Thought I'd come visit for the holidays and...

[Peregrinator]

...present you all with this quote from Freud:


A person who feels pleasure in producing pain in someone else in a sexual relationship is also capable of enjoying as pleasure any pain which he may himself derive from sexual relations. A sadist is always at the same time a masochist.

I was going to post this in my usual home, the GB, but a lot of people there are vanilla types who shit all over those of us who aren't. I was curious about what you all think. So have at it, BDSM types. Is Freud right about that? Are all of us who prefer to hold the whip than feel it really switches (note ingenious pun, intended)?

I'm pretty sure this does apply to me, though I still prefer to inflict rather than suffer. It gets twisty when I think too much about it.

 

[DVS]

I think our buddy Freud slipped on this one. And he was more than likely vanilla. None of those people understand us, anyway.

 

[JMohegan]

Ha! Happy holidays, Perg.

I'd say a body is a body, and physiology should therefore render all of us bisexual switches at birth. But the brain wiring/social experience combo confuses matters considerably.

In my case, the pain thing is really about the control thing, and no - it absolutely does not work in reverse.

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, a timely discussion. While my dominant tendencies are there when asked for, it is not my comfort zone or preference....and yes, I am a masochist of humungous proportions, and it is my preferred comfort zone, but as F pointed out last night when I was called upon to deal with something which caused him physical pain, I have a strong sadistic streak which rears its head at times. I still think I prefer to be on the receiving end, but there are times when I can find pleasure of a certain degree in dishing it out too. Alas, he wasn't about to indulge the moment to let me explore further that tendency to give pain, on him, outside the medically required and requested task. Sheesh, what's a little pain between friends and lovers?!! As to being a switch, I don't think I fit there as it seems I don't spend anytime dreaming about dominating or being sadistic, but can rise to the occasion when called to.

Catalina http://home.versatel.nl/topdownloads/erotiek/13.gif

 

[Ravenwind]

I think it's more of a "this is gonna hurt you a lot more than it hurts me" sort of thing... not so much that a PYL enjoys the whip as much as a pyl, but rather, can a PYL receive pleasure while receiving pain, because he is giving another pain. A person with dacrylagnia would apply- they hate to see their loved one cry (as any normal person would), yet at the same time, the very act of seeing them cry turns them on (the fetish). Thus, the dacrylagniac is a masochist in that he wants the emotional pain of suffering because their loved one cries, yet is a sadist in wanting to give the physical pain to cause the crying in the first place.

I don't think it applies to all PYLs, but to some, definitely.

 

[where]

I think Freud was brilliant in the ideas but not in the understanding. I wouldn't apply much of what he says to real life situations.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I don´t know about always but I think there is something to it, yes.
He does say capable in your quote, not "willing to" or "would prefer" and I think that taking pleasure in giving or receiving pain are two sides of the same coin and that other factors, like upbringing and where we fall on the D/s scale, determine which end of the whip we end up on.

 

[Primalex]

Freud? The guy who also wrote:"It must be admitted that women have but little sense of justice, and this is no doubt connected with the preponderance of envy in their mental life."?


Well, one person properly put it this way:
"Doctor Freud not only used cocaine himself, but he also prescribed it to his patients. And then he drew his generalizations. Cocaine is a strong sexual arouser. That's why everything Freud invented — all those oedipuses, sphinxes and sphincters — is relevant only to a mental dimension of a patient, whose brain is turned to fried-eggs by cocaine. In such a state, one really has only one problem left — what to do first, to screw his mother or to do away with his father. Of course, until his cocaine runs out. And in those times, there were no problems with supplies. But so long as your daily dose is less than three grams, you don't have to fear either the Oedipus complex, nor other things discovered by Freud."

 

[Netzach]

Freud? The guy who also wrote:"It must be admitted that women have but little sense of justice, and this is no doubt connected with the preponderance of envy in their mental life."?


Well, one person properly put it this way:
"Doctor Freud not only used cocaine himself, but he also prescribed it to his patients. And then he drew his generalizations. Cocaine is a strong sexual arouser. That's why everything Freud invented — all those oedipuses, sphinxes and sphincters — is relevant only to a mental dimension of a patient, whose brain is turned to fried-eggs by cocaine. In such a state, one really has only one problem left — what to do first, to screw his mother or to do away with his father. Of course, until his cocaine runs out. And in those times, there were no problems with supplies. But so long as your daily dose is less than three grams, you don't have to fear either the Oedipus complex, nor other things discovered by Freud."

This. If he's right he's right for bullshit reasons usually.

I don't think it's a totally stupid observation, I just think it's a really unpopular discussion among control freaks.

I honestly think that any functional person has the potential for masochism. Not to the point of "I am masochist" but some. We all have enough similarity in brains and hormones and glands that anyone can convert *some* forms of "pain" stimuli into a "fun" interpretation. "Pain" and "fun" being completely subjective, but I think about as close to universally held ideas as you're going to get.

Otherwise we'd have mental breakdowns during serious injuries instead of going shocky and high. Otherwise there'd be no flagellant cults, facial piercers or Sun Dancers in the history of the world - "pain" as something bigger than "pain".

For every Top who would "not get anything out of it" ask the same person if they run, meditate, did a team sport, and you'll hear "yes." Dude, you still like pot, you just like brownies and not smoking it.

It's all good. We should own it.

I do get vicarious enjoyment from having to face the fact that I am the kind of person who is enjoying the thing I am doing that is not so nice. So there's an emotionally masochistic pleasure for me in physical sadism, but it's fleeting. I don't have a ton of guilt, just enough to keep it fun.

 

[NomadLady]

...present you all with this quote from Freud:


A person who feels pleasure in producing pain in someone else in a sexual relationship is also capable of enjoying as pleasure any pain which he may himself derive from sexual relations. A sadist is always at the same time a masochist.

I was going to post this in my usual home, the GB, but a lot of people there are vanilla types who shit all over those of us who aren't. I was curious about what you all think. So have at it, BDSM types. Is Freud right about that? Are all of us who prefer to hold the whip than feel it really switches (note ingenious pun, intended)?

I'm pretty sure this does apply to me, though I still prefer to inflict rather than suffer. It gets twisty when I think too much about it.

I don't know that I'm a 100% believer in Freud but I understand and agree with the point you are making and when I think about it too much...it gets twisty. I have switched on rare occasion and am always surprised how much I do enjoy it once it happens....but I still prefer being submissive.

 

[Peregrinator]

I think our buddy Freud slipped on this one. And he was more than likely vanilla. None of those people understand us, anyway.

Thanks for your opinion. I'd be interested if you'd explain a bit why you think he "slipped."

Ha! Happy holidays, Perg.

I'd say a body is a body, and physiology should therefore render all of us bisexual switches at birth. But the brain wiring/social experience combo confuses matters considerably.

In my case, the pain thing is really about the control thing, and no - it absolutely does not work in reverse.

*snerk* Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, JM. I don't do the PC valediction.

Interesting idea. I was just saying the other day regarding blowjobs that a mouth is a mouth, right? But I have very, very rarely in my life been attracted to a man.

That's a thought I hadn't had, yet. The causing pain thing might be all about control. Part of it, for sure, is that she allows it. But when it's what she craves, are we still talking the same dynamic?

LOL, a timely discussion. While my dominant tendencies are there when asked for, it is not my comfort zone or preference....and yes, I am a masochist of humungous proportions, and it is my preferred comfort zone, but as F pointed out last night when I was called upon to deal with something which caused him physical pain, I have a strong sadistic streak which rears its head at times. I still think I prefer to be on the receiving end, but there are times when I can find pleasure of a certain degree in dishing it out too. Alas, he wasn't about to indulge the moment to let me explore further that tendency to give pain, on him, outside the medically required and requested task. Sheesh, what's a little pain between friends and lovers?!! As to being a switch, I don't think I fit there as it seems I don't spend anytime dreaming about dominating or being sadistic, but can rise to the occasion when called to.

Catalina http://home.versatel.nl/topdownloads/erotiek/13.gif

Do you think your ability to enjoy causing pain arises from your ability to enjoy it? That the knowledge of the pleasure inherent in pain lets you imagine that the one to whom you cause pain is in fact on some level enjoying it? See how twisty this gets?

Also, nice to talk with you. I've read a lot of your posts, but I'm not sure we've ever said hello directly.

I think it's more of a "this is gonna hurt you a lot more than it hurts me" sort of thing... not so much that a PYL enjoys the whip as much as a pyl, but rather, can a PYL receive pleasure while receiving pain, because he is giving another pain. A person with dacrylagnia would apply- they hate to see their loved one cry (as any normal person would), yet at the same time, the very act of seeing them cry turns them on (the fetish). Thus, the dacrylagniac is a masochist in that he wants the emotional pain of suffering because their loved one cries, yet is a sadist in wanting to give the physical pain to cause the crying in the first place.

I don't think it applies to all PYLs, but to some, definitely.

I had to google dacrylagnia. And I'm not sure what PYL and pyl refer to, but I get what you're saying. Interesting observation.

I think Freud was brilliant in the ideas but not in the understanding. I wouldn't apply much of what he says to real life situations.

Well, but what is theory if it doesn't apply? I think Freud would have argued that his theories were applicable, or they would be irrelevant, right?

I don´t know about always but I think there is something to it, yes.
He does say capable in your quote, not "willing to" or "would prefer" and I think that taking pleasure in giving or receiving pain are two sides of the same coin and that other factors, like upbringing and where we fall on the D/s scale, determine which end of the whip we end up on.

I think this makes a lot of sense. It's sort of how I feel about it.

Freud? The guy who also wrote:"It must be admitted that women have but little sense of justice, and this is no doubt connected with the preponderance of envy in their mental life."?


Well, one person properly put it this way:
"Doctor Freud not only used cocaine himself, but he also prescribed it to his patients. And then he drew his generalizations. Cocaine is a strong sexual arouser. That's why everything Freud invented — all those oedipuses, sphinxes and sphincters — is relevant only to a mental dimension of a patient, whose brain is turned to fried-eggs by cocaine. In such a state, one really has only one problem left — what to do first, to screw his mother or to do away with his father. Of course, until his cocaine runs out. And in those times, there were no problems with supplies. But so long as your daily dose is less than three grams, you don't have to fear either the Oedipus complex, nor other things discovered by Freud."

Eh. This smells of the argumentum ad hominem fallacy. Freud may have said some dumb shit, and his critics may have said some clever shit, but does the concept in the quote I posted have any currency or not?

This. If he's right he's right for bullshit reasons usually.

I don't think it's a totally stupid observation, I just think it's a really unpopular discussion among control freaks.

I honestly think that any functional person has the potential for masochism. Not to the point of "I am masochist" but some. We all have enough similarity in brains and hormones and glands that anyone can convert *some* forms of "pain" stimuli into a "fun" interpretation. "Pain" and "fun" being completely subjective, but I think about as close to universally held ideas as you're going to get.

Otherwise we'd have mental breakdowns during serious injuries instead of going shocky and high. Otherwise there'd be no flagellant cults, facial piercers or Sun Dancers in the history of the world - "pain" as something bigger than "pain".

For every Top who would "not get anything out of it" ask the same person if they run, meditate, did a team sport, and you'll hear "yes." Dude, you still like pot, you just like brownies and not smoking it.

It's all good. We should own it.

I do get vicarious enjoyment from having to face the fact that I am the kind of person who is enjoying the thing I am doing that is not so nice. So there's an emotionally masochistic pleasure for me in physical sadism, but it's fleeting. I don't have a ton of guilt, just enough to keep it fun.

You're essentially putting all masochism in the camp of "endorphin junkie." Okay. But do you see the endorphin junkie in the Top position?

I think Primalex hit the nail on the head there.

Only a few of us here on the BDSM board can speak with any authority on the phsychology of someone who has been given conaine like candy, so too, can very few of freud's observations be applied to the real world, whether or not his observations seemed consistent within the drug adled reality he constucted around himself.


Freud's success in the foundation of modern psychology came not from any profound understanding, but from pandering to a trend towards peeking on the perverse, while maintaining the illusion of separation from it. In a highly schauvanist male dominated society, no less. Reading freud's work was the highbrow/ educated equivalent of going to a freakshow. In essence, Freud could also be called the grandfather of shock jocks.

It should also be noted that due to freud's methods, which followed the scientific method shoddily at best, he is often considered to have hurt the field of psychology as much as helped, as critics and skeptics of psychology generaly cite freuds work and the work of other psychoanalysts to justify the arguement that psychology is not a field of true science, and should therefore not be deemed science at all.

Consequently, he is not uncommonly reviled as a madman in many fields of psychology other than psychoanalyses. At least, that was my college professors opinion of him.

When I went to college, only physical psychology was considered a true science, but the lack of conformity (and therefore absolute predictablility) in the mamalian brain renders even physical psychology sketchy. Other fields of psychology remain highly beneficial, and should not be shouldered out of the scientific comunity, given the medical rule of thumb that any effective alternate treatment options should be considered before surgury or perscription of drugs, particularly psychoactive ones.

It may not be "science" in the empirical sense, I agree. And I agree that theory based on cokeheads may not apply to anyone not taking coke, but I think you throw out the baby with the bathwater here. Not everyone Freud treated was coke-addled, and he probably wasn't all that fucked up himself, at least not for all of his professional life.

And your post, while interesting and thought-provoking, doesn't really answer the question, does it? Forget Freud momentarily and think about whether those of us who enjoy the infliction of pain secretly think we might enjoy the feeling of pain.

I don't know that I'm a 100% believer in Freud but I understand and agree with the point you are making and when I think about it too much...it gets twisty. I have switched on rare occasion and am always surprised how much I do enjoy it once it happens....but I still prefer being submissive.

That's been my experience. I've switched on rare occasions and really enjoyed it. But I still prefer being Dominant.

 

[graceanne]

I don't know if this is the place for it, but I have a theory about masochism. Not all masochism, but some.

I think masochism is, in some people, part of a larger sensory disorder. My son, who I've mentioned has some special needs, was recently caught in a shower hot enough to scald. Quite literally, he was red all over. His dad pulled him out, and I told him that from now one me or his dad would need to check the temperature of his showers. He's mad at us, because the hot temperature 'feels good, mama'. This is the same child who will deliberately burn himself if I don't watch him carefully and doesn't seem to even notice he's burned himself. These are things that are common in children with certain sensory disorders. The why's and wherefores are beside the point. I don't think masochism is ALWAYS a sexual 'disorder' or even a sexual thing. I think that in some people it's the way they're born.

But, then, I think KC has been saying that for a long time.

 

[Netzach]

You're essentially putting all masochism in the camp of "endorphin junkie." Okay. But do you see the endorphin junkie in the Top position?

Not especially because a different set of responses are called on and triggered. If being a top felt like being a bottom, chemically we'd forget to untie them laugh ourselves stupid and eat chocolate by the fistful after a scene. I don't do that when I'm hitting people, I do do that when I'm being hit by people, and I'm very disinterested in contexts of who owns or adores or would do anything for whom, I'm talking about baser instincts. Biological imperative land hind brain stuff.

If I wanted to be hit by people "secretly" I would. A lot more often than I have.

There's a vicarious interest in that whoa I'm flying thing, usually, but it's vicarious because we're in a generally different chemical la la land when we do what we do. Like you I prefer the one to the other, surely you feel the difference?

You could argue that all our thrills are vicarious, I guess, and Freud was doing that probably relying on DeSade. A masochist in isolation can hurt themselves to release it, a sadist in isolation has to do the same thing and pull back from it to have the need sated. Or write some really incendiary smut. Of the two I think Sadists are more meta and other-reliant for definition.

Not really relevant but sorta. My slave and I were in a used bookshop in Pittsburgh and found a book "the causes of Sadomasochism" I think it was called. This was a 1990-something edition and the authors were hardcore Freudians arguing that you could Freud away the sexuality of people like me for better. I was expecting something very different - it read like 70's era. The threat from the helping professions is alive and well and it does us well to be VERY alert when picking our shrinks.

Trying to neutralize Freud in this crowd is kind of hard for that reason, possibly.

 

[YourCaptor]

...present you all with this quote from Freud:


A person who feels pleasure in producing pain in someone else in a sexual relationship is also capable of enjoying as pleasure any pain which he may himself derive from sexual relations. A sadist is always at the same time a masochist.

I was going to post this in my usual home, the GB, but a lot of people there are vanilla types who shit all over those of us who aren't. I was curious about what you all think. So have at it, BDSM types. Is Freud right about that? Are all of us who prefer to hold the whip than feel it really switches (note ingenious pun, intended)?

I'm pretty sure this does apply to me, though I still prefer to inflict rather than suffer. It gets twisty when I think too much about it.

Freud was more about creating tabloid gossip style stuff than science.

 

[Adakgirl]

Freud filtered everything through one basic defective theory. And this is just one example of how wrong he was. A sadist, the same as a masochist? I think not. But I do believe we all have both in us.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Do you think your ability to enjoy causing pain arises from your ability to enjoy it? That the knowledge of the pleasure inherent in pain lets you imagine that the one to whom you cause pain is in fact on some level enjoying it? See how twisty this gets?

Also, nice to talk with you. I've read a lot of your posts, but I'm not sure we've ever said hello directly.

Hello back. Yes, I did say when I was first asked to play the sadist with another that my own experiences as a masochist helped immensely in not only finding someone I could click with, but also use my own experience and intuition to read them.

That being said, for some perverse reason, I achieve a level of fun in giving F pain even though I know he is not enjoying it....lol, I put it down to my fascination with medical matters and dedication to performing medical type tasks (minor surgery at times) on him, on his orders...could come down to my usually getting stressed about it on some level but being ordered to do it anyway. Maybe it is related to my uncontrollable laughter when I have been or am on the receiving end of some particularly intense pain above the usual.

Catalina

 

[eastern sun]

Interesting. My husband and I both give and receive pain, but of different natures.

I like physical pain. He hates it.

He likes emotional pain. I hate it.

I give my husband the kind of pain he wants, primarily because it's required of me. I don't particularly enjoy the giving when just the two of us are involved.

Finding someone who likes the same kind of pain I do is different. My appreciation of (and identification with) their cravings turns me on and draws out my desires to share it by inflicting it.

 

[greenjacobin]

I do get vicarious enjoyment from having to face the fact that I am the kind of person who is enjoying the thing I am doing that is not so nice.

Wow! I've read that sentence about 10 times, and it was more pleasurable with each additional reading. It stands as a serious "reality check" for me. I've never thought about just how true it is.

Now I'm going to roll it around in my head for the next few days and really, really enjoy it - while at home, while at the grocery store, while out shopping...

You know what? They need mirrors in the grocery store, so I can look at the woman who is thinking such thoughts.

Oh! And a big Thank You to Netzach! You've made my day!

 

[Primalex]

I honestly think that any functional person has the potential for masochism. Not to the point of "I am masochist" but some. We all have enough similarity in brains and hormones and glands that anyone can convert *some* forms of "pain" stimuli into a "fun" interpretation. "Pain" and "fun" being completely subjective, but I think about as close to universally held ideas as you're going to get.

Otherwise we'd have mental breakdowns during serious injuries instead of going shocky and high. Otherwise there'd be no flagellant cults, facial piercers or Sun Dancers in the history of the world - "pain" as something bigger than "pain".

For every Top who would "not get anything out of it" ask the same person if they run, meditate, did a team sport, and you'll hear "yes." Dude, you still like pot, you just like brownies and not smoking it.

And women give birth because they like the pain, hu?

You confuse accepting pain and enjoying pain. I have yet to see the runner who runs just because of the pain (and who is not a masochist).

 

[Peregrinator]

I don't know if this is the place for it, but I have a theory about masochism. Not all masochism, but some.

I think masochism is, in some people, part of a larger sensory disorder. My son, who I've mentioned has some special needs, was recently caught in a shower hot enough to scald. Quite literally, he was red all over. His dad pulled him out, and I told him that from now one me or his dad would need to check the temperature of his showers. He's mad at us, because the hot temperature 'feels good, mama'. This is the same child who will deliberately burn himself if I don't watch him carefully and doesn't seem to even notice he's burned himself. These are things that are common in children with certain sensory disorders. The why's and wherefores are beside the point. I don't think masochism is ALWAYS a sexual 'disorder' or even a sexual thing. I think that in some people it's the way they're born.

But, then, I think KC has been saying that for a long time.

Well, it's certainly an interesting hypothesis. I think your son is an outlier, though. I don't know that it's good sense to take him as an example of the larger set. That said, a person with a diminished sensorium would very likely wish for more intense stimulus, and could certainly drift into masochism.

Not especially because a different set of responses are called on and triggered. If being a top felt like being a bottom, chemically we'd forget to untie them laugh ourselves stupid and eat chocolate by the fistful after a scene. I don't do that when I'm hitting people, I do do that when I'm being hit by people, and I'm very disinterested in contexts of who owns or adores or would do anything for whom, I'm talking about baser instincts. Biological imperative land hind brain stuff.

If I wanted to be hit by people "secretly" I would. A lot more often than I have.

There's a vicarious interest in that whoa I'm flying thing, usually, but it's vicarious because we're in a generally different chemical la la land when we do what we do. Like you I prefer the one to the other, surely you feel the difference?

You could argue that all our thrills are vicarious, I guess, and Freud was doing that probably relying on DeSade. A masochist in isolation can hurt themselves to release it, a sadist in isolation has to do the same thing and pull back from it to have the need sated. Or write some really incendiary smut. Of the two I think Sadists are more meta and other-reliant for definition.

Not really relevant but sorta. My slave and I were in a used bookshop in Pittsburgh and found a book "the causes of Sadomasochism" I think it was called. This was a 1990-something edition and the authors were hardcore Freudians arguing that you could Freud away the sexuality of people like me for better. I was expecting something very different - it read like 70's era. The threat from the helping professions is alive and well and it does us well to be VERY alert when picking our shrinks.

Trying to neutralize Freud in this crowd is kind of hard for that reason, possibly.

This is an interesting post. I can certainly agree that topping doesn't feel like bottoming, but I also feel that vicarious thrill at times.

I think you're right about sadists being more meta and other-reliant. That's nicely said. It wouldn't seem possible to be a sadist in isolation. That said, I wonder if an isolated sadist would drift over to masochism.

To your last about the book, there are a whole lot of stupid ideas out there...homosexuality being a mental illness I would think is the prime example.

Freud was more about creating tabloid gossip style stuff than science.

Argumentum ad hominem. Expand?

Freud filtered everything through one basic defective theory. And this is just one example of how wrong he was. A sadist, the same as a masochist? I think not. But I do believe we all have both in us.

Again, please expand on your argument? I'm not being a dick. I just have no way to know what either of you are talking about unless you tell me.

RE: we all have both, I think you're probably right. Sort of like the hetero-homo spectrum, I think there's certainly a sadist-masochist spectrum and while some of us are way, far at one end, I doubt anyone is pure one or the other.

Hello back. Yes, I did say when I was first asked to play the sadist with another that my own experiences as a masochist helped immensely in not only finding someone I could click with, but also use my own experience and intuition to read them.

That being said, for some perverse reason, I achieve a level of fun in giving F pain even though I know he is not enjoying it....lol, I put it down to my fascination with medical matters and dedication to performing medical type tasks (minor surgery at times) on him, on his orders...could come down to my usually getting stressed about it on some level but being ordered to do it anyway. Maybe it is related to my uncontrollable laughter when I have been or am on the receiving end of some particularly intense pain above the usual.

Catalina

That makes sense. I've found in my own practice (I've been working in emergency medicine for almost fifteen years now) that knowing what I know about pain from kinky acts with lovers is useful in treating patients in extremis.

I'm curious about what you've been doing with whoever F is.

Interesting. My husband and I both give and receive pain, but of different natures.

I like physical pain. He hates it.

He likes emotional pain. I hate it.

I give my husband the kind of pain he wants, primarily because it's required of me. I don't particularly enjoy the giving when just the two of us are involved.

Finding someone who likes the same kind of pain I do is different. My appreciation of (and identification with) their cravings turns me on and draws out my desires to share it by inflicting it.

Could you describe what sort of thing you do to give him emotional pain?

Your last statement is the kind of thing that the Freud quote brought to mind. A sort of vicarious pleasure. As a side note, I think you'd be fun to play with.

 

[Netzach]

And women give birth because they like the pain, hu?

You confuse accepting pain and enjoying pain. I have yet to see the runner who runs just because of the pain (and who is not a masochist).

And you confuse enjoying ONLY that something is painful with enjoying the painful aspect within a thing.

I'm saying the only reason we DO accept pain is because we're able to do this neat thing with quantities of it, and most of us created some outlet for toying with the neatness of that, even if we want to be totally in denial about it. Shit, we all have to make a myth, it's not just people who don't want to be flogged and fucked, but people who do too.

I like yoga personally for my fix. Not too circuitous. Ha.

I've yet to see a serious crazy runner who doesn't finish a 50 looking high and feeling high, and that isn't because of a super race time.

Most masochists don't do it "just for the pain" either. They're in it for catharsis or orgasms or lulz or to prove something. Pain isn't the ends, no kidding.

 

[catalina_francisco]

That makes sense. I've found in my own practice (I've been working in emergency medicine for almost fifteen years now) that knowing what I know about pain from kinky acts with lovers is useful in treating patients in extremis.

I'm curious about what you've been doing with whoever F is.

LOL, F is my Master and husband...he seems to like me to perform minor surgery on him whenever he thinks it is needed...positively refuses to go near a doctor. The worst was when he had me operate on a badly ingrown toenail early in our relationship...ended up having to cut down to the bone (yes, I could see the bone clearly in all its glory) and remove bits and pieces of nail which had imbedded themselves deep in the flesh. He has a wonderful ability to block pain, though it has let him down a couple of times when he lost focus. Fortunately for the toe operation he maintained it, and I didn't succumb to the desire to pass out, nor was there any infection though it took weeks to heal due to the depth.

Catalina

Catalina

 

[eastern sun]

Could you describe what sort of thing you do to give him emotional pain?

Your last statement is the kind of thing that the Freud quote brought to mind. A sort of vicarious pleasure.

I focus on my desires for other people while we're fucking, talk to him about the ways they turn me on (implicitly setting up comparisons with him), serve him sexually for the sole purpose of gaining permission to pursue other relationships, and use his body explicitly to practice and prepare myself for activities I'm planning on sharing with others.

Though it's easy for me to have desires for other people , it isn't so comfortable to share them with him. He's quite explicit about what he wants, and how I should deliver it. He uses his dominant position in the relationship to push it into areas he wants to touch. Sometimes I feel like I'm playing out the script he's written for me, which isn't so fun, even if it does get him off.

We're both happiest when it's genuine.

 

[Netzach]

I focus on my desires for other people while we're fucking, talk to him about the ways they turn me on (implicitly setting up comparisons with him), serve him sexually for the sole purpose of gaining permission to pursue other relationships, and use his body explicitly to practice and prepare myself for activities I'm planning on sharing with others.

Though it's easy for me to have desires for other people , it isn't so comfortable to share them with him. He's quite explicit about what he wants, and how I should deliver it. He uses his dominant position in the relationship to push it into areas he wants to touch. Sometimes I feel like I'm playing out the script he's written for me, which isn't so fun, even if it does get him off.

We're both happiest when it's genuine.

Not that you care, but I find this really hot. I get extremely pushy emotional maso cuckold clients sometimes and the thought of one of those with the inclination being smart enough to hook up with a service minded slave instead of socially inept enough to be pestering the likes of me is twisty hot and novel. Damn. It's outside the cliche call of femsub duty stuff in a very cool fashion.

 

[eastern sun]

Not that you care, but I find this really hot. I get extremely pushy emotional maso cuckold clients sometimes and the thought of one of those with the inclination being smart enough to hook up with a service minded slave instead of socially inept enough to be pestering the likes of me is twisty hot and novel. Damn. It's outside the cliche call of femsub duty stuff in a very cool fashion.

Are you kidding? I love that you see this, Netzach. And so would my husband.

He's very clear on what he wants, and the more vulnerable he feels, the tighter control he exercises in all aspects of our relationship. I think a lot of people think of masochistic cuckolds as "bottoms," but - as I think you're pointing out - the demands to perform to meet their needs can actually be very "toppy."

Then he "punishes" me for having these desires that don't include him, and we both end up getting what we crave.