A question regarding punishment

[Stella_Omega]

What did I do? I'm not understanding. . . .

You say that "submissive" doesn't mean"lesser or more infantile" in your life. But at the very same time, you point out that it DOES seem to mean that in the larger community:

It never even occurred to me that submissiveness and lack of responsibility do coincide for many until I started looking into other people's lives through boards, munches, parties and such.

and:
Yes, I know that my notion of what submissive is doesn't match that of the majority's,

and:
I'll admit there are a lot of people who are hoping to find an easy way out of the difficult job of being a grown-up by adopting a submissive role in a D/s relationship.

If these things don't fit you-- kudos, truly! But be aware that you're a minority.

And you do speak much more dismissively of women who choose to call themselves "submissive" than most others in these conversations.

Yes, I do in general, and your very own bolded quotes explain why.

 

[Keroin]

You say that "submissive" doesn't mean"lesser or more infantile" in your life. But at the very same time, you point out that it DOES seem to mean that in the larger community:

It never even occurred to me that submissiveness and lack of responsibility do coincide for many until I started looking into other people's lives through boards, munches, parties and such.

and:
Yes, I know that my notion of what submissive is doesn't match that of the majority's,

and:
I'll admit there are a lot of people who are hoping to find an easy way out of the difficult job of being a grown-up by adopting a submissive role in a D/s relationship.

If these things don't fit you-- kudos, truly! But be aware that you're a minority.
Yes, I do in general, and your very own bolded quotes explain why.

Stella, the first two quotes were from Seela, not ES. Just FYI.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, the first two quotes were from Seela, not ES. Just FYI.

Oh, arrgh fuck. So sorry! I lose the internets.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

...
I don't see it that way. I don't think the submissive party in a hetero couple is in any way "less than" the dominant one. I'll admit there are a lot of people who are hoping to find an easy way out of the difficult job of being a grown-up by adopting a submissive role in a D/s relationship. From the evidence on these boards and in the community, those relationships don't seem to last, though. ...

Heh. That's where and how I'm actually learning the difficult job of being a grown up.

 

[J D Danger]

I don't know how certain Dom's can enforce that kind of punishment and be firm on it. When I care about a certain someone and love them very much I cannot go more than a day without at least saying one word.

How long is the punishment supposed to last?

I know I am late into the thread...but I just wanted to say I feel the same as the poster above...I hardly ever do no contact punishment because...not only does it cause fear and damages trust but it alo hurts both of us because I miss the cared for submissive

 

[avrgblkgrl]

Heh. That's where and how I'm actually learning the difficult job of being a grown up.

For Real!!!!

 

[eastern sun]

Heh. That's where and how I'm actually learning the difficult job of being a grown up.

. . . .

 

[cfuhrer]

@kimuk, as I recall from your earlier threads, your partner has an account here at Lit. So my question to you is this: do you think that it's helping or hurting your relationship to be discussing this issue in a public forum? Because he almost certainly will have read this thread by the time the two of you are back in touch.

(Let me say that I did read Kim's response before posting this and midwestyankee did make a valid point but this is my thought on MWY's point)
I would profer this thought. No contact goes both ways, its as much on Him as it is on kim. If He says there's to be no contact and He see's she started a thread, its on him to stay the eff out of it. To me its no different than if a PYL and pyl lived in the same city and them both showing up at the same coffee shop was considered "contact"

 

[welkin]

I'll admit there are a lot of people who are hoping to find an easy way out of the difficult job of being a grown-up by adopting a submissive role in a D/s relationship. From the evidence on these boards and in the community, those relationships don't seem to last, though.

I wonder what kind of partner they end up getting. I mean, taking care of oneself is hard enough, who'd want the extra burden of full responsibility for another grownup?

 

[HottieMama]

I wonder what kind of partner they end up getting. I mean, taking care of oneself is hard enough, who'd want the extra burden of full responsibility for another grownup?

Apparently some "Doms" do. I have met more than my share that want a "mindless sheep" more than they want a capable, responsible, educated submissive.

 

[GrimsPet]

And THIS is what I have a problem with in a nutshell. This type of punishment creates doubt (for me). Doubt creates fear. Fear creates lack of trust. Lack of trust, for ME, means the relationship is over...

I agree.
I go for days at a time without hearing from Master due to situations on his end, but I KNOW and expect those periods of time and they aren't done in punishment.

I trust Master to be a lot more creative in his punishments of me should he feel the need to do so. So far I really haven't done much in our relationship that warrants punishment. A few stern words are typically all it takes and I know I've done wrong - and I don't do it again.

I think shutting off contact as punishment would hurt the BOTH of us, and it's something that I would not tolerate.

 

[Etoile]

And you Sir have hit the nail right on the head. I started the thread when I was angry. When , in my opinion he had overreacted and was exerting his power to prove a point. Yes I absolutly know he will read it and that maybe he already has.
So on looking at my motives - communication was cut off. I used the thread as a way to show him I was upset about what I he had done and that I saw it as the wrong solution to the problem. A public display of my hurt?
My biggest problem is that I tend to act on impluse. I act and then think about the consequences later. I don't analyse what the outcome will be. Just raw emotion. I felt angry. I was hurt.
When communication is withdrawn then you start to have all kinds of fears. Is he doing this because he wants this to be over and this is the oveture to it? Have I done so much damage to the realationship that there is no going back? Will he ever trust me again?
It breeds doubt and fear.
So as I cannot talk to him I posted here. Impulsively.
I often make mistakes , its a new experiance for me , I need learner plates on me. I need explicit explanations. I need to understand completely before I accept. I need to think before I act. I'm very aware of my failings.
In his defence ......punishment has never been on the agenda before. He is a fair , honest , considerate , even tempered , balanced Dom. I have the upmost respect for him. I couldn't ask for more.
Will my knee jerk reaction make the situation worse? Will he be even more angry because I sort help here? I hope not.
But as most things in life time will tell and I hope ( if I've judged him right) we can use it as a means of sorting things out .
I have learn't however that the thing he told me not to do was for my own protection as much as his. That he told me not to do it, not just because he could but for a very good reason. He was trying to protect me and I didnt listen to him.
For that I am truely sorry.

My hope is that he has used this thread as a bit of a way to rethink his own choice of using no-contact as a punishment. Maybe he will decide it was a good idea after all, or maybe he will decide he shouldn't do it again.

Either way, yes, you were probably being manipulative by starting the thread with the knowledge and expectation that he would see it. I can't see that being manipulative would be a good thing, but I think if you were genuinely seeking feedback on the situation, that would be okay.

My take on the situation is that you should wait out the punishment before questioning it. After it's over, definitely talk about it. But for now, you are supposed to be suffering the consequences of no-contact, so suffer them and repent - then talk about it.

 

[welkin]

I wouldn't call this "manipulative"... After all, wanting to vent is completely understandable and even natural, and not everyone has real-life support that they can go to when suffering from bdsm-related anxieties and doubts. It's a sensitive subject, and lit happens to be a great place to discuss.

On taking the punishment: It really depends on who you are and what you want out of the relationship, as well as how you wish to shape it for the future. There are people who advised you to bear the "consequence", there are others who think such orders are harmful (and I'd personally add, one should never obey an unjust order). And no one way is necessarily wrong and the other way is right. Don't be pressured by either. It's a personal choice, do what really makes you happy, that's what counts ultimately.

 

[Etoile]

I wouldn't call this "manipulative"... After all, wanting to vent is completely understandable and even natural, and not everyone has real-life support that they can go to when suffering from bdsm-related anxieties and doubts. It's a sensitive subject, and lit happens to be a great place to discuss.

I agree, but there's this:

So on looking at my motives - communication was cut off. I used the thread as a way to show him I was upset about what I he had done and that I saw it as the wrong solution to the problem. A public display of my hurt?

The whole thing, but the bolded part in particular - I consider that being manipulative.

Of course, we've all done it - I've done it more than I care to admit - so being manipulative is only human, especially in the face of being hurt.

 

[kimuk]

I agree, but there's this:



The whole thing, but the bolded part in particular - I consider that being manipulative.

Of course, we've all done it - I've done it more than I care to admit - so being manipulative is only human, especially in the face of being hurt.

And I understand my faults more than anyone else Etiole. Have I made the situation better or worse by having an opinion? Should I just shut up and wait? A mindless robot or someone who hurts and needed a platform to vent , to seek help , to see if others agreed or did not.

Its after all a learning curve and I consider what everyone has to say on the matter as I'm sure he will.

Should a sub not question then? should she not seek advice? is her pain unimportant? Should she just sit it out and not seek advice? I dont consider it manipulation , although I have been acused of the same thing in the past. I have no one I can talk to about this, There are so many here with lots of experiance and many with strong opinions. Is it wrong to start a debate and then pick out the lessons which are applicable to me?

When I started it i was looking for help not to make him feel guilty . I needed to tell someone how I felt. If you Dom withdraws his support , weather its for an excellent reson or not , who do you turn to for guidance?

I picked here.

 

[welkin]

I think this just goes to show a real relationship is much more complicated than you think. We get so excited when we discuss our boundaries of how much pain we can take, what kind of bondage we like, etc., but often we forget the unpleasantries and therefore leave them out, such as what happens when one breaks a promise, what punishment (if any) are in order -- who fantasizes about that?!

It's always a work in progress, you find answers and continue to negotiate as you go.

Just to end with my spiel on punishment: For me, the only acceptable punishment (not play) should really be for the benefit of the bottom, giving them a clean slate and letting them know the offense has been forgiven. So it should really be given out after the discussion, not before.

I disagree with a top's need to use punishment to "make a point". I once was discussing punishment with a dom and asking him what he gets as punishment if he does something wrong. His answer was "the disappointment and shame that I have failed her". Well, I think thats the case with everyone, both doms and subs. If the sub truly cared about the Dom, a simple "I am unhappy that you did this" would suffice, and knowing something they did had hurt or disappointed the other person ought to be enough reminder in itself so the sub will not make the same mistake again.

Besides, isn't it better to have someone submit to you because they really want to please you, and not because they fear the silence or the caning or what have you?

Alas, I may be idealizing...

 

[Stella_Omega]

Seems to me, one of the attractions to a D/s relationship, would be that security. You fuck up, you take your punishment, it's OVER.

Unlike un-negotiated relationships, where the resentment and overspill can drag on for years.

Perhaps related, during Sunday's talk, Master Rob explained the protocol he uses when a sub or slave wants or needs to say "no."

"Sir, yes Sir" is obviously a Yes.
"If it pleases you, Sir" is a qualified no, meaning that the sub would like to carry out the order but there's something in the way-- like for instance a prior order.
"ONLY if it pleases you Sir" is an unqualified NO. It means that if the Dom insists, they might see their sub take off the collar and walk away. Everything had better stop then and there whilst the couple figure it out.

 

[cfuhrer]

"Sir, yes Sir" is obviously a Yes.
"If it pleases you, Sir" is a qualified no, meaning that the sub would like to carry out the order but there's something in the way-- like for instance a prior order.
"ONLY if it pleases you Sir" is an unqualified NO. It means that if the Dom insists, they might see their sub take off the collar and walk away. Everything had better stop then and there whilst the couple figure it out.

Those are awesome!! May have to have a talk with Mine about incorporating those.

 

[welkin]

Which is why I said punishment ought to be after and not before the discussion, as clearly in this case it gave kimuk not a sense of security but insecurity. This to me is bad negotiation... to put it in kind terms.

 

[eastern sun]

I think this just goes to show a real relationship is much more complicated than you think. We get so excited when we discuss our boundaries of how much pain we can take, what kind of bondage we like, etc., but often we forget the unpleasantries and therefore leave them out, such as what happens when one breaks a promise, what punishment (if any) are in order -- who fantasizes about that?!

It's always a work in progress, you find answers and continue to negotiate as you go.

Just to end with my spiel on punishment: For me, the only acceptable punishment (not play) should really be for the benefit of the bottom, giving them a clean slate and letting them know the offense has been forgiven. So it should really be given out after the discussion, not before.

I disagree with a top's need to use punishment to "make a point". I once was discussing punishment with a dom and asking him what he gets as punishment if he does something wrong. His answer was "the disappointment and shame that I have failed her". Well, I think thats the case with everyone, both doms and subs. If the sub truly cared about the Dom, a simple "I am unhappy that you did this" would suffice, and knowing something they did had hurt or disappointed the other person ought to be enough reminder in itself so the sub will not make the same mistake again.

Besides, isn't it better to have someone submit to you because they really want to please you, and not because they fear the silence or the caning or what have you?

Alas, I may be idealizing...

Punishment can serve a whole lot of purposes. A sadist may actually be enjoying the fact that you feel like shit and are squirming all over your own emotional landscape. A Dom/me might be asserting authority that s/he feels hasn't been respected. A Master or Mistress might be training you. And any of them could also be simply expressing their anger and frustration at your behavior.

Most people don't fantasize about the things they really hate. Which might be feelings of rejection and loneliness, far more frightening than the petty humiliation of standing in the corner with a dunce cap.

So many people get turned on by "doing what the Master/Mistress told me to do" in an online chat or phone call, they sign up for real life 24/7 obedience.

It's a real wake-up call when the unpleasantness starts. Most of us aren't really obedient all the time. It can be a challenge for any relationship that has used obedience as an defining element. For both parties.

 

[eastern sun]

Seems to me, one of the attractions to a D/s relationship, would be that security. You fuck up, you take your punishment, it's OVER.

Unlike un-negotiated relationships, where the resentment and overspill can drag on for years.

I think you're right. What's frightening in this case is that it's a first punishment. She has no tangible evidence, yet, that he will return and it will be over.

 

[HottieMama]

Seems to me, one of the attractions to a D/s relationship, would be that security. You fuck up, you take your punishment, it's OVER.

You are talking about a "perfect world" scenario, right??

Unlike un-negotiated relationships, where the resentment and overspill can drag on for years.

I have found this to happen more often than not, no matter what the dynamic. Punishement does not eliminate resentment for either party,, IMO.

 

[welkin]

So many people get turned on by "doing what the Master/Mistress told me to do" in an online chat or phone call, they sign up for real life 24/7 obedience.

It's a real wake-up call when the unpleasantness starts. Most of us aren't really obedient all the time. It can be a challenge for any relationship that has used obedience as an defining element. For both parties.

Very true. I don't mean to invalidate your experience -- it amazes me how you handle your role as a slave, but that IS a minority even within bdsm. So for the rest of us, we need to accept ourselves, that it's ok to admit we don't live up to our own fantasies, it's ok to fail to be a slave.

 

[eastern sun]

Perhaps related, during Sunday's talk, Master Rob explained the protocol he uses when a sub or slave wants or needs to say "no."

"Sir, yes Sir" is obviously a Yes.
"If it pleases you, Sir" is a qualified no, meaning that the sub would like to carry out the order but there's something in the way-- like for instance a prior order.
"ONLY if it pleases you Sir" is an unqualified NO. It means that if the Dom insists, they might see their sub take off the collar and walk away. Everything had better stop then and there whilst the couple figure it out.

I can see the benefit of these protocols, but it does take away the opportunity for the slave to say "only if it pleases you" without sending up red flags. And I have said that - or a version of it - many times. It can be a wonderful emotional experience.

 

[kimuk]

I think this discussion has become complicated. i did somethign wrong. Something he had expressly told me not to do. I admitted it. He explained why he was angry and the finer points of what i did wrong . I understood. I apoligised. He said he needed me to know how angry he was about it.

We are in a LDR . He options are limited. This is the punishmnet he chose. It conflicts with my opinion of consent and discussion. I was upset. It set off thoughts of what ifs.

He is not a sadist. He is the most caring man i have ever met. He had reassured me that he would be back and I believe him, but I still worry.

Human Nature? Submissive Nature?

Thats it in a nutshell.