Your "belief" is not more important than my reality.

[StrangeLife]

I'm assuming strange life is still arguing under the assumption that birth control only has one reason/purpose....for women to be slutty!!

Right strange life??

No. It has the purpose of permitting them to have recreational sex ad libido.


Which hopefully will turn some of them into sluts...

I think you're confusing the insurance industry with credit unions. Insurance is a commercial product. I do find it amusing though, that you say on the one hand you feel free to tell someone whose cover you don't approve of, that they can "take a hike and go shovel shit to pay their own bills.", and in almost the same breath, unironically rail against "self-centered narcissists brimming with entitlement"

And how is labelling me as a bad person because I refuse to pay your bills not "entitlement?"

This is what we call a straw man argument - Misrepresenting someone's position in order to make it easier to attack.

I was not making any assumptions about you, except for the observation that you appear to have people of my opinion pre-sorted in a specific category and appear frustrated that I don't display all the other negative traits you'd expect. So the straw man argument doesn't apply here, but you could be accused of committing an illicit negative fallacy though...

It's dishonest and what it says about you is that you don't have a legitimate counterargument to offer - it's pretty much the same as conceding the point. Your fictitious girl and her imaginary situation have got bugger all to do with the rights and wrongs of providing birth control on health insurance - if anything, the example you've pulled out of your arse supports such provision. if birth control were readily available, unintended pregnancies would be a lot rarer - I don't hear you railing at blokes for impregnating girls unintentionally either.

That girl is not "fictitious." She's plentiful and she has everything to do with the subject.

Don't you see: She's the bait.

Just like kids are used as the bait for introducing censorship and Osama was used as the bait for making us give up freedom for more security, that girl is the bait for transferring more control with our money to corporate and governmental systems.

That's how you boil a frog... and they have you, Phrodeau, Phelia and Lori simmering in the pot already together with several others. Hell, even Botany who otherwise ain't so easy to blind. Ever read the Emperors New Clothes? Don't bother - you're living it...

 

[BotanyBoy]

No. It has the purpose of permitting them to have recreational sex ad libido.

You're operating under a falsehood.....you do know there are numerous diseases and conditions that both men and women are afflicted by where birth control is used therapeutically to treat said conditions right?

Oh wait....you didn't consider that did you? Nope...you screamed sluts and cried because it upped your bill by about 0.000000001 cents. Real mature......

 

[smallgirl]

I just really don't see the big deal about birth control being covered.

A person eats fried foods for 40 years, knowing it causes high cholesterol, and goes on meds to lower it. Should it not be covered because he or she knew the risks?

Someone smothers there food in salt knowing they may develop high blood pressure...do we not cover their meds to lower it because they knew the risks and ate too much salt anyway?

Of course not....every argument against birth control being covered could be made for EVERY medicine to treat EVERY condition.

So....if you don't want my daughters birth control covered, lets drop all the cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetic medications because to a certain point all those conditions are PREVENTABLE ....just like getting knocked up.

If you are against coverage for birth control because its a type of "abortion" and against your religious beliefs, well there's no place for that in this argument....separation of church and state and all that good stuff.

Just my opinion on it.

 

[ForkedTongue]

I wonder if my insurance dime pays to treat Reese's Peanut Butter Cups induced heart disease?

^^this.

 

[Lorilei]

Sex is not "just" recreational or procreational.

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/sex-and-health

http://www.womansday.com/sex-relationships/sex-tips/8-surprising-health-benefits-of-sex-102017

http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Why-Having-Sex-20-Good-Health-Reasons-71825.shtml

 

[StrangeLife]

If sex is a hobby, then wearing clothes is a hobby and sleeping under a roof is a hobby.

Erm... no!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_tFI9HtBESRo/S9cFk709AfI/AAAAAAAAHWM/lYIyoeFGbPA/s1600/Natural+wonders+of+the+world++Nudists+enjoy+day+trip+to+remote+island+off+the+coast+of+Wales+1.jpg

And if these things are all hobbies, the Hobby Lobby should be the place to find the items those hobbyists need.

You can get all the remedies for great and carefree sex at your local 24 hours drug store. Or get a friggin 3 year implant - even cheaper and fully automatic as well. You don't even have to swallow anything (unless you really want to).

There is no excuse.

It's cheap, it's easy, it's available.

What about those where it isn't recreational? Ohhhhh forgot all about those people....fuck them right? You know you're wrong as fuck that's why you won't answer me....hiding like a little bitch because you know your position is weak, because it's based upon the assumption that BC = promiscuity. Which is WRONG.

Sex is either....

- for procreation
- for business
- for recreation
- or rape


BC is not an issue for procreation and the professional girls aren't stupid and know what they're doing, so it's no issue for them either. As far as rape goes, it's a violent crime and thus in a league of it's own. There is not even a question about free care for the victim.

This leaves recreational sex, which I like but only pays for if I can take part in it. I'm not paying for your weed either, unless I get to smoke some of it..

Well, you're the one who clearly said it, so it's just stating the obvious now that you stated it.

You started out by appearing so open minded at first - as if you were indeed above average - but then I suddenly had the impression that you saw the "triggers" you were looking for and issued the command:

execure Straw_man(void 'Slutshamer', 'Misogynist');

Output "I see, wanting insurance to pay for birth control means you're a slut or a prostitute. Ok, no point in even discussing the matter with you further."

I guess I was a little disappointed...

Let's review:

Sex is always recreational for women, except when it's not, but should always be subject to financial implications and affordability. In short: hoors.

Sex is never recreational for men, even when it is, and should never be subject to financial implications and affordability.

Sex is recreational for both. However the potential costs of doing it bareback too soon vary...

The costs of sex for a guy: A dinner, some bullshit and 5 minutes of his time.

The costs of sex for a girl: Twenty years of suck.



I'm sorry it's only the girl who can get pregnant....

... well, actually not really cause a guy giving birth would HURT

However that's how it is.

 

[Brollyanna]

.....
Sex is either....

- for procreation
- for business
- for recreation
- or rape


BC is not an issue for procreation and the professional girls aren't stupid and know what they're doing, so it's no issue for them either. As far as rape goes, it's a violent crime and thus in a league of it's own. There is not even a question about free care for the victim.

This leaves recreational sex, which I like but only pays for if I can take part in it. I'm not paying for your weed either, unless I get to smoke some of it..
.....

How about this?
A woman agrees to have sex with a guy on the explicit understanding that he wears a condom. The condom tears accidentally or the guy turns out to be a cunt and slips it off deliberately.

In either scenario, the woman would need not only an emergency contraceptive, but also testing for STDs, but if she spent her last hard earned cash on the condom (which tore or was torn off) and the guy insists that "I pulled out, honey - I'm not a teenager, I got it." and refuses to pay.
Where on your scale of four kinds of sex would this fit in?

 

[about_average]

You started out by appearing so open minded at first - as if you were indeed above average - but then I suddenly had the impression that you saw the "triggers" you were looking for

What trigger?
You said

In my mind being promiscuous without bothering with taking precautions against unwanted pregnancy is a lifestyle choice and as such shouldn't be covered.

Are you now saying it's ok for insurance to cover birth control if the woman is in a loving relationship?
You never mentioned that, the only type of relationship you've mentioned is "promiscuous". What people would generally term as a slut.
So how is one to take your statement other than by thinking you feel any woman who needs birth control is "promiscuous", i.e., a slut?

 

[bg23]

strangelife's position seems to be:

1. I don't want to pay for birth control because that's wrong and I don't get to even have any of the sex

2. I would much rather pay for the birth and pregnancy costs, even though I didn't get to have any of the sex. (He won't even get to hold the cute wittle babby! But that's OK?)

strangelife's position is very confusing.

 

[phrodeau]

strangelife's position seems to be:

1. I don't want to pay for birth control because that's wrong and I don't get to even have any of the sex

2. I would much rather pay for the birth and pregnancy costs, even though I didn't get to have any of the sex. (He won't even get to hold the cute wittle babby! But that's OK?)

strangelife's position is very confusing.

Small wonder. He's dittoing Rush Limbaugh.

 

[RobDownSouth]

strangelife's position seems to be:

1. I don't want to pay for birth control because that's wrong and I don't get to even have any of the sex

2. I would much rather pay for the birth and pregnancy costs, even though I didn't get to have any of the sex. (He won't even get to hold the cute wittle babby! But that's OK?)

strangelife's position is very confusing.

That's his position today, in any event.

 

[Laurel]

I just really don't see the big deal about birth control being covered.

A person eats fried foods for 40 years, knowing it causes high cholesterol, and goes on meds to lower it. Should it not be covered because he or she knew the risks?

Someone smothers there food in salt knowing they may develop high blood pressure...do we not cover their meds to lower it because they knew the risks and ate too much salt anyway?

Stop being rational!!

 

[phrodeau]

I've got the answer that will solve everything for everybody.

Sex panels.

 

[smallgirl]

Stop being rational!!

LOL...sorry, but this is how I see things. Why over think things? Birth control is a medicine...if you aren't going to cover it because someone has unsafe sex knowingly...then you have to stop covering every medicine, cause everyone knows certain habits cause certain things to happen.


Are we going to quit covering chemo for smokers? They knew the risks. Quit treating heart disease for smokers? They knew the risks...right?

 

[RobDownSouth]

LOL...sorry, but this is how I see things. Why over think things? Birth control is a medicine...if you aren't going to cover it because someone has unsafe sex knowingly...then you have to stop covering every medicine, cause everyone knows certain habits cause certain things to happen.


Are we going to quit covering chemo for smokers? They knew the risks. Quit treating heart disease for smokers? They knew the risks...right?

The short answer: you can't "slut shame" an over-eater or a smoker.

It's all about teh sex!

SEX SEX SEX!

 

[smallgirl]

The short answer: you can't "slut shame" an over-eater or a smoker.

It's all about teh sex!

SEX SEX SEX!

Maybe, but I just don't see it that way.

To me when they yell SEX, they are diving into religious beliefs and those have no place in this argument, right?

 

[RobDownSouth]

Maybe, but I just don't see it that way.

To me when they yell SEX, they are diving into religious beliefs and those have no place in this argument, right?

"Religious beliefs" are convenient camouflage to disguise their preoccupation with SEX SEX SEX.

 

[StrangeLife]

I just really don't see the big deal about birth control being covered.

A person eats fried foods for 40 years, knowing it causes high cholesterol, and goes on meds to lower it. Should it not be covered because he or she knew the risks?

Someone smothers there food in salt knowing they may develop high blood pressure...do we not cover their meds to lower it because they knew the risks and ate too much salt anyway?

Of course not....every argument against birth control being covered could be made for EVERY medicine to treat EVERY condition.

So....if you don't want my daughters birth control covered, lets drop all the cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetic medications because to a certain point all those conditions are PREVENTABLE ....just like getting knocked up.

If you are against coverage for birth control because its a type of "abortion" and against your religious beliefs, well there's no place for that in this argument....separation of church and state and all that good stuff.

Just my opinion on it.

It's a common analogy but it doesn't hold up too well.

If you've ever trained your dog, you know that it's all about attention span, right? For a dog it's very short. Once you find the poop on the new white carpet you just picked up at the store for a small fortune, the dog has already forgotten that it was the one who put it there 5 minutes ago. So when you yell at the poor thing, it can't understand what it has done to make you so mad. It doesn't connect the act of shitting with your anger. It's an abstract concept for a dog.

Something similar is the case with life style diseases. We all know intellectually that we should avoid this and that and the other, but the connection between cause and effect is abstract at best and sometimes decades apart. Unless you have medical training, it's really difficult not to act like the aforementioned dog and loose sight of the connection. And then there's the whole genetic issue to further confuse us. Some people can eat peanut butter and not get fat. Some people can smoke for 60 years and never get sick.

I hate them all btw.


As opposed to life style diseases, the consequences of not using birth control are immediate and directly connected to the act. The causality is as well outlined as you could ask for.

 

[smallgirl]

It's a common analogy but it doesn't hold up too well.

If you've ever trained your dog, you know that it's all about attention span, right? For a dog it's very short. Once you find the poop on the new white carpet you just picked up at the store for a small fortune, the dog has already forgotten that it was the one who put it there 5 minutes ago. So when you yell at the poor thing, it can't understand what it has done to make you so mad. It doesn't connect the act of shitting with your anger. It's an abstract concept for a dog.

Something similar is the case with life style diseases. We all know intellectually that we should avoid this and that and the other, but the connection between cause and effect is abstract at best and sometimes decades apart. Unless you have medical training, it's really difficult not to act like the aforementioned dog and loose sight of the connection. And then there's the whole genetic issue to further confuse us. Some people can eat peanut butter and not get fat. Some people can smoke for 60 years and never get sick.

I hate them all btw.


As opposed to life style diseases, the consequences of not using birth control are immediate and directly connected to the act. The causality is as well outlined as you could ask for.

Yeah, I see that as splitting hairs.
Birth control should be covered, it is a medicine, pure and simple.

I don't get your analogy for the dog...mine was very easily housebroken. I really don't see that correlation.

Pregnancy is preventable, the same as all those other pesky health problems.

 

[Laurel]

Some people can eat peanut butter and not get fat. Some people can smoke for 60 years and never get sick.

And not all sex results in pregnancy. In fact, the majority of unprotected sex does not lead to conception.

But you didn't answer the question.

Your issue is that you shouldn't have to pay for someone else who takes medication in order to have recreational sex without risk of pregnancy.

Suppose I have an issue with people who drink alcohol. Should I have to pay for alcohol-related medical treatment?

Suppose I have a moral issue with overeaters. Should I be allowed to defund treatment medicines for Type II diabetes and other obesity-related illnesses?

Does we all get to opt out of paying for lifestyles we don't agree with?

The answer is no. So, deal. And MYOB.

 

[StrangeLife]

I wonder if my insurance dime pays to treat Reese's Peanut Butter Cups induced heart disease?

You don't get heart disease from eating them. You get heart disease from not going for a jog afterwards.

How about this?
A woman agrees to have sex with a guy on the explicit understanding that he wears a condom. The condom tears accidentally or the guy turns out to be a cunt and slips it off deliberately.

That's an accident and if it results in a pregnancy, it's an unwanted one (especially in the case where the guy does it on purpose).

In either scenario, the woman would need not only an emergency contraceptive, but also testing for STDs, but if she spent her last hard earned cash on the condom (which tore or was torn off) and the guy insists that "I pulled out, honey - I'm not a teenager, I got it." and refuses to pay.
Where on your scale of four kinds of sex would this fit in?

It might be overkill to charge the guy with rape, but in a way it is. If you do something in bed that you know in advance that the other person highly disagrees with, that's basically a violation. I mean, we're not merely talking about grabbing hold of her hair from the back and doing the cookie-dough. Involuntary fertilisation is a pretty serious issue.

But notice that I said already that I am totally ok with giving out Plan B for free. And rather one time too many than one time too few. Accidents happen during recreational activities. You could also fall into your koi pond for instance...

 

[john415]

I hope no one ever works for a xian scientist as doctors are a direct challenge to gods will

 

[StrangeLife]

What trigger?
You saidAre you now saying it's ok for insurance to cover birth control if the woman is in a loving relationship?
You never mentioned that, the only type of relationship you've mentioned is "promiscuous". What people would generally term as a slut.
So how is one to take your statement other than by thinking you feel any woman who needs birth control is "promiscuous", i.e., a slut?

If I came across like that, it was unintended.

I simply want women to accept the financial responsibility for their own biological systems and not hide behind the fact that "You men don't get pregnant so you have it easy. It's only fair that you pay."

And it's not fair. It's not that easy being a guy y'know. We need to.....

... erm....

.... well....

.... nyahh...

... hmmm....

....Kill spiders. Yep, big ones... and that can be pretty costly.


Seriously though - can't you see the logic? It's not about to be a slut or not - it's about taking responsibility and paying your own way.

strangelife's position seems to be:

1. I don't want to pay for birth control because that's wrong and I don't get to even have any of the sex

Yes.

2. I would much rather pay for the birth and pregnancy costs, even though I didn't get to have any of the sex. (He won't even get to hold the cute wittle babby! But that's OK?)

I would prefer that people would start having babies after they finish school and maybe even have a place of their own. However, you are essentially right - I would never deny a mom health care.

And the "cute baby?" Well, I don't know your age, but I can tell from my own experience that once you get one of those you can forget about sleep, sex and money because you won't have either for a long time. And they grow into scary creatures called "teenagers" who take off with your car if you forget to hide the keys, throw up in the pool and are able to empty a Louis Vuitton store in minutes....

Luckily my psychologist is covered

Small wonder. He's dittoing Rush Limbaugh.

Can we please stick with Ann Coulter instead? At least she's hot....

http://img002.lazygirls.info/people/ann_coulter/ann_coulter_happiness_is_a_warm_gun_z198BBS.sized.jpg

LOL...sorry, but this is how I see things. Why over think things? Birth control is a medicine...if you aren't going to cover it because someone has unsafe sex knowingly...then you have to stop covering every medicine, cause everyone knows certain habits cause certain things to happen.

I paid for the seat belts in my car... the airbags weren't free either. But I did it because I believe in safe driving. Should my health insurance cover that?

And yes - it is the same situation.

The short answer: you can't "slut shame" an over-eater or a smoker.

It's all about teh sex!

SEX SEX SEX!

You might wanna have a chat with an overweight person some day Rob. Trust me - they know what discrimination and shaming is all about.

 

[StrangeLife]

Maybe, but I just don't see it that way.

To me when they yell SEX, they are diving into religious beliefs and those have no place in this argument, right?

I am not religious SG. In fact, I consider pre-marital sex essential for a good marriage. I mean, you wouldn't by a car without a test drive...

"Religious beliefs" are convenient camouflage to disguise their preoccupation with SEX SEX SEX.

When you hit your forties "SEX SEX SEX" turns into "SEX SEX... zzzz..."

 

[Sean Renaud]

Nobody in the long history of the world has paid their own way. So lets eliminate that from the list of things we expect and start working on what's the ideal way to handle these things. In this case pay for the sex or pay for the kid.