A Question of Freedom and Tolerance for Others Sexuality

[Rolly]

Hello Everyone,
Here is a question for you;
Should we not all be more accepting and tolerant of others sexual activities?
Here are the parameters;
Any sex between anyone, who is an adult, and consenting with no coercion or duress of any kind.
If strong emotional love is present all the better.
No children or underage teenagers.

This would cover the activities of male/ male female/female and all types of incest.

Is not just our own limits in society that say; well I will accept this type of relationship, but not that? Also here at Literotica of all places, should there not be more impartiality displayed?

Without this idea, we as a group might be reduced to heterosexuals that only copulate on Saturday nights between the hours of 9:15 PM and 10:40 PM with the male on top and no grunting or any noise from either partner.

One other bonus of being more broad-minded about peoples sexual actives and preferences is; that when you see the numerous posts like:

I have been screwing my niece for three years and it’s great and she is Chinese and I am African American. Or I have been giving my aunt oral sex on the bus at two in the morning with everyone not inebriated, watching – what do yaa’all’ think?

Our tolerance will remove the shock value of the above type of post and everyone will go, yes seen it, heard it, no big deal – then laugh a bit. "Gosh" all their shock value is gone and I bet you would see far fewer of this type of silly posting.

There are some posts made and designed to shock, and it seems part of the Literotica fans and their responses, play directly into that hand and thus encourage it more.

One last idea to consider is personal freedom. The freedom to choose your partner and your right to privacy. I think it was Uncle Bill, whom mentioned that oral sex was again the law in California, or was that anal sex in Montana. Why worry about what adults do in their bedrooms as long as they are both willing. The only thing I’m willing to concede is that I many not be interested in discussing some actives, but that should also be everyone’s right.


Remember there have been many very successful societies that have had sexual norms much different than our.


Thinking about this,
Jane

 

[Silverlily]

I agree with the tolerant aspect. There are some sexual situations I will never be able to accept, but that does not mean they are wrong for everyone. My choices apply only to me. This is the one place everyone should feel free to be open about their sexuality within the confines of legality and site rules. What takes place between consenting adults is up to them.

On that note, I also think this is a place people should be able to come and discuss problems without feeling shame. Things go wrong, it happens to everyone. To be able to ask, "This happened to me, what should I do?" without fear of being told it's the poster's fault, is a rare commodity.

I may not like your fetish, you may not like mine, but we can agree to be committed to the idea of enhancing sexual pleasure for everyone.

 

[SeXy ReDHeD]

I do agree with the idea of tolerance on a legal level; the law should have no jurisdiction in the bedroom, I think this is obvious.

But I do not necessarily agree with it on a "moral" level. I'm not saying that it is morally okay to be intolerant, just that this sort of intolerance leads to taboos which lead to better sex lives: any sort of sex act that is labeled "deviant", or taboo is always one of the funner sex acts.

If everything was tolerated in mainstream culture, anal, oral, homosexuality, orgies, etc., and nothing was taboo, wouldn't our sex lives be that much more mundane? Wouldn't making love in an elevator become equivalent to doing it in the missionary position with the lights off between 9:15 and 10:40 every night?

If tolerance were to "overcome," I'm sure new taboos would be created...

 

[Thumper]

Tolerance

In the end the only thing we really have any control over is ourselves....so why should we waste time and energy putting down or trying to change others. It affects me not in the least who(what even?) George or Susan down the street decide to get freaky with. Tolerance is more about tending to your own garden and not concerning yourself with the weeds in your neighbors...however if the lady next door ever needs any help with her "bush" I will certainly offer my expert assistance in that area

A wabbit in the bush...is worth two in the hand...er something like that

Hey kitten, wanna do some gardening?

 

[Silverlily]

Your bush or mine, neighbor?

 

[Purple Haze]

I was watching this talk show where two couples were pitted up against eachother, two gay men verses a really conservative "normal" couple. This was quite a while ago, It was probably on Donahue or something, but after listening to this stupid couple voice their disgust over what these gay men did behind closed doors, I got a visual of these "normal" people duing it, and it was not a pretty sight, let me tell ya.

 

[Unclebill]

I agree but only to a point.

I ascribe to your philosophy of tolerance as far as between consenting adults. I don't consider it tolerance when people want to be 'in your face', vis-a-vis defiantly offensive and expect me to appreciate or accept their behavior. Behind closed doors, I don't care what consenting adults do, but I don't appreciate their intolerance when they want to shove their behavior 'up my nose' when I don't like or appreciate the behavior. If I don't tell them not to do it then they should respect my equal right to not be expected to watch or approve. In a nutshell, I guess I'm ranting about the difference between tolerance and blanket acceptance.

As to it eliminating the shock factor, I doubt that will ever happen. There are that minority whose purpose and mission in life seems to be evoking shock and revulsion from others as if it were some sick validation of themselves (a la Jerry Springer).

So don't expect tolernace to eradicate that behavior. I'm about as tolerant as you'll find anywhere and most of the really stupid posts I ignore like a series a few mnths back by noname or something like that whose only seemed to be to evoke conflict. A total waste of bits and bytes!

 

[Purple Haze]

You're right, Unclebill, pushing one's sexual preference just doesn't do it for me. Where you put your weinie in the dark is really nobody's business but your own, in the public world anyway. I don't care for "normal" people telling "abnormals" how it has to be done, according to their twisted version of God or whoever. I also don't need public displays of sexual attitude from anybody, please have some manners, will ya?

 

[Siren]

In really is a question of tolerance rather than acceptance as Uncle Bill stated

 

[Never]

Rolly: "Should we not all be more accepting and tolerant of others sexual activities?"
Hmmmm, that sound nice but no, I don't think so. I think I'm already as tolerant and accepting as I wish to be, I'd say most people see their beliefs in the same light.

Our tolerance will remove the shock value of the above type of post and everyone will go, yes seen it, heard it, no big deal - then laugh a bit. "Gosh" all their shock value is gone and I bet you would see far fewer of this type of silly posting."
That's right, we'd have more, "I just raped my underage sister who's a virgin and now I'm going to stuff a metal spike up her ass and make her give my best friend head." People who want to shock will move on to progressively more 'shocking' thoughts until they get the reaction they desire.

"One last idea to consider is personal freedom. The freedom to choose your partner and your right to privacy."
Both of those rights already exist in the US.

Sexy: "If everything was tolerated in mainstream culture, anal, oral, homosexuality, orgies, etc., and nothing was taboo, wouldn't our sex lives be that much more mundane?"
If nothing were taboo, I'd actually have a sex life. Do you really think feeling guilty or dirty about sex enhances it?

Purple Haze: "I got a visual of these "normal" people duing it, and it was not a pretty sight, let me tell ya."
But as long as they enjoy it and are comfortable with it why do you feel the need to judge them?

Uncle Bill: "I don't consider it tolerance when people want to be 'in your face', vis-a-vis defiantly offensive and expect me to appreciate or accept their behavior. Behind closed doors, I don't care what consenting adults do, but I don't appreciate their intolerance when they want to shove their behavior 'up my nose' when I don't like or appreciate the behavior."
I'm always confused by what people mean when they say this sort of thing. What is 'in your face'? Holding hands? Walking around in drag? Kissing in public?
I have this mental image of you walking about your business when a group a gay men in leather and a donkey suddenly strip in front of you, tie you down and make you watch their orgy.
Where do people live that this happens? I've walked around for almost two decades now and have never seen anything more 'in your face' then a regular young, non related, typically of the same race, heterosexual couple doing their best impression of the 'Big Red' commercial.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I meant.. that I meant nothing.

 

[Cheyenne]

Originally posted by Rolly

Is not just our own limits in society that say; well I will accept this type of relationship, but not that? Also here at Literotica of all places, should there not be more impartiality displayed?

Why should people at Lit be more impartial? Lit is still a part of the overall society in which we live. On average, we may be on the more liberal end of that society, but we have our likes and dislikes, just like everyone else. We are most definitely not impartial.

I have been screwing my niece for three years and it’s great and she is Chinese and I am African American. Or I have been giving my aunt oral sex on the bus at two in the morning with everyone not inebriated, watching – what do yaa’all’ think?

Our tolerance will remove the shock value of the above type of post and everyone will go, yes seen it, heard it, no big deal – then laugh a bit. "Gosh" all their shock value is gone and I bet you would see far fewer of this type of silly posting.

But maybe we shouldn't want to lose the shock value of some things in life? Maybe some things should shock us, even at Lit? I believe tolerance isn't always a good thing. And while I may get flamed for this example based on past threads, the best extreme example of this is the tolerance shown when the Jews were exterminated in the Nazi death camps. Less tolerance and a lot more shock value would have gone a long way towards saving millions of lives.

Other examples (and I make no comment here as to which way I believe- these are for illustration only)would be those who are shocked by humans killing each other for any reason. They have low tolerance for killing, so they fight the acceptance of the death penalty and/or abortion in our society. Or those people who are shocked by words like those in FlamingoBlue's thread, so they don't tolerate bigotry as an every day normal event and they fight discrimination. I don't think that as a society, we ever want to get to the point where the death penalty, abortion, discrimination, incest, etc. no longer have any shock value and are as a matter of course tolerated by all. Disagreement on these issues is good for our society, it makes us think and examine our own beliefs, as well as those of society, periodically.

One last idea to consider is personal freedom. The freedom to choose your partner and your right to privacy.

You have personal freedom and privacy, within the laws of the society you live in. If you don't like the laws, get them changed.

As I said before, incest isn't accepted by our society and is, in fact, against the law (as far as I know) in most places. Don't expect me to be impartial on the subject just because this is a porn site. I have an opinion, and that opinion is that the laws against incest are good laws in our society.

 

[Patryn]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...I don't care what you do as long as you don't harm anyone or have sex with kids. What goes on behind the bedroom door of a couple, any couple is their business, and it's not for us to judge. If they're consensenting and enjoying themselves, more power to them.

 

[Always]

if both partners are willing
if both partners are legal
i hope they have fun.

 

[Never]

if both partners are willing
if both partners are legal
i hope they have fun.

Fun.. before they burn in hell.

 

[Rolly]

more of Rolly's thoughts on this topic

Well now, I was checking to see if good discussion and debate were still alive and flourishing here at Literoitca, and yes they seems to. I have great respect for all the people that have posted. I may not agree with all comments, but sometimes that is when you learn the most. Also the older members will understand this; that I think SouthHelle was wrong, when she suggested the board was reverting to the insipid level (swimming to the shallow end).



Uncle Bill, your position is clear and concise. In my original post I am referring to what goes on behind close doors and I can understand that you do not what anyone attempting to ‘force’ their views of sexuality on you. Having someone or a group attempt to coerce you to agree with their sexual bias is not what I meant by being tolerant. Good post thank you.

Siren, thanks for the praise regarding my narrative SMD. If you review the end of the work you will see a note that my relationship with my evolved to non-sexual stance and was similar, but not the same as pre- intercourse. We were totally in love with each other still and very comfortable with our love. To describe how I felt, was/is, like trying to describe a color. All you can do is talk around it and try and describe by association.

Never, I do agree people can post more shocking and ridiculous statements looking for that reaction and then feeding off it. I did notice though that your example employs violence and I was only referring to sexuality not abuse of any type. At some point I believe the moderator may remove anything hideous in nature. When referring to savagery and brutality mankind may know no limit or sanity.


Cheyenne, most of your discussion is good. I do have a problem of your comparison of incest, to death camps, death penalty, discrimination, or other types of violence and other skewed off topic ideas. I was only referring to loving sexuality not any type of violence or other activities.

You seem to imply, I suggest that we should all become tolerant of the latter listed activities.

Which I unequivocally do not.

I suggest you re-read my original question, and limit the discuss to that scope. Of course you don't have to but then your are not discussing the same topic as I posted and are off on a tangent. And in that case may I recommend we start a new thread.
Please review my intial post;
Any sex between anyone, who is an adult, and consenting with no coercion or duress of any kind.

Also not the word incest does not imply abuse, nor age, nor lack of emotional love.
It simple means a sexual relationship between individuals that that can not marry.

Again I am completely for removing violence from our society and promoting love. In this area we seem to be in complete agreement.

 

[KillerMuffin]

The problems with acceptance of incest is boiled down to two simple things.

One, in my experience, most incest is begun by an older male relative with a pubescent female relative who doesn't know any better or might be weak in personality. No, I cannot back this up with statistics and studies, merely from group therapy through the years.

The female may have no idea why its wrong for them to be doing what they are doing. She may have no idea that its physically better on her body for her to wait. Pubescent is about 11-14 and the body is not fully developed to accept a man, even though menses may have begun.

Two. The gene pool. Incest proponents may argue that there is no proof that incest affects children of that union in any way. They are misinformed. Studies have been done, and those studies have shown an extremely high incidence of lower intelligence, deformity, and disability. I'm sure a genetics expert would be able to explain why this is true. Condoms break, birth control pills get skipped, and plain carelessness happens.

There are more than just moral, religious, and societal reasons why incest is considered unacceptable behavior.

What would happen if I discovered that the man and wife next door were really brother and sister? Not much. What they do in their own home is their business. I would pretend I didn't know, and try to forget it. I would not like it, but I would ignore it.

What would happen if the man and wife next door started loudly touting to the neighborhood that they were brother and sister and incest is grand? I would no longer associate with them, nor would I allow my children to. It wouldn't be long before they were arrested no doubt. Incest is a crime in this state.

Is my behaviour in both of these instances right or consistent with each other? Doesn't matter. My view is that incest is wrong, but if they are going to do it, so be it. They are adults and capable of making the decision. If they try to make it appear that what they are doing is a good alternative lifestyle, that, I will not tolerate.

 

[Rolly]

A question of definitions?

Muffin, exemplary post, thank you. Interesting the association that has been display between incest and abusive sexual activity. Note; the definition of incest does not include abuse. Just as the definition of intercourse does not include sexual assault. People if we started a discussion about intercourse would everyone immediately start referring to rape? Of course not. In a discussion of intercourse some may mention; it is a beautiful activity between two individuals in love.


Consider this, a brother and sister who love each other very much. Would it be so odd to have them extend that emotional love into a sexual love? They may have absolutely no intention of marrying and having child. The sexual love is just one more expression of they more important emotional love they share. In my own example I stated several times the sexual love was not the most important aspect of the relationship with my uncle. In fact is was only a small part of our relationship, and was transient in nature.

Muffin, I do agree with you that I do not want to see young child victimized by anyone. I have stated this many times, and even in the beginning of this discussion. As result of my narrative posting on Literotica, I had been contacted by many couples engaged in incest or previously engaged. Most seem reasonable happy by their relationship and choice of partners. Abuse of a child can happen with equally terrible consequence, regardless if incest is present.

Muffin, I do agree that childbirth from an incestuous relationship is not a good idea. I also believe that it is very rare, and not the normally desired goal of most incestuous relations.
Here is quote from my own work in the 'Post Narrative Discussion' at the end of Sunrise My Darling.

"I will not even touch on the point of impregnation with relatives. This is just a plain ignorant idea, in this age of understanding sexual mechanics."

If one is to worry about mutations and childbirth, we as a society would do much better looking at the effects of; pesticides in the food we eat, and drugs we ingest, on the fertilized female's egg in first trimester of pregnancy.

And yes birth control can fail, but then cars crash, ships sink, and people die. There are no guarantees with life.

 

[Cheyenne]

Originally posted by Rolly

Cheyenne, most of your discussion is good. I do have a problem of your comparison of incest, to death camps, death penalty, discrimination, or other types of violence and other skewed off topic ideas. I was only referring to loving sexuality not any type of violence or other activities.

I suggest you re-read my original question, and limit the discuss to that scope. Of course you don't have to but then your are not discussing the same topic as I posted and are off on a tangent. And in that case may I recommend we start a new thread.
Please review my intial post; Any sex between anyone, who is an adult, and consenting with no coercion or duress of any kind.

Nope, I said what I meant to say and I think it is perfectly on topic, not off on a tangent. The common denominator was not violence among my examples. I listed things that most people do not tolerate and probably should not tolerate. You asked us to tolerate incest and I don't think we should. Substitute drunk driving, running a red light, stealing, lying on your income taxe form etc., for any of the other items I used as examples and the argument still holds true. Some things should not be tolerated- these things generally are also illegal. Incest is an example of something that should not be tolerated and is illegal.

Also not the word incest does not imply abuse, nor age, nor lack of emotional love. It simple means a sexual relationship between individuals that that can not marry.

You make is sound so innocent. I don't care how you justify it to yourself. It is still illegal. Others have tried to explain to you why it is illegal, you choose to think the risk of pregancy from incest is no different than other risks in life, that there are no guarantees. Wrong. If you obey the law against incest, there is a guarantee that you won't become pregnant from it. Also, incest is not accepted in our society. Society believes there is something morally wrong with a brother and sister having sex, or an uncle and a niece. There are no exceptions to the society taboo on incest for adults who "love" each other and chose to enter into incest. Love and legal age are irrelevant facts.

I stick with my original comments. If you don't like the incest laws, work to change them. In the meantime, don't ask me to be "impartial" or to "tolerate" those who practice incest. You asked for our opinions and I gave you mine. I won't offer my opinion on incest to someone who hasn't asked for it. That's about as much tolerance as I will give.

 

[teresafannin]

I find it very interesting that there are supposedly so many adult only incestual relationships, but no one ever talks about it. If it were as common as some people would have us think, why do we not hear about it? Virtually every incestual relationship seems to have been started by an adult, preying on a child. It is not uncommon for victims of crime to become emotionally involved with their abuser, whether it be incest, rape, or some other crime.Once a child's trust has been violated, it is very easy for that child to remain in an unhealthy relationship & continue it into adulthood.

To wetneice, s4brains was stating a fairly well-known & documented fact.I have worked with survivors of incest & the problems run deep in many of them. To call him a jerk because you don't like his response shows that you are the jerk. If you don't want to open yourself up for opinions different from your own, I would recommend you avoid posting on a public board. If you came here looking for approval, I am afraid you will not find it here. Your uncle abused you, plain & simple & if you are continuing in this relationship, you are both sick.

 

[Nogard]

Rolly, I love your posts. Seldom have I seen anyone that has it together and can present it so well. I am glad you're back. For the rest, you all seem to think because you don't believe in it, it is wrong. BUT, you come back touting your own perversions and asking forgivness for them instead of going to GOD and asking for forgivness. Whoops, sorry, you ask for nothing because your perversions are perfectally O.K. Everyone else is wrong. GROW UP! We are all different. Stop trying to put your beliefs on others. Any one ever heard of COYOTE. Stood for Call off your old tired ethics. A group started by a woman in San Francisco that was a hooker. Makes me wonder why she was so much smarter than the rest of us. Most of you posters are a real disappointment. Wish I was perfect so I could fit in.

 

[Ambrosious]

Man, the thought that anyone could be a proponet of incest sickens me. Welcome back to the "if it feels good to ME, the hell with everyone else!". Do you not feel some disappointment in yourself that you cannot resist to act on inherently WRONG desires and fantasies? I know I would, I feel that I am stronger than my desires.

You may not think so, but some things are wrong, have been wrong for a long time, and will be wrong for ages to come. Just because you start a support group run by a tired old hooker trying to justify her BAD choices in life, does NOT make your actions right.

Some things are just evil. Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Incest, Bestiality...

 

[Rolly]

more to think about

Cheyenne, It is dictionary definition that I have posted for incest. If you fell I have distorted it in anyway I can leave you to argue with the book. If I have made it sound innocent possibly it is - it’s only loving sexuality I was discussing here. I have not tried to force my opinions on you -- so why be angry? You have the full right to post and disagree with me and I acknowledge that (and encourage it). I only objected to your implying that I was being tolerant of violence. I did not in any way insult your opinion or ideas. Also if you are concerned about law, please do not engage in oral sex if you are in California, it's illegal.
Jane

 

[Siren]

Okay everyone this issue has been explored from every angle....