Good Manners

[rosco rathbone]

FWIW, I don't tell people what they want to eat. I find out, and then order for them.

This is also a good spur for indecisive females. "She'll have X" waiter walks away "Um, I think I actually want Y" "Garcon!"

 

[ownedsubgal]

I've never met any of these 'unisex people you refer to, but I can now see why you like this scene. it absolves you of any personal responsibility, manipulates others into paying for you and providing protection.

yes, you've got me pegged. i want to manipulate others by being treated like a woman. somehow i keep forgetting that exchanges with you are utterly pointless because you are incapable of having even the teensiest ounce of respect for those with a different perspective.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I think she's talking about "metrosexual" dudes.

And yeah, I've had that hunch for a long, long time.

in case it's been forgotten, i can read. if you have a particular opinion about me, however derogatory, i can take it directly like a big girl.

as for "metrosexual dudes," they certainly aren't my type but have nothing to do with anything in the context of this discussion.

 

[Keroin]

The same applies to men and women. Men show respect towards women by opening doors and holding chairs. Women show respect by not shouting, listening or being caring. Or I don't know. There doesn't seem to be a formal social thing for women showing respect...

OK, I LOL'd. Honestly...are you being serious here?

Likely for me. One thing is being intelligent, another entirely being decisive. Besides, why are you assuming that she is "unwilling" to decide; maybe the situation is that there are lots of things she likes, but doesn't know which she would enjoy more. Maybe she's done a more intellectual analysis of the menu and her feelings about eating, and has discovered that what she wants to eat might be less healthy, while what she should eat is not something she's particularly inclined to eat. So, she is thinking these things over while the man just stupidly picks the first thing he feels good about and is done with it.

How about that? Why do we always have to assume people aren't capable or are less intelligent for whatever reason?

Dude, here's a shovel, dig yourself in a little deeper.

So I, the hapless female, cannot navigate a restaurant menu? Despite an "intellectual analysis"? I am that incapable of coming to a decision and thank goodness there is a man who will step up and make that difficult choice for me?

And you don't see how that could be construed as being incapable?

Look, I totally get where Wenchie (et al ) is coming from. She's an independent, capable woman who also enjoys being with a man who will treat her like a fragile princess (even though she is clearly no such thing...well, maybe a princess but not fragile). Cool. Hey, some folks on this board enjoy being puppies and kitties...rock on. What you're suggesting is that there is some tangible, logical reason why a male should order food for a female, outside of their own desires to have that happen or the necessity of the situation (ie. I have to go to the washroom and the waiter is on his way).

Um, no.

 

[where]

I'm not dodging, just politely overlooking your attempt to marginalise and pathologize from a rather dubious position of authority.

well in fairness, you were the one who started with pathologising and labelling in an attempt to marginalise something that has been going on for literally centuries.

The same applies to men and women. Men show respect towards women by opening doors and holding chairs. Women show respect by not shouting, listening or being caring. Or I don't know. There doesn't seem to be a formal social thing for women showing respect...

maybe these courtesies could be shown by both genders to both genders? why does it have to be a one way street? unless you want women to have a sense of entitlement entirely dependent on how attractive they are


Likely for me. One thing is being intelligent, another entirely being decisive. Besides, why are you assuming that she is "unwilling" to decide; maybe the situation is that there are lots of things she likes, but doesn't know which she would enjoy more. Maybe she's done a more intellectual analysis of the menu and her feelings about eating, and has discovered that what she wants to eat might be less healthy, while what she should eat is not something she's particularly inclined to eat. So, she is thinking these things over while the man just stupidly picks the first thing he feels good about and is done with it.
'unwilling' based on other posts by people who think it's 'hot' for the man to choose for them. and there is a difference between saying, "hell, I don't know, you order for me" (something I've done many times, btw) and the man choosing without consultation. But like I said, I'm on two dinner dates next week. one 'nilla and one with a 'dom'. I'll see what the reaction is if I just sit mute with the expectation of having my food chosen for me.
How about that? Why do we always have to assume people aren't capable or are less intelligent for whatever reason?

we don't, but if you are on a date with someone you don't know that well and she sits expecting you to choose for her, it might lead you to some contrary impressions.

 

[KoPilot]

hehe, well I'm WHOLLY against that, because people are different and there's nothing wrong with being different. And being different means you get treated differently. It so happens that there are a host of other differences between men and women aside from their genitals (and then there are those who have both genitals, or none). So, it's not a matter of treating someone differently because they've got tits or a penis, but a matter of social conditioning that allows us to get along. On average men are taller and stronger than women, which means on average, they should show deference towards women. It doesn't mean that women are incapable or anything to do with whether they have tits or not; it's a matter of natural human differences that we have to learn to accept and get along with.

Yes, people are different. And in fact, people are so different that you can't really just put them into two clean-cut categories! Imagine that, huh??

If I'm carrying a 50 pound bag of cement, I would very much appreciate being offered help regardless of who's offering. But if someone offers to carry a 2 lb grocery bag for me, I would personally consider that rude because my kneejerk reaction is "what, you don't think I can fucking carry this?", so in that case, and many others like it, acknowledging that I am capable is a much greater show of respect to me than being "traditionally" courteous.

So... tl;dr, I hate making sweeping generalizations about people based on their gender. If your worldview says it's okay to do that, then there's really nothing more to discuss.

EDIT: Your and osg's Utopian society seems to leave out the numerous people who do not identify as pure girly girl or pure manly man. What do you propose we do with gays, lesbians, transsexuals, transgendered folk, tomboys, bisexuals, and everyone in between? Do we see a little boy's inclination to be nurturing and passive and try to beat it out of him while we still can? Turn him into a "real man"? Do we take a girl, who CLEARLY wants to pursue sports, cars, and baggy clothes, and get her nothing but Disney princess gear and dresses for Xmas? We're moving away from that mode of thinking for a reason.

 

[rosco rathbone]

well in fairness, you were the one who started with pathologising and labelling in an attempt to marginalise something that has been going on for literally centuries.

Yes, it has been going on for a long time and I don't expect it to stop. I do what I can to resist, but it's like trying to stop the tide.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I like men too. As Keroin says, it's all about choice -- the choice to express your masculinity or feminity in a way that is comfortable for you. Many men have no interest in taking the lead in a social setting. They're not succumbing to anything other than their own nature. If anything, the pressure to be a man in the way that you describe was something they had to overcome in order to be true to themselves. And sometimes it's not an identity issue at all and quite simple. My husband/PYL is pretty old school in many ways, but I don't think it would ever occur to him to order for me. It's just not that big of a deal to him either way. Now, who drives the car? That's another story.

I haven't had many experienes with the unisex either, but I did read that book Middlesex. Did your friends treat all females in the same way? There are plenty of gay men who are masculine and chivalrous -- the chivalry part in particular I think really reflects your culture and upbringing.

yes, any females in our general social group were treated the same. and i think some folks are not understanding what i mean by "unisex." unisex is the way many children are being raised today, the way my own mother attempted to raise me, the way that has rapidly become the "norm" in human behavior, customs and expectations. it recognizes nothing special about either femininity or masculinity...no special accommodations or considerations for female, or expectation of any special maturity or responsibility for male. my mother preached to me, "you can do anything a man can do, and better!" which isn't just technically false, but also pretty frickin undesirable. why would i want to do everything a man does? and if there's no difference between us, why are there different genders at all? was nature just on a variety kick? lol

and while it's all friendly and PC to talk about "choice"...be yourself, be who you want to be, and all that jazz...the reality is that mainstream society isn't and never has been tolerant of choices which fall outside the current socially acceptable norms. so if in 2010 america who you really are happens to be a man who is inclined to be even remotely authoritative and protective over women, or you happen to be a woman naturally inclined to be deferential toward men, then you are deemed abnormal and unacceptable, and thrown off to the fringes of pervosity. and that just sucks.

 

[the captians wench]

how likely is a man to see a woman as an intellectual equal if she isn't willing to even decide what she want to eat? that is a serious question. maybe some of the men can chime in here?

It's not like I'm saying I sit there with the waiter staring on and refuse to place an order. No one said I'm not willing to choose my own food. I have chosen my own food before, and infront of a man, and even given my order directly to the waiter.

But that's not the situation that was placed before us. Not how I saw it. The man asked his female companion what she would like, she told him, and he placed the order. At least that's how it apeared to me. And in my little bubble he would get high points for that simple act.

In my interactions with men, this was the scene more often than not. And while we waited on dinner to arrive, we had conversation. The whole reason we got to the point we were was most likely because we had spoken previously and he enjoyed my company and I his. Had that not been the case, we wouldn't be at dinner mainly because you do have to carry on conversation in a nice place or just sit there and stair at the table the entire night.

Being willing and able has nothing to do with it. And it may surprise you that I have bought my dates dinner before, and even gone half-sys with a few and didn't think any less of the man. But on a first date I do expect certian things, and they will be well aware of my views before it even gets to that point. They will probably get fucked either way, but if they would like to be asked to fuck again, they will fall into the catagory of the type of man that treats me the way I like to be treated.

And while I do respect that we all have choices to choose whether we want to be treated this way or not, I'm still going to feel a bit of sadness that it is not more prominate. Just like I feel a bit of sadness everytime I have to put on a bra and slacks instead of a corset and heavy dress. And I have every right to feel that sadness and express that sadness and it makes me no less an intellegant woman than some one who thinks women who don't split the bill are manipulative.

 

[KoPilot]

in case it's been forgotten, i can read. if you have a particular opinion about me, however derogatory, i can take it directly like a big girl.

I just said it in that quote there. I didn't think there was any reason to drag it all out.

 

[where]

FWIW, I don't tell people what they want to eat. I find out, and then order for them.

This is also a good spur for indecisive females. "She'll have X" waiter walks away "Um, I think I actually want Y" "Garcon!"

good, though for the record, if we ever do meet and you take me to dinner, I eat everything except offal, fish eggs and stuff that is still alive on my plate.

yes, you've got me pegged. i want to manipulate others by being treated like a woman. somehow i keep forgetting that exchanges with you are utterly pointless because you are incapable of having even the teensiest ounce of respect for those with a different perspective.

if you read your post, that is pretty much what you said you do. you get people to pay for you, even when they are poorer than you, you get them to stick up for you and treat you like something that is unable to fend for herself (though you are clearly able to carry stuff/whatever). Tell me, how is that not manipulative? how is that not absolving you of all and any responsibility?

I can respect perspectives if they are cogently argued. you are unable to do so. I'm not going to 'respect' you because you are basing your world view on a small and slightly skewed way of life and you expect that way of life to somehow be mainstream, hence you think it perfectly 'normal' for men to choose what women eat. If you want respect, then maybe you should try respecting other people's opinions, hmmm?

 

[Primalex]

and while it's all friendly and PC to talk about "choice"...be yourself, be who you want to be, and all that jazz...the reality is that mainstream society isn't and never has been tolerant of choices which fall outside the current socially acceptable norms. so if in 2010 america who you really are happens to be a man who is inclined to be even remotely authoritative and protective over women, or you happen to be a woman naturally inclined to be deferential toward men, then you are deemed abnormal and unacceptable, and thrown off to the fringes of pervosity. and that just sucks.

*scratches his chin*

I tend to agree.

 

[ownedsubgal]

It's not like I'm saying I sit there with the waiter staring on and refuse to place an order. No one said I'm not willing to choose my own food. I have chosen my own food before, and infront of a man, and even given my order directly to the waiter.

omg wenchie, i am so envious of you! when i'm in a restaurant and a server looks toward me and asks for my order, all i can manage to do is stare blankly ahead, and drool a little. but my male companion always does the chivalrous thing, and wipes my chin with his napkin.

Being willing and able has nothing to do with it. And it may surprise you that I have bought my dates dinner before, and even gone half-sys with a few and didn't think any less of the man. But on a first date I do expect certian things, and they will be well aware of my views before it even gets to that point. They will probably get fucked either way, but if they would like to be asked to fuck again, they will fall into the catagory of the type of man that treats me the way I like to be treated.

And while I do respect that we all have choices to choose whether we want to be treated this way or not, I'm still going to feel a bit of sadness that it is not more prominate. Just like I feel a bit of sadness everytime I have to put on a bra and slacks instead of a corset and heavy dress. And I have every right to feel that sadness and express that sadness and it makes me no less an intellegant woman than some one who thinks women who don't split the bill are manipulative.

no you don't! your sadness invalidates the choices of others, dangit!

*sigh*...that's why i try not to let myself dwell on these things too long, it's all just way too depressing, and from all appearances it's only getting worse.

btw...i highly resent the notion that i'm either manipulative or dumb as rocks because i appreciate being looked after, even in a casual way, by a man. and if i were in a position to so desperately need my mails paid for, i doubt i would have given literally thousands of dollars to people in my lifetime just because they needed it (or claimed to). i've never been able to turn my back on a sob story. as for dining out, if i'm out one-on-one with someone i don't know well i always offer to pay...for us both.

 

[rosco rathbone]

good, though for the record, if we ever do meet and you take me to dinner, I eat everything except offal, fish eggs and stuff that is still alive on my plate.

No live prawns with wiggly feelers for you eh.

This whole thing about manners reminds me of going about the city with my (female) Japanese band-mate. We'd come to a door, I'd automatically hold it open for her, and she'd automatically wait for me to go through first. We'd stand there looking at each other, and since one of us had to feel uncomfortable, I'd be the gent and conform to her etiquette-world.

 

[Primalex]

Tell me, how is that not manipulative?

If I post this now, then I (try to) manipulate you to write a reply, too.

Should I feel bad about hitting the Submit button? Will my posting remove your responsibility to decide whether you will reply or not? And where will our respect be?

No idea, let's figure it out.

*click*

 

[teknight]

This might have been brought up, or it might not have (I've not looked through all 100 and some posts), but do we have a definition on what manners are?

I hate having to use the wiki default, but I've not found a better example:

In sociology, manners are the unenforced standards of conduct which demonstrate that a person is proper, polite, and refined.

Manners are not a problem if everyone's been taught the same set. However, that's no longer the case- and I'm not sure people are fully aware of the fact. What's needed is a return to manners' basics, not their trappings, but their purpose, which, granted, is more difficult.

 

[sb2009]

This might have been brought up, or it might not have (I've not looked through all 100 and some posts), but do we have a definition on what manners are?

I hate having to use the wiki default, but I've not found a better example:


Manners are not a problem if everyone's been taught the same set. However, that's no longer the case- and I'm not sure people are fully aware of the fact. What's needed is a return to manners' basics, not their trappings, but their purpose, which, granted, is more difficult.

Very good point. If everyone learned the same basic manners, we'd all be fine. The guy in the OP learned to order what he wanted for the woman he was dining with; many men I've dined with have learned to ask what I would l like, then to order it for me.

We can all go on about these anecdotal situations, but at best, the guy made a faux pas. Was he a jerk? Nervous? Asshole? Absentminded? That's what gettting to know someone is all about.

 

[where]

Yes, it has been going on for a long time and I don't expect it to stop. I do what I can to resist, but it's like trying to stop the tide.

but it's not a 'tide' there is nothing to resist. you are being paranoid.

It's not like I'm saying I sit there with the waiter staring on and refuse to place an order. No one said I'm not willing to choose my own food. I have chosen my own food before, and infront of a man, and even given my order directly to the waiter.

OK, you are clearly not a proper sub

But that's not the situation that was placed before us. Not how I saw it. The man asked his female companion what she would like, she told him, and he placed the order. At least that's how it apeared to me. And in my little bubble he would get high points for that simple act.

I think I've already said that that situation would, in most situations be considered plain old-fashioned good manners. But the OP was actually about the man presuming what his date wanted to eat.

In my interactions with men, this was the scene more often than not. And while we waited on dinner to arrive, we had conversation. The whole reason we got to the point we were was most likely because we had spoken previously and he enjoyed my company and I his. Had that not been the case, we wouldn't be at dinner mainly because you do have to carry on conversation in a nice place or just sit there and stair at the table the entire night.

Being willing and able has nothing to do with it. And it may surprise you that I have bought my dates dinner before, and even gone half-sys with a few and didn't think any less of the man. But on a first date I do expect certian things, and they will be well aware of my views before it even gets to that point. They will probably get fucked either way, but if they would like to be asked to fuck again, they will fall into the catagory of the type of man that treats me the way I like to be treated.

And while I do respect that we all have choices to choose whether we want to be treated this way or not, I'm still going to feel a bit of sadness that it is not more prominate. Just like I feel a bit of sadness everytime I have to put on a bra and slacks instead of a corset and heavy dress. And I have every right to feel that sadness and express that sadness and it makes me no less an intellegant woman than some one who thinks women who don't split the bill are manipulative.

uh, first of all, I do NOT think women who don't split the bill are manipulative nor unintelligent. the host of whatever gender pays, in my book. nor do I think women should dress like men. women should wear what the hell they want to wear (and btw... I wore a corset to work all last week. the excuse of 'a bad back' shuts up co-workers comments). I don't see why you need to be sad about it though. The work wear you may have to wear is just a form of uniform. Clothes define roles to some extent, so at work you are just in a different role for a very short time. lets face it, women didn't wear corsets all the time in the 18th and 19th C, so why would we?

 

[where]

No live prawns with wiggly feelers for you eh.

This whole thing about manners reminds me of going about the city with my (female) Japanese band-mate. We'd come to a door, I'd automatically hold it open for her, and she'd automatically wait for me to go through first. We'd stand there looking at each other, and since one of us had to feel uncomfortable, I'd be the gent and conform to her etiquette-world.

basically, if you steer clear of caviar, live oysters and foie gras, we'll be fine.

If I post this now, then I (try to) manipulate you to write a reply, too.

Should I feel bad about hitting the Submit button? Will my posting remove your responsibility to decide whether you will reply or not? And where will our respect be?

No idea, let's figure it out.

*click*

sorry, you lost me at you hitting the submit button.

 

[intothewoods]

yes, any females in our general social group were treated the same. and i think some folks are not understanding what i mean by "unisex." unisex is the way many children are being raised today, the way my own mother attempted to raise me, the way that has rapidly become the "norm" in human behavior, customs and expectations. it recognizes nothing special about either femininity or masculinity...no special accommodations or considerations for female, or expectation of any special maturity or responsibility for male. my mother preached to me, "you can do anything a man can do, and better!" which isn't just technically false, but also pretty frickin undesirable. why would i want to do everything a man does? and if there's no difference between us, why are there different genders at all? was nature just on a variety kick? lol

and while it's all friendly and PC to talk about "choice"...be yourself, be who you want to be, and all that jazz...the reality is that mainstream society isn't and never has been tolerant of choices which fall outside the current socially acceptable norms.

Sorry, but this entire post just strikes me as fantasy land. I live in a place in which there are plenty of parents who make an effort not to impose traditional gender norms on their kids, and let me tell you, none of that requires you to ignore real differences between boys and girls. I don't know one parent who does this, not one. It's as plain as night and day that there are differences between boys and girls, even if you force your boy to have a doll or buy your girl toy monster trucks. Does. Not. Matter. No parent that I know would say otherwise. There is a difference between ignoring gender and recognizing that not all kids fit into a particular box.

so if in 2010 america who you really are happens to be a man who is inclined to be even remotely authoritative and protective over women, or you happen to be a woman naturally inclined to be deferential toward men, then you are deemed abnormal and unacceptable, and thrown off to the fringes of pervosity. and that just sucks.

I know plenty of men who are more than remotely authoritative and protective and I know plenty of women who are deferential towards men. They aren't involved in bdsm, aren't deemed abnormal or unacceptable. What you describe is not some major deviation from mainstream culture.

 

[CutieMouse]

One of the last dates I had with a former lover was grabbing lunch at an inexpensive place down the street. He'd just taken me on a 4 day vacation through Hill Country (I didn't pay for anything because I didn't have much expendible at that point); I had the funds to pick up a $20 lunch the next time we got together, so I paid.

He expressed serious discomfort with my doing so; it was the first, last, and only time I paid for anything [with him]... at the time I had a steady paycheck; he was on deliquency month #9 of a (one and only) client who owed him $250k. It didn't matter to him that my finances meant that my brokeness was less than his; he still felt responsible for the check.

 

[Keroin]

and while it's all friendly and PC to talk about "choice"...be yourself, be who you want to be, and all that jazz...the reality is that mainstream society isn't and never has been tolerant of choices which fall outside the current socially acceptable norms. so if in 2010 america who you really are happens to be a man who is inclined to be even remotely authoritative and protective over women, or you happen to be a woman naturally inclined to be deferential toward men, then you are deemed abnormal and unacceptable, and thrown off to the fringes of pervosity. and that just sucks.

My love of choice has nothing to do with being PC. I've made plenty of choices in my live that were not socially acceptable, heck my whole life path was met with resistance at practically every turn. Choices aren't always easy but being true to yourself is always worth it.

 

[RunningJib]

Back in the sixties

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

Back in the sixties that would be okay.

However, I think it would be appropriate for the gentleman to ask if he should order for his companion and then to confirm her preferences.

Ditto for the BDSM world. The Master is there to pleasure and to expand the sub's experience. It has been my experience that this an incremental process. That is to say, total control is not granted immediately--it is earned in the same fashion as trust is earned.

 

[rosco rathbone]

but it's not a 'tide' there is nothing to resist. you are being paranoid.

I think we'd agree that the phenomena under discussion are actually happening. We just disagree on the interpretation, which probably comes down to some philosophical thing about the meaning of "female" or "male".

 

[sb2009]

where are all these strong men being thrust onto the outskirts of society? honestly? this is being said without tongue-in-cheek? And women who are deferential to men are outliers as well? Where the hell is this place? Not where I've lived for the past 41 (and some odd) years.

And for the record, I've raised my girls to not be CONSTRICTED by their gender, but I have certainly not ignored that they are girls. So I buy my kid pretty bras from Victoria's secret AND write a check to the school to pay for her wrestling team uniform.