Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

[Kailey_86]

maybe my idea of abuse is different than others, but i'm shocked at how many people say it's ok for their Dom to 'abuse' them because they have a TPE. i was abused for 10 years in a 'nilla relationship and i'm talking being punched in the face, things thrown at my head, one night beaten so bad that i could not see straight, all out of anger. is it really ok for your Dom to do these things simply because "He's Master"? lashing out in anger and becoming down right violent and beating you so badly you cannot see straight is ok? simply because "He's Master"? i guess i just don't understand that this concept at all....obviously i understand that different things work for different people and what works for me may not work for you, but wow, abuse is abuse is abuse....i would think...

a few also said that in their relationship there would be no such thing as abuse, is this true for almost everyone? do we as pyl's have the right to stand up for ourselves when we feel we've been 'abused'? or should we sit back and take it because they know what's best for us, and after all we did give up 'power' to them. i'm just curious about other peoples ideas on this and i'm not trying to start a fight, just a discussion, honest, i just want to see what everyone has to say on this issue......

i'm so sorry you had to go through that. That's terrible!

Abuse can definately be present in this type of relationship and it's not ok. IMO, Doms should never strike in anger....ever. There is a difference between anger and disappointment. i also think that it is very obvious when you start getting abused. If the sub feels that she is being abused, she should get out fast.

i can understand how some subs could get tied up with the TPE thing though. i can see how submissive feelings might cloud a subs better judgement. Hopefully the sub would figure it out quickly enough to save herself too much damage.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Yes, but it is about TPE situations which IMO don't have limits assigned by the pyl...that is part of what you give up. I think the chopping off an arm is another case of dragging out the extremes, though there may be other comparable incidents, but even so, using a legal defense as reason why it isn't acceptable doesn't work for me as much of what we do, with consent, does not have legal support if taken inside a courtroom or brought to the attention of police. I was in a situation once where he said he was going to cut a nipple off, after mentioning several times in past weeks how fascinated he was with the idea, bringing it up a few times throughout that day, and actually taking the steps right up to the moment of cutting which gave every indication he was going to do it...did I sit there like a robot? Nope, I'm not that good so I was a little stressed, but I did accept he was going to do it and waited...thankfully he didn't and was only playing with my head.

I also think though it is a popular concept that permanent harm should not happen and if it does it is abuse, that it is not acknowledging that the unexpected can and does happen, and therefore may not be a good playground for anyone unwilling to accept that is a possibility. For instance, when trying something new, maybe cutting for example, there are risks involved which for some people, no amount of preparation and careful planning and adhering to all the safety rules pertaining to that activity will prevent permanent damage ranging from mild to severe. Cutting will usually leave a permanent mark...that to me does not make it abuse, I expect a mark..so out goes the theory permanent marks or injury are abusive.....cutting can also for some, unexpectedly result in infections which can be mild or severe.

These things cannot always be predicted, but I don't believe it is fair after the fact to label it abusive. I think responsibility should be taken by those who enter the lifestyle and want to enjoy all it can offer, not just look to the Dominant to control that risk and take responsibility for anything that may be unexpected. I also think if someone gives consent to permanent marking or something which may result in a permanent injury, it is not up to others to label it abusive because they are not personally into the same thing.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

ok cat, you are not understanding my point. i'm not talking about accidents, they happen. and you touched on one very good thing that got my point across, responsibility for ones actions. if permanent markings are consented to, it's not abuse, it is again extreme play, you are still describing extreme play and not what i see as abuse which as i said in a previous post there is a huge difference, i'm talking about those "Dom's" who are actual abusers and who hide in our lifestyle because they can then instead of taking responsibility for their actions, they can say 'she wanted it' 'she consented' i guess alot of it goes back to what is your definition of abuse. Master is a Sadist, but He would never abuse the power He has over me and then say 'well i'm Master, so it wasn't abuse'. in the example i used before where he slaps me, hard across the face during a scene, but if we He were to smack across the face in the heat of an argument or just 'because' it would not be the same in my eyes, it would then be abuse....our 'consent' can be taken too far, and that's what i'm talking about. i realize this is a thin line and the line is as bit blurry, but i do honestly believe there is a difference between Dominance and Domineering/abusive and that's what i'm talking about. you keep saying 'thats taking it to the extreme' well the extremes (cutting off an arm, maybe not that extreme but i hope i'm getting my point across.) are what i'm talking about. i'm not talking about being kinky or being a sadist or a masochist, i'm talking about crossing boundries, lines of consent, the PYL Abusing His power.....and then saying 'well i'm the Master so it's ok'

 

[lil_slave_rose]

When I talk to groups about intimate partner violence (IPV - still called domestic violence in most settings) and BDSM questions come up I refer to this sort of list. It can be a hard question to consider, but as far as I am concerned it is the sub/bottom that is the one that knows when the line is crossed. I understand that some of the items listed here may not be agreed to by all here. It is more about the total frame of mind then each and every line.

The key difference between S&M and Abuse, is "consent".
* Consent = Is an agreed approval of what is done and/or proposed by another.
* Abuse = to use so as to injure or damage.

S&M
* Is based on the safe, sane, consensual theory
* S&M is a controlled environment
* S&M has safe words to stop the scene
* In a S&M scene the dominant looks out for the well being of the submissive
* S&M can be an erotic sexual encounter
* In S&M both partners are enjoying themselves
* in S&M the dominant respects limits
* In S&M there is mutual respect
* In S&M the relationship is fulfilling
* In S&M both parties feel they contribute towards the relationships
* In S&M one can ask their partner to "play"
* In S&M relationship there is trust
* In S&M a submissive voluntarily serves the dominant
* S&M is about building trust
* S&M builds self esteem
* S&M builds the spirit of a submissive


Abuse
* Abuse is not negotiated
* Abuse is an out of control environment
* Abuse does not have safe words
* An abuser does not give a damn about the victim
* Abuse is always one sided
* Abuse is never negotiated.
* In abuse, no one is enjoying the results
* The abuser is into non consensual violence
* The victim has no respect towards the abuser
* In abuse the victim is harmed
* In abuse both parties are left unfulfilled
* The abuser always feel they are superior
* A person does not ask for abuse
* In an abusive relationship there is no trust
* The abuser does not care for consent
* Abuse has no trust
* Abuse destroys self esteem
* An abuser destroys the spirit of the victim



.

very well put shankie, thank you!

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Sorry, I took it the other way....and yes, it is true, consent has been given and doesn't need to be given ever again. Here, have a cookie with me....

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/378277993_fecc21bd9a_t.jpg Catalina

cat i'd also like to say that i think you are seeing my question as somehow questioning your relationship, i'm not. it was seriously just a question i was curious about. i do understand that you have a TPE that is different than most. i get that, i was just more wanting views on abuse in the lifestyle, not our PYL's as i dont' think any of them are guilty of abuse. maybe that is why we are not seeing exactly eye to eye, it was not meant to be taken personal by anyone, or make examples of anyone's relationships, i've met many men 'online' who are abusers but hide behind the title 'Master' those are more the ones i'm talking about...the ones where a submissive gives consent and then it's too late they end up hurt, injured whatever, but they say it's ok because he's the master and it's what he wanted...am i making sense?

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I have come to realize abuse is in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes I read things here and I think it is abusive. But as Catalina has pointed out numerous times, she gave Francisco complete control and therefore abuse really can't exist. (not picking on you Cat, I am simply using you as an example since you are engaged in this discussion) I can't apply my life experiences and preferences to her relationship and try to make it fit my terms, no more than she can do the same to mine. Catalina is obviously very happy and head over heels in love..so even though it is hard for me to understand, I have to agree her relationship is not abusive.

I hesitiate to throw this wrench in the conversation but it is something I have been thinking about since this topic came up. We all know people in abusive relationships can end up being sympathetic with the abuser and even becoming an enabler. At what point does abuse end and consent begin? I am not suggesting this has happened with Cat or anyone else here, so please don't jump on me for asking! lol It's just something I have been mulling over.

THAT last part is exactly what i'm asking! maybe im not getting my words out right but the the whole 'she's says it's ok because He is Master" is what i was trying to get across....i'll come back to this when my mind is not scrambled and i'm not in a hurry

 

[lil_slave_rose]

When I think of abuse, I think of it in terms of anger and of the results to the spirit or soul of the abused. I was in an abusive marriage, not physical abuse but verbal and emotional abuse. I got to the point where I was defending him to my family and friends, and my spirit was completely broken. I believed at one point that it was my fault, I deserved it, this was all I deserved, etc. I think that, for me, is the biggest difference beyond consent, with abuse. I know from experience that victims can 'consent' to abuse through conditioning, so consent at that level doesn't excuse the abuse. From the abuser's position, I see the actions as coming from anger, insecurity, weakness. The real difference for me between abuse and what has been discussed about TPE and the actions within that type of relationship is that yes, the consent is there from the beginning and that the Dom is not acting out of weakness or insecurity, although he may sometimes act out of anger. We all do that, we're all human. The abuser doesn't respect the victim, he uses the victim to make himself bigger and better, to get out those insecurities and weaknesses - just like someone who comes home and kicks the dog everyday because his boss treated him badly. The victim comes to fear the abuser, not respect him. I don't want to submit to my Dominant out of fear, but out of trust and respect and yes, even love.

Sin asked Rose in another thread what her definition of a doormat is in terms of D/s. I'm not Rose and this isn't that thread, but I know what I believe 'doormat' means in the context being discussed. To me a doormat is someone who has no thoughts or feelings of his/her own. It is the kind of person who consents to anything because she doesn't necessarily believe she is worth anything. I don't see the doormat sub/slave as someone who submits out of strength and trust and respect, but someone who submits out of insecurity and weakness and maybe even fear. I don't know if that is what Rose was getting at or not, but it is my definition of 'doormat' in this context.

I'm not sure I said that all very well. Abuse is a topic that is a difficult one for me because of my personal experience with it. I healed from it by helping others in similar situations. But I know it's a touchy issue here, for good reason, and that everyone sees abuse a bit differently. For me, it's very simple. If what is occuring breaks me down rather than boosts me up, disrespects me rather than respect me, then it's abuse. Plain and simple.

you got every single one of my points across. everything you said in this post is exactly what i was trying to say, even the definition of a doormat....

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Then again, as an abuse counsellor with abused women and children, what I have learned more than anything is that abuse is not a result of anger, mental illness, drugs/drink, but they are excuses used by those who abuse. Why can I say they are not the reason? Because simply put, most DV abusers may get angry often and with many people, but it is the very rare one who takes the next step to physical violence otherwise they would already be in prison for assault against their boss, friends, the local shopkeeper etc., which in a way would be great because they would not be at home dishing it out to their partner....reality is, they control it in situations with other people who in the eyes of the law have more power to have them held accountable by law....unfortunately, it is still a fact that most abused women do not win their cases in court (if they even get it as far as court) and either continue to be abused or end up a statistic as a murder victim. So no, I do not see abuse is caused by anger and loss of control...abuse is a choice which is made consciously and with care so to minimise risk to the abuser.

Catalina

i'm confused. i've been abused for 10 long years i was abused, and it was out of anger and he did lose control. he would lose control with his mom, his boss, whoever was around, he wouldn't necesarrily hit them the he did me, but he did verbally abuse them. when he was drunk it was 500 times worse. to me, yes he did make a choice, but alot of times it was clouded by alcohol or anger. i don't understand how you can say anger isn't a part of it. he had so much rage inside of him it was unreal. he was/is a bully, plain and simple...

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I've read this carefully and I would like to chime in, if no one minds.

Total Power Exchange is an agreement between two people in the lifestyle commonly referred to as BDSM, whose founding principle is the Safe, Sane and Consensual. For my own edification, I would like to break that down, in an attempt to answer - at least for Me - the main question posed.

To have Total Power Exchange, One exchanges something with another: The “One” being the Dominant, the other being the submissive. What is being exchanged? In My opinion it is truly power; but what power? The submissive freely gives up her power to control the self. That is clearly understood, I think, by all in this discussion. But what is it exchanged for? That is where I tend to disagree with those who imply (or at least I infer from what I read) the kind of abuse you suffered was not abuse within the TPE agreement you made; pre or post abuse. The Dominant’s part of the exchange is the foundation of BDSM; the insurance that life for the submissive will be Safe and Sane (the consensual part is built into the TPE agreement).

If the Dominant is true to the values of “true” Dominants then the health and growth of mind and body of the submissive become paramount for the Dom. If, as you say, people are beaten not for the erotic pleasure of B/both, and such beating is harmful to the submissive (not just painful, because pain and non malignant bruises are common and welcomed by most practitioners of BDSM) then it is abuse; whether in the confines of BDSM, SM, or TPE agreements.

If the exchange, in TPE is not a true exchange then it is not TPE and therefore abuse, to Me is very possible.

Thanks for initiating this topic, it is a very good thought provoking one.

MnM

thank You for answering and i agree with everything You said, and You hit on my points alot better also. i was afraid no one was understanding what i was trying to say.

 

[catalina_francisco]

cat i'd also like to say that i think you are seeing my question as somehow questioning your relationship, i'm not. it was seriously just a question i was curious about. i do understand that you have a TPE that is different than most. i get that, i was just more wanting views on abuse in the lifestyle, not our PYL's as i dont' think any of them are guilty of abuse. maybe that is why we are not seeing exactly eye to eye, it was not meant to be taken personal by anyone, or make examples of anyone's relationships, i've met many men 'online' who are abusers but hide behind the title 'Master' those are more the ones i'm talking about...the ones where a submissive gives consent and then it's too late they end up hurt, injured whatever, but they say it's ok because he's the master and it's what he wanted...am i making sense?

I didn't realise it was personal....I have just been discussing my experience, understanding and relationship in terms of TPE as was being discussed. Your initial post began with "maybe my idea of abuse is different than others, but i'm shocked at how many people say it's ok for their Dom to 'abuse' them because they have a TPE" which is discussing TPE and abuse as within the same relationship, not random abusers who might engage in BDSM at some level. If you are talking about the people who hide behind BDSM as a cover for the opportunity to abuse, that is a whole different discussion to TPE IMHO. For one thing I would hope someone got to know the other well enough (which for me means actually living together and giving the relationship time to reach that stage, not online only) to recognise they were a fake before entering into a TPE relationship...if they don't, not only are they an idiot, but share at least 50% of the responsibility for whatever happens to them. I have met fakes in my time, but in all cases I picked it long before meeting and only met to verify my instincts were correct...it isn't usually difficult to pick unless you talk for a very short time (as in an hour or so online), then meet.

Every person has different needs, different lines to cross, and different ideas on what abuse is, but I still maintain for the most part, if it is a TPE relationship abuse is not likely to be an issue for those involved unless they were uncertain of what they were getting into, or thought of it as OK until it hits a point they don't like and then it is OK to revoke consent or claim abuse. For example, your speaking of being slapped across the face in play being OK, but in anger it is abuse. For us, when we were first 24/7, living together and up to about 18 months-2 years ago, he didn't consider face slapping was something he wanted to include in our play or in any form at all, and was disgusted I even considered it an option as far as I was concerned....that has changed....so things move forward, limits for the PYL change, and what was once unacceptable becomes acceptable and perhaps even commonplace.

In our relationship F is fairly good at controlling himself when he is angry, but if he were to react out of anger I would not see it as abuse as it is within the terms of our relationship just as his changing limits and the terms of our relationship are. Consent was given, I no longer am in a position to decide to revoke that now, nor do I want to, nor do I feel I have to agree now or am in a position I don't want to be or have been brainwashed. Basically he wants me around for a very long time so he is not about to do something knowingly which would seriously harm me, but I also know that if most here knew what he has done on occasion they would not understand how I could say that...it is all about individual tastes and deciding what works best for those in the relationship.

Why I can say I do not see anything he would do in anger as abuse is because we are in a TPE relationship and I am owned by him....just as he doesn't have to ask anyone what he can do with his car, but may have to live with the consequences of not having it for awhile if he does something stupid like crashing it into the first tree he sees, so he doesn't have to ask if he can do whatever he wishes with me, though if he goes too far he may have to live without me for awhile (hopefully not longer) if there is injury I need to recover from. As I said earlier, and this is not meant to be personal or say I am better than anyone else, it is not easy to explain to someone who does not have this mindset or at least reached a level where they are considering it because it is not something you can articulate and convey real understanding to someone who through no fault of their own cannot. It does require a major mindshift to live it, and even then there are moments when you need to reflect on what it is to keep going, but in no way means you wish it otherwise. If it were easy, if it were submission with submissive limits and rights to revoke consent, and if it were a matter of abc is OK when calm, but not OK if in anyway upset, it would not be TPE in my world. There is no time when I am no longer subject to his control, no time when we step outside of TPE to conduct a discussion, disagreement, or manage some other life event...it is 24/7.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

i'm confused. i've been abused for 10 long years i was abused, and it was out of anger and he did lose control. he would lose control with his mom, his boss, whoever was around, he wouldn't necesarrily hit them the he did me, but he did verbally abuse them. when he was drunk it was 500 times worse. to me, yes he did make a choice, but alot of times it was clouded by alcohol or anger. i don't understand how you can say anger isn't a part of it. he had so much rage inside of him it was unreal. he was/is a bully, plain and simple...

That is what you are not getting then and if you went to counselling it should have been one of the first things highlighted to you....if he hit you and said it was because he was angry, and yet got angry with his mother, his boss etc., and didn't hit them and at most only yelled at them, he clearly was able to control when he chose to hit and when he didn't as do all abusers. If they didn't have control, they would do it to everyone because they couldn't control it...they choose not to because they know they will not get away with it where others are concerned, especially if they bring in the law. While they claim it is because they are angry, it removes the responsibility from them, it makes them feel justified, it places blame and responsibilit for it on you for making them angry, and then further ensures your undermined confidence and doubts in your part in the whole thing will help them get you to remain silent.

I strongly object to the huge amounts of money poured into funding anger management programmes for abusers as research has shown that the anger does not fuel the abuse, it just is a convenient excuse, and those who go through the programmes, not only rarely learn to manage their anger and stop the abuse, they learn ways to disguise it more cleverly, and play with the heads of their victims more effectively. I would prefer money be spent on actually finding what it is which makes them choose to abuse over any other option available to them....then perhaps we could see the figures dropping instead of escalating and save the lives of a lot more women and children. Anger management makes governments and organisations look like they are doing something, gets them funding, but if they are really doing something why is domestic abuse still increasing?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/378277993_fecc21bd9a_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Etoile]

Here's my thoughts. First let me say that I am using "perpetrator" to mean both the PYL and the ex-husband archetypes, and "victim" to mean both the pyl and the ex-wife archetypes. The words refer to who does what to whom, not what the person is.

There is no physical definition of what constitutes abuse. You cannot say that slamming someone's head against the wall is abusive, or breaking someone's arms. The physical act is not abusive. Whether or not something becomes abuse depends on the mental state of both the perpetrator and the victim.

If the victim of such an act has given informed consent to it, then it is not abuse. If it is done without informed consent, then it is abuse. In fact, whether it is punishment or not is also irrelevant. The ex-husband might view it as punishment for some imagined wrong, the PYL might view it as punishment for something that both acknowledge was done wrong. Punishment does not define abuse.

I guess my point is that no physical act can unequivocally be termed abuse. rose, I think this is why you having trouble understanding. You referred to slamming someone's head into the wall so hard they can't see straight. But that is not what constitutes abuse. What constitutes abuse is that your ex-husband did not have permission to do so. He was causing you physical harm without your consent, and that is abuse.

I assume that most DV workers would say that no matter what, slamming a head into the wall is abuse, even if it has been consented to. But that's why informed consent is essential. If the situation is that of an unhappy slave who cannot escape, then it is likely that consent has been withdrawn inside the slave's own mind, and so it is still abuse. But as long as the victim can stand up and say "yes, I allowed him to do this to me, it was not abusive" then it is not abuse.

So what about the "I know he beats me, but I love him!" excuse? In my mind, that is consenting to being abused and not the same thing. Likewise, "I didn't clean the dishes so I deserve to have my head slammed into the wall" is abusive because she is still not consenting...she is assenting. The difference is that consent gives permission - assent makes an excuse for something that has not been consented to.

I am rambling all over the place here, so I am going to quit and see what others think. Feel free to point out inconsistencies; I suspect they are in there. Likewise, there are many things I have not thought of. One final note - all genders are interchangable here, I'm just using them the way I have because it is statistically more likely for a male to abuse a female than t he other way around.

 

[Quint]

..............

 

[serijules]

I think the line for defining abuse lies within a relationship and the people in it. In other words, I don't think there is any across the board way to define abuse any more than there is any across the board way to define TPE. It is defined by the people living it, and if it comes to a point where that agreement differs, the relationship is probably not something anyone involved is going to care to preserve anyhow.

For ME...abuse equals harm. Not hurt. Harm.

If Dawnie slapped me across the face until I was shuddering on the floor, cowering in fear of more slaps and bruises on my face...I would not consider that abuse because although I may be physically hurt by that scene and likely a bit shook up mentally, I wouldn't be harmed because my flesh would heal, my heart trusts her reasons for choosing to do that action, and my mind accepts that while I may not enjoy or like the scene, it is not harming me to the point of abuse. The freak in me would find something very powerful in that exchange.

If she went further than that and started kicking my head in to the point where I was in serious danger of permanent injury or death....that is harm. I am not going to recover from that and still be functional. My heart and mind knows there is no fathomable reason for her to be treating me like that and regardless of consent, regardless of submission or ownership or whathaveyou, it is harmful to me; she no longer is respecting my value, and it is ridiculous to worry about consent/submission at this point. The only important thing right then and there would be to get out of harms way.

For some people, my first example would be well into the realm of abuse. For others, it's perfectly acceptable. So for *ME*, the line where consent falls away and abuse presents is drawn when real, actual, permanent harm is being done, be it physical or mental.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I didn't realise it was personal....I have just been discussing my experience, understanding and relationship in terms of TPE as was being discussed. Your initial post began with "maybe my idea of abuse is different than others, but i'm shocked at how many people say it's ok for their Dom to 'abuse' them because they have a TPE" which is discussing TPE and abuse as within the same relationship, not random abusers who might engage in BDSM at some level. If you are talking about the people who hide behind BDSM as a cover for the opportunity to abuse, that is a whole different discussion to TPE IMHO. For one thing I would hope someone got to know the other well enough (which for me means actually living together and giving the relationship time to reach that stage, not online only) to recognise they were a fake before entering into a TPE relationship...if they don't, not only are they an idiot, but share at least 50% of the responsibility for whatever happens to them. I have met fakes in my time, but in all cases I picked it long before meeting and only met to verify my instincts were correct...it isn't usually difficult to pick unless you talk for a very short time (as in an hour or so online), then meet.

Every person has different needs, different lines to cross, and different ideas on what abuse is, but I still maintain for the most part, if it is a TPE relationship abuse is not likely to be an issue for those involved unless they were uncertain of what they were getting into, or thought of it as OK until it hits a point they don't like and then it is OK to revoke consent or claim abuse. For example, your speaking of being slapped across the face in play being OK, but in anger it is abuse. For us, when we were first 24/7, living together and up to about 18 months-2 years ago, he didn't consider face slapping was something he wanted to include in our play or in any form at all, and was disgusted I even considered it an option as far as I was concerned....that has changed....so things move forward, limits for the PYL change, and what was once unacceptable becomes acceptable and perhaps even commonplace.

In our relationship F is fairly good at controlling himself when he is angry, but if he were to react out of anger I would not see it as abuse as it is within the terms of our relationship just as his changing limits and the terms of our relationship are. Consent was given, I no longer am in a position to decide to revoke that now, nor do I want to, nor do I feel I have to agree now or am in a position I don't want to be or have been brainwashed. Basically he wants me around for a very long time so he is not about to do something knowingly which would seriously harm me, but I also know that if most here knew what he has done on occasion they would not understand how I could say that...it is all about individual tastes and deciding what works best for those in the relationship.

Why I can say I do not see anything he would do in anger as abuse is because we are in a TPE relationship and I am owned by him....just as he doesn't have to ask anyone what he can do with his car, but may have to live with the consequences of not having it for awhile if he does something stupid like crashing it into the first tree he sees, so he doesn't have to ask if he can do whatever he wishes with me, though if he goes too far he may have to live without me for awhile (hopefully not longer) if there is injury I need to recover from. As I said earlier, and this is not meant to be personal or say I am better than anyone else, it is not easy to explain to someone who does not have this mindset or at least reached a level where they are considering it because it is not something you can articulate and convey real understanding to someone who through no fault of their own cannot. It does require a major mindshift to live it, and even then there are moments when you need to reflect on what it is to keep going, but in no way means you wish it otherwise. If it were easy, if it were submission with submissive limits and rights to revoke consent, and if it were a matter of abc is OK when calm, but not OK if in anyway upset, it would not be TPE in my world. There is no time when I am no longer subject to his control, no time when we step outside of TPE to conduct a discussion, disagreement, or manage some other life event...it is 24/7.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

hi again cat *smiles* i was not suggesting that you are taking it personal in which mean that i was attacking you. what i meant by that is , you continue to explain your relationship, and honestly i get it. i don't understand it 100% and i couldn't live it, not right now atleast because as you said, things change , limits change, people change. but if you feel and trust that he would never do anything intentially to harm you, then it's not abuse and your relationship is not the one i'm speaking of. that's what i meant about it not being personal. i'm having a hard time explaining the kind of thinking i'm at right now, my mind is scrambled and maybe i should come back and discuss it when i can relay what i mean more clearly. i'm not just talking about those asshats who are fake, i am talking about the ones in actual D/s relationships as well who think they are high and mighty and can do as they please and abuse their submissives 'because they are 'Master'

i do understand what you are saying about you and F's relationship and why it's a TPE, yea you are into alot more of the extremes than me and i would never think you are saying you are a better slave/submissive than anyone here. we are all different. the main thing here is, there is TRUST in your relationship, respect, etc...in an abusive relationship there is not. maybe i phrased my first part of my first post wrong i wasn't talking about only in TPE but it is the one conversation on another thread that got me thinking about this question and wondering how others felt. thank you for the continued discussion i'm enjoying it *hands cat a cookie and goes to put the coffee on to continue the discussion* *grins*

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Here's my thoughts. First let me say that I am using "perpetrator" to mean both the PYL and the ex-husband archetypes, and "victim" to mean both the pyl and the ex-wife archetypes. The words refer to who does what to whom, not what the person is.

There is no physical definition of what constitutes abuse. You cannot say that slamming someone's head against the wall is abusive, or breaking someone's arms. The physical act is not abusive. Whether or not something becomes abuse depends on the mental state of both the perpetrator and the victim.

If the victim of such an act has given informed consent to it, then it is not abuse. If it is done without informed consent, then it is abuse. In fact, whether it is punishment or not is also irrelevant. The ex-husband might view it as punishment for some imagined wrong, the PYL might view it as punishment for something that both acknowledge was done wrong. Punishment does not define abuse.

I guess my point is that no physical act can unequivocally be termed abuse. rose, I think this is why you having trouble understanding. You referred to slamming someone's head into the wall so hard they can't see straight. But that is not what constitutes abuse. What constitutes abuse is that your ex-husband did not have permission to do so. He was causing you physical harm without your consent, and that is abuse.

I assume that most DV workers would say that no matter what, slamming a head into the wall is abuse, even if it has been consented to. But that's why informed consent is essential. If the situation is that of an unhappy slave who cannot escape, then it is likely that consent has been withdrawn inside the slave's own mind, and so it is still abuse. But as long as the victim can stand up and say "yes, I allowed him to do this to me, it was not abusive" then it is not abuse.

So what about the "I know he beats me, but I love him!" excuse? In my mind, that is consenting to being abused and not the same thing. Likewise, "I didn't clean the dishes so I deserve to have my head slammed into the wall" is abusive because she is still not consenting...she is assenting. The difference is that consent gives permission - assent makes an excuse for something that has not been consented to.

I am rambling all over the place here, so I am going to quit and see what others think. Feel free to point out inconsistencies; I suspect they are in there. Likewise, there are many things I have not thought of. One final note - all genders are interchangable here, I'm just using them the way I have because it is statistically more likely for a male to abuse a female than t he other way around.

i understand and agree with most of what you posted except a couple of things. the 'i know he abuses me, but i love him' is not giving him consent to abuse. i used that very same excuse many times, and i did love Him, i loved him very much. i was with that man from the time i was 13 until i was 23. to say i was consenting to being abused by staying is wrong. i consented to NO such thing. i was terrified to leave, we had 2 kids together i didn't want to rip them away from their father. though what i didn't realize at the time was that i had done more damage to them by staying. he daily told me how ugly i was, how fat, how no one but him would ever want me or want to put up with me. how i could never find anyone who would care for me. not to mention that i could never get a job because i was worthless and no one would hire me because i'm good at nothing. daily i was dragged down, my core was ripped apart until i started believing everything he said about me was true, and when someone would say 'why don't you just leave' i would say.well maybe if i could do xyz better, he wouldn't get so angry. of course that was nto true..but it still was not me consenting to being abused. i truly believed i could change him, and towards the end i truly believed the things he said about me were true and i was terrified of him terrified if i left that he would kill me. anyway...that's only part i didn't agree with from your post.....loving him and staying in that relationship does not = consenting to be abused.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I think the line for defining abuse lies within a relationship and the people in it. In other words, I don't think there is any across the board way to define abuse any more than there is any across the board way to define TPE. It is defined by the people living it, and if it comes to a point where that agreement differs, the relationship is probably not something anyone involved is going to care to preserve anyhow.

For ME...abuse equals harm. Not hurt. Harm.

If Dawnie slapped me across the face until I was shuddering on the floor, cowering in fear of more slaps and bruises on my face...I would not consider that abuse because although I may be physically hurt by that scene and likely a bit shook up mentally, I wouldn't be harmed because my flesh would heal, my heart trusts her reasons for choosing to do that action, and my mind accepts that while I may not enjoy or like the scene, it is not harming me to the point of abuse. The freak in me would find something very powerful in that exchange.

If she went further than that and started kicking my head in to the point where I was in serious danger of permanent injury or death....that is harm. I am not going to recover from that and still be functional. My heart and mind knows there is no fathomable reason for her to be treating me like that and regardless of consent, regardless of submission or ownership or whathaveyou, it is harmful to me; she no longer is respecting my value, and it is ridiculous to worry about consent/submission at this point. The only important thing right then and there would be to get out of harms way.

For some people, my first example would be well into the realm of abuse. For others, it's perfectly acceptable. So for *ME*, the line where consent falls away and abuse presents is drawn when real, actual, permanent harm is being done, be it physical or mental.

i agree completely, couldn't have said it better myself *smiles*

 

[marieR19]

(As most of my comments about my views of bdsm, this is based on my own thoughts/feelings, not on experience)

In a very simple response to the original question, there can be potential for abuse in every relationship, whether bdsm related or not. But, as others have said, the definition of abuse varies greatly when it comes to D/s relationships, and it's pretty much unique to each person/couple, as far as I know.

To me, if (IF) I was in a TPE relationship, pretty much anything would go, from kicking and hitting to beating and worse. Of course whether it's in a scene or out of anger would make a difference, but even if it was a beating that left me unconcious because my Mistress was angry, in my mind it would be consentual and not abuse, because I agreed to it when I entered the relationship. If, after that beating, I realized that I was completely wrong to enter into the relationship in such extreme terms, then I would attempt to communicate my feelings with my Mistress and maybe, hopefully, renegotiate certain things. But I would never enter into a relationship that serious without a lot of detailed negotiations and talks and stuff, so if I did, I would be chosing to let her do that.


Heather

 

[lil_slave_rose]

(As most of my comments about my views of bdsm, this is based on my own thoughts/feelings, not on experience)

In a very simple response to the original question, there can be potential for abuse in every relationship, whether bdsm related or not. But, as others have said, the definition of abuse varies greatly when it comes to D/s relationships, and it's pretty much unique to each person/couple, as far as I know.

To me, if (IF) I was in a TPE relationship, pretty much anything would go, from kicking and hitting to beating and worse. Of course whether it's in a scene or out of anger would make a difference, but even if it was a beating that left me unconcious because my Mistress was angry, in my mind it would be consentual and not abuse, because I agreed to it when I entered the relationship. If, after that beating, I realized that I was completely wrong to enter into the relationship in such extreme terms, then I would attempt to communicate my feelings with my Mistress and maybe, hopefully, renegotiate certain things. But I would never enter into a relationship that serious without a lot of detailed negotiations and talks and stuff, so if I did, I would be chosing to let her do that.


Heather

again, i'm not just talking about in TPE relationships, i'm talking in the lifestyle in general. the TPE was just a conversation in another thread that brought up the subject. my intent was not to start an argument or to say 'this is right, and this is wrong' or 'this is abuse, and this is not' it's not black and white, it's a very THIN line and that line is blurry at best. for me, even in a TPE relationship (the way *i* see TPE) if He crosses the line of caring about harming me, then he has gone to far and i have the right to withdraw the power i gave Him. i dont' believe that once you enter into a TPE that there is no 'out' as you are still a human and you still have rights and you still have your own mind. 'for me' there is always an out jsut because i am His slave and i gave Him complete power over me, i'm giving Him that TRUSTING that He will not abuse me or the power that he has over me. if He comes home from the bar and i question where He's been because i was worried sick about Him (and i'm not talking about yelling and screaming at Him i'm talking being geniounly concerned and wondering where He'd been) and He then throws me to the ground and starts to beat the hell out of me, kicking me in the ribs, in the head, punching me, etc...well He has crossed the line and my consent will be then withdrawn and more than likely trust completely lost and the relationship would then be OVER..period. no questions asked, no talking about it at that point as he did not respect me, and Showed he had no respect for my feelings. Hurting me in a scene is another story all together, hurting me during a punishment is another story all together also. but at all times *i believe* that He should my best interests at heart and in His mind, and *for me* beating me to a bloody pulp, or knocking me un-conscience is NOT in my best interest, and IS abuse.

 

[liberatedslave]

I found this an interesting issue on the TPE thread. I can't silence the nagging voice that murmurs 'absolute power corrupts absolutely.' From what I've read, when a couple enter into TPE there is an exchange of promises in the same vein as marriage vows. Most people enter a marriage believing it'll be lifelong & do their best to make it so. I still believe though that TPE should operate under the same duty of care. If a pyl is subject to abuse that has no part in D/s then the TPE agreement is broken IMHO.

 

[catalina_francisco]

i understand and agree with most of what you posted except a couple of things. the 'i know he abuses me, but i love him' is not giving him consent to abuse. i used that very same excuse many times, and i did love Him, i loved him very much. i was with that man from the time i was 13 until i was 23. to say i was consenting to being abused by staying is wrong. i consented to NO such thing. i was terrified to leave, we had 2 kids together i didn't want to rip them away from their father. though what i didn't realize at the time was that i had done more damage to them by staying. he daily told me how ugly i was, how fat, how no one but him would ever want me or want to put up with me. how i could never find anyone who would care for me. not to mention that i could never get a job because i was worthless and no one would hire me because i'm good at nothing. daily i was dragged down, my core was ripped apart until i started believing everything he said about me was true, and when someone would say 'why don't you just leave' i would say.well maybe if i could do xyz better, he wouldn't get so angry. of course that was nto true..but it still was not me consenting to being abused. i truly believed i could change him, and towards the end i truly believed the things he said about me were true and i was terrified of him terrified if i left that he would kill me. anyway...that's only part i didn't agree with from your post.....loving him and staying in that relationship does not = consenting to be abused.

I have to agree with you rose in that saying you love someone does not mean you are consenting or not being abused. The fact is they abuse that love to begin with, they use it to keep you where you are, and they manipulate it to make you believe you are worthless and should be grateful they even bother to abuse you. Love is not something which can be turned off like a tap as we all know. When you fall for someone, believe them to be a certain type of person, and then once that trust and relationship is established the heavy abuse comes out, it is confusing to say the least and is not as simple as falling out of love and walking out the front door, especially if as you did, have children and no income. A part of you still loves the person you fell in love with, and in a strange way cannot accept that person is also the one who abuses you. But it is never consent.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/378277993_fecc21bd9a_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Etoile]

A part of you still loves the person you fell in love with, and in a strange way cannot accept that person is also the one who abuses you.

An excellent point.

BTW, if anybody wants me to go more into consent vs. assent, I can do that. I looked them up in the dictionary and they are basically equivalents, but I am using them for two separate things so if I've caused confusion just say so.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

An excellent point.

BTW, if anybody wants me to go more into consent vs. assent, I can do that. I looked them up in the dictionary and they are basically equivalents, but I am using them for two separate things so if I've caused confusion just say so.

no confusion Etoile, as i said, you made good points just i hate it when someone says, 'she's consenting to the abuse because she makes excuses like she loves him' it's not easy to walk away from an abusive relationship especially if the abuse does not start until after you've fallen in love, which what happened to me. i was with him from 13 and when i turned 17 is when the abuse started, well it was the first time he hit me. i was young, and depended on him for EVERYTHING, starting over terrified me, the relationship was 'comfortable' because it was what i knew. my fear of being alone and then he added to that by manipulating me and having me believe i was worthless, and yes when you are told that you are so many times, you start to believe it, especially when you're given examples of what makes you worthless (no job, etc) so all i was saying to your post is that it's not fair to say she's consenting simply because she says she loves him, because SHE does love him, and as cat said, you can't turn love off like a switch..it's just not that easy even when they are abusing that love. so many people say 'i'd just leave' well it's not that easy and if you've never been presented with the situation then you'd not know how hard it is (that is a general you, i'm not talking to anyone in particular)

 

[catalina_francisco]

so many people say 'i'd just leave' well it's not that easy and if you've never been presented with the situation then you'd not know how hard it is (that is a general you, i'm not talking to anyone in particular)

So many do not realise lots of things, one of them being how dangerous it can be to leave. It was one thing I would never do, tell a woman she should leave....if asked why I hadn't told them that as other counsellors had, I explained to them they knew their partner better than anyone and I was not prepared to tell them to leave and risk having their death on my conscience the rest of my life if that was a real risk for them....it had to be their decision, after having all the info on what they could expect in terms of help and thought as to how they felt their partner would react. Many women and children have died because they left...if the law did more to help, took domestic abuse as serioulsy as they do assault between other people, robbery, etc., perhaps these women and children would not have to choose between years of abuse or certain death. Perpetrators on the whole do not take kindly to losing that control they have enjoyed over their victims...some let it go, others seek the ultimate form of control, murder.


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/376675788_f2e2be5814_t.jpg Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

So many do not realise lots of things, one of them being how dangerous it can be to leave. It was one thing I would never do, tell a woman she should leave....if asked why I hadn't told them that as other counsellors had, I explained to them they knew their partner better than anyone and I was not prepared to tell them to leave and risk having their death on my conscience the rest of my life if that was a real risk for them....it had to be their decision, after having all the info on what they could expect in terms of help and thought as to how they felt their partner would react. Many women and children have died because they left...if the law did more to help, took domestic abuse as serioulsy as they do assault between other people, robbery, etc., perhaps these women and children would not have to choose between years of abuse or certain death. Perpetrators on the whole do not take kindly to losing that control they have enjoyed over their victims...some let it go, others seek the ultimate form of control, murder.


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/376675788_f2e2be5814_t.jpg Catalina

exactly! i was TERRIFIED to leave him AND i loved him. both of those things were hard for everyone around me to understand. i finally left while he was at work and when he got off work he came straight to my dad's house to 'talk' where he threatened me that if i didn't come back he'd just kill me and the kids and that would be the end. if he couldn't have me than no one could. and then when i wasn't letting that get to me, and he saw it, he started saying he'd just go kill himself. i saw the change in his face, his eyes, when he realized he did not have control of me anymore and t hat i was not scared of him. anyway we've been divorced for 5 years now , and he still tries to control me sometimes but he uses the kids now becuase he knows he can't get to me any other way..i'm not afraid of him and tell him so all of the time. for the most part though we get along pretty well and are civil. we have the kids's bday parties together, he'll have cook outs and invite me up there. we just could not live together as a couple. i'm not sure why he was abusive to me and he's not to his new wife...but i'm glad he's not...

 

[Etoile]

I hope nobody thinks I was blaming the victim because I didn't phrase myself well.

My mother was a battered wife for many years. She finally got out of it when I was a year and a half old. She said she didn't care if she was being abused, but she didn't want me to be exposed to it, she didn't want me to be brought up in that environment. So that was her inspiration for making the break, but I am aware that many other women aren't able to leave - and I am aware that murder happens this way. I'm sorry if I seemed callous or like I was blaming the victim. It's not that at all.