A Master's 'right' to play with others

[Firmhanded_Daddy]

Well, I don't normally come to this area of the board, but hell I was reading this thread and found it extremely interesting. So after reading the whole thing I felt the need to chime in.

First off I find it interesting to watch people interact with one another. Always been interesting to me on some level.

To the OP first question I can tell you from the perspective of my own unique style of Dominance that the only rights that I claim are rights that myself and Mine have hammered out together. Both in the initial stages of our relationship, and as it has evolved. Working on your relationship is never an outdated practice, and there are times when it isn't fun, but it's going to change no matter what, it's better to have an active hand in it so that you can shape it into something that fulfills your needs.

Every PYL/pyl relationship is unique. If you are not in a unique relationship then you may want to examine it more closely. I don't believe there are many rules that apply to any relationship, Vanilla or otherwise. However I think two of them are key. The first one is discover yourself. Know what you want, what you need, and what you can do without. Understand that your needs must be met, or you will be unhappy and as a consequence your relationship will suffer.

Another important rule is to communicate with your partner. If you need something and it is not being met, you have to tell your partner, or they cannot fix it. Some people are better than others at reading people, some are really good, some are totally hopeless. The burden of proof falls on your shoulders, so to speak.

Your dynamic with your partner(s) will change as time and life take you in new directions. One of my hard limits has gradually become a soft limit, and now with My one it has become something I explore with her, as it is a very definite need of hers, and I take joy in providing her with what she needs. It took a lot of self reflection and a little bit of exploration on my part to figure out this was something I could do, and still maintain my own stable mentality. I found out that it is something I take pleasure in. Not for the act in itself, but in the profound effect and pleasure that she takes from it.

Our relationship is by far the most intense I have ever had. I have needs that she meets that until we were together I never knew were needs.

As can be seen by the various people who are discussing their own situations, each person has their own role, defined in essence by what they want and need to feel. Some feel that only utter surrender will sate them. Others need a more cooperative role and to feel included.

For me, I don't think I could ever be with a woman who saw themselves as a slave. Not that I think badly upon those who view themselves that way, but my own view on how a man should treat a woman is so stringent that I would clash heavily with someone who held a view point that they were property.

My baby girl knows that she is the only one that I want and that I take great pleasure out of spoiling the hell out of her Then again she sure as hell spoils me all the time so it's a good dynamic for us.

I guess my point in all of this rambling is don't let other people determine how you see yourself, or your relationship. It is YOUR relationship and you need to find out it's boundaries for yourself.

 

[Black_Bunny]

How do you feel about a Master or Dominant saying to his slave or submissive, "I want you to have freedom of choice in this and that area"?

That sounds to me like a whole lot of assumption. After all, if the slavery is only in the bedroom that doesn't give a lot of area for actual choices. Unless you mean... "I want you to have freedom of choice" regarding some sexual practice?

I was speaking more to those who view themselves in an ownership-type relationship, questioning how they would feel if their PYL said to them, "you have freedom of choice in this" in both sexual and non-sexual aspects of life. Much like, I view myself as being owned by my PYL, yet he has said to me "everything must be decided consensually". He is the Top, Master, what have you, so whatever he says goes, and what he says is - I must have some input. Having said that, he's not afraid to push my limits without 'asking' me first, he just trusts that I will tell him I'm not comfortable with it. But that more applies to something new he may quickly try between us, rather than a long, planned-out event involving a third person.

I personally couldn't be with someone who wanted to go outside my hard limits. I have very few, but they're integral to my emotional health, so anyone who wanted to go past that would really damage me as a person.

I don't think that makes me less of a submissive than person x, I think that just makes me different.

Exactly, I agree. I'm just having trouble figuring out where my soft and hard limits even are, I guess. And I do feel a little strange even saying that I have the rights to such limits, but after the conversation with my PYL I feel better about it

 

[Etoile]

I was speaking more to those who view themselves in an ownership-type relationship, questioning how they would feel if their PYL said to them, "you have freedom of choice in this" in both sexual and non-sexual aspects of life. Much like, I view myself as being owned by my PYL, yet he has said to me "everything must be decided consensually". He is the Top, Master, what have you, so whatever he says goes, and what he says is - I must have some input. Having said that, he's not afraid to push my limits without 'asking' me first, he just trusts that I will tell him I'm not comfortable with it. But that more applies to something new he may quickly try between us, rather than a long, planned-out event involving a third person.

Exactly, I agree. I'm just having trouble figuring out where my soft and hard limits even are, I guess. And I do feel a little strange even saying that I have the rights to such limits, but after the conversation with my PYL I feel better about it

Just a question - if you aren't sure what your soft/hard limits are, do you really feel safe going further? Those things are something that should be established prior to activity, not after a line is crossed and a problem arises.

 

[seela]

Exactly, I agree. I'm just having trouble figuring out where my soft and hard limits even are, I guess. And I do feel a little strange even saying that I have the rights to such limits, but after the conversation with my PYL I feel better about it

I started with making clear what things were perfectly ok and what I wanted to experience and then worked from there when I tried to establish my limits. A lot of my limits actually came after I had started to experience, because I learned about new things and learned about my sensations. It was almost impossible for me to know how I would react to some things, because I had never experienced anything even remotely similar.

Take it easy, make sure your PYL knows what you are comfortable with and what you might be comfortable with. If your PYL is experienced, I'm sure they can introduce some new things to you without rushing it or pushing your limits too far based on what you know you like.

That said, my limits are different with different people. The hardest of the hardest, like no kids are a no brainer with everybody, but some things have fluctuated between soft and hard depending on the PYL. Currently I'm not in a position to have any limits. But because we're interested in fairly similar things, I feel comfortable with this.

 

[Black_Bunny]

don't let other people determine how you see yourself, or your relationship. It is YOUR relationship and you need to find out it's boundaries for yourself.

Thank you for all your comments

Just a question - if you aren't sure what your soft/hard limits are, do you really feel safe going further? Those things are something that should be established prior to activity, not after a line is crossed and a problem arises.

Definitely I agree. This hasn't come up because there's a problem, eg we've gone too far before I'd decided if it was a limit. We have gone nowhere near 'the line' so to speak, I'm just trying to figure out my limits so that when the time does come, I'm prepared. As my PYL said when I had the discussion with him the other day, I'm "always thinking of the future"

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I was speaking more to those who view themselves in an ownership-type relationship, questioning how they would feel if their PYL said to them, "you have freedom of choice in this" in both sexual and non-sexual aspects of life. Much like, I view myself as being owned by my PYL, yet he has said to me "everything must be decided consensually". He is the Top, Master, what have you, so whatever he says goes, and what he says is - I must have some input. Having said that, he's not afraid to push my limits without 'asking' me first, he just trusts that I will tell him I'm not comfortable with it. But that more applies to something new he may quickly try between us, rather than a long, planned-out event involving a third person.

That would actually make me very happy.

I don't deal with being micromanaged, I don't need every little thing instructed and checked. I work better if I get given a general guideline, a set of rules, a space to work within, and then am left to do what is needed/wanted.

I also like what I see as the inherent trust in being given certain freedoms. I'm not going to abuse them, I generally end up using them to take care of him anyway.

And you're right, if he's saying you must have input, he's still in control, is he not?

Exactly, I agree. I'm just having trouble figuring out where my soft and hard limits even are, I guess. And I do feel a little strange even saying that I have the rights to such limits, but after the conversation with my PYL I feel better about it

This one I think depends on how you view your submission. I think elsewhere, osg pointed out the difference between the instinctual and inspired submissive. She's of the instinctual kinds, and would probably say that in her relationship she doesn't have the rights to such limits.

Whereas myself on the other hand, I'd fall under the inspired category. One man brings about my submission. I'm not naturally submissive to all others as well. As such, our relationship is definitely a collaborative effort. I get to state where my limits lie, he gets to push up against them, and stretch them out a little. Some, we've even bent into a significant pretzel to the point of non existence. I get to have a safeword, although I don't think we actually have a specific word, but he knows me well enough to know the difference between 'seriously, stop' and 'oh no, stop, please.'

You've every right to a limit that would affect your emotional health.

Which brings me to a question for those whose slavery is absolute: What happens if the Master/Mistresses's taste change towards something that you personally would nbot cope with emotionally? Is the fact that it's his/her request/demand enough to get through that?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Just a question - if you aren't sure what your soft/hard limits are, do you really feel safe going further? Those things are something that should be established prior to activity, not after a line is crossed and a problem arises.

Is a soft limit really a limit though, or is it just an 'unknown' ?

I usually view my soft limits as things I'm not sure about, but could be game to try in the right situation with the right partner. And yes, that includes feeling safe enough to try it. They're mostly things that I have no absolute established idea about, just a fair bit of trepidation, over that 'unknown' factor and feel that going forth and trying is the only way to decide one way or the other.

Mind you, the amount of trepidation varies depending on the activity. Watersports was a small one, needles a massive amount.

That's just me though.

 

[Black_Bunny]

And you're right, if he's saying you must have input, he's still in control, is he not?

I think elsewhere, osg pointed out the difference between the instinctual and inspired submissive. I'd fall under the inspired category. One man brings about my submission. I'm not naturally submissive to all others as well.

I'd said to him, 'tell me what to wear, tell me how you want me to do everything'... and he hasn't. And it makes me wonder, in the back of my mind did I already know that he didn't want to control every aspect of my life, and that's what made me so willing to give him control of those things?

I've felt and enjoyed being submissive all my life, not to everyone but just to those I was in a relationship with. But never more so than with my Dominant, and I guess that's because he's actually a Dominant (as opposed to trying to submit to a vanilla guy who wants nothing to do with D/s)

 

[Black_Bunny]

Is a soft limit really a limit though, or is it just an 'unknown' ?

I've questioned that too... what is a 'soft' limit?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I'd said to him, 'tell me what to wear, tell me how you want me to do everything'... and he hasn't. And it makes me wonder, in the back of my mind did I already know that he didn't want to control every aspect of my life, and that's what made me so willing to give him control of those things?

I've felt and enjoyed being submissive all my life, not to everyone but just to those I was in a relationship with. But never more so than with my Dominant, and I guess that's because he's actually a Dominant (as opposed to trying to submit to a vanilla guy who wants nothing to do with D/s)

It could be. Knowing someone wants to control every aspect can be a daunting proposition. I think if I came up against that, I'd dig my heels in. I wouldn't go quietly. I'd fight it. And now that you've said that, I think I might be the same. I often find myself wishing for more/other controls, but our circumstances don't allow for it.

I've never experienced that feeling of trying to submit to a vanilla person. I hadn't been in a relationship prior to discovering that I'd like a D/s one. I came close, but the cloying, fawning, over closeness of the few boys who liked me was enough to send me running the other way. I've only been in one other relationship, and when he stopped being dominant, I gradually stopped being submissive. And grew progessively more unhappy and felt overwhelmed.

 

[ownedsubgal]

How do you feel about a Master or Dominant saying to his slave or submissive, "I want you to have freedom of choice in this and that area"?

well that would depend on the area. my Master gives me freedom of choice on many of the small everyday things in life. like, we may be at the ice cream shop and he will say, "what would you like?" but i'm guessing you meant the bigger stuff, huh?

i would be completely overwhelmed and anxiety-ridden if i were given the freedom of choice in an area of any significance. my brain would be desperately trying to figure out which option he would like for me, what he would want me to do, but not being able to guarantee that i am acting in accordance with his desires would just send me into a panic. when major choices are presented to me, i tend to become paralyzed into inaction. i'd rather do nothing, choose nothing, then have to come up with it all on my own.

but that is because of the way i'm wired. like Lizzie said, when you get into submissive personalities there are basically two types, imo...those who naturally submit when they are inspired to do so, and those who submit instinctually, more as a reflex. i fall into the latter group...submitting does not necessarily make me happy or bring me some sort of pleasure, it is just the most natural way for me to interact with the world. being forced into a situation where i cannot submit, where i cannot follow and must independently find my own way, makes me extremely uncomfortable (to put it mildly lol).

 

[Homburg]

i would be completely overwhelmed and anxiety-ridden if i were given the freedom of choice in an area of any significance. my brain would be desperately trying to figure out which option he would like for me, what he would want me to do, but not being able to guarantee that i am acting in accordance with his desires would just send me into a panic. when major choices are presented to me, i tend to become paralyzed into inaction. i'd rather do nothing, choose nothing, then have to come up with it all on my own.

MIS and viv are both like this, with viv being literally this way. On the big stuff I still expect input though. I like to discuss things, talk out options and so forth before I decide. Like the parable of Lao Tzu and the dolt, worthwhile questions can come from often unexpected sources.

But I still decide, no worries on that

 

[BiBunny]

MIS and viv are both like this, with viv being literally this way.

I'm that way, too. Lucky me.

 

[Homburg]

I'm that way, too. Lucky me.

I don't consider it a flaw, per se.

 

[fuckmeat]

I've questioned that too... what is a 'soft' limit?

I think it's a bit of both. Soft limits to me are often things you don't have the knowledge and experience to make a judgement call on. They're things you don't think that you could tolerate or enjoy, but not such hard limits that pushing them would damage you psychologically or be a relationship dealbreaker. If you're quite new to kink, soft limits are things that you think would be too much for you right now, but that you could see yourself maybe exploring a little in the future when you have more experience or more trust in a PYL's knowledge and competence. It could also be something that you have no interest in yourself, but could be persuaded into if a partner really had a thing for it.

Well that's what it means to me anyway.

 

[Allonsy]

Being submissive, or even a slave, doesn't mean living a life that's going to make you miserable. Slaves have limits too and may establish contracts -- the difference being, generally, that they give up the right of refusal/choice *within the bounds of the agreement between Master and slave*. If part of the ground rules is no playtime with other people, then it's part of the ground rules no matter what your status is.

I would say that if you have any doubts about an open relationship, any anxiety about being left by your Master, then don't do it. Entering a poly relationship when someone is not absolutely sure they're comfortable with it is the main reason so many poly relationships fail. There's already so much pressure from our culture that poly is 'bad' that internal doubts are easily magnified.

I would suggest establishing your D/s or slave relationship first and see how that goes, before throwing everything in the pot all at once.

 

[FungiUg]

Being submissive, or even a slave, doesn't mean living a life that's going to make you miserable.

In general, people have written some really cool stuff in this thread. And that's a quote I can agree with wholeheartedly.

I guess I would reiterate that relationships, whatever form they may take, are about finding what works for you. Don't try and live someone else's relationship, because that will make you miserable.

 

[FungiUg]

Really? I've only ever seen T/b used as "person doing the spanking" and "person being spanked" etc. (demo dolly, what have you)

I guess I'm confused. I think that's almost the most common way I have seen "top" and "bottom" being used too, as to distinguish between (say) a dominant and a submissive. So for example, if a dominant tells his submissive to spank him, then the dominant may be the bottom.

Is there a different definition? If so, would love to hear it. Not that I attach a great deal of meaning to labels, but it can be handy to get a better idea of what people actually mean when they use them.

Personally, I love spanking a good bottom.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I guess it depends on the culture you started from.

 

[satindesire]

I think it's a bit of both. Soft limits to me are often things you don't have the knowledge and experience to make a judgement call on. They're things you don't think that you could tolerate or enjoy, but not such hard limits that pushing them would damage you psychologically or be a relationship dealbreaker. If you're quite new to kink, soft limits are things that you think would be too much for you right now, but that you could see yourself maybe exploring a little in the future when you have more experience or more trust in a PYL's knowledge and competence. It could also be something that you have no interest in yourself, but could be persuaded into if a partner really had a thing for it.

Well that's what it means to me anyway.

That definition is PERFECT.

I guess I'm confused. I think that's almost the most common way I have seen "top" and "bottom" being used too, as to distinguish between (say) a dominant and a submissive. So for example, if a dominant tells his submissive to spank him, then the dominant may be the bottom.

Is there a different definition? If so, would love to hear it. Not that I attach a great deal of meaning to labels, but it can be handy to get a better idea of what people actually mean when they use them.

Personally, I love spanking a good bottom.

Well, from what I've seen in person, and on this forum and other BDSM friendly forums, the terms "Top and Bottom" are more commonly used when people want to play kinky games and/or do a bit of little BDSM activities JUST in the bedroom, and have no power exchange or kink anywhere else in their lives.

I guess it depends on the culture you started from.

Yeah, that's totally true.

 

[Homburg]

I guess it depends on the culture you started from.

Aside from a few queer friends, I have no intersect with that side of the scene. Yet I suspect my attitude towards those labels is more similar than it is different.

 

[intothewoods]

In my local group, it seems like T and b are used more like PYL and pyl. Rather than explain, well, I'm a sadist, sometimes daddy or I'm a sadist not a dominant, or I'm a master with some but blah blah with others, etc. etc., folks will sometimes use T and b instead.

 

[Homburg]

In my local group, it seems like T and b are used more like PYL and pyl. Rather than explain, well, I'm a sadist, sometimes daddy or I'm a sadist not a dominant, or I'm a master with some but blah blah with others, etc. etc., folks will sometimes use T and b instead.

I can't say that I've heard overmuch label usage in this area period. I've heard a coupla Mdoms call themselves dominant, but I think it was a nervous/defensive response to the Fdoms in the group. And, wow, that amused me, because those ladies are laid back and friendly, yet some of these guys act like they're being challenged.

There was a group in Richmond that used different coloured nametags based on the label you chose. That kind of boggled me. I mean, I get it on one level, but I am not a colour on a nametag, and assuming I am not looking, my orientation on the big BDSM spectrum is absolutely meaningless. As a group they lean more towards protocol, so *shrug*.

 

[intothewoods]

You hear the ID stuff mostly when folks are introducing themselves to new people. Otherwise it doesn't really come up.

 

[Homburg]

You hear the ID stuff mostly when folks are introducing themselves to new people. Otherwise it doesn't really come up.

Goes to show that we talk about these labels more than we actually use them