Am I really the only person who finds

[Gamblnluck]

If you want to write a rape story, as per Lit's rules, the victim HAS to find enjoyment in it. So, where is the cofusion coming from?

That means the victim is obligated to to react in a favorable way. If she has a forced orgasm you are good to go. She can still be traumatized and hate it as long as the physical response is there.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Simply mentioning that they felt pleasure and they hated it seems to be enough to get the story accepted. So it's not necessary to go to such extremes as in the examples you've provided, but that doesn't mean that the authors writing those stories are aware of that.

 

[RoperTrace]

I get your point completely.

Remember however that the peculiar rules that Lit has regarding the nonconsent stories where only stories where the victim ends up enjoying the encounter can be published. There are more subtle ways to achieve this, but it does kind of push a lot of writers towards using 'wetness' as a clear sign that they are meeting this rule. (which has been discussed a lot on the forums.)

Yes, that's Lit's Auto-self-lubrication & enjoyment rule in the case of 'Non-consent'. It's a tricky bastard to navigate and not violate the rules. We're sorry.

In one of mine, I used an actual woman's request, that she be taken against her will, in something like: 'performance art.' Sounds like bs, I know, but this scenario was presented to me one time, and I turned it into a story. Her request was denied IRL.

 

[StillStunned]

That means the victim is obligated to to react in a favorable way. If she has a forced orgasm you are good to go. She can still be traumatized and hate it as long as the physical response is there.

My story Rulk the Rat and the Demon Dagger has a rape scene that leaves the victim traumatised. The second half of the story is about how that trauma is visited on the perpetrator.

 

[AtaMediumPace]

Am I really the only person who finds all capacity to enjoy a story disappears the moment I get to the bit where someone writes the central female character as thinking:

"Ohmygod I'm being betrayed by my body, I'm getting wet against my will/when my ideas of my own sexuality say I shouldn't, am I a slut who wants to be dominated, who wants to obey this person growling manly instructions at me? I do! I am! I'm joyfully subservient and obedient!" etc...

I'd mention a particular story but in all honesty it feels like hundreds, and not in the BDSM section...

I know some women write broadly similar things, but I feel like the massive misinterpretation of the meaning of a vagina lubricating has to be a manifestation of something guys think or pretend to believe, surely?

I don't know, maybe it's a convenient short-hand in erotic writing, like implicitly pretending people don't have teeth whenever writing a blowjob scene.

But it feels closer to the ones that aren't just convenient for writing but convenient for fitting into particular... views.

Like some guy read that some women orgasm while being raped and ever since that's been a shorthand for whatever they wish - she loves being treated that way/discovers she's a sub, or proving a woman is a 'slut' (a creature more fictional than a futa) - and of course the orgasm forced upon a woman is always the most mind-blowing and sexuality-changing of her life. (Comparison with the actual experience of women who have had this happen would distinctly suggest otherwise but comparison would also be in bad taste. Like comparing superheroes getting powers from radiation to the actual experiences of people living around Hiroshima at the end of WW2...)

Anyway, like I say I didn't want to name a particular story for including that initial paragraph, but...am I the only one who is wrenched out of a story every time that paragraph appears?

This is one of the many reasons I avoid all noncon and a lot of submission stories.

The woman wanting, anticipating and encouraging are the parts of the story which would turn me on the most. Stories that go out of their way to avoid these things just aren't worth reading.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Simply mentioning that they felt pleasure and they hated it seems to be enough to get the story accepted. So it's not necessary to go to such extremes as in the examples you've provided, but that doesn't mean that the authors writing those stories are aware of that.

Maybe it's partly that they don't know, but also it's so common, maybe it's what people really want in their NC/R stories.

Is that what you want, all you guys and women reading these stories, and all the guys and women (and guys-pretending-to-be-women, not many actual women are as ignorant of actual female sexual biology as is often on display) writing?

A guy smugly stating "I knew you'd turn out to be an obedient little slut" and the woman replying "yes daddy"?

Ok that's partly my issue, I want to vomit every time someone uses the word 'daddy' like that, but beyond that - is THAT what people want?

Or is it just what they're getting for some reason or reasons?

I know it's an overwhelmingly male and males-pretending-to-be-women readership, so maybe that's partly why I feel so distant from what seems to have increasingly become dominant worldview in nominally not dom-sub NC/R stories here (and also a bit incredulous that people so easily can be persuaded that this is the core of what women really are overwhelmingly fantasizing about (or worse, what we really ARE) in all of our fifty shades of inherent subservience...

 

[NuclearFairy]

Maybe it's partly that they don't know, but also it's so common, maybe it's what people really want in their NC/R stories.

Is that what you want, all you guys and women reading these stories, and all the guys and women (and guys-pretending-to-be-women, not many actual women are as ignorant of actual female sexual biology as is often on display) writing?

A guy smugly stating "I knew you'd turn out to be an obedient little slut" and the woman replying "yes daddy"?

Ok that's partly my issue, I want to vomit every time someone uses the word 'daddy' like that, but beyond that - is THAT what people want?

Or is it just what they're getting for some reason or reasons?

I know it's an overwhelmingly male and males-pretending-to-be-women readership, so maybe that's partly why I feel so distant from what seems to have increasingly become dominant worldview in nominally not dom-sub NC/R stories here (and also a bit incredulous that people so easily can be persuaded that this is the core of what women really are overwhelmingly fantasizing about (or worse, what we really ARE) in all of our fifty shades of inherent subservience...

Sometimes I do want something similar to that. But when I do want it I want it to be well written and to not happen in the first scene. Ya know, a gradual pleasure pain break down until she's begging for it over the course of days or weeks.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Sometimes I do want something similar to that. But when I do want it I want it to be well written and to not happen in the first scene. Ya know, a gradual pleasure pain break down until she's begging for it over the course of days or weeks.

I think that's ultimately quite a different thing, despite the nominal similarities. Because then it works because of a build-up of experiences and events affecting someone, it's not just instantly revealing the underlying truth of what we are, when I get wet that one time and realise I love being someone's...I can't bring myself to use the word but let's say there was a civil war supposed to abolish it...

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Incidentally, I recently found this in the advertisements section of a Californian alternative newspaper from 1973.

 

[NuclearFairy]

I think that's ultimately quite a different thing, despite the nominal similarities. Because then it works because of a build-up of experiences and events affecting someone, it's not just instantly revealing the underlying truth of what we are, when I get wet that one time and realise I love being someone's...I can't bring myself to use the word but let's say there was a civil war supposed to abolish it...

Yes yes I see what you mean. That seems a bit more instant gratification. Honestly though you need enough buildup to be able to rub one out so I can see how those would just not do it unless you were already close. And even then if you find it annoying enough it'll be a turn off.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Yes yes I see what you mean. That seems a bit more instant gratification. Honestly though you need enough buildup to be able to rub one out so I can see how those would just not do it unless you were already close. And even then if you find it annoying enough it'll be a turn off.

Believe me, I don't find the instant revelation that the woman was just waiting to discover she wants to be subservient an exciting trope, it just seems many do. I prefer my women resisting dominance - they might fail, they're might get wet or orgasm against their will, but they're not even slightly confused about whether that means they're naturally subservient, they're not confused about what's happening - they may lose this struggle, but they don't actively join the other side.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Put another way, kinks are often about eroticising people's anxieties, their overlapping personal, social and political anxieties.

It feels like this is why cuck stuff seems like guys negotiating their anxieties having internalised ideas of masculinity and coupledom, eroticising the humiliating inability to enact cliches of alpha or toxic masculinity - and why in the US this manifests as eroticised anxiety that 'their' (implicitly white) girlfriend will fuck a black guy, an idea they so often manage to find more deliciously emasculating or humiliating without ever asking themselves WHY they feel that way...

Because cuck stuff, despite appearances, is from anxieties about, not a critique of, heterosexual monogamous coupledom. The failure is the failure to control and satisfy 'your' woman. If it was a critique it would slide toward polyamory or any other relationship model, but that's not what it is - it's often racialized anxieties about the inability to enact what they think is the best, the only proper manliness - oddly enough represented by US racial mythology about the manly virility of black guys etc.

So then my problem maybe, by contrast, is that whatever I'm eroticising isn't submission, it's defeat.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Whereas my eroticising is more submission in nature. So I kinda get these stories, although I would also much prefer a more gradual break down than instant submission, especially if she doesn't already identify herself as a submissive.

But then when I read bdsm I tend to prefer the ones that have a brat sub, or someone who doesn't want to submit so much as they want to be dominated.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Whereas my eroticising is more submission in nature. So I kinda get these stories, although I would also much prefer a more gradual break down than instant submission, especially if she doesn't already identify herself as a submissive.

But then when I read bdsm I tend to prefer the ones that have a brat sub, or someone who doesn't want to submit so much as they want to be dominated.

That makes sense to me even if I don't share those preferences.

To me, the moment of the woman or women realising they actually do want this, or realising they want to be obedient etc, , is when I lose my ability to identify at a pretty fundamental level.

Anyone can be subjected to and have a huge spectrum of responses to sexual assaults, obviously, just as the spectrum of people who might commit a sexual assault is enormous. And the perpetrator can be and can believe pretty much anyone and anything broadly speaking. They don't have to seem or be an anger- and hate-filled misogynist, or an ideological patriarch, or pretty much anything.

After all, there's thousands of different ways for people to be a horny sexual opportunist (without having to imagine that their assault on someone will obviously tap into their essential desire to be subordinated). Someone who steals a wallet doesn't necessarily believe in the collective redistribution of all wealth. Hell they might not favour progressive taxation... they'd just find it convenient and pleasurable if they could get away with something.

In general I find it easy enough to identify with women who have a huge range of responses,

Being defeated (yes I'm suddenly using that word, just out of momentary convenience, it's not a new long-term usage of the word, it's just linguistic opportunism) by a guy or guys preforming the'dom' cliches of Literotican NC/R, smugly enjoying what they think is the vindication of belief about this woman or more often about women in general, isn't inherently a problem for identification in the story - being defeated by an idiot, by someone genuinely foolish, isn't necessarily a problem. It's just if he's not only presented as happily victorious but as if his beliefs about women are ACTUALLY confirmed, the events unquestionably showing his knowledge and wisdom, then I feel the (to me) wrong kind of silly and can only enjoy identification on the same terms as when reading science fiction. And even then not the best written science fiction, more like that book by Robert Heinlein where he talked about a woman's nipples as barometers of her mood? The one with Heinlein inventing words to describe a woman's nipples getting hard which are intended to come across as examples of onomatopoeia?

Anyway, I keep talking about identification with characters when reading this fiction - I think the question functions differently in relation to erotic fiction than it does more broadly, it's not essential for a story to 'work', but it's often a big part of how a story is SUPPOSED to work, I think...

Ok that's my off-the-cuff comments for the moment - I think I'm in danger of repeating things as much as the stories I'm talking about repeat the same tropes. So I'm going to try to be more cautious, and stop writing responses just because there's finally fifteen minutes I can spare now to do it...

 

[AngelaSaxon]

More than I expected and briefly, but did this turn into a discussion with people and notably women talking about what they like and dislike in an NC/R story? I might be wrong but does that actually happen here often? Because I'd got the impression not that much...

 

[ElectricBlue]

More than I expected and briefly, but did this turn into a discussion with people and notably women talking about what they like and dislike in an NC/R story? I might be wrong but does that actually happen here often? Because I'd got the impression not that much...

The Feedback Forum generally stays on track, although there's not huge traffic. Some threads take off, others stagnate. There's no real explanation why.

Most writers are after commentary on their stories. A broader "Why does this happen?" thread, which is what this one is, is a bit unusual. It might have got more commentary over in the Authors' Hangout, who knows.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

The Feedback Forum generally stays on track, although there's not huge traffic. Some threads take off, others stagnate. There's no real explanation why.

Most writers are after commentary on their stories. A broader "Why does this happen?" thread, which is what this one is, is a bit unusual. It might have got more commentary over in the Authors' Hangout, who knows.

I did think about the question of where to put this, since it wasn't about just one story but rather strong tendencies in many NC/R stories here (and arguably ended up even broader than that).

I hadn't been around these forums in recent years, and really not a great deal ever, but just from the name I thought the Author's Hangout might restrict things slightly, given both writers and also people who are just readers here were those I was trying to talk with...

Do you think there would have been a bigger response there though? I was actually pretty pleased with the pretty thoughtful engagement of the people who have been responding here even when they obviously disagree with me or have quite different preferences. But a wider discussion on top of that could definitely have been interesting.

(At first I was thinking about this post as maybe analogous to what Marshall McLuhan pretentiously called a "probe", inserting something into an environment you don't fully understand because the responses might help you to better grasp the dynamics at work.)

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I think the important thing to note is that what started as a discussion of literary tropes used in stories on this site and the policies and cultures that inform them did eventually become extremely personal reflections on the precise things that sexually excite us in some of the most controversial and socially unacceptable themes present here - reflections by a few impressively open people, and also me writing with a very long-term username also used in a bunch of other places and both easily google searchable and remarkably close to my actual name. Hi mum!

 

[Bazzle]

I've just written a non-con type story...it ended up in incest and has been hated in the scores. To navigate the rules, she has to have got pleasure from it. So yes, she gets wet at the thought. Using that trope.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This is a place for fantasies of all kinds rather than realistic erotic experiences.
You discovered that your particular type of fantasy is far less popular than some other type of fantasy that you dislike. Welcome to the club.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I've just written a non-con type story...it ended up in incest and has been hated in the scores. To navigate the rules, she has to have got pleasure from it. So yes, she gets wet at the thought. Using that trope.

I haven't read your story, but someone getting aroused and so getting wet isn't necessarily the same as, for example, the many stories in which someone else notices a woman's vagina lubricating and confidently declaring that this proves she's a slut who loves subordination/being forced, and it's not necessarily the same as, in another example, the many stories in which a woman herself notices her body reacting that way and herself concludes that her essential self is a desire to be an obedient fuckpuppet, usually something the guy knew in advance because implicitly or explicitly apparently that's just what we are... In those stories anyway it very much seems not just her experience somehow, but a truth about women - these particular stories are all set in kind of this same parallel universe.

I don't think the rules or the shall-we-say somewhat crude understanding of female sexual biology require those things - do the women who LIKE subservience fantasies want THAT as the shared fictional setting which looks like our world but all women are like this? That would seem a bit odd to me...

In any case I haven't read your story - I tend to steer clear of incest stuff - so I can't really assess how that trope appears...?

 

[AngelaSaxon]

This is a place for fantasies of all kinds rather than realistic erotic experiences.
You discovered that your particular type of fantasy is far less popular than some other type of fantasy that you dislike. Welcome to the club.

Trying to understand what's popular with who and why, to hear how different people relate to the same tropes, trying to express my responses as clearly as I can while trying to see who agrees with those responses and to what extent, to hear how different people negotiate parallel issues in writing, and reading, erotica - do you think that's an inappropriate way to use the forums, or is there something specific that I've argued or just said that has provoked this bit of business?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Do you think there would have been a bigger response there though? I was actually pretty pleased with the pretty thoughtful engagement of the people who have been responding here even when they obviously disagree with me or have quite different preferences. But a wider discussion on top of that could definitely have been interesting.

Generally speaking, the Feedback Forum revolves more around individual stories, with writers seeking more commentary and discussion than they get in story Comments. Several people also provide critique threads, where folk offer up a story and say, tell me what you think. But you can see for yourself, it's not super busy.

The AH not only wanders around literary, writerly stuff, but also wanders off into topics such as yours. The AH has a bigger community than here - although there is a fair bit of crossover.

(At first I was thinking about this post as maybe analogous to what Marshall McLuhan pretentiously called a "probe", inserting something into an environment you don't fully understand because the responses might help you to better grasp the dynamics at work.)

I can see that. You got a range of intelligent input, so in that sense, job done. You'd have got a similar response in the AH, although, safe to say, probably more volatile, and more inclined to wander dramatically off-topic.

 

[Bazzle]

I haven't read your story, but someone getting aroused and so getting wet isn't necessarily the same as, for example, the many stories in which someone else notices a woman's vagina lubricating and confidently declaring that this proves she's a slut who loves subordination/being forced, and it's not necessarily the same as, in another example, the many stories in which a woman herself notices her body reacting that way and herself concludes that her essential self is a desire to be an obedient fuckpuppet, usually something the guy knew in advance because implicitly or explicitly apparently that's just what we are... In those stories anyway it very much seems not just her experience somehow, but a truth about women - these particular stories are all set in kind of this same parallel universe.

I don't think the rules or the shall-we-say somewhat crude understanding of female sexual biology require those things - do the women who LIKE subservience fantasies want THAT as the shared fictional setting which looks like our world but all women are like this? That would seem a bit odd to me...

In any case I haven't read your story - I tend to steer clear of incest stuff - so I can't really assess how that trope appears...?

Here it is. Its fairly short

https://www.literotica.com/s/i-still-fucking-hate-him

Its step dad incest. I did put it up in NC...but Laurel moved it.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Here it is. Its fairly short

https://www.literotica.com/s/i-still-fucking-hate-him

Its step dad incest. I did put it up in NC...but Laurel moved it.

I read it, but only this one you've linked to here, not the first part.

So obviously I'm missing a lot of context which might help explain why she decides to say nothing and do nothing and pretend to be asleep.

Obviously there IS a version of that trope going on at some level - she's getting wet in anticipation of assault and wonders if she's a slut as a consequence, and a few other moments like that which broadly fit in with the usual trope. But they're not there in isolation, and the space given to how she's feeling and experiencing levels of lubrication and arousal has far more nuance than is usually the case, and has purposes I think beyond the simple significance that trope usually invites people to find within the sheer fact that someone is getting wet. Beyond and in contradiction to.

So no, I don't think it really counts as an example what I've been trying to talk about here.

After all, I wasn't trying to suggest that writers shouldn't ever talk about sexual response and lubrication - I was noting the particular, strange, simple fictions about the realities and meanings of female sexual response that are so very very common here.

The missing context from only reading the second part probably accounts for some of my inability to fully understand the nature of her ambivalence and choices, but they didn't seem like just another iteration of that trope.

Even if it's not the kind of NC/R story most able to get me excited, I think there was more care for the details of her responses present in the writing here than is pretty much ever present in the stories I've been invoking. For what my opinion is worth.