Strickly online D/s relationships...discuss, share advise

[Iamsubmissive]

It appears as if you are not understanding the gist of her post. She is not saying that real life couples don't have communication issues, but rather those which they have are right in front of them and easy to see. If there is a problem and one of them walks away or quits speaking, you know it right then and there. If someone raises their voice you know it right then and there. If someone cowers or cries you know it right then and there. If someone becomes abusive physically or emotionally you know it right then and there. If someone becomes irrational or exaggerates you know it right then and right there. Real life is in real time. While their will always be some mysteries in RL couples, the mysteries are much fewer than in a couple that have never met. Not counting secrets and that kind of thing, but rather day to day living. Bad habits can only be hidden for so long in the real world while all kinds of bad habits are quite easy to hide with a couple who has never met. Facts are harder to verify, faces are harder to read, and then the whole non verbal communication thing.

Granted people can talk on the phone or video and that is in real time, but the lack of physicality still presents all kinds of barriers that RL couples do not have.

Exactly...that's what I was trying to say.

 

[Iamsubmissive]

I'm not an overly physical person in my day to day life. I don't need human contact or hugs or physical affection from my friends - it makes me uncomfortable and would be detrimental to my relationships. I'm odd, I know.
However, the lack of physical connection and human contact in this sort of situation is difficult. If there's a good coping mechanism to deal with the longing then I've not found it. I suppose it always helped knowing that I wasn't alone in feeling that way, but it's still sucky.

Thanks for answering the questions I posted at the beginning of this thread. The part I quoted was interesting to me. I feel the same way. I'm not overly affectionate in RL and I actually enjoy solitude when I have it. In RL I'm fine going days without seeing, or even communicating, with my partner. It's just us living separate parts of our lives...and I guess I figure if things have been good between us, it's no big deal...we'll reconnect later and everything's fine, no worries. I didn't understand why online was so different, but it definitely was. I guess I didn't feel that normal security that RL relationships have for me. The mystery in online can be a 'good exciting' or an 'insecurity trigger' sometimes.

 

[Primalex]

If there is a problem and one of them walks away or quits speaking, you know it right then and there.

What do you know? You know he or she walked away, which is basically equivalent with the other person not responding online. That's all you know.

If someone becomes abusive physically or emotionally you know it right then and there.

I'm not sure if you are really aware of what you are expressing with this statement. You might want to redact that one on your own, before the can of worms is open.

If someone becomes irrational or exaggerates you know it right then and right there.

"I love you" is likely the most popular exaggerated statement that is used in a relationship. Your statement is only true for the most trivial cases - yes, you can spot an exaggeration about the bra or cock size, but that's about it.


And you are completely omitting all the cases where real time does not improve the communication. The cases where someone is caught unaware. Where promises are made rashly which end up in bitter disappointment. Where silence is automatically regarded as approval (after all, he or she could have said something, right?)....

 

[Iamsubmissive]

What do you know? You know he or she walked away, which is basically equivalent with the other person not responding online. That's all you know.

I'm not sure if you are really aware of what you are expressing with this statement. You might want to redact that one on your own, before the can of worms is open.

"I love you" is likely the most popular exaggerated statement that is used in a relationship. Your statement is only true for the most trivial cases - yes, you can spot an exaggeration about the bra or cock size, but that's about it.

And you are completely omitting all the cases where real time does not improve the communication. The cases where someone is caught unaware. Where promises are made rashly which end up in bitter disappointment. Where silence is automatically regarded as approval (after all, he or she could have said something, right?)....

I get what you're saying in that sometimes RL can be deceiving too. I'm not arguing that. Misunderstandings happen, people lie or pretend things are something other than they are...I get that. But I think it's still easier to 'trust' what's right in front of you. If things go wrong, you might beat yourself up for having bad judgement or easily decide the other person was just an asshole. When it's only online there's more room to question what really happened...in my opinion.

 

[Iamsubmissive]

I'm just going to give another example that might make sense...

If I had a bad day and sent an email to my online partner complaining about how much I hate noisy kids in a restaurant, and how I think the parents of those kids are inconsiderate for letting their kids act like brats...then I don't ever hear from him again...did I offend him with my complaining? Does he have bratty kids? Does he think I'm a bitch because I don't like kids? Or did his wife find our emails and threaten to leave if he didn't cease our relationship? Maybe he was just bored of me anyway...maybe he died in a car accident. Maybe a million other possibilities.

If I had that same conversation in person, my partner would be able to tell from my attitude and tone that I just had a bad day and was ranting about anything. If he wasn't sure he would most likely make a comment that would have me clarifying it. I would also, most likely be able to tell if I offended him. Maybe we would argue, or work it out, or disagree and break up. Maybe he would pretend everything was fine, go home, then never call me again. Then after being avoided by him, I would chalk it up to 'he's a dick' and move on. Either way...less personal doubt on my end.

 

[SilverBass]

What do you know? You know he or she walked away, which is basically equivalent with the other person not responding online. That's all you know.




I'm not sure if you are really aware of what you are expressing with this statement. You might want to redact that one on your own, before the can of worms is open.




"I love you" is likely the most popular exaggerated statement that is used in a relationship. Your statement is only true for the most trivial cases - yes, you can spot an exaggeration about the bra or cock size, but that's about it.


And you are completely omitting all the cases where real time does not improve the communication. The cases where someone is caught unaware. Where promises are made rashly which end up in bitter disappointment. Where silence is automatically regarded as approval (after all, he or she could have said something, right?)....

As often when I notice your comments, you take things out of perspective and focus on whatever negative you can take out of it. No one is saying you can trust everything you see face to face by any means, but you do have many more senses at work in person than you do virtually. We use all of our senses to read and pick up on what is going on around us. Many of our senses are non existent with virtual online/phone/penpal relationships, and when disenabling some of our senses we put ourselves at a deficit of understanding as opposed to the real world. Again, no one is saying the real world is perfect or honest, but it is certainly much more transparent than the alternative.

 

[KimGordon67]

As often when I notice your comments, you take things out of perspective and focus on whatever negative you can take out of it. No one is saying you can trust everything you see face to face by any means, but you do have many more senses at work in person than you do virtually. We use all of our senses to read and pick up on what is going on around us. Many of our senses are non existent with virtual online/phone/penpal relationships, and when disenabling some of our senses we put ourselves at a deficit of understanding as opposed to the real world. Again, no one is saying the real world is perfect or honest, but it is certainly much more transparent than the alternative.

I'm not sure that I'd apply a deficit model to this situation - it's just different. There's a lot of stuff I find easier to say in writing than in face-to-face communication, and I often appreciate the way having to write something important to someone means I spend more time thinking about what I'm saying and how I'm saying, and often I can edit out stuff that I realise would be hurtful, unlike RL - once it's come out of my mouth, it's pretty hard to retract, and you don't get the benefit of proofreading before you speak.
And certainly engaging in sexual activity online/over the phone as resulted in me being able to articulate my desires, and understand those of other people, in ways that I had found much more difficult in immediate physical interactions - it's almost forced me to be more open about those things, which has had beneficial effects all round. Just because the speak-response process isn't immediate in the way it is in RL, it doesn't mean it's necessarily lacking.

 

[FarFlunked]

That was an interesting post. It sounds like you understood her plight, but I was just wondering...did you feel deceived when you learned the truth? Did it change your interactions with her?

No, actually we enjoyed another year or so of rp'ing together before my techie skills, and my computer graphics card, were incapable of keeping up with Second Life updates.

I kept her secret ... was honored that she shared with me.

She had an alt that was female, but online profile explaining her situation. Sadly, there was no place she wanted to be that would welcome her.

 

[SilverBass]

I'm not sure that I'd apply a deficit model to this situation - it's just different. There's a lot of stuff I find easier to say in writing than in face-to-face communication, and I often appreciate the way having to write something important to someone means I spend more time thinking about what I'm saying and how I'm saying, and often I can edit out stuff that I realise would be hurtful, unlike RL - once it's come out of my mouth, it's pretty hard to retract, and you don't get the benefit of proofreading before you speak.
And certainly engaging in sexual activity online/over the phone as resulted in me being able to articulate my desires, and understand those of other people, in ways that I had found much more difficult in immediate physical interactions - it's almost forced me to be more open about those things, which has had beneficial effects all round. Just because the speak-response process isn't immediate in the way it is in RL, it doesn't mean it's necessarily lacking.

I understand what you are saying, but even using your example of spending the time to get it right in a letter or message as opposed to just blurting it out, what you are presenting to the person on the other end is an edited version of yourself. We are human and we blurt stuff out and we make mistakes and we are impulsive (some more than others ). So is the person on the other end of the line really getting to know your true self with these edited messages that have the immediate emotion taken out of them? I would say we are partially covering up our true selves with a purely online experience. And when or if this online experience ever turns to RL, the two versions often don't line up, sometimes resulting in a surprising lack of chemistry that was shared online. Now granted, I do realize that it is easier to say or express some things with an online-only relationship BECAUSE we are not dealing with the here and now and eyeballs staring right at us (no fear of an immediate non accepting reaction, in some cases where this is a worry), and this is one of the things contributing to the different versions of ourselves, our online self vs. our RL self. Our RL and virtual selves are one and the same but our colors in some cases are very different.

 

[KimGordon67]

I understand what you are saying, but even using your example of spending the time to get it right in a letter or message as opposed to just blurting it out, what you are presenting to the person on the other end is an edited version of yourself. We are human and we blurt stuff out and we make mistakes and we are impulsive (some more than others ). So is the person on the other end of the line really getting to know your true self with these edited messages that have the immediate emotion taken out of them? I would say we are partially covering up our true selves with a purely online experience. And when or if this online experience ever turns to RL, the two versions often don't line up, sometimes resulting in a surprising lack of chemistry that was shared online. Now granted, I do realize that it is easier to say or express some things with an online-only relationship BECAUSE we are not dealing with the here and now and eyeballs staring right at us (no fear of an immediate non accepting reaction, in some cases where this is a worry), and this is one of the things contributing to the different versions of ourselves, our online self vs. our RL self. Our RL and virtual selves are one and the same but our colors in some cases are very different.

You could say 'edited', or you could say 'a more thoughtfully considered version that accurately conveys what you really want to say'. I'm a well-trained argument winner - I will say a LOT of stuff in real life that I don't really mean in order to win an argument, because the emotive part of myself that wants to WIN kicks in and is almost uncontrollable. In written communication, I generally much more likely to ensure that I mean what I'm saying, not just scoring points. I don't think the 'blurted' me is any less real than the 'edited' me. You're working on the assumption that people deliberately present false personas in VL - that's just as possible in RL. The persona I employ in my work interactions is much less 'really me' than the persona I present in my online relationships.

 

[SilverBass]

You could say 'edited', or you could say 'a more thoughtfully considered version that accurately conveys what you really want to say'. I'm a well-trained argument winner - I will say a LOT of stuff in real life that I don't really mean in order to win an argument, because the emotive part of myself that wants to WIN kicks in and is almost uncontrollable. In written communication, I generally much more likely to ensure that I mean what I'm saying, not just scoring points. I don't think the 'blurted' me is any less real than the 'edited' me. You're working on the assumption that people deliberately present false personas in VL - that's just as possible in RL. The persona I employ in my work interactions is much less 'really me' than the persona I present in my online relationships.

No, I'm not working with the assumption that we deliberately change who we are at all, I am just saying that when some of our senses are turned off (touch for sure, smell and taste-matter to a lessor degree, often sight and often sound) that whatever we have left to work with is going to naturally come out a bit different than when working with all of our senses.

You could look at it as if you only going to have an online experience with someone then what does it really matter what that person is like in RL, as you will always only be presenting that one virtual side of yourself to the other person. However if we are comparing the two versions side by side, the RL partner is going to receive the much fuller version of ourselves. If the mind is all that matters, and to some people that is the case, then that is what you'll get online. But to many of us that want the entire package, mind, body, all five senses, immediate imperfect reactions, etc. then there is really no comparison between the two. Flesh and bone or a piece of machinery with a voice and possibly an image coming through it. I'm in no way discounting the online experience, but I am saying that this experience is far from the full meal deal. But otherwise, each side has its own pros and cons. Some people may put more weight on the pros and cons of each to see what works better.

 

[Iamsubmissive]

I'm not sure that I'd apply a deficit model to this situation - it's just different. There's a lot of stuff I find easier to say in writing than in face-to-face communication, and I often appreciate the way having to write something important to someone means I spend more time thinking about what I'm saying and how I'm saying, and often I can edit out stuff that I realise would be hurtful, unlike RL - once it's come out of my mouth, it's pretty hard to retract, and you don't get the benefit of proofreading before you speak.
And certainly engaging in sexual activity online/over the phone as resulted in me being able to articulate my desires, and understand those of other people, in ways that I had found much more difficult in immediate physical interactions - it's almost forced me to be more open about those things, which has had beneficial effects all round. Just because the speak-response process isn't immediate in the way it is in RL, it doesn't mean it's necessarily lacking.

I don't like arguing with people so a lot of times I don't react immediately, even in real life. I still use written communication (a pen and paper) to express myself when something important has been weighing on me or I think needs to be discussed. I'll sit down and take the time to get my thoughts in order and figure out how I want to convey my feelings, then write a letter. Afterwards, it leads to a verbal discussion but it's easier because I already got my whole thoughts out there without the interruptions of back and forth arguing.

But even though I don't always react immediately or say what's on my mind in RL, my partner still has some idea that somethings wrong. If I'm angry or upset about something, I might not let it out right away but he would know im mad and I'll talk about it when I'm ready. Or if I'm sad...maybe over sensitive and teary, I might not even know why or be ready to discuss but he would be able to tell I was in a vulnerable mood and react accordingly. You can't replicate that online...you would have to actually 'tell' the other person you were feeling that way...

 

[Iamsubmissive]

No, actually we enjoyed another year or so of rp'ing together before my techie skills, and my computer graphics card, were incapable of keeping up with Second Life updates.

I kept her secret ... was honored that she shared with me.

She had an alt that was female, but online profile explaining her situation. Sadly, there was no place she wanted to be that would welcome her.

Thats awesome that you were mature about it and supportive. It's also very disheartening that others aren't that understanding.

 

[KimGordon67]

No, I'm not working with the assumption that we deliberately change who we are at all, I am just saying that when some of our senses are turned off (touch for sure, smell and taste-matter to a lessor degree, often sight and often sound) that whatever we have left to work with is going to naturally come out a bit different than when working with all of our senses.

You could look at it as if you only going to have an online experience with someone then what does it really matter what that person is like in RL, as you will always only be presenting that one virtual side of yourself to the other person. However if we are comparing the two versions side by side, the RL partner is going to receive the much fuller version of ourselves. If the mind is all that matters, and to some people that is the case, then that is what you'll get online. But to many of us that want the entire package, mind, body, all five senses, immediate imperfect reactions, etc. then there is really no comparison between the two. Flesh and bone or a piece of machinery with a voice and possibly an image coming through it. I'm in no way discounting the online experience, but I am saying that this experience is far from the full meal deal. But otherwise, each side has its own pros and cons. Some people may put more weight on the pros and cons of each to see what works better.

Well, I beg to differ - I say 'different' rather than 'fuller'. For some people, having the physical body less present is a bonus for a range reasons - e.g. the story told above about the person who's body didn't match their sense of who they were at all, so you could say their virtual presence was actually much truer. I personally quite like the fact that I don't need to think about what I look like - and, no matter what you say, we all do it. I think what you're really arguing for is a preference - you have a preference for fleshy sex and relationships with all that that entails. I can go either way, depending on the person - I think the relationship I've described elsewhere would have been quite a different beast in RL, and I suspect not as good. It was certainly a full meal - just sushi rather than burgers.

You're also assuming that people engage all their senses in RL, which they certainly don't with any degree of regularity.

Basically, you're arguing for the book being better than the film. In most instance, most would agree with you, but there are clearly examples where the film as been just as good as the book, and a small number of cases where the film has exceeded the book. You can't generalise from your preference for the book to everyone's experiences of these things - just because that's how you experience the RL vs VL relationship doesn't mean it's like that for everyone.

 

[KimGordon67]

I don't like arguing with people so a lot of times I don't react immediately, even in real life. I still use written communication (a pen and paper) to express myself when something important has been weighing on me or I think needs to be discussed. I'll sit down and take the time to get my thoughts in order and figure out how I want to convey my feelings, then write a letter. Afterwards, it leads to a verbal discussion but it's easier because I already got my whole thoughts out there without the interruptions of back and forth arguing.

But even though I don't always react immediately or say what's on my mind in RL, my partner still has some idea that somethings wrong. If I'm angry or upset about something, I might not let it out right away but he would know im mad and I'll talk about it when I'm ready. Or if I'm sad...maybe over sensitive and teary, I might not even know why or be ready to discuss but he would be able to tell I was in a vulnerable mood and react accordingly. You can't replicate that online...you would have to actually 'tell' the other person you were feeling that way...

LOL - trust me, in the one or two actual relationships I've had online/phone, my partner has known when I'm unhappy without me having to 'tell' him. He could always detect a change in tone, even in my written word. And I've had any number of RL boyfriends who could NOT tell when I was upset about something unless I actually told them.

 

[Iamsubmissive]

LOL - trust me, in the one or two actual relationships I've had online/phone, my partner has known when I'm unhappy without me having to 'tell' him. He could always detect a change in tone, even in my written word. And I've had any number of RL boyfriends who could NOT tell when I was upset about something unless I actually told them.

Hm...I guess I can see that too. And I'll admit that there have been clueless guys in my RL too, but we didn't last long. I'm pretty transparent, so if they had trouble reading me...they weren't putting any effort into it. And thinking back, I did have my online D makes comments like "you sounded like you were in a good mood earlier" or "is anything wrong? In your message it sounded like something was bothering you" just from a casual email. So I guess it all depends on how well you know each other or how attentive they are...

 

[KimGordon67]

Hm...I guess I can see that too. And I'll admit that there have been clueless guys in my RL too, but we didn't last long. I'm pretty transparent, so if they had trouble reading me...they weren't putting any effort into it. And thinking back, I did have my online D makes comments like "you sounded like you were in a good mood earlier" or "is anything wrong? In your message it sounded like something was bothering you" just from a casual email. So I guess it all depends on how well you know each other or haw attentive they are...

It's certainly a skill, and I've been lucky to find guys online who have that skill. But it's obviously a skill in RL too, as is evidenced by the number of guys we've both known who don't possess it. I think a really empathic person will be empathic in any medium.

 

[RubenesqueAphrodite]

<===closed her empathy valve awhile ago..

 

[KimGordon67]

Well, if done properly that's a skill in itself.

<===closed her empathy valve awhile ago..

 

[RubenesqueAphrodite]

Well, if done properly that's a skill in itself.

yeah, well.. I suck at it whether I'm showing empathy, sympathy or indifference. I'm more empathetic than I let on, but I'm hardwired to state the obvious.

I feel like the obvious gets obscured quite often by an unnatural and unnecessary drive to be "tolerant" of everyone and everything.

So, I'm typically the one in the meeting that rolls her eyes when they start speaking "corporate"..

"It is unfortunate that our merger has created a need to consolidate the overlapping department resources."

Um.. Didn't you just say..."We've got too​ many employees now.
Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.!"

It is what it is in all things and can't be any more than that. Flowery language has its place in poetry and Literature.


Don't get me wrong, there are nice ways to say things and mean ways to say things. Then there's what amounts to little more than sophistry designed to win you over to a side that doesn't really exist...

When you weren't arguing to begin with.

 

[SilverBass]

Well, I beg to differ - I say 'different' rather than 'fuller'. For some people, having the physical body less present is a bonus for a range reasons - e.g. the story told above about the person who's body didn't match their sense of who they were at all, so you could say their virtual presence was actually much truer. I personally quite like the fact that I don't need to think about what I look like - and, no matter what you say, we all do it. I think what you're really arguing for is a preference - you have a preference for fleshy sex and relationships with all that that entails. I can go either way, depending on the person - I think the relationship I've described elsewhere would have been quite a different beast in RL, and I suspect not as good. It was certainly a full meal - just sushi rather than burgers.

You're also assuming that people engage all their senses in RL, which they certainly don't with any degree of regularity.

Basically, you're arguing for the book being better than the film. In most instance, most would agree with you, but there are clearly examples where the film as been just as good as the book, and a small number of cases where the film has exceeded the book. You can't generalise from your preference for the book to everyone's experiences of these things - just because that's how you experience the RL vs VL relationship doesn't mean it's like that for everyone.

Really you are backing up my point with some of the things you are saying. Certainly not worrying about how you look does have its advantages. If you haven't taken a shower in a few days your virtual partner won't know about it. Unless you are on video you don't need to even think about what you are wearing or make sure your hair is combed or if you have a zit on your nose. So again, your online partner is getting a piece of you and not the whole package. And in no way am I saying that is a bad thing. This may be exactly why some prefer online only, because they don't want to be fully exposed to their partner or make sure they have just showered.

And keep in mind I am not saying one is better than the other, but rather one is just a much more complete version than the other. Whether that difference is a good thing or a bad thing is an entirely other subject. Though I haven't done the online sex thing, I have certainly made strong friendships online only to find a different person (in some ways, some of which being important) once that we met. For that matter I have also met some people in person first who became friends but lived elsewhere or moved away, and went virtual after that. That has really worked out to be a much more "real" situation as there is no fantasy elements of "filling in the blanks" for what we cannot see or hear (including mannerisms and non verbal communication, etc.) that exists with people we have never met.

 

[KimGordon67]

Really you are backing up my point with some of the things you are saying. Certainly not worrying about how you look does have its advantages. If you haven't taken a shower in a few days your virtual partner won't know about it. Unless you are on video you don't need to even think about what you are wearing or make sure your hair is combed or if you have a zit on your nose. So again, your online partner is getting a piece of you and not the whole package. And in no way am I saying that is a bad thing. This may be exactly why some prefer online only, because they don't want to be fully exposed to their partner or make sure they have just showered.

And keep in mind I am not saying one is better than the other, but rather one is just a much more complete version than the other. Whether that difference is a good thing or a bad thing is an entirely other subject. Though I haven't done the online sex thing, I have certainly made strong friendships online only to find a different person (in some ways, some of which being important) once that we met. For that matter I have also met some people in person first who became friends but lived elsewhere or moved away. That has really worked out to be a much more "real" situation as there is no fantasy elements of "filling in the blanks" for what we cannot see or hear (including mannerisms and non verbal communication, etc.) that exists with people we have never met.

Not at all - the fact that I'm not distracted by worrying about what I look like means I can focus much more on what I'm really wanting to do/say/convey/mean. I AM fully exposed, just in a different way. You're also picking on one particular part of a much fuller response. And again, I've known people who've engaged in extreme management of their appearance in RL, including one acquaintance who would ALWAYS wake up before her partner so she could wash off yesterday's make up and apply today's - he NEVER saw her without make up. If you're that sort of person, the medium isn't going to make a difference.

The fact that you've not engaged in the sort of thing I'm talking about also makes it pretty difficult for you to argue for this - not only are you talking about a preference for book over film, but you're doing so without having seen the film. Why is it so difficult to accept that 'full' (but different) relationships that have as many nuances as physical relationships are possible online? They ARE complete.

 

[SilverBass]

Not at all - the fact that I'm not distracted by worrying about what I look like means I can focus much more on what I'm really wanting to do/say/convey/mean. I AM fully exposed, just in a different way. You're also picking on one particular part of a much fuller response. And again, I've known people who've engaged in extreme management of their appearance in RL, including one acquaintance who would ALWAYS wake up before her partner so she could wash off yesterday's make up and apply today's - he NEVER saw her without make up. If you're that sort of person, the medium isn't going to make a difference.

The fact that you've not engaged in the sort of thing I'm talking about also makes it pretty difficult for you to argue for this - not only are you talking about a preference for book over film, but you're doing so without having seen the film. Why is it so difficult to accept that 'full' (but different) relationships that have as many nuances as physical relationships are possible online? They ARE complete.

Again, like I said, I am not saying one is better than the other. I am talking differences here, not preferences. And I have not had pretend sex online but I have still had very serious relationships online otherwise, so I know what it is like, I have just not added the sexual fantasy aspect to it. So I know what I am talking about having read both the book and having seen the PG-13 film. I full well understand the differences.

You say that you are not distracted by what you look like online which means you can focus more on what you want to say or convey, but the thing is, you are a physical human, you do have a body. Sure you can ignore that aspect of it when you are in the virtual world, but again you are proving my point that you are only sharing a partial version if yourself. Now you can say that this allows you to focus better on what you are saying, but in RL are you saying there is not much going on in your head? Aren't you still full of ideas and emotion and intelligent thought and compassion in RL too? Yes, I know there are differences, but I really doubt that many of us are shells in the real world as opposed to all this depth we have virtually. Now I know I am exaggerating with that fact, and yes I know in some ways it is easier to express ourselves online, but there are other ways where expressing ourselves online is much more limiting, so I'd say that part of it is a wash.

 

[KimGordon67]

Again, like I said, I am not saying one is better than the other. I am talking differences here, not preferences. And I have not had pretend sex online but I have still had very serious relationships online otherwise, so I know what it is like, I have just not added the sexual fantasy aspect to it. So I know what I am talking about having read both the book and having seen the PG-13 film. I full well understand the differences.

You say that you are not distracted by what you look like online which means you can focus more on what you want to say or convey, but the thing is, you are a physical human, you do have a body. Sure you can ignore that aspect of it when you are in the virtual world, but again you are proving my point that you are only sharing a partial version if yourself. Now you can say that this allows you to focus better on what you are saying, but in RL are you saying there is not much going on in your head? Aren't you still full of ideas and emotion and intelligent thought and compassion in RL too? Yes, I know there are differences, but I really doubt that many of us are shells in the real world as opposed to all this depth we have virtually. Now I know I am exaggerating with that fact, and yes I know in some ways it is easier to express ourselves online, but there are other ways where expressing ourselves online is much more limiting, so I'd say that part of it is a wash.

OMFG - it's NOT a partial version of myself - my physical presence is absolutely not guarantee that anyone is getting 'all' of me - what guarantees that is my decision to open up to someone to the point that they have that. You're not in a position to judge how complete that is for me or my partner - you're only able to say it wouldn't be complete for you.

Online/phone expression is not 'more limiting' unless you decide they're limitations. All the things that make physical sex 'complete' are present - intimacy, attention to your partner, thinking about how things feel for them and for you ... if those things aren't present, it's only by virtue of lack of imagination. Yes, there are some things which are absent, like (some) physical sensation, but they're replaced by other things, that create an encounter that is, in itself, complete.

"And I have not had pretend sex online ..." - this right here is where the problem is. What on earth makes online/phone sex 'pretend'? Only your commitment to the notion that there some 'real' sex against which all other interactions are judged as wanting.

 

[KimGordon67]

OMFG - it's NOT a partial version of myself - my physical presence is absolutely not guarantee that anyone is getting 'all' of me - what guarantees that is my decision to open up to someone to the point that they have that. You're not in a position to judge how complete that is for me or my partner - you're only able to say it wouldn't be complete for you.

Online/phone expression is not 'more limiting' unless you decide they're limitations. All the things that make physical sex 'complete' are present - intimacy, attention to your partner, thinking about how things feel for them and for you ... if those things aren't present, it's only by virtue of lack of imagination. Yes, there are some things which are absent, like (some) physical sensation, but they're replaced by other things, that create an encounter that is, in itself, complete.

"And I have not had pretend sex online ..." - this right here is where the problem is. What on earth makes online/phone sex 'pretend'? Only your commitment to the notion that there some 'real' sex against which all other interactions are judged as wanting.

I'm not engaging in this discussion any further. The notion that anyone has access to the universal 'reality' of sex is inherently problematic, and there's no possibility of moving beyond that.