A Master's 'right' to play with others

[satindesire]

Goes to show that we talk about these labels more than we actually use them

That's true! Labels are important to people. They're part of our identity, and although SOME people don't like them, I think that's probably due to the fact that they can't find one that fits their own perception of what/who they are.

 

[ownedsubgal]

In my local group, it seems like T and b are used more like PYL and pyl. Rather than explain, well, I'm a sadist, sometimes daddy or I'm a sadist not a dominant, or I'm a master with some but blah blah with others, etc. etc., folks will sometimes use T and b instead.

the majority of the folks we've come across in the public scene seem to find T/b labels insulting, yet as far as i can tell that would most accurately describe most. there are especially a lot of folks who refer to themselves as M or s, or their personal relationship as M/s, when their interests are limited to bdsm and erotic activities and they actually eschew any form of power exchange whatsoever. this has been the cause for a great deal of frustration for Daddy and i when trying to get to know people.

 

[Homburg]

the majority of the folks we've come across in the public scene seem to find T/b labels insulting, yet as far as i can tell that would most accurately describe most. there are especially a lot of folks who refer to themselves as M or s, or their personal relationship as M/s, when their interests are limited to bdsm and erotic activities and they actually eschew any form of power exchange whatsoever. this has been the cause for a great deal of frustration for Daddy and i when trying to get to know people.

The bolded part is likely why they are so insulted. People don't like inconvenient truths.

 

[ownedsubgal]

The bolded part is likely why they are so insulted. People don't like inconvenient truths.

true that.

 

[FloggingMolly]

Do people then feel deep down that somehow T/b is 'less than' D/s is 'less than' M/s? That by the idea of 'only' being T/b, their relationship isnt 'proper' bdsm?

 

[satindesire]

Do people then feel deep down that somehow T/b is 'less than' D/s is 'less than' M/s? That by the idea of 'only' being T/b, their relationship isnt 'proper' bdsm?

I think that yes, a lot of people probably secretly think that slavery is "better" than submission, and submission is "better" than bottoming.

But I sincerely doubt anyone would admit it out loud.

Humans are by nature judgmental.

I will say this, though, most of the people on this site (this forum specifically I mean) are really nice people and don't think that way.

 

[eastern sun]

Do people then feel deep down that somehow T/b is 'less than' D/s is 'less than' M/s? That by the idea of 'only' being T/b, their relationship isnt 'proper' bdsm?

Not me. No way.

I first heard T/b used in the queer scene, and M/s used in the queer leather scene. I never heard D/s used at all until I logged on to the internet.

And I never in my wildest dreams thought T/b was "less than" D/s.


edited to add - and M/s is only "more than" or "less than" any other relationship depending on which scale you're using and which specific relationships you're comparing.

 

[intothewoods]

the majority of the folks we've come across in the public scene seem to find T/b labels insulting, yet as far as i can tell that would most accurately describe most. there are especially a lot of folks who refer to themselves as M or s, or their personal relationship as M/s, when their interests are limited to bdsm and erotic activities and they actually eschew any form of power exchange whatsoever. this has been the cause for a great deal of frustration for Daddy and i when trying to get to know people.

Really? Is this Black Rose or some other group? I know very few people who even discuss the intimate D/s aspects of their relationship. Most just gab about play, and then relationship details are kept kind of private. I'm not exactly active in the scene though, and the people I'm buddies with aren't the whole group. Also, most people I know are queer or bi.

Do people then feel deep down that somehow T/b is 'less than' D/s is 'less than' M/s? That by the idea of 'only' being T/b, their relationship isnt 'proper' bdsm?

I could care less. I'm just not in the market for a relationship, so it doesn't matter. If there's any sense of superiority, I think it's on the whole poly-mono divide. I know of one couple who is monogamous, and they still play with other people (mostly longtime friends). They just don't fuck anyone else.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Really? Is this Black Rose or some other group? I know very few people who even discuss the intimate D/s aspects of their relationship. Most just gab about play, and then relationship details are kept kind of private. I'm not exactly active in the scene though, and the people I'm buddies with aren't the whole group. Also, most people I know are queer or bi.

i don't think it's any single group, it's just an attitude we've noticed with most of the people we've met in person, whether at the big events, at the munch Daddy used to attend (not sure the group who sponsors it, but it's at the 201 lounge), or even just private meetings with other couples arranged by Daddy. He'll initially meet someone online who espouses all of these M/s relationship ideals, then when we meet them in person we learn that "master" and "slave" are just labels that turn them on, and furthermore they are totally appalled at the idea that anyone actually lives that way. it's really strange imo, embracing a label opposed to not just the way you live, but what you believe.

since we aren't into bdsm play ourselves, we do try to avoid environments with that focus. of course, we don't always succeed, lol.

 

[Stella_Omega]

In my local group, it seems like T and b are used more like PYL and pyl. Rather than explain, well, I'm a sadist, sometimes daddy or I'm a sadist not a dominant, or I'm a master with some but blah blah with others, etc. etc., folks will sometimes use T and b instead.

Yeppers, this is where I come from. And what I seeing here are a lot of people who, as ownedsubgal says;

the majority of the folks we've come across in the public scene seem to find T/b labels insulting, yet as far as i can tell that would most accurately describe most. there are especially a lot of folks who refer to themselves as M or s, or their personal relationship as M/s, when their interests are limited to bdsm and erotic activities and they actually eschew any form of power exchange whatsoever. this has been the cause for a great deal of frustration for Daddy and i when trying to get to know people.

That has to be incredibly frustrating to you when so few people live with the totally owned mindset that you do, and insist on misnaming themselves.

And there is nothing "merely" as someone above mentioned, about topping / bottoming in BDSM minus the D/s lifestyle.

That is insulting.

ETA: ownedsubgal has just corroborated my guess. I'm sorry sweetheart-- what you are is so incredibly rare.

 

[satindesire]

Yeppers, this is where I come from. And what I seeing here are a lot of people who, as ownedsubgal says;

That has to be incredibly frustrating to you when so few people live with the totally owned mindset that you do, and insist on misnaming themselves.

And there is nothing "merely" as someone above mentioned, about topping / bottoming in BDSM minus the D/s lifestyle.

That is insulting.

Well, to them, that isn't a misname.

I akin this to the same as labeling sexuality.

Can a guy be straight if he occasionally blows other guys?

Well, if he says he is, that's what he thinks he is, then I suppose that's what he is.

Other people's perceptions of their labels matter much less than THEIR perceptions. As we've seen before in the past, the way a person views themselves has a far more weighty argument than even a mass agreement of other people.

 

[intothewoods]

i don't think it's any single group, it's just an attitude we've noticed with most of the people we've met in person, whether at the big events, at the munch Daddy used to attend (not sure the group who sponsors it, but it's at the 201 lounge), or even just private meetings with other couples arranged by Daddy. He'll initially meet someone online who espouses all of these M/s relationship ideals, then when we meet them in person we learn that "master" and "slave" are just labels that turn them on, and furthermore they are totally appalled at the idea that anyone actually lives that way. it's really strange imo, embracing a label opposed to not just the way you live, but what you believe.

since we aren't into bdsm play ourselves, we do try to avoid environments with that focus. of course, we don't always succeed, lol.

DC TNG???? Ok, admittedly I haven't been in ages, but my impression of that group is a whole bunch of people who want to screw, and a heavy dollop of prodommes, since the group does stuff with a FDomme or Prodomme group in the area. I don't recall a lot of people who ID as M/s. Anyway, I get that you're talking about more than that particular group. That's fine. I do know people locally who have power exchange relationships, but like I said, they're more private about those details and would prefer to chat about bdsm play.

And when my PYL and I go out to events, we really don't get into what our relationship is all about. I'm sure most of this is due to the fact that we know a few people already, and don't really talk to that many new people, but also my PYL is fairly private.

Well, to them, that isn't a misname.

I akin this to the same as labeling sexuality.

Can a guy be straight if he occasionally blows other guys?

Well, if he says he is, that's what he thinks he is, then I suppose that's what he is.

Other people's perceptions of their labels matter much less than THEIR perceptions. As we've seen before in the past, the way a person views themselves has a far more weighty argument than even a mass agreement of other people.

Errrr. You can only deviate so much from a word's generally understood meaning. I mean, I could label myself an African American man too.

 

[satindesire]

Errrr. You can only deviate so much from a word's generally understood meaning. I mean, I could label myself an African American man too.

That's exactly my point. Even if everyone on the planet agrees on a different label than what you might give yourself, their opinions aren't going to matter as much as what you think of yourself!

Sorry, I guess I didn't explain myself very clearly.

 

[FungiUg]

I am not a colour on a nametag

Dammit.

Throws away his Homburg-coloured nametag.

 

[FungiUg]

Do people then feel deep down that somehow T/b is 'less than' D/s is 'less than' M/s? That by the idea of 'only' being T/b, their relationship isnt 'proper' bdsm?

Some do, let's be honest. Just as some feel that BDSM is somehow "better" than "vanilla" (now there's a label I loathe!)

Relationships should be what we make of them as individuals, and not some need comparison to others. I don't think the human race really works that way though.

The unattainable ideal, I guess.

 

[HB1965]

In the past 2 years since I came out as a switch, I've pretty much exclusively been in the PYL role. I've had several "situations" as I would call them with different women. One of them, actually became something more, and that proved to be too difficult for me. I found that I wanted an equal partner rather than a submissive when it came to the emotional side of things.

I think what Homburg says is very true. These arrangements are all about what people want them to be. If the terms of being "his" slave are that you are the only one that has to be something he agrees to. If he tells you that to be "his" slave you have to accept that he will do as he chooses with other it's what you have to accept. If that's not something you can handle he may not be the one you should be with.

In the end I think you have to decide for yourself what you want.

 

[sb2009]

From my experiences with actual peopel (vs computer people ;-), the in-person discussions rarely are about relationship stuff, other than a quick "I'm with him" or "we are married/together" type stuff. Which is more of a introductory thing, anyway.

But online, at Fetlife for example? For me, it's between the lines everywhere, that T/b are just people who want to fuck, D/s are a due a bit more respect and M/s is where the real stuff is.

I remember one particular thread in the Submissive Women forum that stated about hair and would someone cut it for a *potential* Dom..as in he said at the first meeting he required all subs he was considered to cut thier hair very short. It was interesting to see how everyone felt about thier hair ;-) but there was a lot of thinly veiled "some of you only submit when it makes your clit throb, but won't do the hard stuff" and that was coming fom the people are are hard-core M/s - who have in thier profiles or thier posts state that they are real-time 24/7 TPE.

At first, becuase I am really really new to interacting with people, I had a wierd doubting thing, about myself, whether I was really submissive. I even wrote a wierd post in my journal that I am not deleting even though it's embarassing.

After a few months and some experience meeting people in person and (some reminders from my husband about how I also tend to think that people are always telling the truth online LOL) I realize that for me, to take everything so seriously and navel gaze about how real my submission is just sort of sucks the fun out of it.

 

[Bandit58]

At first, becuase I am really really new to interacting with people, I had a wierd doubting thing, about myself, whether I was really submissive. I even wrote a wierd post in my journal that I am not deleting even though it's embarassing.

After a few months and some experience meeting people in person and (some reminders from my husband about how I also tend to think that people are always telling the truth online LOL) I realize that for me, to take everything so seriously and navel gaze about how real my submission is just sort of sucks the fun out of it.

I had that feeling too early on, but after more than 6 years in a D/s relationship we do what makes us happy and what works, and stuff what other people think

We joke that we both would be kicked out of the "Real & Twue Doms and Subs Club" if they saw how we interact sometimes

 

[Homburg]

Dammit.

Throws away his Homburg-coloured nametag.

I suddenly find myself wanting a Homburg-coloured nametag just to see what it looks like.

--

In the end I think you have to decide for yourself what you want.

*waves at HB*

Hiya!!

 

[Black_Bunny]

That's true! Labels are important to people. They're part of our identity, and although SOME people don't like them, I think that's probably due to the fact that they can't find one that fits their own perception of what/who they are.

The reason I don't like labels is because of the risk of offending others. I'll say what I want in my own private home, but online and when meeting other couples it's like I have to tiptoe around and be careful what I say in case someone goes "hey! you're not a slave!" or "oh, so you think you're better than me because I'm a bottom and you're a submissive". I wish there was some way of having some blanket terms that everyone agreed on, but I'll guess there will always be disagreement, much like my friend who has parents of different nationalities, she identifies as Aboriginal but because she has white skin, the world looks at her and tells her she's wrong.

I know of one couple who is monogamous, and they still play with other people (mostly longtime friends). They just don't fuck anyone else.

I'm very interested, how do they 'play' without fucking?

the majority of the folks we've come across in the public scene seem to find T/b labels insulting, yet as far as i can tell that would most accurately describe most. there are especially a lot of folks who refer to themselves as M or s, or their personal relationship as M/s, when their interests are limited to bdsm and erotic activities and they actually eschew any form of power exchange whatsoever. this has been the cause for a great deal of frustration for Daddy and i when trying to get to know people.

I can see why some would find T/b labels insulting if it was said to them with disdain, as in "you are JUST a bottom" or "you are ONLY a Top". The labels themselves I don't have a problem with, but I know my personal life better than you and I know how much of my non-sexual life involves dominance and submission better than you. (Not you personally ownedsubgal, I mean someone who might be pointing their finger at me telling me the label I identify with is wrong ) I can see the problem of being unsure how others relationships work when getting to know people, I would think it wouldn't be all that difficult for the new party to explain themselves a bit with their introduction, of for you to ask a few questions in order to clarify.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I suddenly find myself wanting a Homburg-coloured nametag just to see what it looks like.

My Homburg was a warm mouse grey... if that helps?

Labels mean things to people. And other people's assessments of those labels are very meaningful. Look at me, all bristly because some of you seem to be denigrating SM and physical play...

I'm thinking to myself; "yeah, she says she honors my choices, but I can tell she doesn't..."

And that on very little actual evidence, you understand.

We label ourselves, and woe betide the person what ain't impressed with our label.

 

[sb2009]

very true Stella Omega, i think it's something that is hard to *not* do sometimes.

I changed my status on Fetlife to bottom awhile ago becuase I felt like i was a poseur if I said sub. I haven't chagned it back yet because I realized I just don't know what I am totall yet.

A friend and i were talking about ownership the other day, and he said something that felt right to me, along the lines of "being owned to me is about me worshipping someone with everything I have, not about whether she looks like a dominatrix from a book." Yeah, pretty obvious, but I felt a "hey, he's got a point, there is so much written down but really, it's living it that means something, living it how it works for me.

 

[Etoile]

I'm very interested, how do they 'play' without fucking?

Rope play, play piercings, fire play, floggings, public scenes, pony play, boot licking, wax play, furniture play...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_(BDSM)
http://web.archive.org/web/20071016052316/ms.ha.md.us/~tammad/over21/bondage/sub-checklist.html

 

[Black_Bunny]

Rope play, play piercings, fire play, floggings, public scenes, pony play, boot licking, wax play, furniture play...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_(BDSM)
http://web.archive.org/web/20071016052316/ms.ha.md.us/~tammad/over21/bondage/sub-checklist.html

Thanks for the links, I didn't realise people did those things with others without including sex... I'm not sure I understand how it would work, doing those things with someone who's not your partner and then either having no sexual release, or leaving the poor third person alone to go fuck your partner?

 

[BiBunny]

Thanks for the links, I didn't realise people did those things with others without including sex... I'm not sure I understand how it would work, doing those things with someone who's not your partner and then either having no sexual release, or leaving the poor third person alone to go fuck your partner?

It's not necessarily sexual for some people, at least not in the "must get off now" kind of way.