The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[BLoved]

Not so much, this thread is getting about ten views per post. And since there has been some thirty people that have participated here, not even one third of them have been checking in with any regularity.

I don't think you're reaching many lurkers.

~smile~

Your math only works out if you assume ten posters check in every time there is a new post.

It would appear there is a new page of posts every time I check in, and most of those posts are off-topic.

 

[minx1]

Love is not abusive.

Unless its consensual. Love is not homogeneous....its down to the individuals to agree how that love manifests itself and if it works for them, who says its not love?

 

[Stella_Omega]

~smile~

Your math only works out if you assume ten posters check in every time there is a new post.

It would appear there is a new page of posts every time I check in, and most of those posts are off-topic.

~smile~

Each one of those posts counts as a view as well And who's to say what the topic is? I bet a lot of people are checking in to see who-all is laughing at you.

(damn this elaborate workaround for the edit function!)

 

[BLoved]

I bet a lot of people are checking in to see who-all is laughing at you.

If it helps you to sleep better at night ...

~smile~

 

[Cattypuss]

Well the only reason *I* check in is to see who is laughing at you, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Doodles, there are many people who care for her and want to help. She talks with them nearly every day.

You flatter yourself if you think you were so convincing as to be included amongst them.

BUT you and your "Love" is the only thing that will fix her problems in the end, right?

Let her think they want to "help". You're giving her just enough room on your leash to think she isn't in a controlling, manipulative, and abusive relationship.

Like I said, you're very clever.

 

[BLoved]

BUT you and your "Love" is the only thing that will fix her problems in the end, right?

Let her think they want to "help". You're giving her just enough room on your leash to think she isn't in a controlling, manipulative, and abusive relationship.

Like I said, you're very clever.

Roberts "Love" for me is NOT the only thing that will fix my problems.
since you have no idea who i even talk to means that you have no idea how many people are accually helping me in the end.

An Aunt whom i lived with for over 3 years is helping, my grandmother who is like my best friend, a few foster parents that i know have been willing to help because they know of the situation.

Robert is NOT controlling nor is he manipulative and abusive. I AM NOT IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP!

I have had enough of people trying to say that Robert is not a nice man.

The other day you said that i was a crazy lady and Robert should be careful.
Who are you to say that i am crazy or not.
You got me when i was in a bad mood. and i pre warned you.

First people were all worried about poor little me, and now that i am apparently crazy your worried for Robert.

How about you STOP worrying and mind ur own business.

I am fine, happy, safe, and loved. Thats more than i could EVER ask for.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Roberts "Love" for me is NOT the only thing that will fix my problems.
since you have no idea who i even talk to means that you have no idea how many people are accually helping me in the end.

An Aunt whom i lived with for over 3 years is helping, my grandmother who is like my best friend, a few foster parents that i know have been willing to help because they know of the situation.

Robert is NOT controlling nor is he manipulative and abusive. I AM NOT IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP!

I have had enough of people trying to say that Robert is not a nice man.

The other day you said that i was a crazy lady and Robert should be careful.
Who are you to say that i am crazy or not.
You got me when i was in a bad mood. and i pre warned you.

First people were all worried about poor little me, and now that i am apparently crazy your worried for Robert.

How about you STOP worrying and mind ur own business.

I am fine, happy, safe, and loved. Thats more than i could EVER ask for.

It's interesting he never denied any of it.

In fact:

You are nothing more than a manipulative, controlling, possessive, and abusive Dom.

Indeed.

Sounds like he agrees with me.

Hopefully he won't hurt you too bad.

 

[BLoved]

BUT you and your "Love" is the only thing that will fix her problems in the end, right?

Let her think they want to "help". You're giving her just enough room on your leash to think she isn't in a controlling, manipulative, and abusive relationship.

Like I said, you're very clever.

Doodles, it is pretty obvious the only person trying to be "controlling, manipulative, and abusive" is you.

 

[sb2009]

If you are holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you have the belief that casual bdsm results in abuse, all you will encounter are abuses subs. Anyone else won't even be on your radar.

 

[BLoved]

It's interesting he never denied any of it.

In fact:





Sounds like he agrees with me.

Misquoting me isn't going to help your credibility.

 

[Etoile]

Spread the word folks...CollarMe is the new eHarmony!

 

[BLoved]

If you are holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you have the belief that casual bdsm results in abuse, all you will encounter are abuses subs. Anyone else won't even be on your radar.

30,000 years of evolution hard-wiring intimate behaviour with intimate emotional bonding and no one can explain either:

A) why they believe the above just ain't so,

or

B) why they believe ignoring this hard-wiring doesn't result in dysfunctional attitudes towards love and intimacy.

Anecdotal claims fail because the individuals cannot rule out denial.

While my initial exposure to the dysfunctional nature of casual 'bdsm' was the result of abused submissives talking to me about their experiences, it wasn't until I considered the evolution of human intimacy that an explanation for so many abused women presented itself.

 

[eastern sun]

I AM NOT IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP!

Me neither.

It can be very distressing when somebody keeps telling me that I am.

 

[eastern sun]

30,000 years of evolution hard-wiring intimate behaviour with intimate emotional bonding and no one can explain either:

A) why they believe the above just ain't so,

or

B) why they believe ignoring this hard-wiring doesn't result in dysfunctional attitudes towards love and intimacy.

Anecdotal claims fail because the individuals cannot rule out denial.

While my initial exposure to the dysfunctional nature of casual 'bdsm' was the result of abused submissives talking to me about their experiences, it wasn't until I considered the evolution of human intimacy that an explanation for so many abused women presented itself.

I've always thought the development of emotional bonding had more to do with the maternal instincts in mammals than our sexual instincts.

Too many instances of real behavior across all cultures contradict the True Love paradigm for it to be hard-wired in the species.

I've always thought that romantic love and monogamy were cultural developments in response to the actual behavior that most humans exhibit.

 

[Etoile]

BLoved, something occurred to me...do you apply your theories to same-sex couples, or only heterosexual couples? I haven't seen this discussed yet. Also, what are your thoughts on celibate people, whether it is due to religious, physical, or asexual reasons? (I'm speaking of those who are celibate by choice...not being able to get laid doesn't count!)

 

[CutieMouse]

I consolidated a few things BL may have missed, since he stated a few pages back that he'd caught up all on all the posts he felt weren't off topic or whatever.

I'm still waiting for a direct response to this post, since BL dragged Evolutionary Biology into the discussion to defend his position...

See this bit is fascinating to me.

The Man has done extensive study of Evolutionary Biology and how it relates to human interaction, emotions, sexuality, etc. How do bonds form? What is the hormonal and bio-chemical reaction when humans interact? We discuss it rather often as it's an interesting subject

It is true that we are designed to feel something when sharing intimate moments with another human being. It's biochemical and hormonally hard wired into our consciousness. The mere act of sharing conversation raises our Oxytocin levels (the same hormone responsible for triggering orgasm and also causing nursing mothers to release milk - guaranteeing the continuation of the human race). Touch does the same thing (even professional massages), as does a steady gaze during conversation; oxytocin is essential to one's ability to biochemically develop trust. Fascinating, eh? Oxytocin is the hormone that ties all of humanity together and helps us maintain some degree of civility as a culture (we won't get into the whole war thing ).

So yes, Evolutionary Biology has programmed us to feel a connection - often an emotional one. A connection programmed into our chemistry that has nothing to do with "Love" which is a construct created thousands of years after modern man came into being. It is chemicals and synapses and ancient biological response - nothing more. People apply the word "Love to that biological response, because as humans we desire to label and catalogue things.

BL uses this biological response to bolster his argument about love and abuse; The Man uses it to explain what's going on with us chemically as we get to know one another better. As he put it "Sweetie you aren't thinking with your frontal lobe; you're thinking with your Primal Brain... exactly as you are designed."

Again with the sweeping statements...

All cultures link intimate behaviour with intimate emotional bonding.

Only dysfunctional cultures have a surplus of single mothers.

No acknowledgment to this little non-dysfunctional little bit...

Awesome.

Now I'm extra dysfunctional because I divorced my husband of 12 years.
You know, the one that asked me to marry him on our second date, because he just KNEW I was his True Love. The one I married 6 months after meeting. When I was 20.

The thing neither of us knew was that he had an issue with falling in love. Repeatedly. He did it 2-3 times a year [with other women].

I'll be sure to inform our therapist (we saw her individually and as a couple for about a year... he fell in love with her at one point too) that she was wrong to support our decision to divorce as being emotionally and psychologically healthy, offering our children a much better opportunity to witness healthier relationship dynamics than our marriage offered them.

Other than this sharp little quip publicly disparaging my ex husband, father of my children. I mean hey - if you make one swing and it turns out to be incorrect (how embarrassing!), why not take another wild one?

Only dysfunctional societies produce men who are emotionally incapable of raising their children.

Well what do you know ...

Thanks to all the posts attempting to disrupt the discussion, I've caught up.

Yeah... except that you ignored my post about the biochemistry of Evolutionary Biology, and blew off my example of a very emotionally healthy instance of single motherhood.

Followed by this post, which you have also ignored as it doesn't jive with your comments about emotionally incapable fathers...

Dude. It might be worthwhile taking a bit of time getting to know one's audience before making such wide sweeping statements.

Due to discussions had while continuing therapy after my decision to leave the marriage, we approached custody from a practical standpoint rather than treat the children as pawns like so many divorcing couples do.

As the one with the college degree, better work schedule (HS Physics & Chemistry teacher), and desire to eventually remarry (he did so last summer - lovely woman; the children adore her)... he's their primary parent; I have them every other weekend. I am incredibly proud of how much he grew up and tuned in once I removed myself from the marriage, and while he doesn't do things the way I would, the children all have a great relationship with their father as well as a loving adult network consisting of their stepmother, myself, and several close family friends.



What was it you were assuming about my ex-husband being "emotionally incapable of raising" his children, again?

BTW, I do believe the gentlemanly move here would be to acknowledge that sweeping generalizations are not necessarily the most effective way of supporting one's position, and publicly apologize for lumping myself into the "single mothers are a symptom of a dysfunctional society" category, as well as your insulting (again - broad sweeping) comments lumping my ex-husband into the "emotionally incapable of raising their children" category.

30,000 years of evolution hard-wiring intimate behaviour with intimate emotional bonding and no one can explain either:

A) why they believe the above just ain't so,

or

B) why they believe ignoring this hard-wiring doesn't result in dysfunctional attitudes towards love and intimacy.

Anecdotal claims fail because the individuals cannot rule out denial.

While my initial exposure to the dysfunctional nature of casual 'bdsm' was the result of abused submissives talking to me about their experiences, it wasn't until I considered the evolution of human intimacy that an explanation for so many abused women presented itself.

Again - you completely ignored my post about the biochemical realities of human bonding. I presume because it didn't support your 1 man + 1 woman for life = True Love formula.

You are also now ignoring anecdotal information in favor of broad sweeping general statements, even though the foundation of your own argument is based on anecdotal information - your personal experiences at places like CollarMe, and the one public dungeon event you attended. Yet for some reason my story of a healthy decision to divorce, a father who is heavily involved in his childrens lives, and a young but deepening relationship are somehow invalid? Interesting.

 

[00Syd]

Well the only reason *I* check in is to see who is laughing at you, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Ditto.

 

[00Syd]

BLoved, something occurred to me...do you apply your theories to same-sex couples, or only heterosexual couples? I haven't seen this discussed yet. Also, what are your thoughts on celibate people, whether it is due to religious, physical, or asexual reasons? (I'm speaking of those who are celibate by choice...not being able to get laid doesn't count!)

I was also wondering what his thoughts are on male submissives, since he seems to only be talking about female submissives when he discusses how they are all poor, abused, victims. So, what about male submissives?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Roberts "Love" for me is NOT the only thing that will fix my problems.
since you have no idea who i even talk to means that you have no idea how many people are accually helping me in the end.

An Aunt whom i lived with for over 3 years is helping, my grandmother who is like my best friend, a few foster parents that i know have been willing to help because they know of the situation.

Glad to hear it.

Robert is NOT controlling nor is he manipulative and abusive. I AM NOT IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP!

He's been controlling, manipulative and abusive here in these discussions. Sure, it's only verbally, but it's very obvious.

I have had enough of people trying to say that Robert is not a nice man.

The other day you said that i was a crazy lady and Robert should be careful.
Who are you to say that i am crazy or not.
You got me when i was in a bad mood. and i pre warned you.

First people were all worried about poor little me, and now that i am apparently crazy your worried for Robert.

How about you STOP worrying and mind ur own business.

How about you drag your boyfrind out of the bar then,because he's shooting off his mouth and making you both look bad.

I am fine, happy, safe, and loved. Thats more than i could EVER ask for.

Actually, that's the LEAST you could ask for.

 

[Netzach]

30,000 years of evolution hard-wiring intimate behaviour with intimate emotional bonding and no one can explain either:

A) why they believe the above just ain't so,

Because it just ain't what you think it is.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Because it just ain't what you think it is.

And because nobody feels the need to sum up their four-year university degrees in order to enlighten Bloved's misunderstandings. It's easy to falsify in a soundbite, the truth takes more effort.

"A little learning is a dangerous thing."

 

[eastern sun]

“Why stealest thou along so furtively in the twilight, Zarathustra? And what hidest thou so carefully under thy mantle?

Is it a treasure that hath been given thee? Or a child that hath been born thee? Or goest thou thyself on a thief’s errand, thou friend of the evil?”—

Verily, my brother, said Zarathustra, it is a treasure that hath been given me: it is a little truth which I carry.

But it is naughty, like a young child; and if I hold not its mouth, it screameth too loudly.

As I went on my way alone to–day, at the hour when the sun declineth, there met me an old woman, and she spake thus unto my soul:

“Much hath Zarathustra spoken also to us women, but never spake he unto us concerning woman.”

And I answered her: “Concerning woman, one should only talk unto men.”

“Talk also unto me of woman,” said she; “I am old enough to forget it presently.”

And I obliged the old woman and spake thus unto her:

Everything in woman is a riddle, and everything in woman hath one solution —it is called pregnancy.

Man is for woman a means: the purpose is always the child. But what is woman for man?

Two different things wanteth the true man: danger and diversion. Therefore wanteth he woman, as the most dangerous plaything.

Man shall be trained for war, and woman for the recreation of the warrior: all else is folly.

Too sweet fruits—these the warrior liketh not. Therefore liketh he woman;—bitter is even the sweetest woman.

Better than man doth woman understand children, but man is more childish than woman.

In the true man there is a child hidden: it wanteth to play. Up then, ye women, and discover the child in man!

A plaything let woman be, pure and fine like the precious stone, illumined with the virtues of a world not yet come.

Let the beam of a star shine in your love! Let your hope say: “May I bear the Superman!”

In your love let there be valour! With your love shall ye assail him who inspireth you with fear!

In your love be your honour! Little doth woman understand otherwise about honour. But let this be your honour: always to love more than ye are loved, and never be the second.

Let man fear woman when she loveth: then maketh she every sacrifice, and everything else she regardeth as worthless.

Let man fear woman when she hateth: for man in his innermost soul is merely evil; woman, however, is mean.

Whom hateth woman most?—Thus spake the iron to the loadstone: “I hate thee most, because thou attractest, but art too weak to draw unto thee.”

The happiness of man is, “I will.” The happiness of woman is, “He will.”

“Lo! now hath the world become perfect!”—thus thinketh every woman when she obeyeth with all her love.

Obey, must the woman, and find a depth for her surface. Surface, is woman’s soul, a mobile, stormy film on shallow water.

Man’s soul, however, is deep, its current gusheth in subterranean caverns: woman surmiseth its force, but comprehendeth it not.—

Then answered me the old woman: “Many fine things hath Zarathustra said, especially for those who are young enough for them.

Strange! Zarathustra knoweth little about woman, and yet he is right about them! Doth this happen, because with women nothing is impossible?

And now accept a little truth by way of thanks! I am old enough for it!

Swaddle it up and hold its mouth: otherwise it will scream too loudly, the little truth.”

“Give me, woman, thy little truth!” said I. And thus spake the old woman:

“Thou goest to women? Do not forget thy whip!”—

Thus spake Zarathustra.



Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[TypicalDeviant]

Ditto.

Thirded.

/With a healthy dose of smart-assery as well.

 

[Etoile]

I was also wondering what his thoughts are on male submissives, since he seems to only be talking about female submissives when he discusses how they are all poor, abused, victims. So, what about male submissives?

I'd like to hear his thoughts on that as well.