The traditional values thread

[teknight]

Official notice:
Ladies, if you're gonna post here, please make sure to be wearing at least a knee length skirt, if not a dress, and you'd better be cooking or tending house while doing it. Anything less won't be tolerated. Think of the children!
BS intro aside, the topic of traditional values (and this is mostly in a US context, where the term bears political (non)meaning) has come up in other threads (that I'm involved in), so I figured that giving them their own thread was the decent thing to do.
What are traditional values (not just in a US context)?
Why are they good? I mean, it seems to me like they're good, 'cause they exist (which is a tautology), or, worse, they're good....'cause they're old....and people (are believed to) have been doing them for a long, long time. Those to me are nonsensical reasons, regardless of how warm and fuzzy they might make you feel.
Don't traditions evolve anyway?

And back to the BS intro- I'm willing to admit my ignorance on the topic. What am I missing?

ETA: Oh yeah, this is a BDSM thread...uhh...how do traditional values fit into a BDSM context? ...or would it be more D/s if I denied you that question?

 

[00Syd]

What am I missing?

Not much. You seem to have a pretty good handle on the ridiculousness of the concept.

But if you're curious what about the whole "traditional values" trope appeals to people, well, I'm not the right person to ask. Because I think it's mostly horseshit.

 

[teknight]

Not much. You seem to have a pretty good handle on the ridiculousness of the concept.

But if you're curious what about the whole "traditional values" trope appeals to people, well, I'm not the right person to ask. Because I think it's mostly horseshit.

Well, what with you being a woman, I guess I'd have to take anything you say with a grain of salt (and, hearkening to a traditional kitchen, a ton of grease too? ). But I appreciate your contribution.

 

[teknight]

Well, what with you being a woman, I guess I'd have to take anything you say with a grain of salt (and, hearkening to a traditional kitchen, a ton of grease too? ). But I appreciate your contribution.

Now, karma, let me make myself clear, in case you missed it the first time: More power to you if that's what you believe, but you expressed yourself in absolute terms, which both syd and I find ridiculous.

 

[JMohegan]

What are traditional values (not just in a US context)?

In the US, the term is often used to reference the values summarized in the tag line at the following link.

http://www.valuesvotersummit.org/

Except, as you'll no doubt notice, they leave off "traditional" when talking about values - because they're fond of implying that the rest of are devoid of values altogether.

A few translations are necessary.

Protect marriage = don't let gay people get married. It does NOT mean that politicians espousing traditional values want to stop fuckin' around on their wives.

Champion life = don't let women get abortions, ever. It does NOT reference support for efforts to improve the quality of life of the underprivileged, once born.

Defend our freedoms = don't place any restrictions on our right to buy guns of all kinds. It does NOT mean that females should be allowed to wear tuxedos to the prom, or that teens should be allowed to discuss homosexuality in high school sex ed, or that gays should be free to serve openly in the military, etc. In other words, they take that OUR in "our freedoms" quite literally. It means the freedoms that traditional values folks want to enjoy.

 

[00Syd]

Now, karma, let me make myself clear, in case you missed it the first time: More power to you if that's what you believe, but you expressed yourself in absolute terms, which both syd and I find ridiculous.

No, no "more power to you." What Karma said is wrong and insulting and fuck that.

 

[sb2009]

The "traditional values" from the political standpoint, I'm with JM up there.

As far as "tradition" I like some symbolism in my life, but I don't like to be constricted by it.

 

[teknight]

No, no "more power to you." What Karma said is wrong and insulting and fuck that.

Well, I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt...as I question his English skills, for one.
And I replied in the wrong damn thread too...Good job, tek, on being a dumbass.


ETA: if that's what works for him, and if his partners are into that, then, seriously, "more power to him." I don't object to his preferences, just to his choice of words, as I see him as having a limited viewpoint, which might prove detrimental, in the wrong context.

 

[teknight]

In the US, the term is often used to reference the values summarized in the tag line at the following link.

http://www.valuesvotersummit.org/

Except, as you'll no doubt notice, they leave off "traditional" when talking about values - because they're fond of implying that the rest of are devoid of values altogether.

A few translations are necessary.

Protect marriage = don't let gay people get married. It does NOT mean that politicians espousing traditional values want to stop fuckin' around on their wives.

Champion life = don't let women get abortions, ever. It does NOT reference support for efforts to improve the quality of life of the underprivileged, once born.

Defend our freedoms = don't place any restrictions on our right to buy guns of all kinds. It does NOT mean that females should be allowed to wear tuxedos to the prom, or that teens should be allowed to discuss homosexuality in high school sex ed, or that gays should be free to serve openly in the military, etc. In other words, they take that OUR in "our freedoms" quite literally. It means the freedoms that traditional values folks want to enjoy.

But, then, are these people really saying that women are chattel? I mean, that's how I read it. If chattel's too strong a word, then, property'd apply just as well. How do they perceive this incongruity? How do traditional minded women explain it? (I don't expect you to answer that one necessarily, JM )

 

[JMohegan]

But, then, are these people really saying that women are chattel? I mean, that's how I read it. If chattel's too strong a word, then, property'd apply just as well. How do they perceive this incongruity? How do traditional minded women explain it? (I don't expect you to answer that one necessarily, JM )

What part are you reading that way?

There are some people who really, honestly, truly believe that abortion is murder. I'm not one of them, but I don't think it's a fair shot to draw the women = property conclusion from that stance.

 

[teknight]

Protect marriage = don't let gay people get married. It does NOT mean that politicians espousing traditional values want to stop fuckin' around on their wives.

Champion life = don't let women get abortions, ever. It does NOT reference support for efforts to improve the quality of life of the underprivileged, once born.

Defend our freedoms = don't place any restrictions on our right to buy guns of all kinds. It does NOT mean that females should be allowed to wear tuxedos to the prom, or that teens should be allowed to discuss homosexuality in high school sex ed, or that gays should be free to serve openly in the military, etc. In other words, they take that OUR in "our freedoms" quite literally. It means the freedoms that traditional values folks want to enjoy.

What part are you reading that way?

There are some people who really, honestly, truly believe that abortion is murder. I'm not one of them, but I don't think it's a fair shot to draw the women = property conclusion from that stance.

Well, let me qualify my statements a bit:
it's not the abortion issue itself that leads me to my conclusion (which may be too strong by virtue of being too simplistic, as well).
But it strikes me as if the emphasis within this kind of crowd is on placing women in a secondary capacity, where at least some decision making is removed from them, solely because they're women (that conclusion may well be wrong.)

Within a very narrow context (where the bible is an end-all-be-all source of authority and knowledge) I can agree with people who would oppose homosexual marriage or abortion...By this I mean I can see why, if you're a bible believer, you'd oppose those things. I do not agree with those stances.

Back on point, it strikes me as if the "traditional values" thing sees women as ...lesser humans...but I am willing to accept that it might be my own skewed take on things....

I'm not 100% happy with this answer, and am confused some....but...it outlines how I feel, to an extent...I just think I could express myself more clearly...and might get the opportunity to do so later on.

 

[00Syd]

Well, I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt...as I question his English skills, for one.
And I replied in the wrong damn thread too...Good job, tek, on being a dumbass.


ETA: if that's what works for him, and if his partners are into that, then, seriously, "more power to him." I don't object to his preferences, just to his choice of words, as I see him as having a limited viewpoint, which might prove detrimental, in the wrong context.

He can do whatever he want with his partners. Yeah, groovy. I'm down.

But saying that men have a natural tendency to be dominant, and women have a natural tendency to be submissive (even dominant women), is wrong. Fuck that. I'm not going to tell him that that's cool, because it's not.

 

[teknight]

He can do whatever he want with his partners. Yeah, groovy. I'm down.

But saying that men have a natural tendency to be dominant, and women have a natural tendency to be submissive (even dominant women), is wrong. Fuck that. I'm not going to tell him that that's cool, because it's not.

Oh yeah. As an absolute blanket statement of this is MAN, and this woman, what he said was utter crap, and potentially deleterious. But I'm gonna choose not to read too much into his statement, as I don't know him.

I just happen to hold a very low opinion of him, based on a few posts he's made.

 

[sb2009]

Back to TRADITIONAL VALUES!

So, I have noticed with my offspring, that when I suggest a change to something they are invested in (the menu for Thanksgiving dinner, for example) they react with shock, horror, protests (equating eating out = kicking puppies and kittens).

I wonder if sometimes this is a sort of macro (is that the right word?) reaction to how larger amounts of people become upset when they see things changing and don't want them to change.

My oldest used the very word when freaking out about the change "it's TRADITION MOM!"

 

[teknight]

Back to TRADITIONAL VALUES!

So, I have noticed with my offspring, that when I suggest a change to something they are invested in (the menu for Thanksgiving dinner, for example) they react with shock, horror, protests (equating eating out = kicking puppies and kittens).

I wonder if sometimes this is a sort of macro (is that the right word?) reaction to how larger amounts of people become upset when they see things changing and don't want them to change.

My oldest used the very word when freaking out about the change "it's TRADITION MOM!"

I wanted to make this point, actually.
It strikes me as if a bunch of "traditions" are rooted in one's childhood. People learn them as children, and then "playing them out" brings back a sense of childhood. That's awfully vague, and it might well miss the point, but I feel like that's what gives traditions so much strength and validity.

 

[midwestyankee]

I wanted to make this point, actually.
It strikes me as if a bunch of "traditions" are rooted in one's childhood. People learn them as children, and then "playing them out" brings back a sense of childhood. That's awfully vague, and it might well miss the point, but I feel like that's what gives traditions so much strength and validity.

There's at least some merit to this. Many of the fiercest proponents of "traditional values" grew up in the "let's watch Leave it to Beaver" era and may well feel that what they learned at 12 should remain cultural law forever. And then when you mix in their pride in their religiosity and its influence on their beliefs about social roles, it just gets worse.

 

[Keroin]

There's at least some merit to this. Many of the fiercest proponents of "traditional values" grew up in the "let's watch Leave it to Beaver" era and may well feel that what they learned at 12 should remain cultural law forever. And then when you mix in their pride in their religiosity and its influence on their beliefs about social roles, it just gets worse.

Yup.

As someone who is almost tradition-less, I'm often amused and amazed at how tightly many people cling to traditions - even those that have long outlived any purpose whatsoever.

I wrote a blog post several years ago poking fun at N.American wedding traditions and...whoa...did I get some angry responses. Amazing. People expressed more ire at my jokes about white feather pens than at some of the Iraq war posts I made. Fascinating.

 

[teknight]

Yup.

As someone who is almost tradition-less, I'm often amused and amazed at how tightly many people cling to traditions - even those that have long outlived any purpose whatsoever.

I wrote a blog post several years ago poking fun at N.American wedding traditions and...whoa...did I get some angry responses. Amazing. People expressed more ire at my jokes about white feather pens than at some of the Iraq war posts I made. Fascinating.

...don't let me get started on the wedding arms race. I swear, people are starting to not see the forrest 'cause of all the trees.

Care to share the link, assuming it's still up?

 

[Keroin]

...don't let me get started on the wedding arms race. I swear, people are starting to not see the forrest 'cause of all the trees.

Care to share the link, assuming it's still up?

Um, no. Sorry. Private life private and all.

But yes, weddings baffle me and, no, I won't elaborate. I prefer my limbs attached to my body thankyouverymuch.

 

[teknight]

Um, no. Sorry. Private life private and all.

But yes, weddings baffle me and, no, I won't elaborate. I prefer my limbs attached to my body thankyouverymuch.

Pfftt! Privacy! Just kiddin', no worries about it.

Although, if you think they cut people up at weddings, we need to have a talk.

 

[sb2009]

The weddings-as-big-business trend is really gross. I have a friend who is a wedding and event planner and I think it's gross, even though I like her.

However, i sometimes get wistful when I see pictures of my friends in beautiful white gowns, glowing, with their friends and family. And my picture is a crooked (my friend was a horrible photographer) blurry photo of my husband and I grinning under the christmas tree at the courthouse we were married at. Which is a sweet memory, but no gushing-love-blossoms-puppies-kitties-stuff. :-(

 

[Bette_coquette]

If I ever marry, I'm going to be in a white wedding dress and he'll be in a tuxedo.

My traditional values include working hard, playing hard, and taking care of those close to you. I'm not one to embrace the Christian conservative values that fill our media today.

 

[teknight]

If I ever marry, I'm going to be in a white wedding dress and he'll be in a tuxedo.

My traditional values include working hard, playing hard, and taking care of those close to you. I'm not one to embrace the Christian conservative values that fill our media today.

I hope those values don't ever go out "out of style".

 

[midwestyankee]

The weddings-as-big-business trend is really gross. I have a friend who is a wedding and event planner and I think it's gross, even though I like her.

However, i sometimes get wistful when I see pictures of my friends in beautiful white gowns, glowing, with their friends and family. And my picture is a crooked (my friend was a horrible photographer) blurry photo of my husband and I grinning under the christmas tree at the courthouse we were married at. Which is a sweet memory, but no gushing-love-blossoms-puppies-kitties-stuff. :-(

Gushing-love-blossoms-puppies-kitties stuff drives me bonkers. Belief in such things is clearly a sign that someone isn't serious about their relationships.

Oh, sorry....wrong thread.

 

[where]

I deny the existence of 'traditional' values because all values are mutable