A question regarding punishment

[cfuhrer]

I think this discussion has become complicated.

I think we've dovetailed. Not a full on hi-jacking, just a fork in the road.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I can see the benefit of these protocols, but it does take away the opportunity for the slave to say "only if it pleases you" without sending up red flags. And I have said that - or a version of it - many times. It can be a wonderful emotional experience.

Then you and your partner would set up a different set of phrases.

 

[eastern sun]

I think this discussion has become complicated. i did somethign wrong. Something he had expressly told me not to do. I admitted it. He explained why he was angry and the finer points of what i did wrong . I understood. I apoligised. He said he needed me to know how angry he was about it.

We are in a LDR . He options are limited. This is the punishmnet he chose. It conflicts with my opinion of consent and discussion. I was upset. It set off thoughts of what ifs.

He is not a sadist. He is the most caring man i have ever met. He had reassured me that he would be back and I believe him, but I still worry.

Human Nature? Submissive Nature?

Thats it in a nutshell.

Forgive me, kimuk. I never meant to imply that he was a sadist. I've been moving into a broader discussion in my comments, and perhaps this is not the place to do it.

 

[eastern sun]

Then you and your partner would set up a different set of phrases.

Yep.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yep.

then the same principle applies.

(sorry, not so good a sense of humor today)

 

[welkin]

Ohhh. I was more indignant because I thought there was not much discussion before the "punishment", that it was sprung on kim without any preparation...

Nonetheless, I personally don't agree with this form of punishment. I shall take sadistic pleasure in that kim's dom is hopefully suffering from the same silence, at least it goes both ways...

*quits meddling.

 

[kimuk]

I feel I have opened up a "can of worms" with my original question. And the thread has deviated. But thats one of the reasons why i love this place. Everyone's different opinions and ideals are facinating.

Just goes to show - one size dosen't fit all ?

i supose its about negoitiation. I felt cheated out of that.

Sulky sub?

Now where did I put my L plates?

Hopefully it will be a spring board for dicussion with my Sir and we can use it to lay the path for any other punishments ........which will hopefully be few and far between.

 

[the captians wench]

Well hes entitled to express himself in the way he sees fit . My anger has subsided . I just hope it dosent change things in the long term.

And the options in LDR are very limited. I respect his decision.

I have found that a lot of people use LDR as an excuse to be accepting of using "no contact" as a punishment.

Maybe it's different for people that "chat" all day long, but I find it lazy and damaging.

Now he's had me do corner time, which is a form of this I suppose, as it is time that I could be talking to him but instead I'm standing off on my own while he watches, but if he ever said to me "since you disappointed me in this way, I'm not going to speak to you for x amount of days" I'd be pissed. I'd call red, and I don't think I'd be able to continue with that relationship. It just wouldn't work out for the reasons you said, I'd be too tempted to not tell him about things I thought might upset him. And I'm a terrible liar.

But our time is limited anyway. It's not uncommon for us to go a few days with out contact. Our schedules just don't always match up with the time difference.

 

[kimuk]

""""I'd be too tempted to not tell him about things I thought might upset him. And I'm a terrible liar. """"

Excatly!!!!!

Thats what I'm worried about . I'll censor my answers and behaviour because I won't want the same reaction again!

Thats one of the reasons i was soooooo p___d off! It seems to defeat the object.

But I would never write him off for this, I'm a fighter if nothing else. I think it will be something we have to agree about because of the damage it causes.

 

[the captians wench]

""""I'd be too tempted to not tell him about things I thought might upset him. And I'm a terrible liar. """"

Excatly!!!!!

Thats what I'm worried about . I'll censor my answers and behaviour because I won't want the same reaction again!

Thats one of the reasons i was soooooo p___d off! It seems to defeat the object.

But I would never write him off for this, I'm a fighter if nothing else. I think it will be something we have to agree about because of the damage it causes.

I'm very upfront with my issues when I meet some one, even when I have entertained playmates. They knew I have abandonment issues, and cutting off contact with me as a punishment is not on the table. Just as any other hard limits.

That's the reason I would end a relationship where he insisted this was the only way things would work, because it wouldn't work.

I'm not saying that you should drop him. I really hope things work out for you. I hope you can comunicate and grow from this. I just know that it wouldn't work in my life.

 

[eastern sun]

then the same principle applies.

of course. but . . . nuances. nuances.

ultimately, it's all we've got to differentiate ourselves.

 

[Etoile]

Ohhh. I was more indignant because I thought there was not much discussion before the "punishment", that it was sprung on kim without any preparation.

Which is why I said it was better to ride out the punishment and then discuss it. Solely for that reason. It was not a surprise.

I still find starting the thread with the INTENT of him finding it manipulative. Even if it's to get help. But that little voice saying "I need help, and by golly I hope he sees that I'm suffering and looking for support" - that's manipulation in my book. I don't fault kim for it at all. But I still find it manipulative. Understandably so, but no less so.

 

[kimuk]

Which is why I said it was better to ride out the punishment and then discuss it. Solely for that reason. It was not a surprise.

I still find starting the thread with the INTENT of him finding it manipulative. Even if it's to get help. But that little voice saying "I need help, and by golly I hope he sees that I'm suffering and looking for support" - that's manipulation in my book. I don't fault kim for it at all. But I still find it manipulative. Understandably so, but no less so.

point taken

 

[ecstaticsub]

""""I'd be too tempted to not tell him about things I thought might upset him. And I'm a terrible liar. """"

Excatly!!!!!

Thats what I'm worried about . I'll censor my answers and behaviour because I won't want the same reaction again!

Thats one of the reasons i was soooooo p___d off! It seems to defeat the object.

But I would never write him off for this, I'm a fighter if nothing else. I think it will be something we have to agree about because of the damage it causes.

You should be censoring your behavior. Perhaps this punishment has worked. You should be censoring your behavior to make sure this never happens again.

Punishment is not suppose to be fun. Real punishment is not something we masturbate to or get aroused by. (well, some of us might) Actions have consequences, disobedience can have serious consequences. I do not have the right to decide what my punishment will be. Like I said earlier my Daddy does not use silence as a punishment but sometimes no contact happened as a result of my actions as a way to make both myself and him calm down. I know for a fact he did not enjoy the lack of contact either.

But I learned from the different situations to obey and if I had difficulty obeying disobedience was NOT an option. I discuss the issue respectfully with him before, not after.

I advise you to learn from your mistake and control your impulses to make sure he isn't tempted to put you in time out again.

 

[welkin]

I disagree with ecstatic. As with any other relationship, you can communicate a point without making the other person's life miserable. I believe expressing displeasure is sufficient; if the person repeats the offense, then either the partner doesn't mean that much to them, or they have a real need to do whatever it is and should be discussed. Just because it "worked" and now Kim is disincentivized to repeat the same thing does NOT justify the usage in the first place.

The dom has no right to punish or demand perfect obedience, unless the sub turns over the power willingly. There is an entire gradient from being a slave to outright topping from bottom. The vibe I'm getting from Kim is that she is still figuring things out and reconciling things internally. She needs time to decide what she will let her dom do to her. The sub trains the dom as much as the sub is trained by the dom, so to speak.


Once again, for most people bdsm is about sex and having fun. If one party isn't getting a kick out of it, then there is a problem to be addressed.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I disagree with ecstatic. As with any other relationship, you can communicate a point without making the other person's life miserable. I believe expressing displeasure is sufficient; if the person repeats the offense, then either the partner doesn't mean that much to them, or they have a real need to do whatever it is and should be discussed. Just because it "worked" and now Kim is disincentivized to repeat the same thing does NOT justify the usage in the first place.

The dom has no right to punish or demand perfect obedience, unless the sub turns over the power willingly. There is an entire gradient from being a slave to outright topping from bottom. The vibe I'm getting from Kim is that she is still figuring things out and reconciling things internally. She needs time to decide what she will let her dom do to her. The sub trains the dom as much as the sub is trained by the dom, so to speak.


Once again, for most people bdsm is about sex and having fun. If one party isn't getting a kick out of it, then there is a problem to be addressed.

As with everything else it will depend on the relationship. When I think back to the first two years of my present relationship there were some very difficult times, especially in the first year. I wouldn't call it training as much as the two of us learning about each other and learning boundaries,limits, tempers, personalities.

A dominant can not expect perfect obedience but he/she has the right to want it. A dominant then has the right to do what is necessary to make obedience is taken seriously.

I can only speak for myself of course, but I am grateful for the difficult times. I want to be obedient. I am the content, devoted, ecstatic submissive I am today because of those difficult first trials.

It is a power exchange relationship. If i didn't want to learn how to be obedient that way he wanted me to be, I would have stayed vanilla or found someone else.

 

[Lilac_Sky]

As with everything else it will depend on the relationship. When I think back to the first two years of my present relationship there were some very difficult times, especially in the first year. I wouldn't call it training as much as the two of us learning about each other and learning boundaries,limits, tempers, personalities.

A dominant can not expect perfect obedience but he/she has the right to want it. A dominant then has the right to do what is necessary to make obedience is taken seriously.

I can only speak for myself of course, but I am grateful for the difficult times. I want to be obedient. I am the content, devoted, ecstatic submissive I am today because of those difficult first trials.

It is a power exchange relationship. If i didn't want to learn how to be obedient that way he wanted me to be, I would have stayed vanilla or found someone else.

Well said, Ecstatic. I agree with you completely. Mistress's pleasure is my priority. I try to obey her always and expect that if I make a mistake, she will teach me to fix it. If I deliberately disobey her, I would expect to be punished.

I am a mother of 2 young teenagers and I have to say that imposing consequences or
punishments (sigh, we could get into an entirely different debate there, but that would further muddy the waters) breaks my heart! I have had to take away meaningful things or privileges and I think I wanted to cry as hard as each child did. But if it is an important lesson to be taught, the punishment needs to carry comparable weight to that lesson.

One of the things that has interested me throughout this thread (and I have been watching each development ) is the perspectives of the posters seem to be completely dependent upon how they identify in D/s relationships. Eastern_Sun, ecstaticsub and I seem to be in similar relationships and see our roles in much the same way and seem to view kim's situation similarly. *pause* Yet it is further interesting to me, that the three of us are not the stereotypical mindless, robotic, doormat, stepford-wives subs with domineering, cruel, heartless, selfish PYLs that seem to be a common stereotype.

 

[welkin]

Yes, but your way is not the only way. I want Kim to voice it for herself whether she wants to be perfectly obedient. (and before then, I want to err on the less demanding side.)

I also speak out of the concern that sometimes I feel anything less than 100% obedience is labeled as being a "brat" or "lacking" and is frowned upon. But I feel there are more people like me, in that sometimes I want to be obedient, but other times I want to be a complete equal, and even want to prevail from time to time... Just as the sub learns how to please the dom, the dom should also make concessions and try to meet the sub halfway.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yet it is further interesting to me, that the three of us are not the stereotypical mindless, robotic, doormat, stepford-wives subs with domineering, cruel, heartless, selfish PYLs that seem to be a common stereotype.

Well, I don't know about your PYLs being mean and heartless, but happy submissive women will call up a Stepford vibe to the rest of us-- who are not always happy, and find ourselves in daily negotiations, not to mention outright battles-- in our relationships.

I think that simply knowing, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what your role is, what you and he are responsible for-- is the biggest boon for D/s couples. It isn't the D, or the s. It's simply the clear cuts.

 

[kimuk]

On the day we met I was perfectly obediant. I think in 24/7 relationships obediance is much easier ,when your in a couple relationship, when your live togeather or are married.
Obediance for me is harder as theres distance involved. E mails and text messages convey written words but there is now infelection, no body language. Meanings, importance, strenght of feeling and emphasis can be easily misunderstood.
I seek to be obediant but I have to understand why the request/instruction is important to him. Once i have clarity then obediance is natural. If I make him happy then I'm happy. If its not clear or the importance is not emphasised then it easy to slip up.

Does that make sense? i know what I'm trying to say but not sure I'm making any sense except to my self.

Any way I had to hear his voice to make sure everything was alright. He texted me 2 mins after midnight to put me out of my misery. I spoke to him on the phone an hour or so ago.I'm reassured that its sorted. He dosent hold grudges. He says it is all behind us.

But I neeeded to hear him say it

Will it happen again? I think of us as a partnership but I also want him to have the final say in things. So although I kicked and screamed and stamped my feet about the silent treatment it has reinforced the point that actually he is in charge, when he says something he means it, , for a very good reason and he wont be persuaded otherwise. Or manipulated to change his mind , as i was acused of.

And that is a valuable lesson .

 

[txblush]

Well, I don't know about your PYLs being mean and heartless, but happy submissive women will call up a Stepford vibe to the rest of us-- who are not always happy, and find ourselves in daily negotiations, not to mention outright battles-- in our relationships.
I think that simply knowing, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what your role is, what you and he are responsible for-- is the biggest boon for D/s couples. It isn't the D, or the s. It's simply the clear cuts.

I may be wrong for butting in where I don't belong because I have never experienced a D/s relationship, but I have been married for more than half my life to a man who is a Dominant in personality. I can attest to the havoc that has played out over the years of our relationship when silence was used as a means for cooler heads and the need for rational discussion, but it also created emotional issues for both of us because consideration for who the we are and what we are willing or not willing to do and how we think and feel wasn't at the heart of communication. And no matter how painful it was for me to suffer through the many silent moments in our relationship I want him to be happy because he matters to me. He shaped my life and I shaped his. We are not the same people we once were, I want what is best for him and I know he wants that for me. It isn't enough to just communicate, listening is also required.

To the OP you've been given a wonderful opportunity and a lot of sound advice. Use it to help you grow.

 

[intothewoods]

Well, I don't know about your PYLs being mean and heartless, but happy submissive women will call up a Stepford vibe to the rest of us-- who are not always happy, and find ourselves in daily negotiations, not to mention outright battles-- in our relationships.

Perpetually or robotically happy submissive women, sure, but that's not how I would describe the day-in day-out submissives I know from this board.

I think that simply knowing, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what your role is, what you and he are responsible for-- is the biggest boon for D/s couples. It isn't the D, or the s. It's simply the clear cuts.

But this is not sustainable in a long term, 24/7 relationship. I mean, there will be negotiation, and there will be shifts in terms of responsibilities, power, etc.

On the day we met I was perfectly obediant. I think in 24/7 relationships obediance is much easier ,when your in a couple relationship, when your live togeather or are married.
Obediance for me is harder as theres distance involved. E mails and text messages convey written words but there is now infelection, no body language. Meanings, importance, strenght of feeling and emphasis can be easily misunderstood.
I seek to be obediant but I have to understand why the request/instruction is important to him. Once i have clarity then obediance is natural. If I make him happy then I'm happy. If its not clear or the importance is not emphasised then it easy to slip up.

Does that make sense? i know what I'm trying to say but not sure I'm making any sense except to my self.

Any way I had to hear his voice to make sure everything was alright. He texted me 2 mins after midnight to put me out of my misery. I spoke to him on the phone an hour or so ago.I'm reassured that its sorted. He dosent hold grudges. He says it is all behind us.

But I neeeded to hear him say it

Will it happen again? I think of us as a partnership but I also want him to have the final say in things. So although I kicked and screamed and stamped my feet about the silent treatment it has reinforced the point that actually he is in charge, when he says something he means it, , for a very good reason and he wont be persuaded otherwise. Or manipulated to change his mind , as i was acused of.

And that is a valuable lesson .

Obedience isn't easier, it's just different. It's not all hot and bothered drama. Sometimes it's boring or unpleasant.

 

[Etoile]

BTW, it's now Wednesday - if you think of it, kim, let us know what happened!

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

BTW, it's now Wednesday - if you think of it, kim, let us know what happened!

Psst. Look three posts up.

 

[CutieMouse]

You should be censoring your behavior. Perhaps this punishment has worked. You should be censoring your behavior to make sure this never happens again.

Punishment is not suppose to be fun. Real punishment is not something we masturbate to or get aroused by. (well, some of us might) Actions have consequences, disobedience can have serious consequences. I do not have the right to decide what my punishment will be. Like I said earlier my Daddy does not use silence as a punishment but sometimes no contact happened as a result of my actions as a way to make both myself and him calm down. I know for a fact he did not enjoy the lack of contact either.

But I learned from the different situations to obey and if I had difficulty obeying disobedience was NOT an option. I discuss the issue respectfully with him before, not after.

I advise you to learn from your mistake and control your impulses to make sure he isn't tempted to put you in time out again.

I disagree with ecstatic. As with any other relationship, you can communicate a point without making the other person's life miserable. I believe expressing displeasure is sufficient; if the person repeats the offense, then either the partner doesn't mean that much to them, or they have a real need to do whatever it is and should be discussed. Just because it "worked" and now Kim is disincentivized to repeat the same thing does NOT justify the usage in the first place.

Welkin, I didn't see ES saying to censor communication. She suggested censoring behavior [actions]. Those are two totally different animals [communication/behavior], in my book.

On the day we met I was perfectly obedient. I think in 24/7 relationships obedience is much easier ,when your in a couple relationship, when your live together or are married.

Mmmmm... I'd have to disagree with that. Because when living with someone, you have to deal with all the nit picky house/bills/cat barfing on the rug/last minute demands of work type complications that IMO are easier to ignore/work around when D/s is being lived by email/phone/text/net. Yes all those annoying life-issues are still there in a LDR, but they aren't as obvious.

Obedience for me is harder as there's distance involved. E mails and text messages convey written words but there is now inflection, no body language. Meanings, importance, strength of feeling and emphasis can be easily misunderstood.
I seek to be obedient but I have to understand why the request/instruction is important to him. Once i have clarity then obedience is natural. If I make him happy then I'm happy. If its not clear or the importance is not emphasized then it easy to slip up.

Does that make sense? i know what I'm trying to say but not sure I'm making any sense except to my self.

The only part that doesn't make sense to me, is the belief that face to face 24/7 submission somehow avoids the issues listed above. 24/7 face to face still offers PLENTY of opportunities to misunderstand one another, or simply not "get" why a PYL wants something done, or even just have one of those days where submissive perfection is about as likely as eating ice cream on Saturn.

Any way I had to hear his voice to make sure everything was alright. He texted me 2 mins after midnight to put me out of my misery. I spoke to him on the phone an hour or so ago.I'm reassured that its sorted. He doesn't hold grudges. He says it is all behind us.

But I needed to hear him say it.

Will it happen again? I think of us as a partnership but I also want him to have the final say in things. So although I kicked and screamed and stamped my feet about the silent treatment it has reinforced the point that actually he is in charge, when he says something he means it, , for a very good reason and he wont be persuaded otherwise. Or manipulated to change his mind , as i was accused of.

And that is a valuable lesson .

Good to hear, but I can't figure out from this little snippet if you discussed silence as punishment in the future along with the possibility of removing it from the "punishment arsenal". It's awesome that he says it's behind y'all, but just because he says it is, doesn't mean you'll automatically [emotionally] follow suit.