A question regarding punishment

[Keroin]

...eating ice cream on Saturn.

*adds to bucket list*








/hijack

 

[HottieMama]

Well, I don't know about your PYLs being mean and heartless, but happy submissive women will call up a Stepford vibe to the rest of us-- who are not always happy, and find ourselves in daily negotiations, not to mention outright battles-- in our relationships.

I think that simply knowing, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what your role is, what you and he are responsible for-- is the biggest boon for D/s couples. It isn't the D, or the s. It's simply the clear cuts.

Completely agree, and that issue is what I struggle with immensely at times.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I shouldn't have said "Boon" as if this clear cut role was a given, a done deal. I should have probably said "In theory" or "in fantasy."

 

[the captians wench]

Welkin, I didn't see ES saying to censor communication. She suggested censoring behavior [actions]. Those are two totally different animals [communication/behavior], in my book.



Mmmmm... I'd have to disagree with that. Because when living with someone, you have to deal with all the nit picky house/bills/cat barfing on the rug/last minute demands of work type complications that IMO are easier to ignore/work around when D/s is being lived by email/phone/text/net. Yes all those annoying life-issues are still there in a LDR, but they aren't as obvious.



The only part that doesn't make sense to me, is the belief that face to face 24/7 submission somehow avoids the issues listed above. 24/7 face to face still offers PLENTY of opportunities to misunderstand one another, or simply not "get" why a PYL wants something done, or even just have one of those days where submissive perfection is about as likely as eating ice cream on Saturn.



Good to hear, but I can't figure out from this little snippet if you discussed silence as punishment in the future along with the possibility of removing it from the "punishment arsenal". It's awesome that he says it's behind y'all, but just because he says it is, doesn't mean you'll automatically [emotionally] follow suit.

CM, I you. Really.

 

[welkin]

Given that you are in LDR, Kim, I'd guess that your time with your dom was spent being physically intimate, a lot. That can give the false illusion that being together makes obedience easier. I would say sexual obedience is probably easier than day to day mundane obedience. Sex is an extremely subjective thing, so it's natural for the dom to decide what to do and be right by definition -- surely he would know what's hot for him! It gets harder when it comes to things where "rightness" isn't defined by what one person feels, and sometimes you may very well question his decision. And when you aren't in the erotic mood, it may be difficult to channel obedience into what makes you feel good and therefore happy to do.

 

[midwestyankee]

Given that you are in LDR, Kim, I'd guess that your time with your dom was spent being physically intimate, a lot. That can give the false illusion that being together makes obedience easier. I would say sexual obedience is probably easier than day to day mundane obedience. Sex is an extremely subjective thing, so it's natural for the dom to decide what to do and be right by definition -- surely he would know what's hot for him! It gets harder when it comes to things where "rightness" isn't defined by what one person feels, and sometimes you may very well question his decision. And when you aren't in the erotic mood, it may be difficult to channel obedience into what makes you feel good and therefore happy to do.

Exactly. Obedience is a piece of cake when the most challenging order is "Blow me for 30 minutes without either one of us coming to a climax."

 

[welkin]

Welkin, I didn't see ES saying to censor communication. She suggested censoring behavior [actions]. Those are two totally different animals [communication/behavior], in my book.

I wasn't disagreeing on censoring behavior, I was disagreeing on

Perhaps this punishment has worked.
[...]
Punishment is not suppose to be fun.

It sounded like ecstatic was approving such punishment. And my point was, whatever the dom was trying to achieve through silence punishment, it was unnecessary and there were better options.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I wasn't disagreeing on censoring behavior, I was disagreeing on



It sounded like ecstatic was approving such punishment. And my point was, whatever the dom was trying to achieve through silence punishment, it was unnecessary and there were better options.

you'd have to convince him of that, though. By the rules of that game, the dominant has the last word. Either you work with those rules, or you play a different game.

I know that I often agitate for a different game, or suggest that someone isn't playing the game they think they are. But if someone wants to play football, you can't tell them they should be dribbling a basketball instead.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

It sounded like ecstatic was approving such punishment. And my point was, whatever the dom was trying to achieve through silence punishment, it was unnecessary and there were better options.

Well, that's the thing. YOU think there are better options. You're not kim's dom though, so it doesn't really matter.

And es wasn't approving of the punishment, she was pointing out that punishment isn't supposed to be fun, and that it actually isn't for most people.

And from reading kim's op, it sounded as if she knew damned well what she was doing, and it had previously been explained to her that doing what she did would put him in a risky position. I think 3 days of no contact was probably fairly light, given that. Putting someone at risk puts your relationship at risk too.

 

[ecstaticsub]

On the day we met I was perfectly obediant. I think in 24/7 relationships obediance is much easier ,when your in a couple relationship, when your live togeather or are married.
Obediance for me is harder as theres distance involved. E mails and text messages convey written words but there is now infelection, no body language. Meanings, importance, strenght of feeling and emphasis can be easily misunderstood.
I seek to be obediant but I have to understand why the request/instruction is important to him. Once i have clarity then obediance is natural. If I make him happy then I'm happy. If its not clear or the importance is not emphasised then it easy to slip up.

Does that make sense? i know what I'm trying to say but not sure I'm making any sense except to my self.

Any way I had to hear his voice to make sure everything was alright. He texted me 2 mins after midnight to put me out of my misery. I spoke to him on the phone an hour or so ago.I'm reassured that its sorted. He dosent hold grudges. He says it is all behind us.

But I neeeded to hear him say it

Will it happen again? I think of us as a partnership but I also want him to have the final say in things. So although I kicked and screamed and stamped my feet about the silent treatment it has reinforced the point that actually he is in charge, when he says something he means it, , for a very good reason and he wont be persuaded otherwise. Or manipulated to change his mind , as i was acused of.

And that is a valuable lesson .

It's great to hear he contacted you. What do you think of using the silent treatment as punishment now that it is over? Do you see it as cruel? Did he explain why he used it as opposed to something else?

Being in a LDR can be very hard in a different way then when a couple lives in the same household. Obedience is always difficult when you are asked to do something that you really don't want to do no matter how close together you live.

My personal feelings is that obedience takes time. I found as my relationship matured my trust in my Daddy increased so it was easier to just obey, immediate obedience is what I strive for. It doesn't always happen but I do try.

I also found that I don't need to know why he wants something or to really understand why it is important to him. It is enough that he wants it so.

That doesn't make me a robotic Stepford-like submissive. If there was something I really had an issue with I would ask for clarification and discussion. There is a way to do that without disobedience.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's great to hear he contacted you. What do you think of using the silent treatment as punishment now that it is over? Do you see it as cruel? Did he explain why he used it as opposed to something else?

Being in a LDR can be very hard in a different way then when a couple lives in the same household. Obedience is always difficult when you are asked to do something that you really don't want to do no matter how close together you live.

My personal feelings is that obedience takes time. I found as my relationship matured my trust in my Daddy increased so it was easier to just obey, immediate obedience is what I strive for. It doesn't always happen but I do try.

I also found that I don't need to know why he wants something or to really understand why it is important to him. It is enough that he wants it so.

That doesn't make me a robotic Stepford-like submissive. If there was something I really had an issue with I would ask for clarification and discussion. There is a way to do that without disobedience.

The bolded is the key.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I wasn't disagreeing on censoring behavior, I was disagreeing on



It sounded like ecstatic was approving such punishment. And my point was, whatever the dom was trying to achieve through silence punishment, it was unnecessary and there were better options.

Well, that's the thing. YOU think there are better options. You're not kim's dom though, so it doesn't really matter.

And es wasn't approving of the punishment, she was pointing out that punishment isn't supposed to be fun, and that it actually isn't for most people.

And from reading kim's op, it sounded as if she knew damned well what she was doing, and it had previously been explained to her that doing what she did would put him in a risky position. I think 3 days of no contact was probably fairly light, given that. Putting someone at risk puts your relationship at risk too.

I do approve of the punishment. I agree with Lizzie, 3 days of no contact when kim knew before hand when the period was going to end is not so bad. There are far worse punishments.

It seems sometime we vilify the big bad dominant male during this discussions. We don't know his side of the story. He can choose whatever punishment he wants. We don't even know exactly what the offense was. Even if we did it is not up to us to decide the appropriateness of the punishment.

I'm not saying we can't give our opinions, but to say there are better options is stretching it a bit.

I have more to say on this thread but it's dinner time. bbl

 

[Mz_Cunningham]

I do approve of the punishment. I agree with Lizzie, 3 days of no contact when kim knew before hand when the period was going to end is not so bad. There are far worse punishments.

It seems sometime we vilify the big bad dominant male during this discussions. We don't know his side of the story. He can choose whatever punishment he wants. We don't even know exactly what the offense was. Even if we did it is not up to us to decide the appropriateness of the punishment.

I'm not saying we can't give our opinions, but to say there are better options is stretching it a bit.

I have more to say on this thread but it's dinner time. bbl

Thank you.

I have noticed that people are very quick for blaming a dom for punishing his sub...I'm sorry but isn't that generally accepted (yes I know not in all relationships) and she has shown that she accepts the punishment even if she doesn't like it.

You're not supposed to enjoy punishment, but all evidence shows that it has worked. Not to mention she says she did something wrong, he didn't arbitrarily decide to punish her, and frankly not being talked to for a few days, there are much more worse punishments.

But I think it's also a sympton of culture these days I think, that it has become wrong to punish anybody for them doing something wrong.

 

[the captians wench]

If there was something I really had an issue with I would ask for clarification and discussion. There is a way to do that without disobedience.

I think this is the biggest issue I have come across. Many pyls, usually newer pyls, seem to think that once a PYL gives an order, or sets a rule, they must follow it with out question. I've found that usually this leads to disapointment, on both ends. I've also found most PYLs would rather you ask for clairification than break a rule/order/what have you.

 

[welkin]

But I think it's also a sympton of culture these days I think, that it has become wrong to punish anybody for them doing something wrong.

And what might you think you can achieve through punishment that you cannot achieve through communication (other than the dom's sadistic pleasure)?

I find it hard to imagine people recommending punishment to a vanilla couple ("He spent too much money on his new car? Well then don't have sex with him for a week!"). As far as I can see, Kim was not enjoying the silence treatment, she didn't even look like she's enjoying the fact that she's not enjoying it (in the "consensual nonconsent" way), so why should a dom get away with more nonconsensual, hurtful things? Yes I know Kim admitted that she had hurt him, but that makes it his right to hurt her back? Should she retaliate because now she has been hurt too?

...

 

[welkin]

Well, that's the thing. YOU think there are better options. You're not kim's dom though, so it doesn't really matter.

And es wasn't approving of the punishment, she was pointing out that punishment isn't supposed to be fun, and that it actually isn't for most people.

And from reading kim's op, it sounded as if she knew damned well what she was doing, and it had previously been explained to her that doing what she did would put him in a risky position. I think 3 days of no contact was probably fairly light, given that. Putting someone at risk puts your relationship at risk too.

Nor are you Kim, so your thinking 3 days of no contact is a light punishment doesn't really matter either.

She might eventually agree with you that 3 days of no contact is okay, but all I'm saying is, despite all others who think the punishment is suitable for the crime (or whatnot), if she doesn't think it works for her, she doesn't have to take it.

 

[HottieMama]

("He spent too much money on his new car? Well then don't have sex with him for a week!").

Do you honestly have any idea how many women tell other women to do things like this to thier husbands, and how many women actually do it.

When you agree to a D/s relationship as a sub, you agree to "punishment" or "correction" for your misbehavior. That's where part of the whole discipline thing comes in for me. Punishment is not for enjoyment, and the consent is implied because she agreed to the relationship in the first place.

 

[welkin]

Do you honestly have any idea how many women tell other women to do things like this to thier husbands, and how many women actually do it.

When you agree to a D/s relationship as a sub, you agree to "punishment" or "correction" for your misbehavior. That's where part of the whole discipline thing comes in for me. Punishment is not for enjoyment, and the consent is implied because she agreed to the relationship in the first place.

I know women do it, but I doubt that would be the recommended or approved course of action. Or even if it is recommended by women, I highly doubt it's conducive to the relationship...

And as I pointed out earlier, there is not one right way to lead a D/s relationship (especially when our definition of "D/s" vary from one individual to another), and especially in the early stage, it ought to be under frequent renegotiation as one gets to know oneself better.

 

[welkin]

you'd have to convince him of that, though. By the rules of that game, the dominant has the last word. Either you work with those rules, or you play a different game.

I know that I often agitate for a different game, or suggest that someone isn't playing the game they think they are. But if someone wants to play football, you can't tell them they should be dribbling a basketball instead.

I thought we are beyond labeling the games... there is only one game I play and that is whatever makes me happy (barring the illegal, the unethical, the insane... all the usual suspects).

In honesty, part of the beauty of bdsm that I like is that we invent our own rules within every relationship. We've already deviated from the mainstream, there is no point to recreate a mainstream within bdsm that everyone has to follow. If I obey my dom, it's not because he is my dom, but because I find joy in obeying him. (Yes there are slaves who will perform tasks that they do not enjoy, but in the end that does feed into their nature as a slave and provides fulfillment for the identity they chose. Even the most dedicated slave will have their own limits.)

 

[the captians wench]

I know women do it, but I doubt that would be the recommended or approved course of action. Or even if it is recommended by women, I highly doubt it's conducive to the relationship...

And as I pointed out earlier, there is not one right way to lead a D/s relationship (especially when our definition of "D/s" vary from one individual to another), and especially in the early stage, it ought to be under frequent renegotiation as one gets to know oneself better.

While I don't agree that the silent treatment is an effective punishment or consequence, there are reasons in here that I believe it might be for kim.

She admits she knew she was doing something she wasn't supposed to, she also admits that it might have been discussed that "no contact" might be used as punishment. She also admits that it has made her think about why she did what she did, and even why she started this thread.

It seems like she's developed a deeper understanding of her relationship. And that in my mind makes it effective.

Now I hope that they talked about what she did, the consequences and how they both feel about them.

We all have different ways of living out our relationships. Jounar's favorite consequence is to have me sit on tacks for an hour, he's also had me stand on them for some time. Some people say that's harsh, but I have consented to follow his rules and to accept the consequences of not doing so. Punishment is more for him in our relationship. All I really need is to hear "I'm disappointed" and my world comes to an end. He needs something more physically visible. Some people need the penance, some don't. It all makes the world more colorful.

 

[Etoile]

Psst. Look three posts up.

ooooooops I has a reading comprehension p0rblem

 

[the captians wench]

ooooooops I has a reading comprehension p0rblem

u haz hot av

 

[Lilac_Sky]

u haz hot av

Good grief Etoile, your new av is amazing *wipes the drool off her chin*

 

[Etoile]

Y'all are sweet! It's a few years old, it's been in my sig for a while! One of the "more recent" pictures. Which are no longer so recent!

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Nor are you Kim, so your thinking 3 days of no contact is a light punishment doesn't really matter either.

She might eventually agree with you that 3 days of no contact is okay, but all I'm saying is, despite all others who think the punishment is suitable for the crime (or whatnot), if she doesn't think it works for her, she doesn't have to take it.

That's true, she doesn't have to. She can always leave him.

If no contact wasn't a hard limit beforehand, he has the right to use it as a punishment. If after use, kim decides that's a hard limit and says so, and her dom uses it as punishment again, then she'd have cause to do something about it.

But for now, I honestly don't see what the fuss is.