Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

[catalina_francisco]

i'm not sure why he was abusive to me and he's not to his new wife...but i'm glad he's not...

You might be surprised....perhaps he does abuse her too....it is not uncommon, and it is not something the new wife usually shares with the former partner. It also could be he is maintaining that history first as he did with you, before the abuse begins. No doubt he has learned a few lessons from his experience with you, but I doubt any of them include ending his life as an abuser...usually they just learn to hide it better, use the abuse to gain more control, and present a much safer picture to anyone on the outside of the relationship so it also minimises anyone believing the abused if they speak out.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I hope nobody thinks I was blaming the victim because I didn't phrase myself well.

My mother was a battered wife for many years. She finally got out of it when I was a year and a half old. She said she didn't care if she was being abused, but she didn't want me to be exposed to it, she didn't want me to be brought up in that environment. So that was her inspiration for making the break, but I am aware that many other women aren't able to leave - and I am aware that murder happens this way. I'm sorry if I seemed callous or like I was blaming the victim. It's not that at all.

I didn't think you would or were Etoile.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/376675788_f2e2be5814_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I'm sorry for your experience, but what I think will help you to understand better is that you are thinking of your experience of abuse where it was not consensual, it was not wanted, and so was abuse and trying to fit it into a consensual TPE relationship where physical violence (or psychological, emotional etc) is accepted and part of what works for those in the relationship. My definition of abuse is something which occurs non-consensually, and is meant to not only seriously harm, but comes from a place where love does not reside. OTOH, for me TPE has to come from a consensual position, and either at the hands or commands of the one who I share a loving relationship with....I would not have agreed to TPE with someone I was casually playing with or not going to commit to a long term relationship with, it just wouldn't work that way for me.


In the context we share, yes he is free to do anything he wishes and though he is not one to actually get off on punching anyone, he has used a flogger on my face (not to erotically trail across it), has beaten me to where blood becomes a part of the play (actually he now loves this), and has physically used me to the point where I was either hysterical or throwing up profusely. Was it abuse? If I had not agreed to a TPE relationship I would say yes, but truth is I wanted a relationship where I could experience extremes with someone I shared love with, and I was not looking for another version of the safe vanilla relationships I have had in the past, or the ones where I was in total control of what happened and how, when, why...and yes, I have been in abusive relationships and got out, as well as had others around me experience the same and worse and look to me for help, so it is not because I am misguided and don't know when I am being abused or that I have a choice.

This is my choice and as perverse and sick as it may seem to some, I love it. It is that simple. But it is also a reminder of why I always caution people against jumping into such an agreement, just as F cautioned and forced me to take extra time thinking before making the step....once taken, it is not usually something you can reverse or switch off until you feel up to it again, and it is not a game to play to liven your life up a bit or impress others because as you know, most are not impressed and it is not always as fun as games are meant to be.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

To me, it's always in the outcome.

cat, I'd gather from your posts that you're happy and fulfilled in your relationship ALTHOUGH Francisco maintains the *right* to do a whole host of damned unpleasant things to you if he chooses.

I've never met an abused person who has the internal gleam of fulfillment. There's denial. There's evasion. There's not a convincing sense of "I love where I am, I am precisely where I love." I guess someone *could* pull it off, but people in fulfilling relationships, feeling they are at their potential broadcast this in a way that abuse would seem to prevent.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

... I've never met an abused person who has the internal gleam of fulfillment. There's denial. There's evasion. There's not a convincing sense of "I love where I am, I am precisely where I love." I guess someone *could* pull it off, but people in fulfilling relationships, feeling they are at their potential broadcast this in a way that abuse would seem to prevent.

Netzach, I could you! janey and I are trying to re-habilitate a rescued dog (approx 1 year old) who has been abused. Around janey he is pretty normal, playful, acts the puppy. Around me he cowers. On his belly, head down, sometimes his body shakes... his eyes are _ALWAYS_ watching me... And I've never laid a hand on him except to pet or scratch him (and a couple of times when he growled at me I've grabbed him by the throat and dominated him). But I've never, ever struck him in anger.

But OMG, if someone gets a broom out around him, he goes ape.

But we are making progress... twice tonight Caine came up to me when I called him, and let me pet and scratch him. He is still leery and skitish, and he moved away after a few moments of affection. I didn't even have a biscuit or treat to give him, but still he approached.

You can tell an abused person in the same kind of ways. They telegraph it loud and clear to anyone and everyone in their body language, their eyes, the way they carry themselves or speak about their partner... We just have to pay attention to it. And like our new pet, people take time to recover. It takes love, time, patience and LOTS of work to rebuild trust.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The mood I'm in this morning, I'm thinking we should all throw our hands in the air and let the authorities know that TPE and the lifestyle are breeding grounds for abuse and that subs are just the helpless victim waiting to happen and they need to stop it immediately. Sheesh, Netz and EG (BTW EG, we have 2 cats who were severly abused and I managed to gain their trust gradually over the time we have had them to them actually being brave enough to step onto our laps now, though they will always be skittish I fear, especially in unfamiliar situations), why is it we have to keep harping back to abused women as an example abuse can happen in a TPE relationship when that is a different situation, namely one which is non-consensual and from the vanilla pool where TPE and D/s are not heard of by most or areas of D/s where choice is still an option? I am well aware of the effects of abuse, both on a personal and professional level, but as I have always said, people need to be more responsible about the position they get themselves into in regard to lifestyle choices and if they want to go into TPE without understanding what it might mean to their partner, or they want the option to turn it on and off according to their mood or otherwise claim abuse, perhaps they need to recognise that and not enter into TPE but rather choose a model which better suits them and their needs.

I know most here are not big on defining anything and claiming everything is open to any interpretation and definition and it all depends on the people involved to make that interpretation in the interests of keeping everyone happy....well yes, it does to a point (though I still don't think I can call what I see as a sub a Dom/me and vv), but this is one situation where I think Total and Power Exchange give a fairly good indication of what is usually accepted will be involved and should not be encouraged by others to affix their own interpretation of widely varying degrees because they like to say they live TPE but really don't want what goes with it, or don't understand it. We also are good at sprouting the SSC and/or RACK message....do either of those concepts fit with telling someone who might be asking about TPE that it is OK love, you can be TPE and not have to give up your rights, can keep your safewords and limits, not do anything you don't feel like, expect to be loved and cherished and treated like a princess with nothing to do all day but be waited on by your PYL, and basically decide what it is for you and operate accordingly and hope your partner goes along with it? I personally prefer to give them the understanding I have always read and heard discussed widely which never mentioned it being an on/off thing, or a situation where you had the right to take back your power when you feel you want or need to, and at least let them make an informed choice while also not blackening the reputation of TPE which suffers enough from people not getting it, usually because they get it but it is not their thing so concentrate on the extreme negatives.

My or you saying abuse can or can't happen really doesn't change a thing IMHO...if someone feels abused, it matters little whether they are vanilla, TPE, or Martian...what matters is they are able to deal with it, but even more importantly, they do not get into the TPE situation believing it is one thing when it is the complete opposite and then screaming abuse...in that situation there should never have been an opportunity for them to get caught out through lack of knowledge of what they were getting into and I for one do not feel comfortable painting pretty pictures and leading them to believe it is a walk in the park and they can jump off the minute things are not to their liking, only to have them wind up an abuse victim simply because they were not informed well enough, nor do I believe that I want to be part of a description which tells them it is abusive because it is not directed by the sub's limits and they no longer maintain the freedom to choose what they will or will not do. I am quite happy to scare them silly and so stop them taking that step if that is not what they were wanting, more so then hear them tell of how they were abused because they didn't realise what was ahead of them. Giving factual information even if it isn't pretty counts more than misleading them up a path of misguided PC efforts to being open to letting them interpret it in their own way regardless of the realities. Sorry if it offends as it is not meant to, but I do not see how we can continue to maintain we promote safe messages when we take on this 'anything goes as long as you personally want to define it that way' generic message applied to every term and role.

I just don't understand why we have adopted this one size fits all way of defining everything i the lifestyle...in the mainstream it is fairly clear if you say you are a doctor that you either are a medical doctor of some type or have an academic doctorate in a field...if you are a nurse most people understand what it is you are trained to do and the areas/places you may be working...if you are working as a car salesman they expect you sell cars not round up cattle on a ranch...why do we then not feel we can safely define anything without treading on someone's toes and give this freedom to redefine everything according to each individual person and what they want to say it is? Are we becoming that directionless?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

The mood I'm in this morning, I'm thinking we should all throw our hands in the air and let the authorities know that TPE and the lifestyle are breeding grounds for abuse and that subs are just the helpless victim waiting to happen and they need to stop it immediately. Sheesh, Netz and EG (BTW EG, we have 2 cats who were severly abused and I managed to gain their trust gradually over the time we have had them to them actually being brave enough to step onto our laps now, though they will always be skittish I fear, especially in unfamiliar situations), why is it we have to keep harping back to abused women as an example abuse can happen in a TPE relationship when that is a different situation, namely one which is non-consensual and from the vanilla pool where TPE and D/s are not heard of by most or areas of D/s where choice is still an option? I am well aware of the effects of abuse, both on a personal and professional level, but as I have always said, people need to be more responsible about the position they get themselves into in regard to lifestyle choices and if they want to go into TPE without understanding what it might mean to their partner, or they want the option to turn it on and off according to their mood or otherwise claim abuse, perhaps they need to recognise that and not enter into TPE but rather choose a model which better suits them and their needs.

I know most here are not big on defining anything and claiming everything is open to any interpretation and definition and it all depends on the people involved to make that interpretation in the interests of keeping everyone happy....well yes, it does to a point (though I still don't think I can call what I see as a sub a Dom/me and vv), but this is one situation where I think Total and Power Exchange give a fairly good indication of what is usually accepted will be involved and should not be encouraged by others to affix their own interpretation of widely varying degrees because they like to say they live TPE but really don't want what goes with it, or don't understand it. We also are good at sprouting the SSC and/or RACK message....do either of those concepts fit with telling someone who might be asking about TPE that it is OK love, you can be TPE and not have to give up your rights, can keep your safewords and limits, not do anything you don't feel like, expect to be loved and cherished and treated like a princess with nothing to do all day but be waited on by your PYL, and basically decide what it is for you and operate accordingly and hope your partner goes along with it? I personally prefer to give them the understanding I have always read and heard discussed widely which never mentioned it being an on/off thing, or a situation where you had the right to take back your power when you feel you want or need to, and at least let them make an informed choice while also not blackening the reputation of TPE which suffers enough from people not getting it, usually because they get it but it is not their thing so concentrate on the extreme negatives.

My or you saying abuse can or can't happen really doesn't change a thing IMHO...if someone feels abused, it matters little whether they are vanilla, TPE, or Martian...what matters is they are able to deal with it, but even more importantly, they do not get into the TPE situation believing it is one thing when it is the complete opposite and then screaming abuse...in that situation there should never have been an opportunity for them to get caught out through lack of knowledge of what they were getting into and I for one do not feel comfortable painting pretty pictures and leading them to believe it is a walk in the park and they can jump off the minute things are not to their liking, only to have them wind up an abuse victim simply because they were not informed well enough, nor do I believe that I want to be part of a description which tells them it is abusive because it is not directed by the sub's limits and they no longer maintain the freedom to choose what they will or will not do. I am quite happy to scare them silly and so stop them taking that step if that is not what they were wanting, more so then hear them tell of how they were abused because they didn't realise what was ahead of them. Giving factual information even if it isn't pretty counts more than misleading them up a path of misguided PC efforts to being open to letting them interpret it in their own way regardless of the realities. Sorry if it offends as it is not meant to, but I do not see how we can continue to maintain we promote safe messages when we take on this 'anything goes as long as you personally want to define it that way' generic message applied to every term and role.

I just don't understand why we have adopted this one size fits all way of defining everything i the lifestyle...in the mainstream it is fairly clear if you say you are a doctor that you either are a medical doctor of some type or have an academic doctorate in a field...if you are a nurse most people understand what it is you are trained to do and the areas/places you may be working...if you are working as a car salesman they expect you sell cars not round up cattle on a ranch...why do we then not feel we can safely define anything without treading on someone's toes and give this freedom to redefine everything according to each individual person and what they want to say it is? Are we becoming that directionless?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

so cat, are you saying that your way of TPE, is the only 'real' TPE way of living? forgive me if i'm rewording what you said, but this is what i got when i read you're post. we say that it is however the people involved want it to be because that's how it should be. the right way for you is not the right for me and the right way for me is not the right way for you. this thread was NOT meant to make those living in a TPE feel attacked or like i was questioning whether or not they are being abused, as i dont' feel that is the case, it was simply meant as a discussion and to see how others felt about the topic. that's it, no more, no less, it was not meant to make anyone feel they need to defend their relationship by 'proving' they are not being abused, if you say you are happy in your relationship and that you believe your Dom has the right to do whatever they want (even if that includes just coming home and punching you in the face for no other reason than they can) then fine, i believe you. i was not talking about anyone's relationship in particular and i'm glad that i've gotten the input that i have on this topic, but sometimes cat, it really seems like you keep 'defending' your relationship, like every thread made on TPE is somehow undermining what TPE really is and that you defend it everytime. i am in NO WAY undermining what TPE is, and i wasn't ONLY talking about those in a TPE relationship, i've said this over and over, i'm talking about abuse in a D/s relationship, period.

you say there could never be abuse in your relationship because you have a TPE, and that's fine, if that's what works for you. but in my opinion, to say "he has the right to abuse me because i gave him consent" just doesn't work for me. i would NEVER consent to being abused, TPE or not..NEVER....if i were to be in a TPE relationship, there would be many many discussions of what it would involve and my Dom would know that i would tolerate NO amount of abuse just because He's on a power trip, and feels like 'beating me down' when he gets home from work. he would have to respect me and cherish me enough to NOT to even WANT to abuse me in any way, and again i am not talking about extreme play here, i am talking about full on abuse, hitting me simply because it's what he felt like doing at that time. you say this is fine with you as you consented to it when going TPE, and again, i believe you, but for me, that wouldn't fly and if after we discussed this, he didn't want to enter into it because i set too many limits, then so be it, and that just means that's not the person or type of relationship for me. it doesn't mean that i have an unrealistic view of TPE...do you and i have a different view of TPE? yes, we do. but does that make either of us wrong?? no, it doesn't, it makes us different, that's all.

we keep going on in this circular discussion about what true TPE is and now you're asking why isn't it the same for everyone. the answer to that is simple, because EVERYONE is different, has different feelings, different needs, etc..that does not make one person wrong and the other right, it makes them two people with seperate ideas and feelings. to say that we should tell everyone that TPE is living the life that you do, would be lying as maybe that's not how they want or need to live their life. what i'm saying is there is not ONE set way of living this lifestyle, there are tons of differences between each person and each relationship. to say that one thing is right for everyone is nuts. it's not about being PC it's about realizing we are all different and interpret things differently.

this is NOT the discussion i was hoping for when i started this thread, not at all and i realize discussions change and such but it just feels like you are 'defending' your relationship or your TPE and that's not what the thread was intended for. i seriously just wanted others views on abuse in the lifestyle. period. that's it....i thank you for your input in the thread and hope i have not now managed to upset you or make you mad at me, but i'm trying to explain myself and this thread a little better so that maybe you won't feel you need to defend, or maybe i'm reading your posts wrong and that's not what you're doing at all. i don't know as it's 6:30 in the morning and i've still not been to bed so i guess i'll end my post here.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

You might be surprised....perhaps he does abuse her too....it is not uncommon, and it is not something the new wife usually shares with the former partner. It also could be he is maintaining that history first as he did with you, before the abuse begins. No doubt he has learned a few lessons from his experience with you, but I doubt any of them include ending his life as an abuser...usually they just learn to hide it better, use the abuse to gain more control, and present a much safer picture to anyone on the outside of the relationship so it also minimises anyone believing the abused if they speak out.

Catalina

he has been with her for the whole time we've been divorced. our divorce was final on a friday, he married her the next day. he has raised his hand at her one time and she called the cops and pressed charges on him. they don't have a great relationship 100% of the time but he does not hit her or emotionally abuse her the way he did me. her and i are friends and she tells me alot about their relationship and complains alot too lol...but she is not scared of him the way i was and i can see that in her eyes and the way she interacts with him. and again, as i said, i'm glad he doesn't do those things to her. i don't know, obviously i'm not with the 24/7 but my kids even tell me they never fight *shrugs* him and i just didn't work out, but we are good friends now, which i'm glad for, since we do have kids together....

 

[MasterPhoenix]

OK, I am going to chime back in on this thread because I see some semantical arguments, and other things that are taking away from the question at hand.

* If there is consent either express or implied, as well as mutual enjoyment it is not abuse.

* Different people have different lines of 'consent' and definitions of what abuse is.

With the above said, can abuse happen in the BDSM lifestyle? Hell yes. I am not talking about pushing a scene too far, or going into the extremes of play. I am talking about someone calling themselves Master Joe can manipulate a submissive, especially a novice submissive into believing that he is this great and wonderful guy, then when they start to play he can murder her. Is that an extreme? You bet your ass it is. Does it happen? unfortunately it does. I know someone who came face to face with a serial killer who perported to be a Dominant, but she got away before anything could happen to her. It happens! Be Careful!

 

[lil_slave_rose]

OK, I am going to chime back in on this thread because I see some semantical arguments, and other things that are taking away from the question at hand.

* If there is consent either express or implied, as well as mutual enjoyment it is not abuse.

* Different people have different lines of 'consent' and definitions of what abuse is.

With the above said, can abuse happen in the BDSM lifestyle? Hell yes. I am not talking about pushing a scene too far, or going into the extremes of play. I am talking about someone calling themselves Master Joe can manipulate a submissive, especially a novice submissive into believing that he is this great and wonderful guy, then when they start to play he can murder her. Is that an extreme? You bet your ass it is. Does it happen? unfortunately it does. I know someone who came face to face with a serial killer who perported to be a Dominant, but she got away before anything could happen to her. It happens! Be Careful!

i'm talking about those who have been in a D/s relationship for a long time too, not just those who chat online with a Dom and think he is the shit, and then go to meet him only to find out he's a psycho...... thank You for chiming in again AND for making some very good points *smiles*

 

[catalina_francisco]

so cat, are you saying that your way of TPE, is the only 'real' TPE way of living?

No, though I do tend to be a bit pedantic about words and their meaning and I have never read in any dictionary where the word total can mean partial

(this is just one online dictionary entry but it doesn't say partial or part time either:Main Entry: 1to·tal
Pronunciation: 'tO-t&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin totalis, from Latin totus whole, entire
1 : comprising or constituting a whole : ENTIRE <the total amount>
2 : ABSOLUTE, UTTER <a total failure> <a total stranger>
3 : involving a complete and unified effort especially to achieve a desired effect <total war> <total theater>
synonym see WHOLE)

and TPE does stand for 'total' power exchange....I just get tired of every term, every role, every word we discuss being said it can mean whatever the people involved want it to mean and then expecting people to understand each other and be able to communicate. If we want to talk about 'is abuse possible', this to me is providing one of the most perfect vehicles for abuse to be made possible with a great fall back for the abuser in being able to say 'well, for me it meant xyz, how was I supposed to know for them it meant abc?' and be justified because basically if you can change the meaning of one term, why not change the meaning of every word in the english language to suit ourselves?...and that to me is where the abuse lies, in the changing of meanings to fit 1,000 and 1 different variations and expecting safety to follow. And then how the heck can we even hope to communicate if we don't even maintain the basic understanding for words like total...not a big word, not a complicated word, not even a BDSM specific word, and yet here it can mean anything from completely to just on a rare occasion when you feel like it. If you get an account and pay it and get a receipt saying it has been paid in total and then the company comes back and says you still have more to pay, if you take it to court I doubt the law will support the company once they see their notice to you that you had paid in total all that was owing.....I can't see why it is different for us.

It just seems to me if we are going to hold ourselves up to be so fair minded, so knowledgeable about that which we speak and do, not to mention rolling out advice to just about every new poster about how important communication is and how we need to understand each other and be responsible, and how we need to play safe, that we need to look at practicing what we preach and making communication easier by sticking to the generally understood meaning of words, and having the backbone to stand up and say well yes, total does still mean total and that is why it is called total power exchange and not partial? My point is as much as people want to keep coming back to abuse being possible in TPE, while being careful to point out they understand I and others are happy...but, they need to recognise that for abuse to be a possible and legitimate concern, power cannot have been exchanged in the first place and also cannot be taken back on a whim....that is why it is important to think hard before entering it.

As to my way being the only way, no, as we have seen osg, sinnocent1 and I are all part of TPE relationships with slight variations, but we all share the commonality of seeing it as being total and it actually being that way. I can also see someone could have a TPE on a previously negotiated time frame such as for 1 week/month/year etc. It is not my way, but for the period agreed upon, power exchange would be total. I can't see it as being switched on and off according to what the sub wants in the moment, or meaning that there are limits imposed by the pyl or that it is entered into on the understanding only nice things or agreed upon things will take place as that to me is another way of the sub having limits and also directing the process and thus, not exchanging their power for total anything. I also see a submissive as someone who submits, and yet we also see it mentioned it can be whatever the people involved want....so then in theory it could actually mean to someone that they are in charge and the PYL is the one who does what they are told..it just seems to me we are saying because we are in BDSM we are special and we can do whatever we want with the language, not to mention the generally accepted meanings within the lifestyle, and then get our knickers in a knot when someone misunderstands. You can't have it both ways IMO. It is also a reason I have been given by some who have vast experience in RL D/s not bothering with the forum as they see it as strange, not to mention arrogant, we seem to think we can rewrite the whole BDSM terminology that has worked fine for decades of practitioners and appoint our own individual definitions.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/376615023_c81f9c8c7c_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Etoile]

so cat, are you saying that your way of TPE, is the only 'real' TPE way of living? forgive me if i'm rewording what you said, but this is what i got when i read you're post.

To be honest, that's how I read a lot of Cat's posts. She works so hard to get us to understand her reality, that sometimes it seems like she's saying that it IS reality. But she has said elsewhere that she knows her way is just one way. I have seen her demonstrate respect for alternative approaches, and she has acknowledged other forms of TPE as "real" too. (Heck, her TPE and my TPE are so different, I was amazed when she said mine was valid too!) So I think the reason it sounds like she's saying her way is the only way is because she's on the defensive. The reason she says "my reality" all the time is because she knows it's different from others' realities...but not more or less valid.

Cat, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth here. I just wanted to give a third-party perspective on things.

 

[JMohegan]

When I talk to groups about intimate partner violence (IPV - still called domestic violence in most settings) and BDSM questions come up I refer to this sort of list. It can be a hard question to consider, but as far as I am concerned it is the sub/bottom that is the one that knows when the line is crossed. I understand that some of the items listed here may not be agreed to by all here. It is more about the total frame of mind then each and every line.

The key difference between S&M and Abuse, is "consent".
* Consent = Is an agreed approval of what is done and/or proposed by another.
* Abuse = to use so as to injure or damage.

S&M
* Is based on the safe, sane, consensual theory
* S&M is a controlled environment
* S&M has safe words to stop the scene
* In a S&M scene the dominant looks out for the well being of the submissive
* S&M can be an erotic sexual encounter
* In S&M both partners are enjoying themselves
* in S&M the dominant respects limits
* In S&M there is mutual respect
* In S&M the relationship is fulfilling
* In S&M both parties feel they contribute towards the relationships
* In S&M one can ask their partner to "play"
* In S&M relationship there is trust
* In S&M a submissive voluntarily serves the dominant
* S&M is about building trust
* S&M builds self esteem
* S&M builds the spirit of a submissive


Abuse
* Abuse is not negotiated
* Abuse is an out of control environment
* Abuse does not have safe words
* An abuser does not give a damn about the victim
* Abuse is always one sided
* Abuse is never negotiated.
* In abuse, no one is enjoying the results
* The abuser is into non consensual violence
* The victim has no respect towards the abuser
* In abuse the victim is harmed
* In abuse both parties are left unfulfilled
* The abuser always feel they are superior
* A person does not ask for abuse
* In an abusive relationship there is no trust
* The abuser does not care for consent
* Abuse has no trust
* Abuse destroys self esteem
* An abuser destroys the spirit of the victim



.

This is an excellent outline of the argument I'd expect my kink-friendly lawyer to make in court if the cops ever bust down my door and catch me mid-swing. I understand why consent would be given top billing in this context and appreciate the distinction being made.

But it seems to me that the question of consent is only relevant to a discussion of culpability or behavioral justification, and therefore only tangentially related to the essence of abuse itself.

Abuse = to use so as to injure or damage.

I agree.

But the opposite is not consent, as in: she really wanted me to do this.

The opposite is the absence of abuse, as in: she was not injured or damaged.

Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

Yes, of course. The lifestyle itself does not give you a magic shield that protects you from being harmed.

Pick any relationship of any flavor.

If one person in that relationship has suffered a material and sustained reduction in self-esteem, cognitive functioning, physical health, and/or ability to function productively in the outside world, and this reduction has occurred because of the physical and/or verbal behavior of his/her partner, then the former has been abused and the latter is an abuser.

The determination of a material decline in health and well-being itself has nothing to do with questions about the extent of consent or the type of lifestyle the couple does or does not embrace.

Culpability is a separate topic.

The willingness or desire of one partner to sacrifice her health or well-being for another is a separate topic.

Whether, or what, should be done is a separate topic.

A decline in health and well-being is a decline in health and well-being. Period. That's the effect of abuse and the essence of the concept as I see it.

 

[Etoile]

I want to bring up two words that have been knocking around in my head as I read this thread: Delia Day.

For those who may not be familiar with the story, Delia Day was a 24/7 TPE slave who shot and killed her husband/Owner a few years ago. She was acquitted because the jury saw it as self-defense, because her M/s relationship was seen as abusive.

We don't know the truth about Delia Day, and I don't think we ever will know why she killed her husband. But what if she was abused? Does that invalidate the description of her as a "lifestyle" slave? This thread is titled abuse in the lifestyle, but I would suggest that once a system of abuse is taking place, it isn't lifestyle any longer. She had committed herself to him in the same way as Catalina and osg, with no limits - but clearly she felt something had changed, something was wrong, and there was only one way out.

 

[catalina_francisco]

To be honest, that's how I read a lot of Cat's posts. She works so hard to get us to understand her reality, that sometimes it seems like she's saying that it IS reality. But she has said elsewhere that she knows her way is just one way. I have seen her demonstrate respect for alternative approaches, and she has acknowledged other forms of TPE as "real" too. (Heck, her TPE and my TPE are so different, I was amazed when she said mine was valid too!) So I think the reason it sounds like she's saying her way is the only way is because she's on the defensive. The reason she says "my reality" all the time is because she knows it's different from others' realities...but not more or less valid.

Cat, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth here. I just wanted to give a third-party perspective on things.

No forgiveness needed. I have learned over the years here you need to try and remember all these little phrases to include in posts or you get jumped on by someone at some point...and from time to time I do forget when in a hurry or such, and usually someone will jump on the fact I have not said IMO or IMHO or my reality or such and so must be speaking for all. It strikes me as ridiculous sometimes as we are adults, and for those of us who have been around awhile we should know how the other means it without having to be explicit and over wordy, but alas, we are all human, even moi.

I think it fine people apply their own terms to relationships they are in, it is natural, but it isn't always easy for others to automatically understand when it means they remove themselves very far from the original definition or normally accepted understanding of words and terms involved. Nor does it then mean that because one person sees TPE as being anything but total so in their world it would mean they were open to abuse and also free to leave or revoke all consent, to then apply that understanding and guideline to another's where the choice is not remotely in the pyl's court and as such abuse as we understand it is not an issue. I would hate to be someone trying to learn english!! I see this need to make everything generic and interchangeable in language as just an extension of the society we live in as a whole where it seems the individual is discouraged, commitment to anything is bad, and standing up for your beliefs, ethics and ideals is absolute sin..I still have not recovered my shock at being told while I was counselling that though it was recognised I could achieve results the others I worked with couldn't, and that it had at times possibly saved women from disaster or worse, it was more important to be part of the team, do things as a team, even if it meant the outcome was not successful or efficient, and someone's life was put at risk as a result...but I have heard others being told the same in their professions. Maybe I am getting old, I just think the world, or western capitalist world anyway, has seriously lost the plot to what really matters and gotten lost in trying to design a lot of illusions at the expense of acknowledging the realities.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/152/379518922_f20116d9b2_t.jpg Catalina

 

[liberatedslave]

I just don't understand why we have adopted this one size fits all way of defining everything i the lifestyle...in the mainstream it is fairly clear if you say you are a doctor that you either are a medical doctor of some type or have an academic doctorate in a field...if you are a nurse most people understand what it is you are trained to do and the areas/places you may be working...if you are working as a car salesman they expect you sell cars not round up cattle on a ranch...why do we then not feel we can safely define anything without treading on someone's toes and give this freedom to redefine everything according to each individual person and what they want to say it is? Are we becoming that directionless?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

I found this a really thought provoking post because it does seem (and particularly here in the UK) that political correctness and a total fear of upsetting anyone means that there is a YMMV approach to almost everything. TPE the way Catalina has described it can't be an area where this is possible as the nature of TPE in this sense it that it IS total and irrevocable to boot.

I know that I'm definitely not ready for TPE myself and nor is Sir right now but that's fine and healthy. If and when we do reach that point I would see it as more binding than marriage because of the nature of our D/s dynamic and because I do understand what he would be asking of me.

On another thread, cat was asked what she'd do if F went psychotic and ordered her to kill somebody and her reply was that she'd rather stick around and help him if he was that unwell than run screaming from the relationship. That to me is true evidence of Catalina's devotion to her committment and the responsibility she has for her end of it.

It does take a great deal of love and trust to make the committment to TPE without any form of get out clause but Catalina was informed in her choice as she says and any PYL can become mentally ill and become unreasonable, they just have a different dynamic with a different way of responding to each other if that ever happens. Catalina might get alzheimer's in her old age and tell F exactly where to get off when he gives an order, would he then simply disregard her years of service and get rid of her? Of course not!

There are married couples in my town who lived through a world war and then the next fifty years as a happy couple because they communicated and cared for each other. Why do we expect D/s relationships to have so much fine print attached? It would be incredibly difficult for me to give up my safeword and my freedom to leave but if I did that the responsibility and the consequences would be mine. I may never do that but at least I'm being true to my own limits and needs.

I do think there should be accepted definitions for lifestyle terms such as Dom/me, sub, slave, top, bottom rather than such open interpretations. Even the term PYL/pyl seems a cop out to me, a non-label. I think that new people would be reassured that they had a fair idea what was meant by there words and if posters want to qualify their personal take on them that's a separate issue.

Sorry if I've hijacked the debate, just thought it was a really interesting point.

 

[Tara1991]

No....No.....Noooo...

Lil slave Rose...Being a Dom doesn't mean beating the shit out of your Sub.....If you've not learned by now that being a Sub or a Dom means that everything.....and I mean everything is done with love and satisfaction on both sides.....Whats the use of beating your Sub bloody and senseless? Yes of course you punish them but you always do it with love, caring, tenderness, The one thing a Sub has to have is the knowledge that her Master loves her, that everything he does is for her own good.....A Sub has to know she is wanted and needed and if a Master cannot do that then he is just a sadist doing it for his own satisfaction.....and that is not a D/S situation A D/S relationship is like a marriage, there has to be give and take on both sides, where you both try to please each other. If that is not happenning Lil slave Rose, then I think it's time you started looking for someone who is a true Master and a true lover, someone you can live with....not someone you can't live without......

 

[catalina_francisco]

I want to bring up two words that have been knocking around in my head as I read this thread: Delia Day.

For those who may not be familiar with the story, Delia Day was a 24/7 TPE slave who shot and killed her husband/Owner a few years ago. She was acquitted because the jury saw it as self-defense, because her M/s relationship was seen as abusive.

We don't know the truth about Delia Day, and I don't think we ever will know why she killed her husband. But what if she was abused? Does that invalidate the description of her as a "lifestyle" slave? This thread is titled abuse in the lifestyle, but I would suggest that once a system of abuse is taking place, it isn't lifestyle any longer. She had committed herself to him in the same way as Catalina and osg, with no limits - but clearly she felt something had changed, something was wrong, and there was only one way out.

I hadn't forgotten her, but as you say we don't know what happened exactly or even if she knew or intended to shoot her husband/Owner so I am not sure it is true to say she obviously felt something had changed and this was the only way out. Wasn't there some discussion in a previous thread about her that she or they had been harrassed by a neighbour and it could have been she thought it was him coming into the house? But it is a point which I mention in that you have to be sure what you are getting into before getting into it, and accept it may reach a point where you really want out...does that mean you can make that choice? For us it doesn't and I am aware of how dangerous that makes it for both of us, but I still hesitate to say it would be abuse on his part if he drove me to that point as I accepted his right to make those decisions free of any limits from me.

For me it is a little like planning to murder someone, doing it, and then when caught and sentenced saying it wasn't really murder or anything I should be held responsible for as I didn't expect to be caught and wouldn't have done it if I knew I was going to be made to pay for it. It is still murder, and it is the responsibility you take for crossing those lines. Being ever curious, I would still love to know what the real story is on Delia, and find it strange/unusual it has been so well suppressed from seeing the light of day anywhere.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I found this a really thought provoking post because it does seem (and particularly here in the UK) that political correctness and a total fear of upsetting anyone means that there is a YMMV approach to almost everything. TPE the way Catalina has described it can't be an area where this is possible as the nature of TPE in this sense it that it IS total and irrevocable to boot.

I'm glad it provoked thought. LOL, poor man, F is more likely to have to put up with a nutty slave than the other way around...I swear most days I am already more than halfway there!!

Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

But what if she was abused? Does that invalidate the description of her as a "lifestyle" slave? This thread is titled abuse in the lifestyle, but I would suggest that once a system of abuse is taking place, it isn't lifestyle any longer.

I understand the urge to distance ourselves from DV, IPV, etc., and can appreciate why you answer the question this way.

But I have a hard time getting my head around the concept of a "lifestyle" that doesn't have real people living in it. And any group of real people will, unfortunately, have some who make gross errors in judgment, others who behave in a cruel way without regard for the consequences of their words or actions, others who lash out in anger, others whose fundamental insecurity prompts them to push down another to prop themselves up, etc.

My personal concept of right vs. wrong says that no human being has the right to harm another, mentally or physically, in a material and sustained way. Injuring or damaging another human being is wrong.

Therefore, my answer to your question is to say that a relationship of *any* flavor becomes illegitimate once a system of abuse takes place.

Abuse in a lifestyle relationship doesn't suddenly kick the relationship out of the Lifestyle Club (i.e., render it "vanilla"). Per my moral code, once abuse occurs the flavor is irrelevant and the relationship itself is void in a de facto sense.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I understand the urge to distance ourselves from DV, IPV, etc., and can appreciate why you answer the question this way.

But I have a hard time getting my head around the concept of a "lifestyle" that doesn't have real people living in it. And any group of real people will, unfortunately, have some who make gross errors in judgment, others who behave in a cruel way without regard for the consequences of their words or actions, others who lash out in anger, others whose fundamental insecurity prompts them to push down another to prop themselves up, etc.

My personal concept of right vs. wrong says that no human being has the right to harm another, mentally or physically, in a material and sustained way. Injuring or damaging another human being is wrong.

Therefore, my answer to your question is to say that a relationship of *any* flavor becomes illegitimate once a system of abuse takes place.

Abuse in a lifestyle relationship doesn't suddenly kick the relationship out of the Lifestyle Club (i.e., render it "vanilla"). Per my moral code, once abuse occurs the flavor is irrelevant and the relationship itself is void in a de facto sense.

The only problem with this thought pattern that does not allow that some may accept particular behaviours within their relationship is it then becomes subject to someone else to decide what is abusive, and unfortunately, most in the vanilla pool who see anything of our lifestyle which goes beyond light bondage will claim it is abusive. For that matter, I have had PM's from posters on this forum telling me I was being abused and/or sick because we indulge in cutting and branding as a form of marking, and we like and participate in SM play...so it isn't as simple as saying someone is abused because they participated in acts which the observer considers abusive...the decison lies with those within the relationship, not someone outside who couldn't even contemplate being in that type relationship.

Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

The only problem with this thought pattern that does not allow that some may accept particular behaviours within their relationship is it then becomes subject to someone else to decide what is abusive, and unfortunately, most in the vanilla pool who see anything of our lifestyle which goes beyond light bondage will claim it is abusive. For that matter, I have had PM's from posters on this forum telling me I was being abused and/or sick because we indulge in cutting and branding as a form of marking, and we like and participate in SM play...so it isn't as simple as saying someone is abused because they participated in acts which the observer considers abusive...the decison lies with those within the relationship, not someone outside who couldn't even contemplate being in that type relationship.

It isn't the action itself, it's the effect of the action on the subject that makes it abuse.

If both partners love extremely rough and aggressive sex, no problem. But if he slams her head into the floor too hard or too often, and her cognitive functioning is permanently impaired, then she's been abused.

If both partners get off on humiliation/degradation, no problem. But if the cumulative effect of the mindfucks or verbal degradation results in a material and sustained reduction in her sense of self-worth and ability to function happily and confidently in the world at large, then she's been abused.

No matter what the two people in the relationship decide, her brain has been damaged in the first case and her ability to function has been impaired in the second.

That's abuse, as I see it.

 

[Netzach]

Yeah, as I said its in outcomes. And you can delineate that I have the "right" to do those things to my slave till the cows come home, but the outside world does eventually come into play. Accidents happen, but IF they happen, I'm still beholden to the outcomes.

I would say that the above activties fall under the umbrella of 1. abuse

2. MIS-use.

Can we say that we might have SOME standards within the M/s world that define MIS-use of a human property?

 

[Netzach]

1. Use.

I inform H that I think it's time to stop playing dress up and he's going to be a woman. I remove his option to wear male attire, order him to avail himself of hormones at the MD and begin a serious program of speech and presentation so that he will ultimately be able to obey me by presenting as a female at all times.

(I don't believe in doing this, per se, but this is theoretical.)

2. Misuse

I inform H that he is going to be a woman. I begin by removing his nuts with a pair of scissors.

 

[ownedsubgal]

No, though I do tend to be a bit pedantic about words and their meaning and I have never read in any dictionary where the word total can mean partial

(this is just one online dictionary entry but it doesn't say partial or part time either:Main Entry: 1to·tal
Pronunciation: 'tO-t&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin totalis, from Latin totus whole, entire
1 : comprising or constituting a whole : ENTIRE <the total amount>
2 : ABSOLUTE, UTTER <a total failure> <a total stranger>
3 : involving a complete and unified effort especially to achieve a desired effect <total war> <total theater>
synonym see WHOLE)

and TPE does stand for 'total' power exchange....I just get tired of every term, every role, every word we discuss being said it can mean whatever the people involved want it to mean and then expecting people to understand each other and be able to communicate. If we want to talk about 'is abuse possible', this to me is providing one of the most perfect vehicles for abuse to be made possible with a great fall back for the abuser in being able to say 'well, for me it meant xyz, how was I supposed to know for them it meant abc?' and be justified because basically if you can change the meaning of one term, why not change the meaning of every word in the english language to suit ourselves?...and that to me is where the abuse lies, in the changing of meanings to fit 1,000 and 1 different variations and expecting safety to follow. And then how the heck can we even hope to communicate if we don't even maintain the basic understanding for words like total...not a big word, not a complicated word, not even a BDSM specific word, and yet here it can mean anything from completely to just on a rare occasion when you feel like it. If you get an account and pay it and get a receipt saying it has been paid in total and then the company comes back and says you still have more to pay, if you take it to court I doubt the law will support the company once they see their notice to you that you had paid in total all that was owing.....I can't see why it is different for us.

It just seems to me if we are going to hold ourselves up to be so fair minded, so knowledgeable about that which we speak and do, not to mention rolling out advice to just about every new poster about how important communication is and how we need to understand each other and be responsible, and how we need to play safe, that we need to look at practicing what we preach and making communication easier by sticking to the generally understood meaning of words, and having the backbone to stand up and say well yes, total does still mean total and that is why it is called total power exchange and not partial? My point is as much as people want to keep coming back to abuse being possible in TPE, while being careful to point out they understand I and others are happy...but, they need to recognise that for abuse to be a possible and legitimate concern, power cannot have been exchanged in the first place and also cannot be taken back on a whim....that is why it is important to think hard before entering it.

As to my way being the only way, no, as we have seen osg, sinnocent1 and I are all part of TPE relationships with slight variations, but we all share the commonality of seeing it as being total and it actually being that way. I can also see someone could have a TPE on a previously negotiated time frame such as for 1 week/month/year etc. It is not my way, but for the period agreed upon, power exchange would be total. I can't see it as being switched on and off according to what the sub wants in the moment, or meaning that there are limits imposed by the pyl or that it is entered into on the understanding only nice things or agreed upon things will take place as that to me is another way of the sub having limits and also directing the process and thus, not exchanging their power for total anything. I also see a submissive as someone who submits, and yet we also see it mentioned it can be whatever the people involved want....so then in theory it could actually mean to someone that they are in charge and the PYL is the one who does what they are told..it just seems to me we are saying because we are in BDSM we are special and we can do whatever we want with the language, not to mention the generally accepted meanings within the lifestyle, and then get our knickers in a knot when someone misunderstands. You can't have it both ways IMO. It is also a reason I have been given by some who have vast experience in RL D/s not bothering with the forum as they see it as strange, not to mention arrogant, we seem to think we can rewrite the whole BDSM terminology that has worked fine for decades of practitioners and appoint our own individual definitions.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/376615023_c81f9c8c7c_t.jpg Catalina

Catalina, you would not believe how much i was nodding my head and saying "yes, yes!" to myself as i was reading this post and your post before it. it's like finally! someone has said it! and it wasn't me! lol. it drives me crazy how there can be no set definition, no concrete idea of ANYthing in this lifestyle, because it would leave someone out, hurt someone's feelings, offend someone, whatever. people take words and twist and/or completely redefine them to suit their needs....and no one's supposed to think anything of it!

yes, we are all different, we all have different needs. fortunately, the english language comes equipped with many different words (not just one or two...wild i know) we can use to describe all of these different needs and states of being. on another board i belonged to years ago, i had a big argument with someone who thought the definition of the word "slave" as written in the dictionary was far too limiting, therefore, her and her "Master" chose to define the word to mean, not property, not ownership, but rather to mean that she was his (kinda) to be controlled by him at certain times, with certain conditions, when she felt like it. everytime there was a discussion on the board regarding slavery, she would chime in, feeling fully entitled to represent herself as "slave" according to her particular definition that she and some guy made up one day. it became aggravating to the extreme, especially to see how it was clearly confusing newbies when 3 or 4 slaves would describe slavery as x, y, z, and this other "slave" would describe it as 5, 6 and 7. i decided to leave that particular board as it had just become too PC, YMMV for me.

but unfortunately it's the same story nearly everywhere online, and the idea has even creeped into offline communities. any word can mean any thing. you are whatever you say you are. recently we invited a couple over, just a casual drinks and chat sort of thing. Daddy hadn't communicated with them much, we really only knew that they considered themselves Master and slave, "24/7", TPE, etc. well within 2 minutes of their arrival, it was clear that they were none of the above. turns out that Master and slave were simply pet names to them, the entire "lifestyle" relationship was a roleplay, and when they weren't horny they operated like your typical vanilla couple. in addition, they were shocked and horrified when they found that Daddy and i actually were Master and slave "for real", that we took the lifestyle seriously, that it wasn't about sex, and that ANYone actually really lived this way. they had thought such a way of life was an internet myth.

it's just a really sad state of affairs to me, when you can barely communicate or interact with people because we can't agree on even the most simple or basic terminology. it's not that i believe by any means my idea of slavery, or TPE, or whatever else is "the one true way." Catalina and i for instance disagree on many things regarding the lifestyle, and our respective relationships are very different. however what we have in common is that we are both slaves, within the D/s M/s lifestyle, also known as a TPE or APE (whichever you prefer), and i can know this because she and her Master define these things as they are, and i don't have to pull out a "politically correct" bdsm dictionary to decipher what it is they mean.

 

[Arianna22]

I dont know if this will add anything new to this thread but never mind:
I was in an abusive relationship that ended a year ago. We also had a D/s relationship, but the two were completely different.

When he 'went abusive' he would change. His whole body and his eyes, everything. He would shout and throw things and yell names (to the point where I was terrified) at me and also throw things at the kittens (which were tiny kittens back then). If he was aiming this at me,generally I would cower and sob. The only time I felt able to retaliate was when he went for the kittens, as they were unable to protect themselves and could have easily been killed. This was abuse, not part of the D/s. It was anger, fury, completely uncontrolled and left me feeling... well.... I cant really describe it.

After a while it escalated to throwing things (including me once) and this I to this day have hidden from my friends and family. And yet to all those around us (apart from my family) I was in the wrong when i eventually managed to end it. Because I had 'hurt him' by leaving and saying it was over.

I am thankfully now in a new relationship and whilst it is not D/s, I would never, ever let another person make me feel the way he did. I am submissive, but I do not now think of myself so little that i would let him treat me the way my ex did.

If I liked that treatment and consented, I do not see it as abuse... but if, as in my situation, then I see that as abuse. No matter what the relationship. D/s or Vanilla... if something makes you feel so ... degraded and awful and a whole host of feelings I cant describe (which I think implies no consent has been given, otherwise why would you feel like that) then it is abuse.

*disclaimer* I am only speaking of course for myself and I appreciate that others have different views... sorry if I have offended anyone!