A question regarding punishment

[eastern sun]

And THIS is what I have a problem with in a nutshell. This type of punishment creates doubt (for me). Doubt creates fear. Fear creates lack of trust. Lack of trust, for ME, means the relationship is over...

But when he comes back, there is also an opportunity to develop increased trust that he'll do what he says. And, depending on her response, that she'll behave responsibly towards him.

That can, in fact, be the foundation on which people build relationships that allow them to successfully take greater risks with each other.

(For the record, withdrawal or limitation of contact is the primary form of un-fun punishment in my world - and I live with him. It can be blessing. It can give perspective to both of us.)

 

[welkin]

Meh. I think I am more and more a bottom who acts submissively in the bedroom, and not a sub at core. Getting the silence treatment (other than for both people to cool down) would only incite bitterness or even retaliation from me...

So, hijacking the thread a little, how do you keep the doms/tops in check? What do you subs do when the doms do something awful? Do you break out of your role for a moment to address the issue, or deal with it some other way that is still aligned with your submissive nature?

 

[eastern sun]

This question irks me a little...

What if the dom is the one who broke the promise and kim here is the one dishing out the silence treatment? Would people tell the dom "just shut up and think about what you did wrong"?

Breaking promise and finding ways to amend it, in my opinion, is not a bdsm problem but rather a relationship problem. I don't think the dom has any more excuse than a sub to disregard the fundamentals that make a relationship work -- namely communication in this case.

If the dominant one broke the promise, I would suggest that kim should consider finding a more trustworthy partner.

Do you think I should give that suggestion to her dom?


eta: I also think that communication is taking place. Maybe not the most comfortable form of communication, but kim certainly knows what's going on. And I am trusting - for the time being - that he is honorable and will return at the end of the punishment. At which point, I am assuming that they will continue to communicate with each other.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If the dominant one broke the promise, I would suggest that kim should consider finding a more trustworthy partner.

Do you think I should give that suggestion to her dom?

Well no, because the rules that you guys have established say that the Dom has absolute responsibility. The buck stops there.

 

[eastern sun]

Well no, because the rules that you guys have established say that the Dom has absolute responsibility. The buck stops there.

Who made those rules, Stella?

 

[HottieMama]

Meh. I think I am more and more a bottom who acts submissively in the bedroom, and not a sub at core. Getting the silence treatment (other than for both people to cool down) would only incite bitterness or even retaliation from me...

So, hijacking the thread a little, how do you keep the doms/tops in check? What do you subs do when the doms do something awful? Do you break out of your role for a moment to address the issue, or deal with it some other way that is still aligned with your submissive nature?

I am much more like you than I am a "24/7 submissive," but I have been in a few 24/7 relationships. When S.T.B. ex-HusDom would do something that I could not "deal" with, I would break role, as you put it, and address it with him. It typically did not go over well, but I put the blame for that on him and not on Doms as a whole. I had different experiences in previous relationships with Doms who were very self-confident in their abilities and were not threatened by my addressing/discussing an issue as an equal.

 

[eastern sun]

I am much more like you than I am a "24/7 submissive," but I have been in a few 24/7 relationships. When S.T.B. ex-HusDom would do something that I could not "deal" with, I would break role, as you put it, and address it with him. It typically did not go over well, but I put the blame for that on him and not on Doms as a whole. I had different experiences in previous relationships with Doms who were very self-confident in their abilities and were not threatened by my addressing/discussing an issue as an equal.

Can I be frank? I don't think people who are looking for TPE as primary relationships are all that good at give-and-take to begin with.

 

[eastern sun]

I'm realizing something . . .

I approach all of this as slave. Maybe M/s and D/s really do take fundamentally different approaches to this type of thing.

I am deeply committed to my opinions, but you should understand them in the context in which they were formed, and always take them with a grain of salt.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Who made those rules, Stella?

That's the question I keep asking; Where do you guys get this stuff from? !?!?!

I was at a munch today, with Dr Robert Rubel who talked about the old guard leather traditions and demonstrated some protocol.

The hetero BDSM scene can talk about how they are establishing new traditions, but damn. There are some very impressive things about the old guard.

 

[FurryFury]

I don't believe in punishment.

I believe in consequences.

Ignoring someone, cutting them off is a big deal to me. I'm very against it. I have abandonment issues.

So I hope he finishes this "punishment" up then comes back for a real discussion about what happened and why. If his punishment means you feel you are not allowed to communicate a very serious error has occurred because, as far as I can tell, no relationship works well or healthily without decent communication going on.

I'm sure someone will correct me though.

 

[eastern sun]

That's the question I keep asking; Where do you guys get this stuff from? !?!?!

I was at a munch today, with Dr Robert Rubel who talked about the old guard leather traditions and demonstrated some protocol.

The hetero BDSM scene can talk about how they are establishing new traditions, but damn. There are some very impressive things about the old guard.

Does the old guard embrace behavior modification? What are the rules regarding behavior and obedience for slaves?


eta: great link. thanks.

 

[DVS]

No correction here, FurryFury. I don't believe in punishment, either. I like to play punish in a scene, but real punishment is not for me. I simply see people as adults with rights and set limits and treat them as such. Using something similar to "a time out", while it might allow both parties to calm down and think rationally about what has happened, I don't think it really helps, aside from that.

When things go wrong, communication is the only thing that makes sense to me. Knowing what each of you want and need in a relationship works best. Honesty and understanding between two people is necessary. And forgiving those little mistakes is a part of it, too, because all humans make mistakes.

 

[FurryFury]

Lovely to hear a like mind about this!

*hugs*

FF

No correction here, FurryFury. I don't believe in punishment, either. I like to play punish in a scene, but real punishment is not for me. I simply see people as adults with rights and set limits and treat them as such. Using something similar to "a time out", while it might allow both parties to calm down and think rationally about what has happened, I don't think it really helps, aside from that.

When things go wrong, communication is the only thing that makes sense to me. Knowing what each of you want and need in a relationship works best. Honesty and understanding between two people is necessary. And forgiving those little mistakes is a part of it, too, because all humans make mistakes.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Daddy has had a few times where we have not had contact. But never as punishment. We had a few days where we were both irritable and we bickering about stupid things. Then something major happened and we hung up the phone. He emailed or IM'd me that he would not be contacting me for three days and to just wait it out.

I knew he needed to cool off, I needed to cool off and we frankly both needed to take some time to get others things situated so that we could come back refreshed and be a bit more rational.

There has been at least 2 times in the past 6 years that I have asked for a period of time off from being submissive. Both times his response was no, unless I took time off also from any contact with him. Both times I chose to take the time-- he picked how much time and it ended up being 2 weeks. It was very painful. But it was NOT a punishment. Once the decision was I was not allowed to change my mind.

During both times I ended up wishing it could have been only 1 day. But by the time the 2 weeks was over I was thankful for the time. I wrote emails to him that I did not send, I talked to friends I got my home life in order. I got rid of some stresses in my everyday life that was making submission difficult for me. It also gave him time to concentrate on his own personal stuff.

We always had an end date. I NEVER ever was afraid he would not come back. I never thought that the break would result in our relationship ending. During the breaks I would send him off-line messages just to touch base. Sometimes he would answer back with one liners. It was like a little touch just to say "this is ok, this is the right decision"

We always ended up stronger and deeper in love after these breaks. They helped us.

Taking a step back to cool down or to try to get another point of view of your relationship is a very good thing. Some people need more then a few hours or days to calm down when very angry. Forcing them to communicate before they are ready is a mistake.

Trust your relationship and just wait.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Meh. I think I am more and more a bottom who acts submissively in the bedroom, and not a sub at core. Getting the silence treatment (other than for both people to cool down) would only incite bitterness or even retaliation from me...

So, hijacking the thread a little, how do you keep the doms/tops in check? What do you subs do when the doms do something awful? Do you break out of your role for a moment to address the issue, or deal with it some other way that is still aligned with your submissive nature?

A D/s relationship is not suppose to be fair. He does what he wants. I accept it or I can leave. His "punishment" is the loss of our relationship if it is something so bad that I can not accept it.

I can tell him if something he has done has upset me or hurt me. He has said he is sorry for some things he has done unintentionally.

 

[midwestyankee]

@kimuk, as I recall from your earlier threads, your partner has an account here at Lit. So my question to you is this: do you think that it's helping or hurting your relationship to be discussing this issue in a public forum? Because he almost certainly will have read this thread by the time the two of you are back in touch.

I'm starting to wonder what your motive might be for starting this thread, knowing that he's likely to see it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Does the old guard embrace behavior modification? What are the rules regarding behavior and obedience for slaves?


eta: great link. thanks.

I don't know that much about them, but I'm researching a bit. From what I saw, though, it would be such a haven for so many people. The rules are learned before you join the community.

One thing that he said, was that a person will petition a master to become their slave. A master has had the title conferred on them, by a group of people who have watched and judged and who feel that person has reached an admirable state.

Of course I'm assuming that's a best case scenario haha because we all know how often things work perfectly.

Slavery is something a bit like an apprenticeship-- there is a time limit-- and the object of a master-slave relationship is that the slave has learned by doing until the master considers him or her ready to be a master in their own right. So five years down the road, a master will release his slave from slavery.

This you notice, is seperate from issues of love. It explains to me the many master/master couples I've met in the leather scene-- men who love each other regardless of their play preferences.

What I see in the hetero community is that there is rarely a consideration of growth. Women are "Submissive" and will remain so, fight to remain so, long after they would have grown up-- had they been men. I know how many of you subs talk about the ways in which you've taken on more and more responsibility (we won't call it power) within your relationship. In the old guard, as I understand it, that's considered a natural progression.

 

[seela]

I don't know that much about them, but I'm researching a bit. From what I saw, though, it would be such a haven for so many people. The rules are learned before you join the community.

One thing that he said, was that a person will petition a master to become their slave. A master has had the title conferred on them, by a group of people who have watched and judged and who feel that person has reached an admirable state.

Of course I'm assuming that's a best case scenario haha because we all know how often things work perfectly.

Slavery is something a bit like an apprenticeship-- there is a time limit-- and the object of a master-slave relationship is that the slave has learned by doing until the master considers him or her ready to be a master in their own right. So five years down the road, a master will release his slave from slavery.

This you notice, is seperate from issues of love. It explains to me the many master/master couples I've met in the leather scene-- men who love each other regardless of their play preferences.

What I see in the hetero community is that there is rarely a consideration of growth. Women are "Submissive" and will remain so, fight to remain so, long after they would have grown up-- had they been men. I know how many of you subs talk about the ways in which you've taken on more and more responsibility (we won't call it power) within your relationship. In the old guard, as I understand it, that's considered a natural progression.

This is exactly what I don't care for about Old Guard. Being submissive = being un-grown-up and becoming dominant or at least more dominant is the desired goal.

For me being submissive has never meant having no responsibility. It never even occurred to me that submissiveness and lack of responsibility do coincide for many until I started looking into other people's lives through boards, munches, parties and such. Responsibility, IMO, is just as prone to changes in the relationship as any other things. When the relationship ages, it changes, too. Natural progression, sure, growth, not neccessarily.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is exactly what I don't care for about Old Guard. Being submissive = being un-grown-up and becoming dominant or at least more dominant is the desired goal.

No, being a slave is a step on the way to becoming a master, meaning master of what you do. The guy who gave the talk is a master-- and also very much service oriented, which, I think, is the kind of submission you're talking about.

For me being submissive has never meant having no responsibility. It never even occurred to me that submissiveness and lack of responsibility do coincide for many until I started looking into other people's lives through boards, munches, parties and such. Responsibility, IMO, is just as prone to changes in the relationship as any other things. When the relationship ages, it changes, too. Natural progression, sure, growth, not neccessarily.

As you see, Seela, your notion of what "submissive" means doesn't jive with a huge portion of the hetero community. In fact, I'd say you're more in tune with the old guard.

 

[seela]

No, being a slave is a step on the way to becoming a master, meaning master of what you do. The guy who gave the talk is a master-- and also very much service oriented, which, I think, is the kind of submission you're talking about.

As you see, Seela, your notion of what "submissive" means doesn't jive with a huge portion of the hetero community. In fact, I'd say you're more in tune with the old guard.

Yes, I know that my notion of what submissive is doesn't match that of the majority's, but I don't quite feel the Old Guard's definitions do it for me either. So I've given up categorizing some time ago. (Which is also a part of why I stopped attending any events and munches and just roam the internet, but I digress.)

Unfortunately, though, I'm not sure I understand the first part of your post. One can surely master being slave, as well? As in becoming really good at doing what's expected, obeying, learning all kinds of poses and rituals and so on, so forth. So where would that land in the Old Guard territory? And I think wanting and/or enjoying being in control of things is a major element in being dominant or master, so maybe that's why I'm having a hard time grasping the concept of being a master in this context.

And I'm really sorry for the hijack. Maybe we should continue this discussion in PMs or a separate thread?

 

[eastern sun]

I don't know that much about them, but I'm researching a bit. From what I saw, though, it would be such a haven for so many people. The rules are learned before you join the community.

One thing that he said, was that a person will petition a master to become their slave. A master has had the title conferred on them, by a group of people who have watched and judged and who feel that person has reached an admirable state.

Of course I'm assuming that's a best case scenario haha because we all know how often things work perfectly.

Slavery is something a bit like an apprenticeship-- there is a time limit-- and the object of a master-slave relationship is that the slave has learned by doing until the master considers him or her ready to be a master in their own right. So five years down the road, a master will release his slave from slavery.

This you notice, is seperate from issues of love. It explains to me the many master/master couples I've met in the leather scene-- men who love each other regardless of their play preferences.

What I see in the hetero community is that there is rarely a consideration of growth. Women are "Submissive" and will remain so, fight to remain so, long after they would have grown up-- had they been men. I know how many of you subs talk about the ways in which you've taken on more and more responsibility (we won't call it power) within your relationship. In the old guard, as I understand it, that's considered a natural progression.

You're describing exactly the relationship of a leather friend of mine in which he was contracted as a slave for one-year and then released to take on a slave of his own.

If you, Stella, are steeped in the idea of submissives as apprentices, then it totally makes sense that you would think the hetero practice of D/s was locking the submissive into a "less than" status.

I don't see it that way. I don't think the submissive party in a hetero couple is in any way "less than" the dominant one. I'll admit there are a lot of people who are hoping to find an easy way out of the difficult job of being a grown-up by adopting a submissive role in a D/s relationship. From the evidence on these boards and in the community, those relationships don't seem to last, though.

Being submissive in my relationship does not, in any way whatsoever, imply that I have less power to take action, speak my mind, or be an engaged participant in the life I am living. Instead, it allows me to feel comfortable taking the "right-hand man" position as a viable option.

Obviously, I'm not scrambling to the top of any ladder, nor bumping against a glass ceiling (I fully support the women who want to do that). I just don't want to feel ashamed of my desires to be in that position. Nor do I want that position to be dismissed or minimized by people who don't want to be there.

 

[seela]

Being submissive in my relationship does not, in any way whatsoever, imply that I have less power to take action, speak my mind, or be an engaged participant in the life I am living. Instead, it allows me to feel comfortable taking the "right-hand man" position as a viable option.

Obviously, I'm not scrambling to the top of any ladder, nor bumping against a glass ceiling (I fully support the women who want to do that). I just don't want to feel ashamed of my desires to be in that position. Nor do I want that position to be dismissed or minimized by people who don't want to be there.

Ding ding ding!

And ES has done it again - succintly written what I think but haven't managed to type out.

 

[kimuk]

@kimuk, as I recall from your earlier threads, your partner has an account here at Lit. So my question to you is this: do you think that it's helping or hurting your relationship to be discussing this issue in a public forum? Because he almost certainly will have read this thread by the time the two of you are back in touch.

I'm starting to wonder what your motive might be for starting this thread, knowing that he's likely to see it.

And you Sir have hit the nail right on the head. I started the thread when I was angry. When , in my opinion he had overreacted and was exerting his power to prove a point. Yes I absolutly know he will read it and that maybe he already has.
So on looking at my motives - communication was cut off. I used the thread as a way to show him I was upset about what I he had done and that I saw it as the wrong solution to the problem. A public display of my hurt?
My biggest problem is that I tend to act on impluse. I act and then think about the consequences later. I don't analyse what the outcome will be. Just raw emotion. I felt angry. I was hurt.
When communication is withdrawn then you start to have all kinds of fears. Is he doing this because he wants this to be over and this is the oveture to it? Have I done so much damage to the realationship that there is no going back? Will he ever trust me again?
It breeds doubt and fear.
So as I cannot talk to him I posted here. Impulsively.
I often make mistakes , its a new experiance for me , I need learner plates on me. I need explicit explanations. I need to understand completely before I accept. I need to think before I act. I'm very aware of my failings.
In his defence ......punishment has never been on the agenda before. He is a fair , honest , considerate , even tempered , balanced Dom. I have the upmost respect for him. I couldn't ask for more.
Will my knee jerk reaction make the situation worse? Will he be even more angry because I sort help here? I hope not.
But as most things in life time will tell and I hope ( if I've judged him right) we can use it as a means of sorting things out .
I have learn't however that the thing he told me not to do was for my own protection as much as his. That he told me not to do it, not just because he could but for a very good reason. He was trying to protect me and I didnt listen to him.
For that I am truely sorry.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Unfortunately, though, I'm not sure I understand the first part of your post. One can surely master being slave, as well? As in becoming really good at doing what's expected, obeying, learning all kinds of poses and rituals and so on, so forth. So where would that land in the Old Guard territory? And I think wanting and/or enjoying being in control of things is a major element in being dominant or master, so maybe that's why I'm having a hard time grasping the concept of being a master in this context.

Of course you are, because you think of "master," which might be considered a statement of community respect and a statement of a skill level, as equal to "dom" which is a hardwired quality. Consider "master" in the sense of "professor." Not the same as "Beloved who sets the rules and decides what I wear in the morning."

Back in the nineties, I knew a Mistress Carol, who was at the end of her days. Still she was honored and cared for by many people-- everyone who had gone to her for apprenticeship when she was capable. Hetero men submitted to her, and when she released them they could call themselves master, if they so desired, EVEN if they were submissive. A butch woman was proud that she had been Mistress Carol's last contract. I was sad and sorry that I came along too late to have much contact this extraordinary master.

You're describing exactly the relationship of a leather friend of mine in which he was contracted as a slave for one-year and then released to take on a slave of his own.

If you, Stella, are steeped in the idea of submissives as apprentices, then it totally makes sense that you would think the hetero practice of D/s was locking the submissive into a "less than" status.

What I see is the main body of hetero practice does lock submissives into a 'less than" status. It is not what I think. It's what I see. And your leather friend wasn't expecting a marriage or simulation thereof. He wanted to learn some skills. In the hottest way possible.

I don't see it that way. I don't think the submissive party in a hetero couple is in any way "less than" the dominant one. I'll admit there are a lot of people who are hoping to find an easy way out of the difficult job of being a grown-up by adopting a submissive role in a D/s relationship. From the evidence on these boards and in the community, those relationships don't seem to last, though.

There, you've done it again.

Of course they don't last. But that doesn't mean that's not the majority practice.

Being submissive in my relationship does not, in any way whatsoever, imply that I have less power to take action, speak my mind, or be an engaged participant in the life I am living. Instead, it allows me to feel comfortable taking the "right-hand man" position as a viable option.

Again, this is more in line with the old guard way of thinking than it is with general heteronormative ideas. I'm glad to see it.

Obviously, I'm not scrambling to the top of any ladder, nor bumping against a glass ceiling (I fully support the women who want to do that). I just don't want to feel ashamed of my desires to be in that position. Nor do I want that position to be dismissed or minimized by people who don't want to be there.

yeah, I really adore the sensation of that glass flattening my scalp. That's what I want!

FFS, I don't WANT to bump my head against a glass ceiling. It isn't a choice.

Likewise understand this, I'm not the one minimising you, your hetero community does that. That's your glass ceiling.

 

[eastern sun]

There, you've done it again.

What did I do? I'm not understanding. . . .

yeah, I really adore the sensation of that glass flattening my scalp. That's what I want!

FFS, I don't WANT to bump my head against a glass ceiling. It isn't a choice.

Likewise understand this, I'm not the one minimising you, your hetero community does that. That's your glass ceiling.

And, yes, that was a poorly constructed phrase. I have lots of friends who climb those corporate ladders. I respect their aspirations and accomplishments. And that's where my parenthetical phrase belonged - after the first half of the sentence . . . not after the second which was more meant to communicate my frustration with "how things are in the corporate world" than to imply that the desire was to bump heads with that glass.

Stella, to be quite frank - though you do not intend to minimize me - I feel far smaller in your eyes than I do in my hetero community. And you do speak much more dismissively of women who choose to call themselves "submissive" than most others in these conversations.