is not true. In every 'he said, she said' situation (when it's the male prof and the female student) for which I have heard direct or indirect accounts, the university will side with the student. Folks have been disciplined for far less than what SS story's event described (even just closing an office door during a student/instructor discussion can be enough for a reprimand, universities are that nervous about even the hint of inappropriate interaction). All the places I know (all fairly left-leaning, admittedly) will give the victim the huge benefit of the doubt, and I think it is a good thing as just the threat of career trouble has inhibited behavior that would have been tolerated not all that long ago.

It's a complicated subject; I'd suggest people read the book Sexual Misconduct in Academia (though it can be difficult to find a physical copy because various legal threats caused the publisher to effectively withdraw the book from circulation in the middle of last year).

 

[mirafrida]

For me, I think the big picture is that erotic preferences and kinks tend to be super-varied and super-specific (more, even, than humanity's vast variation in the sorts of 'normal' media we prefer). Now, a lot of readers are pretty flexible, and happy enough with something closer to the lowest common denominator. But if you're more picky, as I am, it gets really hard to navigate a site like LitE, in the sense of trying to find 'quality,' but also match a specific kink, while drowning in a sea of mixed-bag content.

I do write a lot of NC/R, and when I read that's my category as well, because that's just where my fantasy life has always lived.

At core, I share a lot of the OPs responses / frustrations with the tropes of this category, which is part of why I don't end up reading more, and also what drove me to start writing in the first place.

On the other hand, as I read the OPs comments, I'm not sure there that a lot of my stuff would not also prove annoying to them, as those tropes can be hard to dodge.

When writing NC as erotic fantasy (as opposed to, say, gritty literary exploration of the psychological effects of sexual violence), there is just a lot of pressure on the author to go down the path of the non-consenting party (usually, woman) enjoying the experience:

• as people have said, the site requires it
• readers, by and large, also really want it, and I'm not insensitive to reader's responses
• in real life, NC just is ugly - I hope we all know that. So when creating fantasy NC, there is an internalized pressure to pull away from that ugliness, which is going to tend to manifest as the non-consenting party secretly/ultimately wanting and enjoying it

These pressures definitely shape what gets written.

In trying to walk this tightrope, for me, a central issue is the integrity and depth of the non-consenting charatcer. So many of the things the OP (and I) dislike seem to come down to the non-consenting character being cardboard, or otherwise not being taken seriously as a character. And let me just say, there is strong demand for this kind of writing - a large contingent of readers are looking for "the woman to be turned into a slut."

But as for me, I do want to read/try-to-write characters that have some amount of depth / character / backbone / plausibility as people.

And yet, for the reasons above, I still want them to, at some level, enjoy the act in the moment.

In the end, I thread that needle in various ways that work for me. But they may very well not work for the next person.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

For me, I think the big picture is that erotic preferences and kinks tend to be super-varied and super-specific (more, even, than humanity's vast variation in the sorts of 'normal' media we prefer). Now, a lot of readers are pretty flexible, and happy enough with something closer to the lowest common denominator. But if you're more picky, as I am, it gets really hard to navigate a site like LitE, in the sense of trying to find 'quality,' but also match a specific kink, while drowning in a sea of mixed-bag content.

I do write a lot of NC/R, and when I read that's my category as well, because that's just where my fantasy life has always lived.

At core, I share a lot of the OPs responses / frustrations with the tropes of this category, which is part of why I don't end up reading more, and also what drove me to start writing in the first place.

On the other hand, as I read the OPs comments, I'm not sure there that a lot of my stuff would not also prove annoying to them, as those tropes can be hard to dodge.

When writing NC as erotic fantasy (as opposed to, say, gritty literary exploration of the psychological effects of sexual violence), there is just a lot of pressure on the author to go down the path of the non-consenting party (usually, woman) enjoying the experience:

• as people have said, the site requires it
• readers, by and large, also really want it, and I'm not insensitive to reader's responses
• in real life, NC just is ugly - I hope we all know that. So when creating fantasy NC, there is an internalized pressure to pull away from that ugliness, which is going to tend to manifest as the non-consenting party secretly/ultimately wanting and enjoying it

These pressures definitely shape what gets written.

In trying to walk this tightrope, for me, a central issue is the integrity and depth of the non-consenting charatcer. So many of the things the OP (and I) dislike seem to come down to the non-consenting character being cardboard, or otherwise not being taken seriously as a character. And let me just say, there is strong demand for this kind of writing - a large contingent of readers are looking for "the woman to be turned into a slut."

But as for me, I do want to read/try-to-write characters that have some amount of depth / character / backbone / plausibility as people.

And yet, for the reasons above, I still want them to, at some level, enjoy the act in the moment.

In the end, I thread that needle in various ways that work for me. But they may very well not work for the next person.

The main thing I'd add to these largely reasonable comments is that the ways people often incorporate the "she gets pleasure" aspect of an NC/R story here aren't designed to make things less degrading; it's often designed to make it much more so.

Obviously it's complicated.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

'Public in Private' by Harper_nolack1 is about as exemplary as the very next selection offered up by the 'Random Stories' section of the NC/R page was likely to be.

Spoilers for the whole story.

A teenage girl is raped at an effectively deserted public pool, by a significantly older guy she explicitly finds very unattractive. She resists him, but soon enough this happens, literally the first indication she is getting pleasure from anything that he's forcing upon her using physical strength and threats of biting into her genitals.

His cock sprung free from his underwear, and he shoved it into Brandi's pussy. Brandi gave out a little cry as the man finally got his cock inside of her. He left it there for ten seconds, whispering in her ear: "You're enjoying this, aren't you, sweetie? You're starting to get a little wet."

Brandi said nothing as she realized she was, in fact, enjoying it. She didn't say anything so she didn't have to give him the satisfaction of being right. The man thrust in and out of her, as helpless moans escaped her throat, ones she couldn't control. [...]

"You fucking slut!"

There's two broad versions of the narratives I've been writing about, and in this short section this story has most of the elements of the version that is less about her discovering a love of submission: her vagina lubricates, hardly an unlikely event if a penis is forced inside regardless of whether a woman is enjoying things, but our access to her thoughts confirms that she in fact is. This very quickly leads to her inability to control her responses, including responses of things people usually retain much more control of even when highly excited, and just as quickly he's calling her a slut because obviously (in this case it fits with a broader portrayal - he actually uses the word 'hussy' so I think we're able to read this as reflecting his own shall-we-say 'dated' worldview as much as it's any broader vindication of that perspective - except that his perceptions turn out to be... well...)

Anyway, I lied about this story not being her discovery of her submissive desires, because after raping her repeatedly the rapist orders her to come to the pool again the next evening and calls her a slut again before leaving.

And though there's literally no reason shown why he'd reasonably expect to have her comply, by an amazing coincidence it turns out he's raped someone who loves it and wants more.

When Mimi mentioned the man again and asked her if anything happened, Brandi assured her everything went okay. She didn't want to tell her about how he fucked her and she thoroughly and secretly enjoyed it. She was willing to come back to the pool much later, around 8, from then on.

 

[mirafrida]

The main thing I'd add to these largely reasonable comments is that the ways people often incorporate the "she gets pleasure" aspect of an NC/R story here aren't designed to make things less degrading; it's often designed to make it much more so.

Obviously it's complicated.

To start, let me clarify that I don't, personally, begrudge anyone their fantasy likes, as long as they can tell the difference between fantasy and real life. This is a selfish stance, one could argue. I am very confident I can tell the difference between real and fake, and keep them from bleeding over - and I would feel stunted not to be able to indulge my fantasy life via reading and writing. But I do understand that in a patriarchally-charged world, not everyone can maintain the distinction between fact and fiction, and struggle with how to square that circle. My (weak-tea?) answer is to put a disclaimer on my stories, making it clear that they do not condone any kind of real-life cruelty or exploitation, in case there is any reader confusion.

So, yes, the issue of humiliation / degradation is very complicated.

At some level, humiliation is obviously a big part of what I'm going for, and I do look for discrete opportunities to inject humiliation/degradation into my stories, in ways that play to my preferences. Presumably this isn't too suprising. One big source of erotic charge is transgression - and that implies some sort of "wrongness," which presumably it would at some level be humiliating/degrading to be embroiled in. So, yeah, humiliation powers a lot of my fantasy kinks.

On the other hand, for me the "she gets off on it" trope (to the extent that I employ it) typically does not serve a humiliation function at all. Zero. Typically, it is there to do the things I mentioned before, sanding the edges off an objectively brutal act in order to make it more palatable to the site, readers, and/or me, as per my personal taste.

However, I agree with your larger point 100% - many people do see the "omg she's a slut" trope as directly implicated in the humiliation/degradation aspect of erotica that they enjoy.

And also agree with you that, personally, expanding this trope beyond serving a narrow function within the sex act itself does backfire badly for me, in terms of undermining the erotic value of the writing. Why? Because as you've pointed out, this type of writing quickly moves away from being an exploration of transgression practiced against a specific fleshed-out character, and toward scanning more as making blanket statements about generic cardboard cutout characters and the nature of womeh writ-large. Which is not only silly and dumb, but also explicitly cuts against the dramatic tension and transgressive power of the story for me. It vitiates the dramatic stakes.

That's similarly why I keep the "she enjoyed it" bounded. If the non-consenting party ("she") is converted into a slut robot, then not only is she rendered into a nonentity as a character, but also: does the story really have any power? I am writing erotic fiction, and for many reasons have no interest leaving my characters broken. I write "comedies" in the classical sense. But in the spirit of "cake and eat it" I also want the tension that comes with transgression. And in a story where the main character came away at the end slobbering for more, that tension would be popped like a soap bubble. Therefore I typically have endings with some element of ambivalence, consequences but manageable, "I'm not going to do that again but would I erase having had the experience if I could? not sure" etc.

Again, just my ways of solving for what I like.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

this type of writing quickly moves away from being an exploration of transgression practiced against a specific fleshed-out character, and toward scanning more as making blanket statements about generic cardboard cutout characters and the nature of womeh writ-large. Which is not only silly and dumb, but also explicitly cuts against the dramatic tension and transgressive power of the story for me. It vitiates the dramatic stakes.

I agree with this entirely, but it doesn't seem like this is the general view. It's difficult not to think that part of the reason for how many people negotiate female subjectivity and sexuality in NC/R stories of this type here might be, to skip from fiction to reality, people actually having internalised things about women, 'sluts', inherent tendency toward submission, etcetera, in various versions - but even if that's not simply the case - one always hopes and I try to give the benefit of the doubt but it's not always easy given what gets written - the seemingly dominant versions of these tropes I see here make it appear that many people have a very different understanding in their heads... consciously or otherwise... about what works at least in such fiction.

I thought I'd read a story of yours and was going to read it again to talk about it but I couldn't find it so maybe I got the wrong person - bet, sports, managing career change...? Am I misremembering?

 

[mirafrida]

I agree with this entirely, but it doesn't seem like this is the general view. It's difficult not to think that part of the reason for how many people negotiate female subjectivity and sexuality in NC/R stories of this type here might be, to skip from fiction to reality, people actually having internalised things about women, 'sluts', inherent tendency toward submission, etcetera, in various versions - but even if that's not simply the case - one always hopes and I try to give the benefit of the doubt but it's not always easy given what gets written - the seemingly dominant versions of these tropes I see here make it appear that many people have a very different understanding in their heads... consciously or otherwise... about what works at least in such fiction.

Basically, yes.

I agree most NC/R readers feel very different about it. I don't really know why they do either (but again, that's probably why I'm writing smut today). And I hope this reflects erotic preferences on their part, not real-world conceptions of 'what women are like.'

I thought I'd read a story of yours and was going to read it again to talk about it but I couldn't find it so maybe I got the wrong person - bet, sports, managing career change...? Am I misremembering?

Sports + bet + consequent-career-effects sounds like "when taken at the flood"

it was a choose-your-own-ending type of deal, hence the three-part construction:

https://www.literotica.com/s/when-taken-at-the-flood-pt-01
https://www.literotica.com/s/when-taken-at-the-flood-pt-02a
https://www.literotica.com/s/when-taken-at-the-flood-pt-02b


(Edit to say: this was actually one of the stories where I resisted these sorts of tropes most steadfastly. Since then I have been beaten into the mold somewhat more fully by the pressures of the world...)

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Sports + bet + consequent-career-effects sounds like "when taken at the flood"

it was a choose-your-own-ending type of deal, hence the three-part construction:

https://www.literotica.com/s/when-taken-at-the-flood-pt-01
https://www.literotica.com/s/when-taken-at-the-flood-pt-02a
https://www.literotica.com/s/when-taken-at-the-flood-pt-02b


(Edit to say: this was actually one of the stories where I resisted these sorts of tropes most steadfastly. Since then I have been beaten into the mold somewhat more fully by the pressures of the world...)

I will definitely read it but the story I'm thinking of involved sex after a... sports game of some sort - a ball was involved I'm sure - the sex in front of a huge number of people.left over from the crowd, a sports person of some sort winning a bet that meant getting to fuck a hot implicitly wealthy girl who I think had been deliberately tricked into making the bet while she was... drunk? high? something like that - maybe I hallucinated it, or Mandela Effected it into your body of work, though my sexual reveries don't usually involve US-style racial-sexual mythologies which I recall were pretty prominent... you know, black man, white woman, oh the shame etc. ...US sexual imagination never really escaped the mythologies of slavery and segregation did it... Oh well.

 

[mirafrida]

I will definitely read it but the story I'm thinking of involved sex after a... sports game of some sort - a ball was involved I'm sure - the sex in front of a huge number of people.left over from the crowd, a sports person of some sort winning a bet that meant getting to fuck a hot implicitly wealthy girl who I think had been deliberately tricked into making the bet while she was... drunk? high? something like that - maybe I hallucinated it, or Mandela Effected it into your body of work, though my sexual reveries don't usually involve US-style racial-sexual mythologies which I recall were pretty prominent... you know, black man, white woman, oh the shame etc. ...US sexual imagination never really escaped the mythologies of slavery and segregation did it... Oh well.

Ah yes, that one also does exist. A bit of a sore spot. Admittedly, it was probably my "roughest edged" story by a decent margin. I didn't start out intending that to happen, but sometimes the story will be what it will be.

I firmly believe it did not transgress any LitE boundaries, nor that it was nearly as mean-spirited as a lot of the stuff you will run across here. Also, I believe Laurel basically agreed with that assessment. However, it got posted here twice, and twice pulled down for having been reported as "violent content." At that point I gave up.

It did play hard with racial tropes, and I think that's probably actually why people reported it. I, personally, did not intend or think it was racist. But it did engage with those ideas / ways-of-thinking in a big way, and, you know, I'm not Black, so who knows.

Anyway, as I say, I gave up posting it to Lit. However, I've a few times I've had readers email me requesting it, so I posted it elsewhere. I will DM you the link, as I guess I'm not allowed to put it here.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Ah yes, that one also does exist. A bit of a sore spot. Admittedly, it was probably my "roughest edged" story by a decent margin. I didn't start out intending that to happen, but sometimes the story will be what it will be.

I firmly believe it did not transgress any LitE boundaries, nor that it was nearly as mean-spirited as a lot of the stuff you will run across here. Also, I believe Laurel basically agreed with that assessment. However, it got posted here twice, and twice pulled down for having been reported as "violent content." At that point I gave up.

It did play hard with racial tropes, and I think that's probably actually why people reported it. I, personally, did not intend or think it was racist. But it did engage with those ideas / ways-of-thinking in a big way, and, you know, I'm not Black, so who knows.

Anyway, as I say, I gave up posting it to Lit. However, I've a few times I've had readers email me requesting it, so I posted it elsewhere. I will DM you the link, as I guess I'm not allowed to put it here.

Oh, right, that explains, I thought I'd misremembered the author.

My memory was it wasn't any worse than many NC/R stories (though the conclusion about her future subordination wasn't to my taste, for reasons I've gone on about in general ad nauseum in this thread, it wasn't any different from a hundred now-I'm-his-slave/slut conclusions).

I don't know, the racial tropes are so embedded in US sexual imagination that black guy dominant stories would probably have to work pretty hard NOT to invoke them.

Anyway I'm glad I wasn't showing signs of early dementia at least.

 

[mirafrida]

My memory was it wasn't any worse than many NC/R stories (though the conclusion about her future subordination wasn't to my taste, for reasons I've gone on about in general ad nauseum in this thread, it wasn't any different from a hundred now-I'm-his-slave/slut conclusions).

Yeah, that one is a bit hard to explain. About 1/3 of the time a story surprises me and demands to do it's own thing - with the nature of the change being quite unpredictable.

Like the Western one I did last summer just would not let me finish until it had become a bit sweeter in ways I hadn't expected or planned. Majoruty of readers prefer that sort of shift to the other one, but it feels quite out of my control


Edit to add: in my mind, that particular story-conclusion you reference is actually an interesting case to consider. As I said, it was not my normal ending, and left the non-consenting party in a far worse off situation than I normally would. Maybe that's why people reported it, IDK. But that was the ending that was demanded.

Now, maybe that just shows I have a warped, racist subconscious. Probably. But to my conscious mind, as I tried to understand why I was writing it, the key factor was that she was not "sluttified" or "enslaved to BBC" or whatever (Keon would have laughed at that), and rather that she was the product of an elite US Southern culture that was racist, infantilized women, and reserved opportunities for men in that circle. Thus, when she was "sullied" they cut her off, she struggled to survive, and landed in an exploititive situation with Keon. And we know why he felt he didn't owe privileged white folks all that much consideration.

Of course, reader interpretations are valid, and I probably screwed it up. Maybe I'm splitting hairs. And sure, I was also playing with tropes at the same time. But to me it felt like it was coming out of a different place.