Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

[catalina_francisco]

It isn't the action itself, it's the effect of the action on the subject that makes it abuse.

If both partners love extremely rough and aggressive sex, no problem. But if he slams her head into the floor too hard or too often, and her cognitive functioning is permanently impaired, then she's been abused.

If both partners get off on humiliation/degradation, no problem. But if the cumulative effect of the mindfucks or verbal degradation results in a material and sustained reduction in her sense of self-worth and ability to function happily and confidently in the world at large, then she's been abused.

No matter what the two people in the relationship decide, her brain has been damaged in the first case and her ability to function has been impaired in the second.

That's abuse, as I see it.

I understand what you're saying, but it is more lined up with a mainstream understanding and reliant on someone else's judgement as I said previously, or even worse, hindsight and wanting a guarantee that realistically can never be given. If you become a boxer say, and you say you accept there are legitimate risks, especially in long term cognitive areas....then a few years later, those risks become a reality, I don't believe that then makes what your opponents did in matches you consented to, as abuse. To me that is encompassing both the physical, and the mentality behind it. Most successful boxers you talk with will tell you they psyche themselves up before a match to beat their opponent, hate them, physically hurt them and score the match, so then in your definition, they would be guilty of abuse but only if it resulted in some form of damage at some point either at the time or later down the track. For me that is not workable...as I said, you can't have it both ways.

People need to take responsibility for their choices, especially if they want to play in the world of D/s and SM....another beef I have with western society, though mostly in places like Oz and the US more so than Europe...you make your choices in all areas of life and fully informed, but then if the inevitable and/or unexpected happens and all does not go as well as you expected, you hold someone else responsible and look for compensation, usually in the form of cash. For me, if you are going to enter the lifestyle, even if it is only bedroom sex and fun and games, you need to do it fully aware that things may not go as planned, or be predictable, and sometimes are downright high risk to some. For instance, I had never had a problem with bondage until a couple of years ago when unexpectedly I freaked out, and not just on a minor scale but full on hysterical and panic attack and screaming. There was no logical reason at the time, no warning, no hint it was going to go bad in a nanosecond, no way to prevent it, and hardly an activity most think of as very risky...he tried to get me through it but that didn't work, and it has had long long term negative effects, but I also didn't see it as abuse even if we had only been into bedroom sex.

We do like to go beyond the nicer limits of happy play, and fully remain responsible for where that leads us. It may very well leave me with long term or permanent damage at some point, and his intention is to hurt me and even draw blood in doing so, not pretend to hurt me, but that is because I want him to and I love it even when I don't like it, so it is unfair to then say it is abuse if it goes wrong in some way, but no it isn't if all goes well. For me that is like gambling and then demanding your money back when you don't win the jackpot...it is a risk you take, you can't play it both ways.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I understand what you're saying, but it is more lined up with a mainstream understanding and reliant on someone else's judgement as I said previously, or even worse, hindsight and wanting a guarantee that realistically can never be given. If you become a boxer say, and you say you accept there are legitimate risks, especially in long term cognitive areas....then a few years later, those risks become a reality, I don't believe that then makes what your opponents did in matches you consented to, as abuse. To me that is encompassing both the physical, and the mentality behind it. Most successful boxers you talk with will tell you they psyche themselves up before a match to beat their opponent, hate them, physically hurt them and score the match, so then in your definition, they would be guilty of abuse but only if it resulted in some form of damage at some point either at the time or later down the track. For me that is not workable...as I said, you can't have it both ways.

People need to take responsibility for their choices, especially if they want to play in the world of D/s and SM....another beef I have with western society, though mostly in places like Oz and the US more so than Europe...you make your choices in all areas of life and fully informed, but then if the inevitable and/or unexpected happens and all does not go as well as you expected, you hold someone else responsible and look for compensation, usually in the form of cash. For me, if you are going to enter the lifestyle, even if it is only bedroom sex and fun and games, you need to do it fully aware that things may not go as planned, or be predictable, and sometimes are downright high risk to some. For instance, I had never had a problem with bondage until a couple of years ago when unexpectedly I freaked out, and not just on a minor scale but full on hysterical and panic attack and screaming. There was no logical reason at the time, no warning, no hint it was going to go bad in a nanosecond, no way to prevent it, and hardly an activity most think of as very risky...he tried to get me through it but that didn't work, and it has had long long term negative effects, but I also didn't see it as abuse even if we had only been into bedroom sex.

We do like to go beyond the nicer limits of happy play, and fully remain responsible for where that leads us. It may very well leave me with long term or permanent damage at some point, and his intention is to hurt me and even draw blood in doing so, not pretend to hurt me, but that is because I want him to and I love it even when I don't like it, so it is unfair to then say it is abuse if it goes wrong in some way, but no it isn't if all goes well. For me that is like gambling and then demanding your money back when you don't win the jackpot...it is a risk you take, you can't play it both ways.

Catalina

There's scarring, freaking out, and even modifications like loss of a nipple.

And then there is damage which lands you in the hospital and requires a living will.

And how you feel about it within your relationship ultimately has very little to do with it when you reach that point. There is a point where certain practical realities DO come and intrude on whatever completely pure construct you have privately. We are creatures both private AND social in varying degrees.

Can you live this way 24/7? Yes. Can you have, effectively "no limits" yes. Can you go about your business as though your choice and your lack of limits has no bearing when the rest of the world comes knocking? It doesn't make any sense to me to try and do this.

If I do permanently injure and alter my slave past the point where that injury and alteration can be private or plausible to enough people, I am going to be dealing with my behavior being classed as abuse. Going out of my way not to reach this point has nothing to do with liking my play to be friendly or tolerable for him. But I'd never get that into the terminology of totality or completeness in terms of who has the power. I'm perfectly happy to know I have the power limited by our need to function in ways we do, my power is definitely not total because I don't think it can be for me in my situation without being a liability and not a benefit.

In theory H cannot rest assured that I'm not going to extract his left nut. It is important that a slave live with the possibility that I can and may do anything.

In reality he can probably go to bed knowing he'll wake up with both.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Lil slave Rose...Being a Dom doesn't mean beating the shit out of your Sub.....If you've not learned by now that being a Sub or a Dom means that everything.....and I mean everything is done with love and satisfaction on both sides.....Whats the use of beating your Sub bloody and senseless? Yes of course you punish them but you always do it with love, caring, tenderness, The one thing a Sub has to have is the knowledge that her Master loves her, that everything he does is for her own good.....A Sub has to know she is wanted and needed and if a Master cannot do that then he is just a sadist doing it for his own satisfaction.....and that is not a D/S situation A D/S relationship is like a marriage, there has to be give and take on both sides, where you both try to please each other. If that is not happenning Lil slave Rose, then I think it's time you started looking for someone who is a true Master and a true lover, someone you can live with....not someone you can't live without......

*smiles* thank you for your concern, but the question has NOTHING to do with my relationship..my Master is a very loving, caring, Sadistic Bastard and i am His loving, devoted, loyal, Masochistic slut, so it works for us *grins* i was just curious on the thoughts of everyone on this subject.....

 

[JMohegan]

I understand what you're saying, but it is more lined up with a mainstream understanding and reliant on someone else's judgement as I said previously, or even worse, hindsight and wanting a guarantee that realistically can never be given. If you become a boxer say, and you say you accept there are legitimate risks, especially in long term cognitive areas....then a few years later, those risks become a reality, I don't believe that then makes what your opponents did in matches you consented to, as abuse. To me that is encompassing both the physical, and the mentality behind it. Most successful boxers you talk with will tell you they psyche themselves up before a match to beat their opponent, hate them, physically hurt them and score the match, so then in your definition, they would be guilty of abuse but only if it resulted in some form of damage at some point either at the time or later down the track. For me that is not workable...as I said, you can't have it both ways.

People need to take responsibility for their choices, especially if they want to play in the world of D/s and SM....another beef I have with western society, though mostly in places like Oz and the US more so than Europe...you make your choices in all areas of life and fully informed, but then if the inevitable and/or unexpected happens and all does not go as well as you expected, you hold someone else responsible and look for compensation, usually in the form of cash. For me, if you are going to enter the lifestyle, even if it is only bedroom sex and fun and games, you need to do it fully aware that things may not go as planned, or be predictable, and sometimes are downright high risk to some. For instance, I had never had a problem with bondage until a couple of years ago when unexpectedly I freaked out, and not just on a minor scale but full on hysterical and panic attack and screaming. There was no logical reason at the time, no warning, no hint it was going to go bad in a nanosecond, no way to prevent it, and hardly an activity most think of as very risky...he tried to get me through it but that didn't work, and it has had long long term negative effects, but I also didn't see it as abuse even if we had only been into bedroom sex.

We do like to go beyond the nicer limits of happy play, and fully remain responsible for where that leads us. It may very well leave me with long term or permanent damage at some point, and his intention is to hurt me and even draw blood in doing so, not pretend to hurt me, but that is because I want him to and I love it even when I don't like it, so it is unfair to then say it is abuse if it goes wrong in some way, but no it isn't if all goes well. For me that is like gambling and then demanding your money back when you don't win the jackpot...it is a risk you take, you can't play it both ways.

I see three distinct perspectives on this topic. The view from the bottom, the view from the Top, and the view from the outside.

Yours is a passionate argument for the responsibilities of the one on the bottom, and I applaud you for making it. I don't know a single guy whose blood doesn't run cold at the thought of consensual rough sex or pain play with a woman who subsequently gets up, covered in bruises or welts and filled with his spunk, and heads off down to the local police station.

In short, I understand what you are saying and I appreciate the fact that you're saying it very much.

However, you talk about taking responsibility for choices and as I see it from the Top side, a huge part of personal responsibility is constantly keeping in mind the fact that actions have consequences and some actions in particular could have *very* serious consequences for the health and well-being of a partner. If the action causes a material and sustained change in her health and/or ability to function in society, then yes - I personally would consider that abuse.

If the word itself seems too loaded with issues of misplaced culpability, then I suppose that in some cases I would accept a substitution such as "material harm" or something like that. But one can not pretend that the damage itself has not occurred.

Shifting to the third perspective, the view from the outside -

There's scarring, freaking out, and even modifications like loss of a nipple.

And then there is damage which lands you in the hospital and requires a living will.

And how you feel about it within your relationship ultimately has very little to do with it when you reach that point. There is a point where certain practical realities DO come and intrude on whatever completely pure construct you have privately. We are creatures both private AND social in varying degrees.

Exactly.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I dont know if this will add anything new to this thread but never mind:
I was in an abusive relationship that ended a year ago. We also had a D/s relationship, but the two were completely different.

When he 'went abusive' he would change. His whole body and his eyes, everything. He would shout and throw things and yell names (to the point where I was terrified) at me and also throw things at the kittens (which were tiny kittens back then). If he was aiming this at me,generally I would cower and sob. The only time I felt able to retaliate was when he went for the kittens, as they were unable to protect themselves and could have easily been killed. This was abuse, not part of the D/s. It was anger, fury, completely uncontrolled and left me feeling... well.... I cant really describe it.

After a while it escalated to throwing things (including me once) and this I to this day have hidden from my friends and family. And yet to all those around us (apart from my family) I was in the wrong when i eventually managed to end it. Because I had 'hurt him' by leaving and saying it was over.

I am thankfully now in a new relationship and whilst it is not D/s, I would never, ever let another person make me feel the way he did. I am submissive, but I do not now think of myself so little that i would let him treat me the way my ex did.

If I liked that treatment and consented, I do not see it as abuse... but if, as in my situation, then I see that as abuse. No matter what the relationship. D/s or Vanilla... if something makes you feel so ... degraded and awful and a whole host of feelings I cant describe (which I think implies no consent has been given, otherwise why would you feel like that) then it is abuse.

*disclaimer* I am only speaking of course for myself and I appreciate that others have different views... sorry if I have offended anyone!

no offense taken here and everything you said made perfect sense to me, and i agree *smiles*

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I see three distinct perspectives on this topic. The view from the bottom, the view from the Top, and the view from the outside.

Yours is a passionate argument for the responsibilities of the one on the bottom, and I applaud you for making it. I don't know a single guy whose blood doesn't run cold at the thought of consensual rough sex or pain play with a woman who subsequently gets up, covered in bruises or welts and filled with his spunk, and heads off down to the local police station.

In short, I understand what you are saying and I appreciate the fact that you're saying it very much.

However, you talk about taking responsibility for choices and as I see it from the Top side, a huge part of personal responsibility is constantly keeping in mind the fact that actions have consequences and some actions in particular could have *very* serious consequences for the health and well-being of a partner. If the action causes a material and sustained change in her health and/or ability to function in society, then yes - I personally would consider that abuse.

If the word itself seems too loaded with issues of misplaced culpability, then I suppose that in some cases I would accept a substitution such as "material harm" or something like that. But one can not pretend that the damage itself has not occurred.

Shifting to the third perspective, the view from the outside -

Exactly.

JM, awesome posts on this thread, we have disagreed on many things on alot of other threads, but on this one, i agree with you completely.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Lil slave Rose...Being a Dom doesn't mean beating the shit out of your Sub.....If you've not learned by now that being a Sub or a Dom means that everything.....and I mean everything is done with love and satisfaction on both sides.....Whats the use of beating your Sub bloody and senseless? Yes of course you punish them but you always do it with love, caring, tenderness, The one thing a Sub has to have is the knowledge that her Master loves her, that everything he does is for her own good.....A Sub has to know she is wanted and needed and if a Master cannot do that then he is just a sadist doing it for his own satisfaction.....and that is not a D/S situation A D/S relationship is like a marriage, there has to be give and take on both sides, where you both try to please each other. If that is not happenning Lil slave Rose, then I think it's time you started looking for someone who is a true Master and a true lover, someone you can live with....not someone you can't live without......

Ummmm... humna humna humna....

I am not sure where to begin to respond to this, as I am rose's Master and am nothing like the above portrayal.

I love My rose very much, even though I enjoy causing her pain for My pleasure. She takes My pain because she knows that in doing so she is pleasing Me.

In addition to the play, which has never left her bloody, tho maybe close to senseless. I also nurture her life as I guide her growth as a submissive and as a person.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Lil slave Rose...Being a Dom doesn't mean beating the shit out of your Sub.....If you've not learned by now that being a Sub or a Dom means that everything.....and I mean everything is done with love and satisfaction on both sides.....Whats the use of beating your Sub bloody and senseless? Yes of course you punish them but you always do it with love, caring, tenderness, The one thing a Sub has to have is the knowledge that her Master loves her, that everything he does is for her own good.....A Sub has to know she is wanted and needed and if a Master cannot do that then he is just a sadist doing it for his own satisfaction.....and that is not a D/S situation A D/S relationship is like a marriage, there has to be give and take on both sides, where you both try to please each other. If that is not happenning Lil slave Rose, then I think it's time you started looking for someone who is a true Master and a true lover, someone you can live with....not someone you can't live without......

ok i thought i was done with this post but i found a few more things i'd like to add. i KNOW that my Master loves me, no doubt in my mind. i would love for Master to beat me (not so sure about the bloody part as of yet) senseless and He has on occasion. as far as 'pleasing each other' my pleasure comes from knowing i've pleased Him, so if that's give and take, then 'check' we have that also. on a final note, i want BOTH someone i can live with AND someone i cannot live without......and i've found that someone in my Master....

 

[ownedsubgal]

There's scarring, freaking out, and even modifications like loss of a nipple.

And then there is damage which lands you in the hospital and requires a living will.

And how you feel about it within your relationship ultimately has very little to do with it when you reach that point. There is a point where certain practical realities DO come and intrude on whatever completely pure construct you have privately. We are creatures both private AND social in varying degrees.

Can you live this way 24/7? Yes. Can you have, effectively "no limits" yes. Can you go about your business as though your choice and your lack of limits has no bearing when the rest of the world comes knocking? It doesn't make any sense to me to try and do this.

If I do permanently injure and alter my slave past the point where that injury and alteration can be private or plausible to enough people, I am going to be dealing with my behavior being classed as abuse. Going out of my way not to reach this point has nothing to do with liking my play to be friendly or tolerable for him. But I'd never get that into the terminology of totality or completeness in terms of who has the power. I'm perfectly happy to know I have the power limited by our need to function in ways we do, my power is definitely not total because I don't think it can be for me in my situation without being a liability and not a benefit.

In theory H cannot rest assured that I'm not going to extract his left nut. It is important that a slave live with the possibility that I can and may do anything.

In reality he can probably go to bed knowing he'll wake up with both.

all of this depends very much on 2 things: how much the opinions and perceptions of outsiders effects you and your behavior, and how much your slave must function in the outside, vanilla world. while on the one hand i admire you Netzach for being so responsible and aware of the potential repercussions of your actions, and then conducting yourself accordingly, on the other hand it makes me a bit sad for you because living that way seems so constricting. one of the things i want most is for my Master to feel free to express himself and use what is his as he wills, period. if i knew that he couldn't or wouldn't do that because of concerns over what the outside world would think and/or do, that would seriously depress me.

while he does have a reputation to uphold in the community in which we live, and could also potentially face serious consequences regarding custody issues if "caught" in certain situations, this does not stop him from doing whatever he wants with or to me. it helps that i have no public reputation or vanilla persona to uphold. the outside world for the most part does not even know i exist, and of those who do, i am rarely seen, even more rarely actually noticed. this semi-isolation and sheltering serves a myriad of purposes: it aids in keeping my focus, it serves as a useful tool in conditioning and training, bad influences are all but eliminated, it keeps me protected, and it keeps the risks of negative consequences for my Master due to my being abused, very low. the one time when things got a little hairy and police, medical doctors, etc., were asking questions and raising suspicions, it was due to a freak incident where immediate and dramatic medical care was mandatory (and entirely my own fault...but that's another topic). thankfully, Daddy is very charismatic, charming, and a great liar...so we were able to escape that one.

but in normal circumstances, it's not something either of us worries about. but i suppose if the slave has their own public persona to maintain, it could be more of an issue. no less unfortunate imo tho.

 

[Vessira]

I think for me, the key is that something shouldn't be done in ANGER. Striking a sub in the heat of anger seems more OUT of control than in control to me. But where does anger begin and end? Our emotions are not always black and white? And there are many types of abuse, not simply physical.

Now, I am a person who sometimes gets turned on be anger, to a point. Getting in an arguement with my significant other, to get my blood boiling a little bit and makes me wanna mutter, "God I hate you" under my breathe without meaning it. Nothing gets me hotter. Unfortunately, this tendency can lean me towards being attracted to certain types of absuers. In my past, mostly mental and emotional abuse.

There's a saying that goes something like, "You can't love someone without being able to hate them equally." In some ways I can't disagree with that. When I look at my family, no one is as good at frustrating and angering me so complete as they seem to have the ability to, and there's no one I love more fiercely and would do anything for.

There's a strange mental trip that occurs during abuse of any kind that is like this strange emotional bonding. When someone treats you poorly, hits you, makes you feel low, it has such a memorable effect, yet when after the pain is over, what are you left feeling? If you care about the person who is abusing you, often I think there is a rubberband effect, making your emotions swing in the opposite direction. The pain before is now gone, and the abuser tends to respond now with affection, caring, etc. This isn't always the case, just my experience.

It's something akin to being spanked sharply, making your cry out, only to have your skin rubbed and soothed afterwards.

The distinguishing factor between abuse, and BDSM lifestyle activities, etc is the purpose. When I get spanked or experience anything from my Dom, it's never because he is angry with me, or something to make me feel bad about myself, or less of a person. It is because it's something I enjoy, and he enjoys, and we both are concerned about the welfare and happiness of the other.

 

[RJMasters]

Yes of course you punish them but you always do it with love, caring, tenderness, The one thing a Sub has to have is the knowledge that her Master loves her, that everything he does is for her own good.....A Sub has to know she is wanted and needed and if a Master cannot do that then he is just a sadist doing it for his own satisfaction.....and that is not a D/S situation A D/S relationship is like a marriage, there has to be give and take on both sides, where you both try to please each other....

.....a true Master and
.....a true lover,.

So a true Master "always" does it with love, caring, tenderness.

"that everything he does is for her own good" - are you really really sure about this?

"he is just a sadist doing it for his own satisfaction"...sometimes that is very true, but I see this as evidence that he is a master, not that he isn't one.


"A D/S relationship is like a marriage" I don't have the time to go into how on one hand this can be true and on the other hand is probably not true for the majority of people. So I will leave this alone.

A slave is "owned". The slave is there to please their master. If by doing so they themselves recieve a measure of pleasure in doing that then that is good. It is probably why they decided to be a slave in the first place because only at that level could they find fulfillment. The idea that the Master lives to please its slave would make many of the slaves here at lit ill and sick to their stomach at such a thought. Of course having a master who looks after their slave is not neccessarily a bad thing and is probably a good thing, the point is that it would be their decsion as to what degree if any they want to do this.

To me what you described comes closer to a submissive and a Dom where exchange is predicated upon limits and onging conditions which are favorable to one submitting. Or even more like a bottom, which is willing to submit as long as certain things are abided by.

M/s is different than D/s and they are both different than Top/bottom. Each of these share simillarities and often can over lap in the expression of dominance and submission, but they are distinctly different.

It is of course why there is often so much confusion here at this forum because it's all shoved under one umbrella. Were someone able to come to Lit and find a D/s forum and a M/s forum, they could then look at the people in them and have a more acurate meeting of people who are more like-minded. But it has long been the consensus of the community here that we keep it all under one roof, therefore in many ways it is a free-for-all and since there isn't a united agreed upon definition of certain things, a person is free to define for themselves what is true for them. Which is also why semantical based arguements are rampant.

And though I may disagree with what you said, your opinion of what makes a true master is yours to make. As far as you directing your comments to rose, i think there was a misunderstanding on your part as to what rose said. MP, from what I know of him is a great Master/Dom/Sadist to rose.

 

[Chicklet]

my new PYL said the cutest thing to me the other day that I think sums up my opinions very well...

he said "I want to treat you like shit, but I don't want you to *feel* like shit."

 

[Netzach]

all of this depends very much on 2 things: how much the opinions and perceptions of outsiders effects you and your behavior, and how much your slave must function in the outside, vanilla world. while on the one hand i admire you Netzach for being so responsible and aware of the potential repercussions of your actions, and then conducting yourself accordingly, on the other hand it makes me a bit sad for you because living that way seems so constricting. one of the things i want most is for my Master to feel free to express himself and use what is his as he wills, period. if i knew that he couldn't or wouldn't do that because of concerns over what the outside world would think and/or do, that would seriously depress me.

while he does have a reputation to uphold in the community in which we live, and could also potentially face serious consequences regarding custody issues if "caught" in certain situations, this does not stop him from doing whatever he wants with or to me. it helps that i have no public reputation or vanilla persona to uphold. the outside world for the most part does not even know i exist, and of those who do, i am rarely seen, even more rarely actually noticed. this semi-isolation and sheltering serves a myriad of purposes: it aids in keeping my focus, it serves as a useful tool in conditioning and training, bad influences are all but eliminated, it keeps me protected, and it keeps the risks of negative consequences for my Master due to my being abused, very low. the one time when things got a little hairy and police, medical doctors, etc., were asking questions and raising suspicions, it was due to a freak incident where immediate and dramatic medical care was mandatory (and entirely my own fault...but that's another topic). thankfully, Daddy is very charismatic, charming, and a great liar...so we were able to escape that one.

but in normal circumstances, it's not something either of us worries about. but i suppose if the slave has their own public persona to maintain, it could be more of an issue. no less unfortunate imo tho.

I suppose, I guess it's trading one set of constrictions for another set. I actually found it kind of sweet that you said you felt bad, but please don't - I'm doing as works for me. When I think about what I'd do if I could do anything I wanted without the eyes of the world on us, well, frankly humiliation games just aren't so good without an audience.

I'm comfortable and fulfilled with the level of control I have - I don't thrive on the idea of controlling down to the last centimeter, just where it really matters to me.

I guess I define my ownership as total, but my control as very mitigated, in ways I allow it to be mitigated and this works for me.

I guess it's a question of different sets of needs and different personalities. I am more extroverted than my slave and I essentially reqire that he extrovert himself to my level to be useful to me.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

my new PYL said the cutest thing to me the other day that I think sums up my opinions very well...

he said "I want to treat you like shit, but I don't want you to *feel* like shit."

*GRINS*

Great quote, Chicklet!

 

[BeachGurl2]

my new PYL said the cutest thing to me the other day that I think sums up my opinions very well...

he said "I want to treat you like shit, but I don't want you to *feel* like shit."

Gotta love that one. Great quote, Chicklet.





Edited to add: guess I was reading while Geoff was posting. Sorry to look like I was mimicking you, Sir Geoff.

 

[RonClarkeson]

personally I find humiliation much worse.

maybe my idea of abuse is different than others, but i'm shocked at how many people say it's ok for their Dom to 'abuse' them because they have a TPE. i was abused for 10 years in a 'nilla relationship and i'm talking being punched in the face, things thrown at my head, one night beaten so bad that i could not see straight, all out of anger. is it really ok for your Dom to do these things simply because "He's Master"? lashing out in anger and becoming down right violent and beating you so badly you cannot see straight is ok? simply because "He's Master"? i guess i just don't understand that this concept at all....obviously i understand that different things work for different people and what works for me may not work for you, but wow, abuse is abuse is abuse....i would think...

a few also said that in their relationship there would be no such thing as abuse, is this true for almost everyone? do we as pyl's have the right to stand up for ourselves when we feel we've been 'abused'? or should we sit back and take it because they know what's best for us, and after all we did give up 'power' to them. i'm just curious about other peoples ideas on this and i'm not trying to start a fight, just a discussion, honest, i just want to see what everyone has to say on this issue......

I confess to abusing my SO! She likes it!

What I would never do is humilate her. She is a far better human than I am, much more loving and much much more giving, hence the abuse, again my defence is, she likes it.

I have her on a pedastal.

One where I can abuse her body and love her soul!

 

[Etoile]

I confess to abusing my SO! She likes it!

What I would never do is humilate her. She is a far better human than I am, much more loving and much much more giving, hence the abuse, again my defence is, she likes it.

I have her on a pedastal.

One where I can abuse her body and love her soul!

If she likes it, and you have her on a pedestal, is it really abuse? That's the question this thread is asking.

 

[Master_n_Mentor]

OK, I am going to chime back in on this thread because I see some semantical arguments, and other things that are taking away from the question at hand.

* If there is consent either express or implied, as well as mutual enjoyment it is not abuse.

* Different people have different lines of 'consent' and definitions of what abuse is.

With the above said, can abuse happen in the BDSM lifestyle? Hell yes. I am not talking about pushing a scene too far, or going into the extremes of play. I am talking about someone calling themselves Master Joe can manipulate a submissive, especially a novice submissive into believing that he is this great and wonderful guy, then when they start to play he can murder her. Is that an extreme? You bet your ass it is. Does it happen? unfortunately it does. I know someone who came face to face with a serial killer who perported to be a Dominant, but she got away before anything could happen to her. It happens! Be Careful!

I could not agree with you more MasterPhoenix. Great post and very relevant to this discussion; which, by the way, has opened My eyes as to the line between abuse and extreme play. I thought it was very wide line you had to cross. I'm now re-thinking this as I continue to read and find that it probably has a large segment of gray, between the play and the abuse side.

I still stand by My earlier post, but I am learning a great deal.

 

[Lorelei_11]

OK, I am going to chime back in on this thread because I see some semantical arguments, and other things that are taking away from the question at hand.

* If there is consent either express or implied, as well as mutual enjoyment it is not abuse.

* Different people have different lines of 'consent' and definitions of what abuse is.

With the above said, can abuse happen in the BDSM lifestyle? Hell yes. I am not talking about pushing a scene too far, or going into the extremes of play. I am talking about someone calling themselves Master Joe can manipulate a submissive, especially a novice submissive into believing that he is this great and wonderful guy, then when they start to play he can murder her. Is that an extreme? You bet your ass it is. Does it happen? unfortunately it does. I know someone who came face to face with a serial killer who perported to be a Dominant, but she got away before anything could happen to her. It happens! Be Careful!

Yes, thats something thats crossed my mind. Its always good to be cautious, and in D/s situation, to use extreme caution.

 

[Lorelei_11]

I'd just like to say great thread topic lil Slave Rose.

I've read so many perspectives here, and I've learned some things. Shankara's post and JMohegan's, really perfectly described abuse. Thats something I really wondered about when it comes to bdsm.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I'd just like to say great thread topic lil Slave Rose.

I've read so many perspectives here, and I've learned some things. Shankara's post and JMohegan's, really perfectly described abuse. Thats something I really wondered about when it comes to bdsm.

i'm glad you're getting something out of the thread, not long after starting it i wondered if maybe i shouldn't have, so it's good to know others think it's a good topic. *smiles*

 

[Never]

catalina_francisco:
If you become a boxer say, and you say you accept there are legitimate risks, especially in long term cognitive areas....then a few years later, those risks become a reality, I don't believe that then makes what your opponents did in matches you consented to, as abuse."

Is a PYL job to beat the living shit out of a pyl for a crowd of spectators? Is it a boxer's responsibility to make sure that the other boxer knows their limits, that they understand the risks, that they're able to handle the event physically and emotionally, and to make sure that their blows don't go a pre-established line?

When a boxer gets in the ring, they have a huge support network of trainers, coaches, sponsors, doctors, and insurance agents that have spent thousands of dollars preparing them for this moment. They have dozens of people ringside to help them if there's a problem. They have coaches and cameras that make sure no one breaks the rules, and will put a stop to the event if there's a problem.

Do pyls have all of that? Last time I checked, one person is doing that entire job. If that one person doesn't do that job well enough then it's abuse. Consensual abuse perhaps but still abuse.

Yes, mistakes are made. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone is talking about one-offs but continual patterns of behavior.

 

[Never]

Etoile:
"If she likes it, and you have her on a pedestal, is it really abuse?"

I think that if you have responsibility for another person's wellbeing then you damn well better look after it.

 

[Lorelei_11]

i'm glad you're getting something out of the thread, not long after starting it i wondered if maybe i shouldn't have, so it's good to know others think it's a good topic. *smiles*

I'm definately glad you did. I've done a lot of reading here. I didn't even know what T.P.E was. I'm seeing how people define it, since there are no safe words, how do you define abuse under those circumstances? People were able to define it. Lots of explanation of things here, and disagreements.

I read to much, until my minds in almost a spin. lol I'm just very curious. Then I realize, I need to slow down or will forget things.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Yes, mistakes are made. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone is talking about one-offs but continual patterns of behavior.

exactly..thank you *smiles*