Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

[lil_slave_rose]

I'm definately glad you did. I've done a lot of reading here. I didn't even know what T.P.E was. I'm seeing how people define it, since there are no safe words, how do you define abuse under those circumstances? People were able to define it. Lots of explanation of things here, and disagreements.

I read to much, until my minds in almost a spin. lol I'm just very curious. Then I realize, I need to slow down or will forget things.

*smiles* well it also doesn't mean you have to take everyone's definitions and use them for yourself. i've read all of the replies and i still don't agree that if you are in a TPE that you consent to abuse of any kind (and again i'm not talking about accidents or extreme play) i STILL think that when you enter into that type of a relationship, the Dom should take that seriously and not ABUSE you simply because he could if he wanted to and it 'wouldn't' be abuse because to me, that IS abuse. he has your wellbeing in His hands, and if he harms you,well in my opinion then he has abused His power over you and used it in a negative way, and that is never ok, in my book. while i do appreciate what everyone is saying, i still don't think they are getting what my true question was, there have been alot of good debate going on..this is what i wanted when i started the thread. i love discussions especially when there is debate..not flaming, personal attacks......but debate..

 

[catalina_francisco]

catalina_francisco:
If you become a boxer say, and you say you accept there are legitimate risks, especially in long term cognitive areas....then a few years later, those risks become a reality, I don't believe that then makes what your opponents did in matches you consented to, as abuse."


When a boxer gets in the ring, they have a huge support network of trainers, coaches, sponsors, doctors, and insurance agents that have spent thousands of dollars preparing them for this moment. They have dozens of people ringside to help them if there's a problem. They have coaches and cameras that make sure no one breaks the rules, and will put a stop to the event if there's a problem.

So what you're saying is there is never an incident in boxing where it goes too far, where there is permanent damage either at the time or years later, and as long as money is involved it is must mean it is safe? LOL, sorry, I can't agree with you on that one. As to SM being one sided in terms of making sure things are not abusive, that is an easy out for the irresponsible sub who doesn't want to accept they had 50% responsibility for making the decision to play with SM and that to me is an idiot, but yes, there are lots of those around and they are usually the ones who want everyone to feel sorry for them if they choose a dipstick to play with. And once again, you are like others, feeling you have the knowledge to know what is abusive to another person based on what you yourself consider abusive if you were involved. I prefer to give people the right as adults to make that decision for themselves and not have the moral police in the privacy of our home telling us what we can and can't do according to their personal tastes.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

while i do appreciate what everyone is saying, i still don't think they are getting what my true question was

I think some of us have, if not most, but I don't think you understand where some of us have our heads in terms of this discussion. That is not meaning there is something wrong with you, it is as I said, a point which is very difficult to begin to relate to or understand until you reach a point yourself where the switch flicks for you and you feel it yourself. As I said, when we started out, many of the things we do and think nothing of these days, were on his list of unacceptable under any circumstances when we began. Once you begin living 24/7, have the luxury of being together all the time so if something goes wrong you are not worrying about being left alone while he goes home or leaving the other alone, and you can explore in a much more relaxed way, things change and what once was unbearable to think about actually becomes a desire. It is a growth process which takes place naturally and often without notice, and during it, some things which never made sense before, begin to make perfect sense.

Catalina

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I think some of us have, if not most, but I don't think you understand where some of us have our heads in terms of this discussion. That is not meaning there is something wrong with you, it is as I said, a point which is very difficult to begin to relate to or understand until you reach a point yourself where the switch flicks for you and you feel it yourself. As I said, when we started out, many of the things we do and think nothing of these days, were on his list of unacceptable under any circumstances when we began. Once you begin living 24/7, have the luxury of being together all the time so if something goes wrong you are not worrying about being left alone while he goes home or leaving the other alone, and you can explore in a much more relaxed way, things change and what once was unbearable to think about actually becomes a desire. It is a growth process which takes place naturally and often without notice, and during it, some things which never made sense before, begin to make perfect sense.

Catalina

That last part is something I have talked to her about many times And that is the time that many of the more hard core scenes we have discussed, and she already WANTS will start to happen.

 

[Lorelei_11]

*smiles* well it also doesn't mean you have to take everyone's definitions and use them for yourself. i've read all of the replies and i still don't agree that if you are in a TPE that you consent to abuse of any kind (and again i'm not talking about accidents or extreme play) i STILL think that when you enter into that type of a relationship, the Dom should take that seriously and not ABUSE you simply because he could if he wanted to and it 'wouldn't' be abuse because to me, that IS abuse. he has your wellbeing in His hands, and if he harms you,well in my opinion then he has abused His power over you and used it in a negative way, and that is never ok, in my book. while i do appreciate what everyone is saying, i still don't think they are getting what my true question was, there have been alot of good debate going on..this is what i wanted when i started the thread. i love discussions especially when there is debate..not flaming, personal attacks......but debate..

I know. I think about things and apply evidence and reason. I question things and have an open mind, just not so open my brains spill out on the pavement. *giggles*

I agree with you. The well being of the slave is necessary. I think the situation in TPE makes abuse easier to get away with. When I read, the power is exchanged once and for all time, I find that scary. I would never give consent to that. I read that things change, and the master can do as he wishes. No discussion and agreement is necessary for some people. Some say they still discuss it when new things come up.

Yes, debate and the sharing of ideas is a good thing. I listen and then decide what I think.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I think some of us have, if not most, but I don't think you understand where some of us have our heads in terms of this discussion. That is not meaning there is something wrong with you, it is as I said, a point which is very difficult to begin to relate to or understand until you reach a point yourself where the switch flicks for you and you feel it yourself. As I said, when we started out, many of the things we do and think nothing of these days, were on his list of unacceptable under any circumstances when we began. Once you begin living 24/7, have the luxury of being together all the time so if something goes wrong you are not worrying about being left alone while he goes home or leaving the other alone, and you can explore in a much more relaxed way, things change and what once was unbearable to think about actually becomes a desire. It is a growth process which takes place naturally and often without notice, and during it, some things which never made sense before, begin to make perfect sense.

Catalina

i do realize that once we are 24/7 things will be more relaxed, limits will change, hell my limits have changed just since i started out being His submissive. but that is NOT what i'm talking about here. everything you keep bringing up are 'extreme play' and have nothing to do with actual abuse. i understand taht you feel F has the right to abuse you if He so chooses, but does that mean He will??? tellin you, making you think He is going to cut off your nipple and then NOT doing it, is a mind fuck and i'm ok with that. the fact that he did not do it, shows He has your wellbeing first and formost in his mind, an abuser does not. that is the difference between a loving relationship and an abusive one. it's not that i don't understand where your minds are in answering my question, it's that i keep getting 'well in my relationship it's not abuse because _______. and that was not the question that was asked. the question that was asked was is it possible for there to be abuse in the lifestyle, not in your personal relationship.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

So what you're saying is there is never an incident in boxing where it goes too far, where there is permanent damage either at the time or years later, and as long as money is involved it is must mean it is safe? LOL, sorry, I can't agree with you on that one. As to SM being one sided in terms of making sure things are not abusive, that is an easy out for the irresponsible sub who doesn't want to accept they had 50% responsibility for making the decision to play with SM and that to me is an idiot, but yes, there are lots of those around and they are usually the ones who want everyone to feel sorry for them if they choose a dipstick to play with. And once again, you are like others, feeling you have the knowledge to know what is abusive to another person based on what you yourself consider abusive if you were involved. I prefer to give people the right as adults to make that decision for themselves and not have the moral police in the privacy of our home telling us what we can and can't do according to their personal tastes.

Catalina

so if a submissive is continually abused by her Dom than she is 50% at fault for choosing to submit to Him? sorry, cat i can't agree with you there. it doesn't make the sub irresponsible, it makes the Dom an abusive asshat. for myself i was in my relationship with my ex long before he started abusing me, he made me feel safe, and then a few years down the line the abuse started, why couldn't it be the same in a D/s relationship? again i am not talking about S&M activities...or anything that the submissive consents to. accidents happen and lines get crossed all of the time and you move on. but i'm not talking about accidents, or taking it further than the submissive was willing to go (crossing a line) people make mistakes all of the time..that's not what i intended to discuss when i started this thread, and that is why i said that most people are not understanding what my question was, the first thing they want to do is defend their relationship. i was not asking about anyone's relationship, i was asking the simple( or not so simple question, it seems) CAN there be abuse in the lifestyle.....

 

[Etoile]

Etoile:
"If she likes it, and you have her on a pedestal, is it really abuse?"

I think that if you have responsibility for another person's wellbeing then you damn well better look after it.

Oh, I agree completely. But what you quoted and what you said are two different things. The person I was responding to (who never replied, unfortunately) seemed to be saying that his partner likes rough sex, maybe a little face-slapping, etc. He didn't mean "I smash her head into the wall so hard she's knocked out, and she likes it!" That's why I was saying "is it really abuse" - because he didn't seem to understand the actual topic of this thread, and I was trying to make him think.

But yes, absolutely, if you are entrusted with someone's well-being, you damn well better take care of them.

 

[ownedsubgal]

i do realize that once we are 24/7 things will be more relaxed, limits will change, hell my limits have changed just since i started out being His submissive. but that is NOT what i'm talking about here. everything you keep bringing up are 'extreme play' and have nothing to do with actual abuse. i understand taht you feel F has the right to abuse you if He so chooses, but does that mean He will??? tellin you, making you think He is going to cut off your nipple and then NOT doing it, is a mind fuck and i'm ok with that. the fact that he did not do it, shows He has your wellbeing first and formost in his mind, an abuser does not. that is the difference between a loving relationship and an abusive one. it's not that i don't understand where your minds are in answering my question, it's that i keep getting 'well in my relationship it's not abuse because _______. and that was not the question that was asked. the question that was asked was is it possible for there to be abuse in the lifestyle, not in your personal relationship.

actually rose, i did respond to that very point, tho i don't know what it may be worth to you. i feel that abuse is very much possible in the lifestyle (and by that i mean anything from part-time BDSM to full-time TPE or M/s). unlike Catalina and Francisco, my Master and i do feel it is possible for him to abuse me, however we view abuse as just one more right he has in regards to me. also, unlike most, we do not engage in scening or bdsm play, so i would never reference those things when making a point. some would consider it abuse for a Man to come home after a long, difficult day at work and start punching and kicking his mate just because she is there, he can, and he needs to release the tension and frustration. some would consider it abuse for a Man to verbally and physically degrade his mate simply for his own sadistic delight. some would consider it abuse for a Man to intentionally cause significant injury to his Mate, requiring a trip to the ER or hospital. we would agree with these people, but say that, in the context of TPE or M/s, such treatment of a slave is entirely the Owner's perogative, and is not crossing any lines or boundaries because there are none within the relationship.

 

[Netzach]

they are usually the ones who want everyone to feel sorry for them if they choose a dipstick to play with...

Wow.

So who's judging other people by the standards of their preferences?

I've known submissive identified women who really were what both they and I would consider abused by Dominants. They weren't idiots. They weren't giving permission for their heads to be fucked, their property to be destroyed, their pets to be threatened - apparently you have some familiarity with DV.

They were not in arrangements where the behaviors were "ok" expected or agreed to.

So what's the deal? They're not really subs? They're stupid for picking the wrong partners? They have no business doing SM?

The SM community is far from free of the problems of the rest of the world. You can't have it both ways - if vanilla women aren't stupid for getting into situations where things change and their commitments might be nullified by a partner's behavior then submissive women are no *more* stupid.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

actually rose, i did respond to that very point, tho i don't know what it may be worth to you. i feel that abuse is very much possible in the lifestyle (and by that i mean anything from part-time BDSM to full-time TPE or M/s). unlike Catalina and Francisco, my Master and i do feel it is possible for him to abuse me, however we view abuse as just one more right he has in regards to me. also, unlike most, we do not engage in scening or bdsm play, so i would never reference those things when making a point. some would consider it abuse for a Man to come home after a long, difficult day at work and start punching and kicking his mate just because she is there, he can, and he needs to release the tension and frustration. some would consider it abuse for a Man to verbally and physically degrade his mate simply for his own sadistic delight. some would consider it abuse for a Man to intentionally cause significant injury to his Mate, requiring a trip to the ER or hospital. we would agree with these people, but say that, in the context of TPE or M/s, such treatment of a slave is entirely the Owner's perogative, and is not crossing any lines or boundaries because there are none within the relationship.

so, you know that you are being abused, but use excuses like 'He's Master, so it's His perogative' i mean that's kind of akin to a vanilla woman who says 'well yea, He abuses me, but i know he loves me' i'm not trying to offend or piss you off and it's probably going to, so i'll apologize right now for being harsh i've tried hard not to say my thoughts on 'your' relationship but after reading this i really need to give my opinion. it truly sounds like you are an abused woman (you admit that much) who makes excuses for her abuser. most of the time this is due to the fact the abused has no self esteem or self respect. and i'm sorry, but He does not respect you if you He Honestly abuses you. i can't say that different strokes for different folks applies to this. you recognize it as abuse and say it's ok because you have a TPE, again sounds like excuses to me. i don't understand (and i'm sure i'm not the only one) how if a Dom loves you, you are His property, why would He want to 'harm' His property. i know i'm probably pissing you off, and i don't normally speak about anyone's relationship, but your's sends up red flags to me, big time, and i truly hope one day you realize your self worth and that you dont' deserve the abuse, and that's all i'm going to say, i will not make references to your relationship anymore because i don't like being the person who 'attacks' personal relationships, though, of course this is MY opinion and i'm really not trying to tell you what's right and wrong..but the way he does you, is wrong IN MY EYES. and if i get flamed for saying what i've said, so be it, because i KNOW for a fact i am not the only one who thinks this way.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

But yes, absolutely, if you are entrusted with someone's well-being, you damn well better take care of them.

I am on the bandwagon with Never and Etoile here

 

[ownedsubgal]

so, you know that you are being abused, but use excuses like 'He's Master, so it's His perogative' i mean that's kind of akin to a vanilla woman who says 'well yea, He abuses me, but i know he loves me' i'm not trying to offend or piss you off and it's probably going to, so i'll apologize right now for being harsh i've tried hard not to say my thoughts on 'your' relationship but after reading this i really need to give my opinion. it truly sounds like you are an abused woman (you admit that much) who makes excuses for her abuser. most of the time this is due to the fact the abused has no self esteem or self respect. and i'm sorry, but He does not respect you if you He Honestly abuses you. i can't say that different strokes for different folks applies to this. you recognize it as abuse and say it's ok because you have a TPE, again sounds like excuses to me. i don't understand (and i'm sure i'm not the only one) how if a Dom loves you, you are His property, why would He want to 'harm' His property. i know i'm probably pissing you off, and i don't normally speak about anyone's relationship, but your's sends up red flags to me, big time, and i truly hope one day you realize your self worth and that you dont' deserve the abuse, and that's all i'm going to say, i will not make references to your relationship anymore because i don't like being the person who 'attacks' personal relationships, though, of course this is MY opinion and i'm really not trying to tell you what's right and wrong..but the way he does you, is wrong IN MY EYES. and if i get flamed for saying what i've said, so be it, because i KNOW for a fact i am not the only one who thinks this way.

rose, you are entirely entitled to your opinion, and no you are far from the only one who would make such a judgement as you have, however i also know that i am far from the only one who believes in and lives the tenet that an Owner may do as he wills with his slave. and although these things are hardly entitlements, rest assured i am very much loved, respected, cherished and valued by my Master. but i am not a princess or a queen to be pampered (nor would i wish to be), i am a slave. perhaps for you slave means something very different and that is fine, just please try not to disrespect those of us who may not share your ways or beliefs.

 

[Never]

Catalina:
" So what you're saying is there is never an incident in boxing where it goes too far, where there is permanent damage either at the time or years later, and as long as money is involved it is must mean it is safe?"

I know you can read. I can only assume you choose not to in this instance.

 

[Marquis]

I know you can read. I can only assume you choose not to in this instance.

Oooooh, snap!

Is a PYL job to beat the living shit out of a pyl for a crowd of spectators?

Is this a trick question?

I guess it depends on your definition of "job". I mean, being a PYL isn't really a job, is it? More of a hobby or a lifestyle, I guess.

To whatever degree this question can be answered accurately, I'm going to go with "yes".

Is it a boxer's responsibility to make sure that the other boxer knows their limits, that they understand the risks, that they're able to handle the event physically and emotionally, and to make sure that their blows don't go a pre-established line?

No, it would seem like that's homework that their opponent should've done for themselves. What's your point?

When a boxer gets in the ring, they have a huge support network of trainers, coaches, sponsors, doctors, and insurance agents that have spent thousands of dollars preparing them for this moment. They have dozens of people ringside to help them if there's a problem. They have coaches and cameras that make sure no one breaks the rules, and will put a stop to the event if there's a problem.

Funny you should use this example, because I know a girl who is always saying she wants to fight with boys and I'm going to box with her. We'll wear padded gloves and protective headgear, of course (gotta keep it SSC, y'all).

In any case, competitive sport boxing is still a far more dangerous activity than most of what we do in the bedroom. And all the support has a lot more to do with the money involved than the activity itself. Not every boxing match is in Madison Square Garden.

Do pyls have all of that? Last time I checked, one person is doing that entire job. If that one person doesn't do that job well enough then it's abuse. Consensual abuse perhaps but still abuse.

Consensual abuse.

Con-sen-su-al ab-uuuuuuuuuuuuuse.

That's gotta be better than non-consensual abuse, right?

 

[MasterPhoenix]

In Boxing there is a referee who is paid to make sure it comes out how Vegas wants it, errr uhhh... so it stays within the rules...

 

[Etoile]

Consensual abuse.

Con-sen-su-al ab-uuuuuuuuuuuuuse.

That's gotta be better than non-consensual abuse, right?

See, that's what I was saying. (Just riffing off you, Marquis, not directed at you.)

"Consensual abuse." Doesn't that sound like an oxymoron? My definition of abuse is "something done nonconsensually." I can totally understand people who are saying "abuse is when you cause harm to someone." But to me, no particular act is abusive...it's doing something that's unwanted.

To me, most of the forms of "abuse" being described in this thread are more properly defined as misuse. YMMV.

 

[JMohegan]

so, you know that you are being abused, but use excuses like 'He's Master, so it's His perogative' i mean that's kind of akin to a vanilla woman who says 'well yea, He abuses me, but i know he loves me' i'm not trying to offend or piss you off and it's probably going to, so i'll apologize right now for being harsh i've tried hard not to say my thoughts on 'your' relationship but after reading this i really need to give my opinion. it truly sounds like you are an abused woman (you admit that much) who makes excuses for her abuser. most of the time this is due to the fact the abused has no self esteem or self respect. and i'm sorry, but He does not respect you if you He Honestly abuses you. i can't say that different strokes for different folks applies to this. you recognize it as abuse and say it's ok because you have a TPE, again sounds like excuses to me. i don't understand (and i'm sure i'm not the only one) how if a Dom loves you, you are His property, why would He want to 'harm' His property. i know i'm probably pissing you off, and i don't normally speak about anyone's relationship, but your's sends up red flags to me, big time, and i truly hope one day you realize your self worth and that you dont' deserve the abuse, and that's all i'm going to say, i will not make references to your relationship anymore because i don't like being the person who 'attacks' personal relationships, though, of course this is MY opinion and i'm really not trying to tell you what's right and wrong..but the way he does you, is wrong IN MY EYES. and if i get flamed for saying what i've said, so be it, because i KNOW for a fact i am not the only one who thinks this way.

Consensual SM is a spectrum, Rose. You're on one end of that spectrum, and osg is on the other. But it's still the same one.

Any idea what portion of mainstream people would read this post and say: OMG, ROSE! You're being abused! He beat you just because he didn't like your response to a question! You cried real tears and it really hurt and all because you dared to say that your breasts are your own! Run, Rose, run! He's an abusive bastard and a domineering asshat! Where is your sense of self worth? You don't deserve this abuse! He has NO RIGHT to do that to you!


Think about it.

A spectrum of consensual SM. That's what we're talking about here.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Consensual SM is a spectrum, Rose. You're on one end of that spectrum, and osg is on the other. But it's still the same one.

Any idea what portion of mainstream people would read this post and say: OMG, ROSE! You're being abused! He beat you just because he didn't like your response to a question! You cried real tears and it really hurt and all because you dared to say that your breasts are your own! Run, Rose, run! He's an abusive bastard and a domineering asshat! Where is your sense of self worth? You don't deserve this abuse! He has NO RIGHT to do that to you!


Think about it.

A spectrum of consensual SM. That's what we're talking about here.

my problem with OSG's comments is that SHE herself ADMITS she is being abused, but that it's OK because He is Master. and to me that is mindset of an abused person and making excuses for the abuser whether it be 'nilla or D/s. sorry but my opinion that it's not right, stands. if you have to lie to the hospital when you go in because you've been beaten so badly that you need medical care (and we're not talking about extreme play gone wrong) then, IN MY OPINION, there is something wrong there. she has also in other posts said that most people don't even know she exists because he keeps her isolated from the outside world, again, a red flag for me. notice i said FOR ME..this is all my opinion which was brought on based on alot of her posts on different threads not just one post on one thread. and again, i try not to point out personal relationships, but this is just one that i have such a disagreement with that i couldn't stay quiet anymore, and i KNOW for a fact i'm not the only one who believes this way.

 

[catalina_francisco]

my problem with OSG's comments is that SHE herself ADMITS she is being abused, but that it's OK because He is Master. and to me that is mindset of an abused person and making excuses for the abuser whether it be 'nilla or D/s. sorry but my opinion that it's not right, stands. if you have to lie to the hospital when you go in because you've been beaten so badly that you need medical care (and we're not talking about extreme play gone wrong) then, IN MY OPINION, there is something wrong there. she has also in other posts said that most people don't even know she exists because he keeps her isolated from the outside world, again, a red flag for me. notice i said FOR ME..this is all my opinion which was brought on based on alot of her posts on different threads not just one post on one thread. and again, i try not to point out personal relationships, but this is just one that i have such a disagreement with that i couldn't stay quiet anymore, and i KNOW for a fact i'm not the only one who believes this way.

But the difference is she says she consented to it, and doesn't want life any other way. As to lying if you needed medical treatment, I don't think that necessarily means you are abused as laws in the UK, US and Oz all in their individual ways make it impossible to be honest if there has been an accident, unexpected outcome, or you just want to have someone with medical expertise check out your injury for some reason to make sure it is OK. It makes it very difficult and impossible to be honest when you are governed by what your government feels is acceptable behaviour and will not accept you telling them it is with consent...they tend to react as you are to some of the things discussed and declare it is abuse and no matter how much you protest, they feel it is because you know no better and need them to rescue you.

Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

But the difference is she says she consented to it, and doesn't want life any other way. As to lying if you needed medical treatment, I don't think that necessarily means you are abused as laws in the UK, US and Oz all in their individual ways make it impossible to be honest if there has been an accident, unexpected outcome, or you just want to have someone with medical expertise check out your injury for some reason to make sure it is OK. It makes it very difficult and impossible to be honest when you are governed by what your government feels is acceptable behaviour and will not accept you telling them it is with consent...they tend to react as you are to some of the things discussed and declare it is abuse and no matter how much you protest, they feel it is because you know no better and need them to rescue you.

Catalina

*shrugs* no matter what i say everyone on this board is going to tell me i'm wrong in my beliefs, because well it's the PC thing to do after all, by that i mean not saying someone else's relationship is abuse/wrong/whatever. but as i said, my opinion stands and it's not changed. the fact that she is isolated from the world, alone, is a red flag that there is abuse occuring, coupled with the fact that she admits he's abusing her, not just going to far in a scene (because they don't scene) and not talking about extreme play. you said accidents happen, i understand that, but she admits it's not an ACCIDENT..he intentionally harms her, but this is ok in everyone's eyes because He is the Master and she 'consents' to being abused. none of it makes sense to me.anyway, i'm done with this one because this thread is not going where i wanted it to go. i'm not here to 'attack' anyone's personal relationship, i started this thread to get opinions of others on the subject of abuse. i guess as a survivor of abuse, i just don't understand how you can see that you are being abused, yet say that you consent to it, and it's not wrong because He's Master. that just screams at me of the stereotype of this lifestyle that the 'nilla world has. *shrugs* i'm a very opinionated person which is a blessing and a curse all in one, but i also know there are people reading my words and nodding along, even if they will not respond on the subject. just as i'm sure there are those who nod along with the fact that you can 'consent' to being abused. ah well ..i think i've spent enough time on this subject..i do not want to seem disrespectful to anyone, that just isn't me, but sometimes my opinions come off that way....so i'm stepping back now away from the subject of someone's personal relationship....and let's get back to the topic at hand..can abuse happen in the lifestyle......

i do wanna thank everyone for their input as i've learned quite a bit and this thread went a lot further than i thought it would when i first started it

 

[JMohegan]

my problem with OSG's comments is that SHE herself ADMITS she is being abused, but that it's OK because He is Master.

Yes, she does admit it and frankly I find that reassuring. (It's important to keep her definition of abuse in mind here. You'll find it in post 23.)

Personally I consider her honesty, awareness and acceptance to be a *much* healthier sign than denial.

Think about what you would say to mainstream people about the beating Phoenix gave you. Something like: "No, no, please don't worry about me. Yes, it hurt and yes, my rear end was 'harmed' while it happened but he has the right to beat me if he doesn't like my answers to questions because I gave him that right. It's really hard to explain, but the problem is not what he's doing, the problem is just that you don't understand why this works for me."

Isn't that what you would say? And isn't that what osg is saying too?

I understand why the level of violence she describes makes your stomach lurch. But the world of BDSM is not limited to Castlerealm-style D/s. I've seen relationships involving intense violence in real life, with real people, and somehow the one on the bottom does not end up like Geoff's dog as described in post 54. Somehow she thrives instead.

In contrast, I've seen relationships involving very little violence in which the one on the bottom withdraws into herself, becomes incommunicative, fearful, dejected, or just plain blank.

It's not the level of violence, it's the effect on the subject that matters. As for why different people thrive on different levels of violence or the absence thereof, don't ask me to explain that because I truly have no idea.

 

[catalina_francisco]

*shrugs* no matter what i say everyone on this board is going to tell me i'm wrong in my beliefs, because well it's the PC thing to do after all, by that i mean not saying someone else's relationship is abuse/wrong/whatever. but as i said, my opinion stands and it's not changed. the fact that she is isolated from the world, alone, is a red flag that there is abuse occuring, coupled with the fact that she admits he's abusing her, not just going to far in a scene (because they don't scene) and not talking about extreme play. you said accidents happen, i understand that, but she admits it's not an ACCIDENT..he intentionally harms her, but this is ok in everyone's eyes because He is the Master and she 'consents' to being abused. none of it makes sense to me.anyway, i'm done with this one because this thread is not going where i wanted it to go. i'm not here to 'attack' anyone's personal relationship, i started this thread to get opinions of others on the subject of abuse. i guess as a survivor of abuse, i just don't understand how you can see that you are being abused, yet say that you consent to it, and it's not wrong because He's Master. that just screams at me of the stereotype of this lifestyle that the 'nilla world has. *shrugs* i'm a very opinionated person which is a blessing and a curse all in one, but i also know there are people reading my words and nodding along, even if they will not respond on the subject. just as i'm sure there are those who nod along with the fact that you can 'consent' to being abused. ah well ..i think i've spent enough time on this subject..i do not want to seem disrespectful to anyone, that just isn't me, but sometimes my opinions come off that way....so i'm stepping back now away from the subject of someone's personal relationship....and let's get back to the topic at hand..can abuse happen in the lifestyle......

i do wanna thank everyone for their input as i've learned quite a bit and this thread went a lot further than i thought it would when i first started it

No-one is telling you that you are wrong, just trying to get you to see the other views....and it has nothing to do with PC, it has to do with lifestyle choices. I am also an opinionated bitch as I'm sure many around here will tell you, but once again, that has nothing to do with it. We don't scene either as a rule, most what we do is spur of the moment as we both hate planning anything, even the mundane necessities of life. As to isololation being a red flag...it can be where non consensual abuse is happening, but it can also mean it is not. Take me for instance...he suggests I should get out more, I should socialise more (like he can talk ), and I beg him to leave me be as I really don't want to and never have in all my life, so why start now?

I have been abused and I have worked with abuse survivors and I can assure you I do not consider myself as being abused. The difference lies in that it is behaviour and mindset I have willingly consented to, and also looked for, and also it is what I have wanted to live for a very long time. I would look right stupid if after going on a very specific search for a life partner who would share this type relationship with me, I now said I was being abused...especially as I am not. When you speak of stereotyping that vanillas see us as, you are right, because they are operating from what they see as love, what makes them happy, what they believe should happen in a relationship, not what happens in an SM relationship because it is wanted and desired. Most people in the mainstream who do not share SM desires, or even D/s desires and needs, are never going to understand how SM is OK and not abusive because it doesn't fit their stereotypical image of love as being always nice and giving, considerate of your partner and above all else, acceptable. We don't chose that stereotype, otherwise we would be still in the vanilla pool.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/382685004_3ab0fcf2a9_t.jpg Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Yes, she does admit it and frankly I find that reassuring. (It's important to keep her definition of abuse in mind here. You'll find it in post 23.)

Personally I consider her honesty, awareness and acceptance to be a *much* healthier sign than denial.

Think about what you would say to mainstream people about the beating Phoenix gave you. Something like: "No, no, please don't worry about me. Yes, it hurt and yes, my rear end was 'harmed' while it happened but he has the right to beat me if he doesn't like my answers to questions because I gave him that right. It's really hard to explain, but the problem is not what he's doing, the problem is just that you don't understand why this works for me."

Isn't that what you would say? And isn't that what osg is saying too?

I understand why the level of violence she describes makes your stomach lurch. But the world of BDSM is not limited to Castlerealm-style D/s. I've seen relationships involving intense violence in real life, with real people, and somehow the one on the bottom does not end up like Geoff's dog as described in post 54. Somehow she thrives instead.

In contrast, I've seen relationships involving very little violence in which the one on the bottom withdraws into herself, becomes incommunicative, fearful, dejected, or just plain blank.

It's not the level of violence, it's the effect on the subject that matters. As for why different people thrive on different levels of violence or the absence thereof, don't ask me to explain that because I truly have no idea.

i understand your point. but as i said, i'm not going to discuss someone else's relationship anymore, because apparently i'm coming off as the asshat in the situation and that's not what i intended. or maybe i'm just tired and like usual it was not a good time for me to post, so i will apologize and step back from the thread until i've had some sleep.

 

[catalina_francisco]

i understand your point. but as i said, i'm not going to discuss someone else's relationship anymore, because apparently i'm coming off as the asshat in the situation and that's not what i intended. or maybe i'm just tired and like usual it was not a good time for me to post, so i will apologize and step back from the thread until i've had some sleep.

As I have said before rose, I am sure after you both live under the same roof for awhile, you will begin to see what some of us are saying. You may not choose to go to the extremes some do, but I doubt all you find unacceptable now will remain so forever, and not because MP forces you in any way but because you make a choice once you see how your desires and feelings grow.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/382622317_6b70a5a419_t.jpg Catalina