The ghosts in the room

[NaokoSmith]

It's been known for a while that many students in Britain work in the 'sex industry' (mind you, that includes pole dancing) because it's more flexible. Hours don't clash with lectures, they can step back from the job during exam time etc.

This article talks about research saying more men than women students are involved.

http://www.theguardian.com/educatio...dents-sex-work-living-costs-tuition-fee-debts

 

[Carnal_Flower]

This is a contentious topic among feminists. The pro sex work argument is one; not everyone shares it.

It seems to me there’s a sort of conflict.

On the one, you both seem to be making a purely Marxist, materialist argument, i.e., work is work, no matter what it is. So yeah, make it a profession and open it up to taxation and unionization like anything else. Who can’t get with that? That’s understandable.

On the other hand, you thus turn sex into nothing more than an economic object like anything else—a hamburger, a car, a house, etc. You shift the field of ownership around, re-distribute the wealth, but you know you are opening yourself up to the problem of alienation just like any other McJob. So who’s to say in becoming a “sex worker” you’re not just becoming a McSlut or a McCourtesan?

You, who write erotica, which is supposed to be about attaching feeling, emotion, value, and subjectivity to sex.

That’s where the sleight of hand occurs. Er . . . um . . . no, it’s SPECIAL work. It’s more . . . um . . . flexible and um . . . it IS emotional . . . and the worker “enjoys” it. You work very hard to convince yourselves (not everyone else) it’s a free, wonderful choice. Uh huh.

Just like every single time a new market opens up, or one shifts around dramatically, the field of ideology attached to it changes. It’s sold, marketed, packaged, advertised just like a new kind of Big Mac. Certainly anyone can disagree. I’m not convinced the bloggers I’ve seen aren’t just Don Drapers rushing in to capitalize, glamorize, become CEO’s, “re-brand” the sex trade because the wealth is shifting away from the pimps to someone else. And using so-called “art” to do that is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

Absolutely not convinced it all doesn’t contribute to making “sex” soulless, mechanical, alienating just because you’ve redefined it as “work.” Whoo hoo. Now that’s erotic.

After all, we are on an erotica and literature site, not a Marxist site. If we have issues with what all this means for sex and eroticism, not to mention women, this is the place to have issues.

 

[SecondCircle]

This is a contentious topic among feminists. The pro sex work argument is one; not everyone shares it.

It seems to me there’s a sort of conflict.

On the one, you both seem to be making a purely Marxist, materialist argument, i.e., work is work, no matter what it is. So yeah, make it a profession and open it up to taxation and unionization like anything else. Who can’t get with that? That’s understandable.

On the other hand, you thus turn sex into nothing more than an economic object like anything else—a hamburger, a car, a house, etc. You shift the field of ownership around, re-distribute the wealth, but you know you are opening yourself up to the problem of alienation just like any other McJob. So who’s to say in becoming a “sex worker” you’re not just becoming a McSlut or a McCourtesan?

You, who write erotica, which is supposed to be about attaching feeling, emotion, value, and subjectivity to sex.

That’s where the sleight of hand occurs. Er . . . um . . . no, it’s SPECIAL work. It’s more . . . um . . . flexible and um . . . it IS emotional . . . and the worker “enjoys” it. You work very hard to convince yourselves (not everyone else) it’s a free, wonderful choice. Uh huh.

Just like every single time a new market opens up, or one shifts around dramatically, the field of ideology attached to it changes. It’s sold, marketed, packaged, advertised just like a new kind of Big Mac. Certainly anyone can disagree. I’m not convinced the bloggers I’ve seen aren’t just Don Drapers rushing in to capitalize, glamorize, become CEO’s, “re-brand” the sex trade because the wealth is shifting away from the pimps to someone else. And using so-called “art” to do that is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

Absolutely not convinced it all doesn’t contribute to making “sex” soulless, mechanical, alienating just because you’ve redefined it as “work.” Whoo hoo. Now that’s erotic.

After all, we are on an erotica and literature site, not a Marxist site. If we have issues with what all this means for sex and eroticism, not to mention women, this is the place to have issues.

The misconception, I think, is the idea that just because a person does this for work means that they don't enjoy it.

Selling sex has long carried negative connotations. Primarily because we are too familiar with those cases of sex workers that ARE negative. For instance, the young women who felt they had no other choice but to sell their bodies for money, the ones that came from broken homes, the ones that were pulled into a kind of sex trafficking at very young ages, the ones that resorted to these acts to support drug habits, etc. and so on. We've seen these things all too often, and thus associate selling sex with a negative life style. And these tragic cases are indeed a reality.

But I honestly do not believe that every single person that chooses to be a "sex worker" always does it because of negative circumstance. I mean, people are literally telling us the opposite... that there are people that choose this and to some extent, enjoy certain aspects of it.

Think about it... think about the realities of sex nowadays. Couples actually become swingers, who don't mind sharing and playing. Sure the porn industry looks different off screen, but to some extent those porn stars do enjoy what they do to some extent. You don't just DP and deep throat without at least enjoying dick on some level. Hell, Jayden Jaymes cried... BAWLED when she didn't win pornstar of the year. These stars will tell you the cons all day long, and there are cons, but I honestly don't think they'd carry through with hundreds upon hundreds of shoots to make a comfortable living because they had to.

People apparently love buying sex, in one form or another. And there are those actually willing to sell it. Willing to produce it, willing to dance it, willing to film it, willing to enact it.

The very existence of higher class brothels with such security and safety measures implemented meant that someone somewhere up the line wanted to do this, and do it on a quality level. I don't think you join one of these type establishments because you're on your last leg.

There are very very sexual people in the world. Everyone is different. Just because the common folk sneer at this type of activity, or just because we've seen the darker sides of this line of work, doesn't mean there aren't people that are honestly attracted to the work. What one person considers a sin of necessity is another person's thrill, a vice.

And I do not think that every person that "sells sex" is faking every bit of it 100% of the time. Like I said, when you remove the negative connotations that many have drawn of the sex industry, you find people that do find enjoyment in the work.

Some girls "strip" because they break and realize it's just a better way to get money. But some exotic dancers actually love it, they love the rush of feeling exposed, they feel the art in their every choreographed movement, they love the experiences of the people they meet, they love the thrill of turning someone on or making a person feel alive in any way.

It's the same in any line of "sex work". I think that's actually what the OP was pointing to. Illuminating the fact that things are not always as we typically view them. There's this bittersweet tone to the story the woman was telling us. She was giving us a glimpse of the actual stranger than fiction tenderness that can occur in these situations, a glimpse of what we think we already understand... but have no way of knowing unless we've flat out been through it ourselves.

Do we not, here at Lit, sell the illusion of fantasy with our writing? Sure, fiction can bluntly mean "fake" to anyone. But does that make it less of an experience? Does it change the way you feel when you read a really great story? They are fake experiences are they not?

Or aren't they?

Acting or not, I daresay that a level of true fantasy can be met when "selling sex". The give and take in the scenario can still prove a powerful experience, in ways that the common person would never be able to see.

I'be seen exotic dancers that just shook their tits and took your money.

But I've also seen dancers make the world disappear, and wrap you in a trance that makes you forget everything but her beautiful movements.

Nothing is simply black and white. That is what we must accept.

 

[Rozalin_0123]

This is a contentious topic among feminists. The pro sex work argument is one; not everyone shares it.

It seems to me there’s a sort of conflict.

On the one, you both seem to be making a purely Marxist, materialist argument, i.e., work is work, no matter what it is. So yeah, make it a profession and open it up to taxation and unionization like anything else. Who can’t get with that? That’s understandable.

On the other hand, you thus turn sex into nothing more than an economic object like anything else—a hamburger, a car, a house, etc. You shift the field of ownership around, re-distribute the wealth, but you know you are opening yourself up to the problem of alienation just like any other McJob. So who’s to say in becoming a “sex worker” you’re not just becoming a McSlut or a McCourtesan?

You, who write erotica, which is supposed to be about attaching feeling, emotion, value, and subjectivity to sex.

That’s where the sleight of hand occurs. Er . . . um . . . no, it’s SPECIAL work. It’s more . . . um . . . flexible and um . . . it IS emotional . . . and the worker “enjoys” it. You work very hard to convince yourselves (not everyone else) it’s a free, wonderful choice. Uh huh.

Just like every single time a new market opens up, or one shifts around dramatically, the field of ideology attached to it changes. It’s sold, marketed, packaged, advertised just like a new kind of Big Mac. Certainly anyone can disagree. I’m not convinced the bloggers I’ve seen aren’t just Don Drapers rushing in to capitalize, glamorize, become CEO’s, “re-brand” the sex trade because the wealth is shifting away from the pimps to someone else. And using so-called “art” to do that is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

Absolutely not convinced it all doesn’t contribute to making “sex” soulless, mechanical, alienating just because you’ve redefined it as “work.” Whoo hoo. Now that’s erotic.

After all, we are on an erotica and literature site, not a Marxist site. If we have issues with what all this means for sex and eroticism, not to mention women, this is the place to have issues.

Now who's in La la land?

Sex can be many things. Sex can be beautiful and emotional and life changing. It can also be emotionless and animalistic. People have different levels of emotional needs when it comes to sex and they change all the time.

Take LC's example for instance. He didn't want an emotional connection. He wanted to fuck the hell out of someone and walk away. Two consenting adults doing something they want for their own reasons. I see no problem or shame in that.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm sure no amount of evidence or personal experiences will convince you otherwise, but think about what you're really saying here. You're saying that the woman in the blog is full of it, that the emotions she speaks of are fake. How do you know? What do you base this on? Who are you to say what someone else feels on any given subject?

 

[Handley_Page]

I just love the concept of McSlut or McWhore.

 

[Bramblethorn]

On the one, you both seem to be making a purely Marxist, materialist argument, i.e., work is work, no matter what it is. So yeah, make it a profession and open it up to taxation and unionization like anything else. Who can’t get with that? That’s understandable.

I'm not sure "Marxist" is the word for that (you'd have to ask a Marxist to confirm that!) but otherwise, yes, that's pretty much my position.

On the other hand, you thus turn sex into nothing more than an economic object like anything else—a hamburger, a car, a house, etc.

... a song, a novel, a painting? All those things can be bought, and certainly can be considered economic objects. But it doesn't make them only economic objects. Nobody argues that music loses all its meaning just because the performer got paid.

You shift the field of ownership around, re-distribute the wealth, but you know you are opening yourself up to the problem of alienation just like any other McJob. So who’s to say in becoming a “sex worker” you’re not just becoming a McSlut or a McCourtesan?

Sex certainly can be joyless and empty. But the fact that somebody's getting paid for it is neither necessary or sufficient for that to happen. And frankly, if you are just doing it for the money, at least you're probably getting paid better than McDonald's.

You, who write erotica, which is supposed to be about attaching feeling, emotion, value, and subjectivity to sex.

That’s where the sleight of hand occurs. Er . . . um . . . no, it’s SPECIAL work. It’s more . . . um . . . flexible and um . . . it IS emotional . . . and the worker “enjoys” it. You work very hard to convince yourselves (not everyone else) it’s a free, wonderful choice. Uh huh.

I don't know how to break this to you, but: you are not telepathic. When you profess to know somebody else's mind better than they do themselves, you'd better offer some very solid evidence if you want to be taken seriously. Right now all I'm seeing is "well I can't imagine how sex work could be fulfilling for anybody, therefore it's not".

Me, I can't understand how anybody would want to drink beer. I hate the feeling of being tipsy, and every beer I've ever tried tasted revolting. But I accept that there's more than one type of person in the world, and some can enjoy the things I don't.

I’m not convinced the bloggers I’ve seen aren’t just Don Drapers rushing in to capitalize, glamorize, become CEO’s, “re-brand” the sex trade because the wealth is shifting away from the pimps to someone else.

What would they need to do to convince you?

After all, we are on an erotica and literature site, not a Marxist site. If we have issues with what all this means for sex and eroticism, not to mention women, this is the place to have issues.

...really not convinced that's what Marxism means.

(As for what de-stigmatising sex work means for women: mostly it means improved safety. I'm cool with that.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

Most legal prostitutes in the US prefer the term "courtesan". It has served as a way to "dodge" the negative connotations of what they really do. A good portion of street walkers go by "escorts" for the same reason. It's interesting that Australian prostitutes use "sex worker" in a completely different approach. Perhaps prostitutes here should do the same, seeing as how they share the common goal of being recognized as a legitimate profession.

As far as I know, "sex worker" is commonly used in the USA too; see e.g. http://www.swopusa.org/ & http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/activists-ap-replace-prostitute-sex-worker-article-1.1975176 . I think the push to use it instead of "prostitute" may have actually started there.

But it may depend on where you are. Now I check, "courtesan" does indeed seem to be popular in Nevada - I think that's still the only place in the USA where it's legal?

I think the last time I heard "courtesan" in Australia was watching Moulin Rouge ;-)

Even the term "stripper" shares the same negative connotations/quote]

Yup. Does the USA use "exotic dancer" as a euphemism?

It is my wish that the world at large take a moment to better educate themselves about what really goes on with women in any sex or "adult" occupation. Maybe then we can take the right steps to get these women off the street and into a better protected environment where they can still provide their "service." The women would be safer, the clients would be safer, the government can tax the shit out of it, everyone is happy.

Agreed (and noting that this also benefits male sex workers).

Fun fact - in Australia, legal sex workers have lower rates of sexually transmitted infections than the general population.

 

[redzinger]

I just love the concept of McSlut or McWhore.

PLOT BUNNY ALERT!!!

 

[Rozalin_0123]

As far as I know, "sex worker" is commonly used in the USA too; see e.g. http://www.swopusa.org/ & http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/activists-ap-replace-prostitute-sex-worker-article-1.1975176 . I think the push to use it instead of "prostitute" may have actually started there.

But it may depend on where you are. Now I check, "courtesan" does indeed seem to be popular in Nevada - I think that's still the only place in the USA where it's legal?

I think the last time I heard "courtesan" in Australia was watching Moulin Rouge ;-)

Even the term "stripper" shares the same negative connotations/quote]

Yup. Does the USA use "exotic dancer" as a euphemism?



Agreed (and noting that this also benefits male sex workers).

Fun fact - in Australia, legal sex workers have lower rates of sexually transmitted infections than the general population.

Nice sources! The girl I talk to semi-regularly is from Nevada and she said they all use "courtesan". Back here in Ohio, when I see ads for such services they are almost always referred to as "escorts". Could very well be depend on location.

Yes, Nevada is the only state in the US to have legalized prostitution. However, one misconception is that it is legal everywhere in Nevada, made popular with Las Vegas' slogan "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas." Funny thing, prostitution is illegal within the city limits of Las Vegas. The law states that in order for a brothel to be approved as a legally established facility, it cannot be in a county with a population higher than 200,000. The closest legal brothel to Las Vegas is 60 miles away.

Exotic dancer is indeed a euphemism here, but only really among female strippers. Male strippers mostly just use "stripper". Strip clubs are "Gentlemen's Clubs" which is outdated terminology considering it is rare for me to visit a strip club and be the only female patron. All male strip clubs are referred to as "Chippendales" which is the actual name of one chain of clubs, but people use it as the universal name for such establishments.

Another fun fact - The number of infections of HIV among sex workers in legal brothels in Nevada is zero, and has been zero since 1984 when HIV screenings became mandatory. In the same period of time, porn stars in Los Angeles have had more cases of gonorrhea and chlamydia than sex workers in legal brothels in Nevada.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...-stars-higher-than-in-nevada-prostitutes.html

 

[Handley_Page]

PLOT BUNNY ALERT!!!

Can you imagine the row in the House over taxation of Prostitutes and so on ?


PS. For the benefit of those readers outside the UK, I should point out that Yes, England does have known brothels.

 

[oggbashan]

Can you imagine the row in the House over taxation of Prostitutes and so on ?


PS. For the benefit of those readers outside the UK, I should point out that Yes, England does have known brothels.

And if the woman is working alone or with two or three others, not on the street, it is a legal activity and she can be taxed on her earnings. See my earlier post about the 'sex worker' who joined our Chamber of Commerce. It is illegal to live off a prostitute's earnings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

[Bramblethorn]

[Nice sources! The girl I talk to semi-regularly is from Nevada and she said they all use "courtesan". Back here in Ohio, when I see ads for such services they are almost always referred to as "escorts". Could very well be depend on location.

May be a distinction of advertising vs activism.

If you're advertising in a jurisdiction where sex for money is illegal, "sex worker" is an invitation to be arrested. "Escort" is conveniently ambiguous - disclaimers like "this is a non-sexual service, your money buys my company, anything else that happens is a non-commercial decision between two adults" (nudge nudge, wink wink).

On the other hand, if you're advocating for sex work to be legalised, that ambiguity is unhelpful.

Professional dommes have a similar thing - in some places they have to maintain the fiction that it's a purely non-sexual service, just good old non-sexual flogging etc etc. In others they're free to present it as a sexual service.

Exotic dancer is indeed a euphemism here, but only really among female strippers. Male strippers mostly just use "stripper". Strip clubs are "Gentlemen's Clubs" which is outdated terminology considering it is rare for me to visit a strip club and be the only female patron. All male strip clubs are referred to as "Chippendales" which is the actual name of one chain of clubs, but people use it as the universal name for such establishments.

Yeah, we have "gentlemen's clubs" here; my ex's sister put herself through med school waiting tables in one.

And if the woman is working alone or with two or three others, not on the street, it is a legal activity and she can be taxed on her earnings. See my earlier post about the 'sex worker' who joined our Chamber of Commerce. It is illegal to live off a prostitute's earnings.

I'm curious - if a sex worker's living with her boyfriend and he loses his job, does that make it illegal for her to support him until he finds another job?

 

[oggbashan]

...


I'm curious - if a sex worker's living with her boyfriend and he loses his job, does that make it illegal for her to support him until he finds another job?

Yes. He could be prosecuted.

But he could claim unemployment benefit.

However any UK prostitute 'living' with a boyfriend, whether he is employed or not, runs the risk that he could be prosecuted for living from immoral earnings. Until proven otherwise, it is assumed that he is her pimp.

 

[Rozalin_0123]

Yes. He could be prosecuted.

But he could claim unemployment benefit.

However any UK prostitute 'living' with a boyfriend, whether he is employed or not, runs the risk that he could be prosecuted for living from immoral earnings. Until proven otherwise, it is assumed that he is her pimp.

That's pretty messed up! How would he even go about proving his innocence? What if a boyfriend is unaware of his girlfriend's activities? I've worked with dancers who's SO wasn't aware of their "night job". What happens when the gender roles are switched? Do they assume she is the pimp?

Thank you for your input on the subject, Ogg. There's been several things I didn't know about in the UK until you pointed them out.

 

[lovecraft68]

The way it works with the escorts as far as the law goes is you pay however much and what they say is you are paying for their company/conversation only, that's it.

If sex is had its because you were just so damn irresistible, the escort had to have you,

But that's the end around for when LE is perusing Back page(where most of them operate here in RI) its companionship you are paying for sex 'just happens'

In general what I'm seeing in this thread is it being way to romanticized, too many here buying into erotica stories, erotic movies and escorts/pros/courtesan's whatever...playing the persona of the "sensitive" whore.

all these "I know someone" yeah, well those someone's....what are they going to say "God, its so fucking mechanical, God. its boring, its disgusting, wish I could find another way....no they say "oh, this is soooo hot." Born at night, not last night.

It is what it is, a service and when sex is had for pay constantly it is no longer an act of passion or joy or compassion-as some here thing hookers are priests/therapists-its sex ladies and gentlemen.

Amd for the ones that play therapist....if you think they really care? Then A-they are doinga great job of acting and B? You're pretty pathetic....oh, wait we're dealing with men...pathetic is the synonym for men in these cases. Paying for sex is one thing, paying for them to be your girlfriend and coddle you is sad.

When a woman is a stripper and guys pay to see them strip and dance and etc...know who is pathetic? Not the woman shaking her tits for your money, you the jack ass paying for it.

Guys in $1000 suits acting like they're something and paying for to cum in their pants while a girl wiggles on them...oh, please you're so awesome I can't stand it.

This whole conversation subliminally reflects cold male insecurity. Can't just pay for sex, but have to believe the hooker cares and the good hookers? Play it to the bone, but they don't mean it.

But guys? Too stupid to believe that.

I wonder what this conversation would be if it was not being held on what is essentially a sex site by people claiming to be sex workers.strippers. long time johns, "I worked here...." "I know someone"

reality checks at the door in internat conversations, especially here where everyone has to jockey for "I have the most inside knowledge sexual experience etc..."

When I paid for sex in the past, it never once crossed my mind "Is she into it, does she "like" me? She's really friendly, bet I'm special.

I was there to fuck, they were there to let me for a price, no drama, no BS and that's what it was intended for. If a guy is paying for sex and "aww, honey" then that means they're to pathetic to get a girlfriend.

 

[oggbashan]

That's pretty messed up! How would he even go about proving his innocence? What if a boyfriend is unaware of his girlfriend's activities? I've worked with dancers who's SO wasn't aware of their "night job". What happens when the gender roles are switched? Do they assume she is the pimp?

Thank you for your input on the subject, Ogg. There's been several things I didn't know about in the UK until you pointed them out.

The UK government has tried several times in recent years to sort out the legislation on prostitution. All they have actually done is 1. make it illegal to solicit a woman, and 2. make it a criminal offence to have sex with a prostitute who has been forced into prostitution, even if her customer is unaware that she/he is an unwilling sex worker. Ignorance is NO defence for 2.

They examined legal prostitution in Europe and concluded that there were no benefits for the sex workers as a whole.

From the link in my post #36 above:

Before 1 April 2010, it was illegal for a customer to kerb crawl/solicit only if this was done "persistently", or "in a manner likely to cause annoyance". Today, all forms of public solicitation by a customer are illegal, regardless of the manner in which the prostitute was solicited. The act also makes it an offence for someone to pay or promise to pay a prostitute who has been subject to "exploitive conduct". The law now applies to male as well as female prostitutes because the term "common prostitute" has been replaced with "person". Before 1 April 2010, a prostitute was committing a crime by soliciting/loitering in a public place more than once in a period of one month. Today, he/she commits a crime if he/she does it more than once in a period of three months.

 

[JKendallDane]

I'm really enjoying following this conversation. Probably more so to snicker at the completely inaccurate claims of some people about what the 'Money for sex' business is actually like than the ones that do have real world experience and have been sharing it.

A half a lifetime ago I dated a male stripper for about four months (cute as hell and dense as a brick) and then ended up living for year with a twenty-three-year-old guy that had been selling himself on the streets of Ft. Lauderdale since he was sixteen (one of the most spiritual and intelligent young men I've ever met). One of my best friends was married to an exotic dancer for five years and the stories she (and he) told me come very close to what Roz has been saying.

Trust me, there are no nice little boxes or perfect stereotypes you can wedge someone into that has lived that life. Each person's story is as different as their motivations. Sometimes it fits the seamy underbelly Hollywood likes to present, and sometimes it is just a matter of convenience and well-thought-out choices. But to broad-brush either male or female sex workers as trash and/or "having made bad choices" is about as wrong as you can be. With the "industry" running the range of cracked-out "Five Dollar Doris" to the Mayflower Madam, you shouldn't need much more validation.

Please carry on...this thread is a really good one.

.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Pippa O'Sullivan

Pippa O'Sullivan was her mother and father's daughter who died, aged 28. That's too young to die.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ppa-O-Sullivan-dies-mental-health-battle.html

Let's not collect stones like monks in high places, let's not spit on her grave before she's even in it, let's not burn her books and paint her red.

We should respect a young woman who did what she did, and died young.

 

[Rozalin_0123]

In general what I'm seeing in this thread is it being way to romanticized, too many here buying into erotica stories, erotic movies and escorts/pros/courtesan's whatever...playing the persona of the "sensitive" whore.

all these "I know someone" yeah, well those someone's....what are they going to say "God, its so fucking mechanical, God. its boring, its disgusting, wish I could find another way....no they say "oh, this is soooo hot." Born at night, not last night.

For every blog a prostitute writes that says she loves what she does, I could probably Google five or more that say the opposite. Romanticizing prostitution wasn't even the point in the OP, nor has it been since. The point has always been that SOME (read a very small minority) enjoy being a prosititute and that SOME do actually have empathy for their clients.

It is what it is, a service and when sex is had for pay constantly it is no longer an act of passion or joy or compassion-as some here thing hookers are priests/therapists-its sex ladies and gentlemen.

Just because it was only sex for you, doesn't mean it's the same for someone else. Being a stripper is as close to being a prostitute as it gets. I danced naked in strangers' laps constantly and my passion and the joy I got from it didn't become mechanical. Sorry. I haven't danced on stage for almost 15 years, yet I pole-dance in my house as a means to stay fit. I still visit strip clubs all over the country with my husband and wife. I enjoy watching them dance as well as hearing their stories. If I didn't enjoy it, if I didn't have a passion for it, why would I still be engaging in it? Better question: why would I waste my time defending it?

Amd for the ones that play therapist....if you think they really care? Then A-they are doinga great job of acting and B? You're pretty pathetic....oh, wait we're dealing with men...pathetic is the synonym for men in these cases. Paying for sex is one thing, paying for them to be your girlfriend and coddle you is sad.

Do you know what it's like to have a complete stranger pour their heart out to you? How about multiple strangers, each with their own personal story to tell on a weekly basis? How about the ones who show pictures of their deceased spouse laying in a hospital bed, and go on to tell you that they've been gone for years and don't know how to move on with their lives? How about the men who've been cheated on and lost their lives in an ugly divorce? Or how about amputees wearing their veterans uniforms?

It is easy to cast any of them aside. It's even easier to take advantage of them. But it's another to show compassion. Giving a shit cost me nothing either way. Hearing their tales was heartbreaking at times. They've cried, I've cried. To say they are "pathetic" is insulting.

This whole conversation subliminally reflects cold male insecurity. Can't just pay for sex, but have to believe the hooker cares and the good hookers? Play it to the bone, but they don't mean it.

I have no doubt that some play it off without giving a crap. But I also refuse to believe they are all like that after my personal experience in adult entertainment alone, not even mentioning testimonials from real prostitutes. I know what I felt. You don't. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I wonder what this conversation would be if it was not being held on what is essentially a sex site by people claiming to be sex workers.strippers. long time johns, "I worked here...." "I know someone"

Google it. You'll find plenty of sources on both sides of the debate.

reality checks at the door in internat conversations, especially here where everyone has to jockey for "I have the most inside knowledge sexual experience etc..."

And you would be the frontrunner, wouldn't you?

When I paid for sex in the past, it never once crossed my mind "Is she into it, does she "like" me? She's really friendly, bet I'm special.

Yet you made it a point to say the girl thought you were "more fun". Tell me, what did she do to convince you that it wasn't an act?

I was there to fuck, they were there to let me for a price, no drama, no BS and that's what it was intended for. If a guy is paying for sex and "aww, honey" then that means they're to pathetic to get a girlfriend.

Your reasons for hiring a prostitute are just as valid as those who hire one for companionship, to fulfill a fantasy, to try something new with their partner, or any other reason. Saying you're somehow above them makes YOU pathetic in my eyes.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

So does that mean, if you had a daughter, when it comes time to taking her around to colleges, figuring out her life, that's also going to include taking her around to a ranch--I mean brothel--and discussing how this could be a fulfilling possible life choice for her? Introducing her around, explaining the ups and downs, meeting some girls, and offering sex work/prostitution whatever you want to call it, as an alternative to a McJob? If not, why not? Would you want to hold up sex work as model for young women?

It's true, sex work can mean many things, but what it is in essence is (talking about some form of intercourse, not "just talking" or not just stripping, for money): open your mouth, legs, ass, let a man/woman do what they want, and get paid. Lather, rinse, repeat. That's it in its essence. It does not have to be anything more. it does not have to, and usually does not, involve your personhood, mind, emotions, anything. That's what the "work" entails: all you have to do, as a woman, is be a hole(s) for someone to use, period. It can be more, but if it's not that on a pretty regular basis, your career is not going to go on for very long.

Shut up, bitch, and open your mouth. Grunt, splash, here's $20. Awesome. Workers unite. I don't care what people do with their bodies, go for it. It should be legal and healthy, but I don't see it as much more. A bartender hears a lot of personal stories, too, but that's because he's standing behind a bar pouring them drinks.

The "romanticization" that I see is skirting that basic exchange.

For every blog a prostitute writes that says she loves what she does, I could probably Google five or more that say the opposite. Romanticizing prostitution wasn't even the point in the OP, nor has it been since. The point has always been that SOME (read a very small minority) enjoy being a prosititute and that SOME do actually have empathy for their clients.



Just because it was only sex for you, doesn't mean it's the same for someone else. Being a stripper is as close to being a prostitute as it gets. I danced naked in strangers' laps constantly and my passion and the joy I got from it didn't become mechanical. Sorry. I haven't danced on stage for almost 15 years, yet I pole-dance in my house as a means to stay fit. I still visit strip clubs all over the country with my husband and wife. I enjoy watching them dance as well as hearing their stories. If I didn't enjoy it, if I didn't have a passion for it, why would I still be engaging in it? Better question: why would I waste my time defending it?



Do you know what it's like to have a complete stranger pour their heart out to you? How about multiple strangers, each with their own personal story to tell on a weekly basis? How about the ones who show pictures of their deceased spouse laying in a hospital bed, and go on to tell you that they've been gone for years and don't know how to move on with their lives? How about the men who've been cheated on and lost their lives in an ugly divorce? Or how about amputees wearing their veterans uniforms?

It is easy to cast any of them aside. It's even easier to take advantage of them. But it's another to show compassion. Giving a shit cost me nothing either way. Hearing their tales was heartbreaking at times. They've cried, I've cried. To say they are "pathetic" is insulting.



I have no doubt that some play it off without giving a crap. But I also refuse to believe they are all like that after my personal experience in adult entertainment alone, not even mentioning testimonials from real prostitutes. I know what I felt. You don't. Stop putting words in my mouth.



Google it. You'll find plenty of sources on both sides of the debate.



And you would be the frontrunner, wouldn't you?



Yet you made it a point to say the girl thought you were "more fun". Tell me, what did she do to convince you that it wasn't an act?



Your reasons for hiring a prostitute are just as valid as those who hire one for companionship, to fulfill a fantasy, to try something new with their partner, or any other reason. Saying you're somehow above them makes YOU pathetic in my eyes.

 

[SecondCircle]

Does this then mean that if your supposed daughter, who attends college and maintains grades and has a career in mind, tells you that she's a call girl/stripper/escort/sex worker on the side and really actually finds a level of enjoyment in her work... that you would shun her and think of her as a cum guzzling whore? If she attempted to tell you that it wasn't as soulless as you try to make it out to be, would you dismiss her and everything she said because you already have it made up in your mind that all sex workers are phonies and lowlifes? Do you tell her how sickening she is? That no matter what she "imagines" or "romanticizes", she's just a cum dumpster for hire?

So does that mean, if you had a daughter, when it comes time to taking her around to colleges, figuring out her life, that's also going to include taking her around to a ranch--I mean brothel--and discussing how this could be a fulfilling possible life choice for her? Introducing her around, explaining the ups and downs, meeting some girls, and offering sex work/prostitution whatever you want to call it, as an alternative to a McJob? If not, why not? Would you want to hold up sex work as model for young women?

It's true, sex work can mean many things, but what it is in essence is (talking about some form of intercourse, not "just talking" or not just stripping, for money): open your mouth, legs, ass, let a man/woman do what they want, and get paid. Lather, rinse, repeat. That's it in its essence. It does not have to be anything more. it does not have to, and usually does not, involve your personhood, mind, emotions, anything. That's what the "work" entails: all you have to do, as a woman, is be a hole(s) for someone to use, period. It can be more, but if it's not that on a pretty regular basis, your career is not going to go on for very long.

Shut up, bitch, and open your mouth. Grunt, splash, here's $20. Awesome. Workers unite. I don't care what people do with their bodies, go for it. It should be legal and healthy, but I don't see it as much more. A bartender hears a lot of personal stories, too, but that's because he's standing behind a bar pouring them drinks.

The "romanticization" that I see is skirting that basic exchange.

 

[Rozalin_0123]

So does that mean, if you had a daughter, when it comes time to taking her around to colleges, figuring out her life, that's also going to include taking her around to a ranch--I mean brothel--and discussing how this could be a fulfilling possible life choice for her? Introducing her around, explaining the ups and downs, meeting some girls, and offering sex work/prostitution whatever you want to call it, as an alternative to a McJob? If not, why not? Would you want to hold up sex work as model for young women?

It's true, sex work can mean many things, but what it is in essence is (talking about some form of intercourse, not "just talking" or not just stripping, for money): open your mouth, legs, ass, let a man/woman do what they want, and get paid. Lather, rinse, repeat. That's it in its essence. It does not have to be anything more. it does not have to, and usually does not, involve your personhood, mind, emotions, anything. That's what the "work" entails: all you have to do, as a woman, is be a hole(s) for someone to use, period. It can be more, but if it's not that on a pretty regular basis, your career is not going to go on for very long.

Shut up, bitch, and open your mouth. Grunt, splash, here's $20. Awesome. Workers unite. I don't care what people do with their bodies, go for it. It should be legal and healthy, but I don't see it as much more. A bartender hears a lot of personal stories, too, but that's because he's standing behind a bar pouring them drinks.

The "romanticization" that I see is skirting that basic exchange.

There are a lot of factors here so let me break it down for you.

I have a daughter, yes, who is six. I'm doing the best of my ability to raise her to be educated, and open minded. Our family structure requires being open minded. When she becomes of age, I will do everything in my power to assist her in making the right choices for herself.

Her college tuition is already paid for. Prostitution is illegal in Ohio. That gives her little incentive to get into sex work.

But let's back up. Let's say her tuition wasn't paid for, and we lived in Nevada.

I'm not one of those parents who will shelter her children from things in the world like they don't exist. When she becomes of age, I will explain to her that sex is a beautiful, wonderful thing, but it can also be dangerous. I will also explain that I used to be a stripper and tell her the reasons why I chose to do that, the benefits, and the negative aspects. I will also inform her of sex work, the pros and cons, the difference between legal and illegal sex work, and stress that her safty should be her number one priority in any job.

In the end, it falls on her to make the right choice for her. Being a parent is to protect and educate your kids and steer in the right direction, that direction being a good person and being a contribution to society. If she says, "Mom, I want to be a stripper," Or, "Mom, I want to work at a brothel," I would support her decision. I would then go with her to whereever she was considering, and help her make a safe, informed decision.

Edit: and on a side note, if she wanted to get into sex work while living in Ohio, I would discourage it because it is illegal and there are greater risks. If she came home one day and said "Mom, I'm a prostitute," I would love her the same as I always have.

 

[JKendallDane]

It's true, sex work can mean many things, but what it is in essence is (talking about some form of intercourse, not "just talking" or not just stripping, for money): open your mouth, legs, ass, let a man/woman do what they want, and get paid. Lather, rinse, repeat. That's it in its essence. It does not have to be anything more. it does not have to, and usually does not, involve your personhood, mind, emotions, anything. That's what the "work" entails: all you have to do, as a woman, is be a hole(s) for someone to use, period. It can be more, but if it's not that on a pretty regular basis, your career is not going to go on for very long.

A week ago I might have somewhat agreed with a few parts of that spiel. Then on Friday night I saw the short film 'Pretty Boy' at our local LGBT Film Festival. (that link is just the trailer)

The basic plot is a virgin, closeted gay boy has Dad hire him a prostitute to "make him a real man." When he doesn't react as most teens having free pussy pushed in his face, she gets him talking and he eventually confesses his real self to her. In the process of the evening, she helps him realize what's important and that love is love no matter the body parts involved. He leaves the motel room hours and hours later with his virginity still intact but with his mind completely clear as to who and what he is and that his attraction is perfectly natural. All because sometimes talking is what a prostitute does best.

It was a very eye-opening movie from both the standpoint of gay issues and also at telling how "sluts for pay" (as you seem to want to continuously pigeonhole them) are often far more in tune with personhood, minds, emotions, and reality than the people that hire them or the shrinks their customers may be...or maybe should be...going to.

To say this kind of thing doesn't happen and that sex workers are just cum depositories says you've never walked on that side of the street enough to even trip over reality.


.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

When I was stationed in Germany as a young man defending democracy for all you fucks who don't even bother to vote (and for the fucks who waste their time voting, LOL), I frequented several brothels that were in Frankfurt. I had a great time.

Each time, I spent 50 marks, which was around $16 with the very favorable exchange rate. One night, I visited the same girl three times, which I know she found remarkable, except she was that gorgeous.

Mind you, I was in the military at the time. Around the same age as most of the prostitutes, and in a great shape. I'm sure doing me wasn't anywhere close as horrid as doing some 50+ businessman who could truly afford to throw away money on cheap pussy.

I found each of the women from whom I received a half and half from to be 1) Gorgeous. 2) Seemingly appreciative of my business. And 3) worth substantially more than the 10% of my paycheck I was offering.

It was clearly a business relationship. We were exchanging cash for admittance into her womanly parts. Why did she choose to do such a profession? It wasn't my concern. Since all the women I met appeared to be German nationals, I didn't give it a second thought beyond: "They are very kind to offer this service."

That's still my attitude and it seems to serve me well. I don't know why any man or woman would offer to trade sex for cash, but dammit: God bless them for doing it! Especially if they choose to do it. Admittedly, some women may feel as if they have few options for earning a certain level of income, except by trading their sexual favors for the pleasure of a man. I'm okay with that. I hate it if they feel trapped, but if that's their choice, I treated them with kindness and respect.

If I'm the exception, fine. But my gut tells me that I'm not.

 

[Handley_Page]

Does this then mean that if your supposed daughter, who attends college and maintains grades and has a career in mind, tells you that she's a call girl/stripper/escort/sex worker on the side and really actually finds a level of enjoyment in her work... that you would shun her and think of her as a cum guzzling whore?
If she attempted to tell you that it wasn't as soulless as you try to make it out to be, would you dismiss her and everything she said because you already have it made up in your mind that all sex workers are phonies and lowlifes?
Do you tell her how sickening she is? That no matter what she "imagines" or "romanticizes", she's just a cum dumpster for hire?

Unfortunately, the parents of that university student (a year or two ago) who blew the whistle and admitted she paid for her education 'on her back', did not see fit to reveal their feelings on the subject, as I can recall.
Perhaps the papers were a little reticent or afreared to ask.

Still a whore, though, surely ? I wonder more about what her future husband might feel.
[Yes, that may be a bit mean, but its not an uncommon view, even in these more liberated times.]