What if Diversity Trainings Are Doing More Harm Than Good? by Jesse Singal

[Inthesewalls]

I have read Robin DiAngelo's book, White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism. She is a professional diversity trainer.

You mean the same diversity trainer who said,

"I don’t think equity training is problematic unless it’s not followed by anything. People need to be given information. The problem is that when the presentation is over, people think [the diversity training] is done. It has to be sustained.

There are very strong forces that don’t want to challenge the status quo—it works quite well for a demographic that has a lot of power. There is a time we need to ask ourselves: Who am I? Am I not going to address this because some people don’t want to? We wouldn’t have a civil rights movement if people gave up in the face of resistance."

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/o...ators-can-move-beyond-white-fragility/2019/01

Her entire thing is all white people are racist. Racism isnt just people doing terrible things (like assuming blacks are not as smart and need to change their behavior) Racism can be as simple internal bias we arent aware of bc we are culturally programmed. It would be next to impossible to not have these bias in the US. You can be a "nice" person and still have racist ideas. It all comes down to bias. Calling ourselves anti racist is a way to distant ourselves from feeling uncomfortable with our own racism.

That is to say, no one is immune. White people need to unpack their issues and acknowledge their privledge. Its not enough to only do this training. We need to truly internalize it and implement it. Its uncomfortable work to acknowledge privledge especially when we feel we struggle too. Our struggles are not the struggles of minorities though. Diversity training might not be the be all,end all, answer but neither is failing to acknowledge things.

Im not sure how you think what she says proves or disproves your point. Then again, Im not really fluent in the language of the dunning-kruger set.
Because you obviously feel reading One Single Book combined with a certified NYT editorial qualifies you as an expert. How do you have time to post here let alone respond with your phone ringing off the hook for your expertise?


"I don't have to accept any person or any group if they do not match up to the expectations of the group to which they wish to be included. Yes its that simple. It isn't a race issue at all its an entitlement issue. You should never be automatically included because of who you are versus what you have accomplished that makes you a viable member of the group.don't have to accept any person or any group if they do not match up to the expectations of the group to which they wish to be included. Yes its that simple. It isn't a race issue at all its an entitlement issue. You should never be automatically included because of who you are versus what you have accomplished that makes you a viable member of the group."

(Know this isnt you but you liked it. Also its an interesting take.)

This comes so fucking close to the point its blowing it. I mean if a black person were writing this, it would make sense. White, however, is the default. Does no one else see the irony here? Spelled out someone who is automatically included by being white doesnt want to have to include anybody automatically because of their race.

Minorities dont owe you jack. Certainly not to white men benefiting from society in a way they are hell bent on exluding anyone else from. I mean yall cant handle the thought of fictional black mermaids or indiana jones as a woman. I guess I shouldnt be suprised here.

How do you say black people need to earn their place through their behaviors?Who thought up those behaviors and standards? Spoiler alert its fucking white people who feel they have the authority just by being white. I guess what I really want to ask is where you get the audacity to stand in judgement?

All this is projection at its finest. We cant have anybody else be treated automatically bc of skin color unless you are white. If we include black people and other minorities- you might have to earn your place at the table.

We all know enough mediocre to less then mediocre white people excelling at life that would never be there if they were held to the same standards as other groups. Thats a fact. (Really google is free. White privledge(from reputable sources or better yet actual minorities voices ) would be an excellent start.)

This thread makes my brain hurt because it really is that stupid. Puffing up your chest and proclaiming nobody deserves your consideration or extra help because of the fact they are a certain race while smugly sitting back and enjoying the privledges of simply being white (which last I checked is a race). Cool story bro.

I realize this will fall on deaf ears to someone who thinks minorities are the problem or that giving information to people to help them understand racism and their own privledge is wrong or a waste of time. However, contradictions and stupidity need to be called out.

Keep quoting studies that have been debunked. Keep cherry picking ideas and opinions that support your ridiculous assertions. Keep telling yourself that you are a special unique snowflake that mommy told you- you are.

This will not change the reality of systemic racism. Calling other races less valuable or incapable -while ignoring how your race gave you advantages -will not make your opinion a reality. If it didnt actively hurt other people id find the ego and entitlement in you all hilarious.

Btw, there are black women, indigenous women, jewish women, oriental women,muslim women, transwomen (who yes Are women), queer women- so many important diverse groups of woman. Do you respect all of them?I'd wager what you really mean is you respect white women. I mean thats too broad as well. Likely, we can safely say conventionallly attractive women who "know their place" in society.

Diversity training IS a waste on people like you who are so completely enamored of themselves and their viewpoints that they miss the glaring contradictions in their assertions.

I mean good luck with the denial. The rest of us will be over here in reality. Have the day you defintely deserve.

 

[Lazaran]

DEI, or DIE as I think it should be referred to, is just another hoax perpetrated on the public by a bunch of academic egg heads that have virtually no idea how the real world works.

Having attended plenty of DEI type training sessions both in person and online during my days in corporate America, I don’t think they are harmful or helpful. They’re basically time wasters designed to make senior executives and board members feel virtuous while providing a degree of potential insulation from lawsuits. Attendees sleep through them and privately snicker and poke fun at some of the asinine material presented in these sessions.

As they should.

The above RWCJ racist idiots were quoted for posterity, validity. and stupidity.

Their racially motivated lack of receptiveness and responsiveness to D.E.I. mirrors the racially motivated lack of receptiveness and responsiveness to the Civil Rights Act reforms.

That ^ is institutional / systemic racism in action.

And that ^ explains the CURRENT gross economic and social disparities between black / brown Americans and white Americans.

Thanks for playing RWCJ racist idiots.

RWCJ racist idiots

 

[Chobham]

I don't have to accept any person or any group if they do not match up to the expectations of the group to which they wish to be included. Yes its that simple. It isn't a race issue at all its an entitlement issue. You should never be automatically included because of who you are versus what you have accomplished that makes you a viable member of the group.

Yup. Freedom of association along with meritocracy.

 

[JohnEngelman]

You mean the same diversity trainer who said,

"I don’t think equity training is problematic unless it’s not followed by anything. People need to be given information. The problem is that when the presentation is over, people think [the diversity training] is done. It has to be sustained.

There are very strong forces that don’t want to challenge the status quo—it works quite well for a demographic that has a lot of power. There is a time we need to ask ourselves: Who am I? Am I not going to address this because some people don’t want to? We wouldn’t have a civil rights movement if people gave up in the face of resistance."

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/o...ators-can-move-beyond-white-fragility/2019/01

Her entire thing is all white people are racist. Racism isnt just people doing terrible things (like assuming blacks are not as smart and need to change their behavior) Racism can be as simple internal bias we arent aware of bc we are culturally programmed. It would be next to impossible to not have these bias in the US. You can be a "nice" person and still have racist ideas. It all comes down to bias. Calling ourselves anti racist is a way to distant ourselves from feeling uncomfortable with our own racism.

That is to say, no one is immune. White people need to unpack their issues and acknowledge their privledge. Its not enough to only do this training. We need to truly internalize it and implement it. Its uncomfortable work to acknowledge privledge especially when we feel we struggle too. Our struggles are not the struggles of minorities though. Diversity training might not be the be all,end all, answer but neither is failing to acknowledge things.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Minorities dont owe you jack. Certainly not to white men benefiting from society in a way they are hell bent on exluding anyone else from.

Whites do not exclude Orientals. Before the civil rights movement they were often considered to be honorary whites because of their good performance and behavior. Orientals have earned the title, "the model minority."

 

[JohnEngelman]

This thread makes my brain hurt because it really is that stupid. Puffing up your chest and proclaiming nobody deserves your consideration or extra help because of the fact they are a certain race

When my technological firm hired a black computer programmer I began mentoring him, although I had not been told to. He told our boss that I was helping him. Our boss told me, "It is my job to train the people I hire, but I do not always have the time. You are making my job a lot easier."

That is the best thing a boss can say to a subordinate.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Diversity training IS a waste on people like you who are so completely enamored of themselves and their viewpoints that they miss the glaring contradictions in their assertions.

What are the contradictions in my assertions? Mention one so we can discuss it.

I am always willing to listen to a good argument, and usually to a bad argument.

 

[lazy_literotic]

I have read Robin DiAngelo's book, White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism. She is a professional diversity trainer.

so you would say it's ok if your granddaughter, if she was handicapped, was subject to ridicule, sexual jokes etc etc in her workplace?

there's more to human respect than weak white people ganging up on minorities.

 

[JohnEngelman]

so you would say it's ok if your granddaughter, if she was handicapped, was subject to ridicule, sexual jokes etc etc in her workplace?

there's more to human respect than weak white people ganging up on minorities.

The answer to your question is "No."

I have never asserted that I disagree with your last sentence. Human respect is earned by behaving and performing well. It is not earned by harassing others. Nevertheless, it is legitimate to expect others to behave and perform well, especially when we work for the same company.

 

[ll74]

The answer to your question is "No."

I have never asserted that I disagree with your last sentence. Human respect is earned by behaving and performing well. It is not earned by harassing others. Nevertheless, it is legitimate to expect others to behave and perform well, especially when we work for the same company.

You respect people based on their race. Depending on their race, you have already assumed whether they deserve it.

 

[lazy_literotic]

a couple of guys where I worked got sent to 'charm school' - that's what we called it.
but they made some remarks to female workers.
I thought it was a good idea.

that t-shit guy - he made the word pussy normal vernacular for 5th graders on the playground.
making fun of handicapped.
raping women in dressing rooms.
calling them dogs etc etc - that was on the debate.

the rest of the world is moving forward with interhuman respect.
not here.

 

[JohnEngelman]

You respect people based on their race. Depending on their race, you have already assumed whether they deserve it.

What you say about me is terribly wrong. One of the best and most interesting friends I ever had in my life was a black college professor who taught Freshman English at Howard University.

Because he was attractive and charming, most of the girls in his classes were infatuated with him. He had too much integrity to take advantage of that.

He would invite me to parties at his apartment where I was the only white person present.

He was working on his PhD at the time, and was fulfilling his foreign language requirement by learning ancient Greek. When I asked him why he was learning such a difficult language, when he already knew German and French he answered, "I want to show those white boys what I can do."

What you call my racism consists of and is limited to my insistence on evaluating blacks by using the same criteria I use in evaluating whites.

 

[JohnEngelman]

a couple of guys where I worked got sent to 'charm school' - that's what we called it.
but they made some remarks to female workers.
I thought it was a good idea.

that t-shit guy - he made the word pussy normal vernacular for 5th graders on the playground.
making fun of handicapped.
raping women in dressing rooms.
calling them dogs etc etc - that was on the debate.

the rest of the world is moving forward with interhuman respect.
not here.

If it makes you feel any better I hate Trump. I voted against him in 2016 and 2020.

 

[ll74]

What you say about me is terribly wrong. One of the best and most interesting friends I ever had in my life was a black college professor who taught Freshman English at Howard University.

Because he was attractive and charming, most of the girls in his classes were infatuated with him. He had too much integrity to take advantage of that.

He would invite me to parties at his apartment where I was the only white person present.

He was working on his PhD at the time, and was fulfilling his foreign language requirement by learning ancient Greek. When I asked him why he was learning such a difficult language, when he already knew German and French he answered, "I want to show those white boys what I can do."

What you call my racism consists of and is limited to my insistence on evaluating blacks by using the same criteria I use in evaluating whites.

Nothing I said was wrong. Two people of differing races that you don't know do not receive the same amount of respect from you.

What I call your racism is racism.

 

[lazy_literotic]

sorry - I probably made a gross error.
with you.
I didn't read much beyond the first headlines.
I just hate the dumbing down of our society - scientists don't know anything etc etc.
anyway I just don't like the delin

 

[JohnEngelman]

Nothing I said was wrong. Two people of differing races that you don't know do not receive the same amount of respect from you.

What I call your racism is racism.

You call me a racist because you cannot refute my arguments. Once I asked a young black man, "If you are alone in a city after dark, and four young men you do not know are walking toward you, will you feel safer if they are white or black?"

He answered, "I will feel safer if they are white, a lot safer. I think most blacks feel the same way. Even in the South I would feel safer if they are white."

I feel the same way he does. So does Jesse Jackson.

 

[ll74]

You call me a racist because you cannot refute my arguments. Once I asked a young black man, "If you are alone in a city after dark, and four young men you do not know are walking toward you, will you feel safer if they are white or black?"

He answered, "I will feel safer if they are white, a lot safer. I think most blacks feel the same way. Even in the South I would feel safer if they are white."

I feel the same way he does. So does Jesse Jackson.

I call you a racist because you are a racist.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I call you a racist because you are a racist.

By your definition I am. Watch me not care.

 

[ll74]

By your definition I am. Watch me not care.

The definition is in the dictionary, as has been mentioned multiple times.

And you continuing to change the definition is evidence of your caring. Certainly your definition isn't listed in any dictionary

 

[Lazaran]

I notice the “great” John E. and the RWCJ FAILED to address the point I made about racist white Americans admitting to perpetuating discrimination based inequality by being non-receptive and non-responsive to D.E.I. AND The Civil Rights Act. Essentially admitting to perpetuating institutional / systemic racism.

I WONDER WHY???

WE

KNOW

WHY


the “great John E. and the RWCJ

 

[JohnEngelman]

I notice the “great” John E. and the RWCJ FAILED to address the point I made about racist white Americans admitting to perpetuating discrimination based inequality by being non-receptive and non-responsive to D.E.I. AND The Civil Rights Act. Essentially admitting to perpetuating institutional / systemic racism.

I WONDER WHY???

WE

KNOW

WHY


the “great John E. and the RWCJ

Blacks are not discriminated against. They are discriminated in favor of with affirmative action. I want affirmative action to end, both in university admissions, and in hiring decisions.

School administrators will always think of ways to admit blacks who do not belong on the campus. Plenty of bosses will be happy to fire people they were pressured by the government to hire.

 

[JohnEngelman]

The definition is in the dictionary, as has been mentioned multiple times.

And you continuing to change the definition is evidence of your caring. Certainly your definition isn't listed in any dictionary

rac·ist ˈrā-sist
also -shist

: of, relating to, or characterized by racism: such as
a
: having, reflecting, or fostering the belief that race (see RACE entry 1 sense 1a) is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racist

----------

racism​

noun​

rac·ism ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm
also -ˌshi-

1
: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2
a
: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another

-----------

I believe that a society benefits when nearly everyone in the society is characterized by intelligence, obedience to the law, and monogamy. I do not believe that race determines these characteristics. I believe that they are largely determined genetically, and that the gene alleles that determine them are more likely to be found in Orientals than in whites.

To the extent that I believe that Orientals are more likely to be intelligent, law abiding, and monogamous than white Gentiles, I am a racist, but I am not a white supremacist because I am a white Gentile myself.

 

[ll74]

rac·ist ˈrā-sist
also -shist

: of, relating to, or characterized by racism: such as
a
: having, reflecting, or fostering the belief that race (see RACE entry 1 sense 1a) is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racist

----------

racism​

noun​

rac·ism ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm
also -ˌshi-

1
: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2
a
: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another

-----------

I believe that a society benefits when nearly everyone in the society is characterized by intelligence, obedience to the law, and monogamy. I do not believe that race determines these characteristics.

Now you're just flat out lying again. Of course you do...it's in every statement and every data point that you present.

I believe that they are largely determined genetically, and that the gene alleles that determine them are more likely to be found in Orientals than in whites.

I can't believe that you literally contradicted yourself in the next sentence. If you believe genetics determines these things and you believe races differ genetically....

Then you believe race determines these things and that races differ genetically.

To the extent that I believe that Orientals are more likely to be intelligent, law abiding, and monogamous than white Gentiles, I am a racist, but I am not a white supremacist because I am a white Gentile myself.

I don't give a fuck what flavor of racist you think yourself to be.

 

[Lazaran]

The “great” John E.’s entire rebuttal is: Nuh-uh.

There have been endless examples of white people ignoring the reforms in the Civil Rights Act, and the RWCJ has ADMITTED IN THIS THREAD that they ignored D.E.I. reforms.

CURRENT GROSS social and economic disparities between black Americans and white Americans can easily be primarily attributed to the continuation of discrimination by white Americans against black Americans AFTER the Civil Rights Act and Affirmative Action.

the “great” John E.

 

[YDB95]

What she is saying is that whites need to change, but blacks don't.

If that really is what she's saying (and I have my doubts in light of your track record), then I disagree with her. But that is no excuse for your racism, John.