Oh (no) Canada...

[TE999]

So, a reason to deny universal access is because some people won't use it?

Not at all...I'm simply advancing the premise that adopting another government assistance program won't go very far to ameliorate the plight of those who don't currently have access to 'Universal Care' since their very lifestyles place them routinely in need of medical assistance and continually seeing to these needs will bankrupt the system even faster.

It's predicated on the same flawed premise that has made other welfare and assistance programs abject failures...instead of requiring a change in lifestyles, these programs aid, abet and make excuses for the very activities that keep people on the dole.

 

[Pure]

usual blather

mab's excellent posting was factual:

ami replied: The number of Canadian's coming to America for medical care is not 'rare', Mab, it is quite common and here is a link that explains why:


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/op...-46847927.html

the article contains no figures and thus doesn't indicate anything contrary to Mab's estimate; in particular, it has no figures about alleged frequent visits to the US.

it is a pure thought experiment and no actual persons are quoted.

that said, the rich have always been free to shop the world finest and pay accordingly, be it US, Switzerland, Germany, wherever.

 

[amicus]

that said, the rich have always been free to shop the world finest and pay accordingly, be it US, Switzerland, Germany, wherever.

~~~

Gotta give Pure a grade for consistency; always the Marxist Class Warfare conflict of rich versus poor.

Perhaps you would care to offer a defense for the use of force to take from some and give to others?

We are all waiting with bated breath...(not)

Amicus

 

[patrick1]

Amicus, long time no see, one has to take holidays from opinion forums I find or go crazy.

(1) I have to agree that this question, taking from some to give to others, is a core question here. I don't really understand your use of the word 'force', perhaps 'compulsion' would be a better word.

The value issue relates back to your earlier post: 'In a strict definition of the term, no 'right' can exist that requires a sacrifice by another.'

Straightforwardly, I don't agree with you here, and see this as the fundamental issue. I live in a society where some have to give up some liberty in order that others have more. I like it that way. You don't.

(2) I do think that your reply to Pure is quite an evasion. Pure refers to evidence; you respond without reference to evidence. Do you have evidence to back up your assertion about traffic in the other direction?

 

[jodylee]

I'm Canadian; our health care is not perfect, but it's better than losing your house because you had to go to the hospital.

I lived in Niagara for 17 years, and with the proximity to Buffalo, there were lots of Canadians that headed there for MRI's and such, and the only reason was because they didn't want to wait in line, and had the money to pay for it. Conversely, whilst visiting me for my dad's funeral in the summertime, my fiance had to go to the emergency walk-in, and although wasn't impressed with the state of the building, was thoroughly happy with the level of care he got (and paid for out of pocket, and wasn't reimbursed by his insurance company, surprise surprise..). It cost $65 to see the doctor, and $240 to use the facility, including an EKG, hospital administered medicine and a few other routine tests.

It was enlightening to read the history of the bean counters and their influence on Canadian helath care, thank you for that!

The Premier of NF is just another rich person who could afford to get ahead of the lines. Where I lived in NIagara, like many areas, there was a shortage of doctors - I had to apply to the practice to see if I "fit in" (and thankfully did) to their patient profile. I didn't have the luxury of telling my ob/gyn when I wanted to have a c-section for my baby either. Most people have private insurance that they or their workplace pays for as well, as provincial health care doesn't cover everything..vision, prescription, dental, and many procedures that occur in a doctor's office and hospital are not covered. And that's only if they can afford it. Oh, and if you're in Ontario, your family pays a health care premium too (that after Premier Dalton McGuinty said "no new taxes") every year. And if you really don't think we pay for our health care, take a look at our income tax structure, and how municipalities (at least in Ontario, I'm not sure in regards to how it is managed in other provinces) are responsible for making ends meet in hospitals (and they have been closing because of it).

It's sad that providing health care is a political issue, and that the people and organisations battling against affordable health care don't care enough for their neighbour to have to weigh losing their house, car and/or belongings over a medical procedure. Call me a socialist if you will, but that's how I feel.

 

[amicus]

Amicus, long time no see, one has to take holidays from opinion forums I find or go crazy.

(1) I have to agree that this question, taking from some to give to others, is a core question here. I don't really understand your use of the word 'force', perhaps 'compulsion' would be a better word.

The value issue relates back to your earlier post: 'In a strict definition of the term, no 'right' can exist that requires a sacrifice by another.'

Straightforwardly, I don't agree with you here, and see this as the fundamental issue. I live in a society where some have to give up some liberty in order that others have more. I like it that way. You don't.

(2) I do think that your reply to Pure is quite an evasion. Pure refers to evidence; you respond without reference to evidence. Do you have evidence to back up your assertion about traffic in the other direction?

~~~

Hello patrick1, been a long time, I too took a brief sojourn from the forum.

Without being obstinate, your liking or disliking sacrificing your rights for others has no bearing on the discussion.

I suspect that on a fundamental level we have a disagreement concerning the actual meaning of words and concepts. I hold that words and concepts are concrete abstractions from reality and as such, are real and definable in absolute terms.

'Rights' is one such word and concept and I refer you to Ayn Rand's Virtue of Selfishness from which I quote:

Individual Rights

A “right” is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man’s freedom of action in a social context. There is only one fundamental right (all the others are its consequences or corollaries): a man’s right to his own life. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action; the right to life means the right to engage in self-sustaining and self-generated action—which means: the freedom to take all the actions required by the nature of a rational being for the support, the furtherance, the fulfillment and the enjoyment of his own life. (Such is the meaning of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.)

The concept of a “right” pertains only to action—specifically, to freedom of action. It means freedom from physical compulsion, coercion or interference by other men.

Thus, for every individual, a right is the moral sanction of a positive—of his freedom to act on his own judgment, for his own goals, by his own voluntary, uncoerced choice. As to his neighbors, his rights impose no obligations on them except of a negative kind: to abstain from violating his rights.

The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.

Bear in mind that the right to property is a right to action, like all the others: it is not the right to an object, but to the action and the consequences of producing or earning that object. It is not a guarantee that a man will earn any property, but only a guarantee that he will own it if he earns it. It is the right to gain, to keep, to use and to dispose of material values.

***

To be specific; you have no 'right' to demand that I pay for your healthcare; nor do you have the 'right' to demand that care from your government or anyone else. You use the word 'compulsion' as opposed to 'force', I notice that Rand uses 'compulsion' in her second paragraph. I prefer the word force for the more immediate impact it carries.

~~~

Key word search: canadians seeking medical care in US

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/17/1/225.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2231416/

http://minnesotaindependent.com/366...-to-minnesota-for-health-care-mall-of-america

As the US shares a border with Canada and many cross each way daily, there is a dirth of precise numbers concerning those who seek or purchase medical treatment in the US from Canada.

I may search more at a later time and as I said in the original post, this is a petty issue, but still, the issue does exist, it is only the degree or extent to which it does that is pertinent.

There are some facts about the long waiting periods and the scarcity of Primary Care Physicians in both Canada and Britain which make the idea of seeking instant care elsewhere a viable issue.

Nice to have you about again.

Amicus

 

[amicus]

Hello Jodylee and welcome...

"...It's sad that providing health care is a political issue, and that the people and organisations battling against affordable health care don't care enough for their neighbour to have to weigh losing their house, car and/or belongings over a medical procedure. Call me a socialist if you will, but that's how I feel.

~~~

It is not about name calling, that is seldom productive; it is about human rights and just what role government is authorized to take in the life of a citizen.

I can feel the sincerity in your Post as I do in many and that you cannot begin to understand why anyone would oppose the government providing affordable health care to all.

As the entire Republican contingent in the US Congress has voted in opposition to an Universal medical plan, perhaps you will realize that I do not represent just myself but the entire conservative political philosophy in America when I speak.

I am hoping that stating that will give you pause to consider just why so many are opposed.

One of the reasons there is a scarcity of Medical Doctors in both Canada and Britain, is because after ten years of medical school and Residency, few are willing to turn their future earnings over to a government committee.

Would you invest all that time and money to then be told where you will work, what you can perform and treat and the compensation you would receive by a government official?

I can understand European acceptance of Socialism following the occupation by Germany and then by the Russians following the second world war. Britain should be the exception but is not because of the loss of Empire and world status emasculated the Brits to the point of accepting the inevitability of democratic socialism as a way of life.

I suppose Canada simply followed suit because it was the politically correct thing to do.

There are no guarantees in life and many tragedies beyond our control. I weep for children born with infirmities, blindness, debilitating symptoms, and I share your concern for those who suffer a catastrophic illness that costs them everything they have worked for.

On the other hand, I am also fully aware of the total failure of societies that have given over their free choice for a more comfortable life and found the loss of freedom meant slavery in a way they never foresaw.

My youngest daughter just turned 26 and is not happy about another birthday. I spoke with her for over an hour tonight as she is in Washington, D.C., and they are expecting blizzard conditions tomorrow.

She has huge medical bills, even with insurance from the removal of an ovarian cyst about a year ago and feels as you do, that there ought to be affordable healthcare available to all.

It is not pleasant for me to disagree with her and present my views as it is not easy with you or anyone else.

I regret that so few have been educated to appreciate the value of human individual choice and freedom. It seems everyone on this forum detests the free market system and yearns for the comfort promised by a controlled society where wants and needs are satisfied by government.

One would think, with the still fresh example of Nazi Germany, and their National Socialist government and the Soviet Union with their Communist form of government, one would think that no one would ever want to repeat the errors made.

That seems not to be the case or perhaps those who want a strong government don't make the connection between government control and the loss of human freedom.

This debate is not a new thing for me personally; I did 'talk radio' as a moderator for over 20 years through the 70's and 80's and even then there were few who appreciated the cost paid for freedom in this country and elsewhere.

I fear you and others will have to learn that lesson by experience as even being aware of history does not protect us from the absolute evils of a slave society.

I hope I live long enough to see my daughter move into her 30's and begin to realize and understand why I cherish human freedom as I do.

Amicus

 

[stephen55]

Well, who's fault is that......?

In America, there is no Constitutional 'Right' to medical care.

Amicus, one day for the hell of it, I read the US Constitution and the various amendments. I find it to be a well worded document that outlines the way the framers thought a country should be run. It was inevitable that as time went on, new ideas had to be introduced, thus the amendments. And yes, I don't remember any words to the effect that "American citizens have the right to health care".

That said, in Canada, before a Saskatchewan politician by the name of Tommy Douglas came along, Canadians didn't have the right to medical care either. He made it his mission to change that and he did. Parliament enacted legislation and presto; we have that right. Well, not exactly. It took a while, a lot of adjustment and the soothing of ruffled feathers but it happened. As far as I can tell, it's a work in progress. (Pun intended.)

Is there anything stopping Americans from adding another amendment to your Constitution? That is, beyond the morass of varied opinion, that also existed in Canada as Tommy was pounding the pavement, advocating for his ideal?

Because, in my non-legal scholar opinion, the USA is not a true democracy but rather a constitutional republic, democracy-lite (something about an Electoral College being the real outfit that decides who runs the show, or failing that, the Supreme Court, with Dubya being one result, can anyone say "hanging chad"), reforming anything substantial is like herding cats. Not that such herding is impossible with a little resolve.

Perhaps the reason Canada has decent health care for all of us canucks is that we are a parliamentary democracy. Bills in the House of Parliament or the Provincial Legislatures deal with one issue only. No pork barrel fine print about bridges to nowhere. All in favour say "aye".

If Tommy Douglas had been a politician from Kansas, you still wouldn't have the right to medical care. If Ted Kennedy had been from Alberta, he would have died a much happier man.

 

[stephen55]

Where do you get this drivel............???

Hello Jodylee and welcome...


~~~

One of the reasons there is a scarcity of Medical Doctors in both Canada and Britain, is because after ten years of medical school and Residency, few are willing to turn their future earnings over to a government committee.

Would you invest all that time and money to then be told where you will work, what you can perform and treat and the compensation you would receive by a government official?

Amicus

Wrong, plain and simply wrong.............

I live in Canada, not The Peoples Republic of Amicus, you moron. Canada is a Parliamentary democracy, not a tyrannical dictatorship where I live and do what I'm told to do by a "government committee", and you know it, you hypocritical buffoon.

Like the vast majority of docs in Canada, I was in private practice, set up shop where I chose, did what I wanted, worked the hours I set, took my holidays at my whim, had the right to treat anything that came my way, was paid fee for service etc., etc....

Where do you get this stuff, "Politukul Info R Us"?

Amicus, in a different thread, I said that your problem is that you don't know what science is, much less what it does or how it works. I was wrong and I admit it. How arrogant of me. I humbly ask your forgiveness.

What's really wrong with you is that you have only two neurons, and the only thing holding them together is a spirochete. Before you look it up, no, it's not something to be proud of.

 

[oggbashan]

If you can afford to pay for your health care you have choice.

If you can't afford to pay for your health care you can still get treatment in the UK and many other countries, even for long-standing pre-existing conditions. If you can afford to pay for some, you have choice. The UK government is trying to make choice possible even within our National Health Service.

If you, or your employers, can't afford health care and you live in the US...

You have no choice at all.

Og

 

[CharleyH]

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/AcuteCoronarySyndrome/18279

As I spent fifteen months at an USA Airbase in Goose Bay, Labrador, and have some small experience in that part of the world....well, it's slim, but still, I had to chuckle at the News of the Canadian Leader of Newfoundland/Labrador, equivalent to a Governor of a State in the US, who is currently in a US Hospital, somewhere, for an undisclosed heart problem for surgery.

And yes, I lifted the "Oh Canada" headline, "Oh, (no) Canada", from the article, wishing I had thought of it...

On the News, Canadian spokepersons (ahem, male & Female) are scurrying to cover the faux pas of why the vaunted Canadian Health care system was snubbed for treatment in the nasty ole USA.

This is just too sweet to let pass...c'mon, Canadian's, I know you are out there, let's hear it!



(who says I don't have a sense of humor?)

Amicus

When my dad was stationed in Nova Scotia and at 1 and 1/2 I got tonsillitis and a severe case of anemia and no doctor would remove them because I was too young, my Ontario registered nurse mother flew me back to Ontario to get them removed. When my mother wanted my brother circumcised, she had to fly him back to Ontario to get a circumcision done because they refused to do it in that part of the land. Canada is a large country and not all places have specialists who can deal with situations. It doesn't surprise me that a premier from NS goes to the US for treatment because I bet NY is closer than Toronto.

The great thing about the Canadian healthcare system is that no matter if you need a circumcision, tonsil removal or heart transplant, you can get one ... even if you are poor.

 

[stephen55]

Can't help but agree with this one..............

AquaStarryNight
Really Experienced

Aggressive One
Literotica Guru

Regardless of the number of poignant anecdotes supplied concerning the state of healthcare in America, I remind you that the cornerstone of a free society is that the individual is responsible for his own life and the consequences thereof.

It is through that freedom and the corresponding responsibility that individuals gain a sense of self esteem and self value.


Amicus

I must say, there's nothing like a diagnosis of leukemia in an unemployed and thus medically uninsured American to give said American a sense of self-esteem and a sense of self value.

As for...

When you turn to the collective to assume the responsibility for your own individual life concerns, you sacrifice that innate and unalienable right to human freedom and you sacrifice it for a handful of aspirins and a bandaid

I'm not a medical oncologist so you'll just have to trust me on this, but in Canada, someone diagnosed with leukemia doesn't get a handful of aspirins and a band-aid. As a family doc, I always made sure they got jello and a used surgical glove, blown up into a silly balloon with a smiley face added with a felt pen. You have no idea what simple measures like that would do for their self-esteem and self value. Why, after they all died from their untreated leukemia, most of them remembered me in their will.

........moron.....

 

[bwallard]

Doctors in Canada do very well. They have big houses and nice cars, retire early if they want to, work short weeks. They make out big time. Way better than civil servants.

The kind of individual freedom you're talking about is nice work if you can get it and manage to slip past all the shysters and ruffians until you die.

Individual freedom! What a crock. What individual freedom does an employee of an individually free asshole have?

Oh wait. I know. He or she can quit her or his job. That's how the market works!

Goddamn Romantics! You drive me crazy. Just hand it all over to Nature and the Jungle becomes a Park.

Oooh yeah!

So fucked up!

 

[amicus]

A smidgeon of serious contemplation here, if I may...

The issue of national health care, single payer, government run, however you wish to refer to it...seems to involve a moral component that brings out strong emotions for those who support the concept.

What I suspect normally civil people, revert to juvenile name calling and personal attacks for those who advocate a free market system over a government mandated one.

Not just this issue, advocates for gay marriage, homosexual rights, gay and lesbian adoption and parenting, civil rights, gender equality, all left of center issues and all defended very emotionally by those who are vested or supportive.

Any mention of a rational, objective moral system based on human values also brings forth a quick renunciation of any such exploration and affirmation that there is no absolute human moral criteria and even one pronouncing there is no absolute science.

Over the past sixty odd years as the power of organized religion to guide or even dictate morality has weakened and is non existent among the more educated, literate liberal community, I am curious as to what has replaced religous morality in the uber left, or even the near left that denies divine wisdom as it concerns human morals and ethics.

I sense frightened little personalities unsure of their moral foundations striking out at any who would challenge the advocated human actions listed above. I sense an anger at any who might point out that the liberal left has sold out all vestiges of human honor and dignity to a grey world of adjustable morals concerning some very important decisions concerning lifestyles and choices.

I also sense it comes to the forefront now following the Democrat sweep of Congress and the White House and the early signs of collapse of what was expected to be a true change in basic American political direction.

An anger and a sadness as realization sets in that all the hoped for dreams of the liberal community seem to be falling by the wayside with the knowledge that such an opportunity may not occur again in this generation.

The 'baby boomers' who came of age during the 60's and are now the 'senior boomers' flooding onto the social security roles realize their life long dream of peace love and drugs, baby, is coming to a tragic end.

That is my attempt to understand the expressed rage and outrage at anyone who suggests that this entire liberal dream of equality, was and is a phony dream from the beginning and that there is no salvation or forgiveness for a wasted lifetime.

It is sad and the bitterness apparent is spilling over to the next generation who hold even less hope than those who gave them life and the sense of life that has abandoned them.

There are real and true and lasting human values, if only you seek them out, understand them and focus on how to experience them for your own benefit.

There are always those out there willing to offer and hand of understanding, but you to have to make an effort.

Amicus

 

[stephen55]

There are always those out there willing to offer and hand of understanding, but you to have to make an effort.

Unbelievable...unfucking believable....

 

[oggbashan]

One of my sons-in-law is in Romania at the moment, providing free health care for those who wouldn't have any care at all because it doesn't exist.

Who is he depriving?

Og

 

[stephen55]

He is depriving/providing Ami of/with more to pontificate about...

One of my sons-in-law is in Romania at the moment, providing free health care for those who wouldn't have any care at all because it doesn't exist.

Who is he depriving?

Og

The community where I live had a small influx of Romanian families after the fall of Nicolae Ceauşescu. Most had relatives they had left behind. One woman had a sister with some kind of a heart problem, who could not get medical care. She would come into the office, begging me in her broken English to write her prescriptions for "heart pills" that she wanted to send to her sister. Unfortunately, she had no idea just exactly what was wrong with her sister and couldn't understand why I wasn't able to treat her sister "at a distance". She came back later with someone fluent in Romanian in an attempt to make it work. It was heartbreaking.

 

[sadangel]

There are always those out there willing to offer and hand of understanding, but you to have to make an effort.

Unbelievable...unfucking believable....

I agree with you.

Some people don't understand what the poor people like myself go through. I need dental care. The "free" clinic only will see me if I am under 21, pregnant or have a child. I am none of those. The cheapest I can get into see a dentist is about $80.00 and that's a reduced price. I get barely $700/mo. with SSI. I have Rent, Heat, Electric, Phone, Trash, Water to pay. Medicaid doesn't cover the glasses or the dental work I need. I had to go to the ER on Sunday because I was in so much pain. Was able to get an antibiotic and some Darvocet. It's helping. For now. It's not going to help for long.

I have made an effort to get help for glasses and for dental. I'm still making an effort. Sometimes, the help really isn't there. Ami doesn't understand this because he hasn't lived it.

 

[amicus]

"...I have made an effort to get help for glasses and for dental. I'm still making an effort. Sometimes, the help really isn't there. Ami doesn't understand this because he hasn't lived it..."

~~~

I was nine years old during the Blizzard of 1949 in Tacoma, Washington. For three days straight, several times each day, I pulled my little toy wagon with 'gunny sacks' (coarse woven backs like plastic garbage bags), to the Railroad Yard two miles away and loaded the sacks and the wagon with chunks of coal that had fallen off the coal cars.

I could offer more, about rising at 5am every day to start a wood fire in the kitchen stove, milk a cow and feed farm animals, fix breakfast for five other children and then off to school.

You make unwarranted assumptions about others merely to support your own position.

I have no idea as to the source of your poverty, I do note that you are here, with a computer and time to converse with others. I had neither a telephone or a television when I was a lad.

Thanks to Social Security, all the old folks have moved to Florida, (hi JBJ), when the extended family would have been there to help their offspring through difficult times.

In government and social legislation attempts to assist those in need, with food stamps, your SSI, welfare, Section 8 housing, innumerable sincere efforts to solve human problems, government has created a contininuing welfare class of people who will riever rise above the poverty level.

Why work and plan for the future when you can stand in line and receive almost everything you need?

Describe what I offer as a 'generational difference', if you wish, but human values are earned, not given.

Amicus

 

[sadangel]

~~~

I was nine years old during the Blizzard of 1949 in Tacoma, Washington. For three days straight, several times each day, I pulled my little toy wagon with 'gunny sacks' (coarse woven backs like plastic garbage bags), to the Railroad Yard two miles away and loaded the sacks and the wagon with chunks of coal that had fallen off the coal cars.

I could offer more, about rising at 5am every day to start a wood fire in the kitchen stove, milk a cow and feed farm animals, fix breakfast for five other children and then off to school.

You make unwarranted assumptions about others merely to support your own position.

I have no idea as to the source of your poverty, I do note that you are here, with a computer and time to converse with others. I had neither a telephone or a television when I was a lad.

Thanks to Social Security, all the old folks have moved to Florida, (hi JBJ), when the extended family would have been there to help their offspring through difficult times.

In government and social legislation attempts to assist those in need, with food stamps, your SSI, welfare, Section 8 housing, innumerable sincere efforts to solve human problems, government has created a contininuing welfare class of people who will riever rise above the poverty level.

Why work and plan for the future when you can stand in line and receive almost everything you need?

Describe what I offer as a 'generational difference', if you wish, but human values are earned, not given.

Amicus

Yes, I have a computer, because some friends deemed me worthy of helping. You don't know anything about me and you make assumptions about me. I am unable to work you moron. I am disabled. 5 strokes since the age of 27. Arthritis in my spine, hips, and all my joints. Severe asmatha. I cannot work if I want to. So you tell me how do I "rise" above these circumstances to get above poverty level? I would love to be able to work again. To be able to afford such things as food. Trust me $40.00/month for food doesn't go far. Try being hungry most of the time. I didn't grow up in luxury and I don't live in it either...

 

[Dragonlipz]

There are always those out there willing to offer and hand of understanding, but you to have to make an effort.

Unbelievable...unfucking believable....

Not really, Stephen55, when you consider Mon Ami's predilection for spouting pious, hypocritical, unsubstantiated nonsense culled from the airwaves of Fox Noise without regard for offering any evidence of validity or truth.
He's quite content to offer his 'Nowhere Man' rant for any and all.........the trick is not to try to engage in a discourse because he can only offer more nonsense and right-wing crapola that can't be proven and hasn't stood the test of time...History is not his strong suite and he's short on truth......He was, after all, 'the Glenn Beck of the Sixties'......(his self-described and pitiful attempt at self-aggrandizement.....)

 

[amicus]

Sadangel, I regret your circumstances and sincerely hope you find a way to survive in somewhat better conditions than the present. However, I will not let you place the blame on me as an uncaring person with political persuasions opposed to yours.

The death toll in Haiti is 230,000, about the same as the Tsunami victims a few years back. Those that survived did so under terrible hardships that are just beginning in Haiti. Americans and people around the world have extended a helping hand in both tragedies with all kinds of assistance.

Life is tenuous at best and my heart goes out to those who have such problems as you describe.



Amicus