FLDS compound

[someplace]

What happened after the charges were found to be fraudulent? Did they drop the investigation?

Ishmael

No. Once a case is opened, it has to be finished. They take the "additional information" into consideration in their final report and determination/recommendation of further action. But the case has to go through it's paces.

Very bureaucratic.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Why the DNA testing?






Well, they couldn't get search warrants before; no evidence...






Now they can focus on getting to the real root of the problem, white Christian men...

 

[Ishmael]

No. Once a case is opened, it has to be finished. They take the "additional information" into consideration in their final report and determination/recommendation of further action. But the case has to go through it's paces.

Very bureaucratic.

Almost like an IRS audit. *chuckle*

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

It will tell which 14 year old had a child with which 50 yr old man, right? There's your statutory rape.

I'd have to check the law books, but I'd imagine statutory rape falls under child abuse considerations.

I thoroughly understand that. But removing the child from the victim is punishing who?

Ishmael

 

[someplace]

Until they sort out WHO is a victim and who is not, you know CPS is going to run this one absolutely by their books, rules and regulations. If that means separating the children from their mothers, etc., that's what they're going to do.

As it happens, CPS does not have enough foster families to handle this large a case. They have been asking for new families to become foster families. One of my bosses volunteered and is going through the vetting & training process now. She thought she was in a better position to do that than be an ad litem for one of the children. This will be a case that racks up thousands and thousands of hours in pro bono work.

 

[Killswitch]

Has anyone mentioned that most boys are ousted fom the group in their pre teen and early teen years? They claim its because they are troublemakers.....but they are just competition for the old men.

I wonder where they actually go.....when kicked out at 13.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Has anyone mentioned that most boys are ousted fom the group in their pre teen and early teen years? They claim its because they are troublemakers.....but they are just competition for the old men.

I wonder where they actually go.....when kicked out at 13.

I caught the tale end of some news show that called them the "Lost Boys' and they were living in some sort of foster living arrangement. I didn't see anything else about it though.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

Has anyone mentioned that most boys are ousted fom the group in their pre teen and early teen years? They claim its because they are troublemakers.....but they are just competition for the old men.

I wonder where they actually go.....when kicked out at 13.

That sounds more like an assertion rather than a fact. Not the part about some boys being booted out in their teen years, and I find it hard to believe that they'd be booted out pre-teen, but the assertion you make that it's because they were competition, and not because there may have been some troublemakers. There could be other reasons too, and perhaps the "ousting" isn't a permanent state of affairs and is more of a journeyman kind of learning independence kind of thing.

I'd like to see more evidence, reliable evidence of this claim of yours.

 

[Killswitch]

That sounds more like an assertion rather than a fact. Not the part about some boys being booted out in their teen years, and I find it hard to believe that they'd be booted out pre-teen, but the assertion you make that it's because they were competition, and not because there may have been some troublemakers. There could be other reasons too, and perhaps the "ousting" isn't a permanent state of affairs and is more of a journeyman kind of learning independence kind of thing.

I'd like to see more evidence, reliable evidence of this claim of yours.

Ex-communicated FLDS Boys are Asking for Help
By Kimberly Houk
KSL TV Channel 5 News
Originally broadcast July 31, 2004

More than 400 teenage boys are wandering the streets of southern Utah ... with no where to go ... and no where to call home. They're called the "Lost Boys" ... Utah's Attorney General says they've been forced out of their polygamist homes in the community of Colorado City, Arizona ... and Hilldale, Utah. Kimberly Houk joins us from the State Capitol with more. More than 1 hundred of the "Lost Boys" filled the Capitol's steps earlier this afternoon. They were there asking for help ... and wanting to tell their story.




Theres plenty of stories about it just a google away.

Dont take my word for it.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

Ex-communicated FLDS Boys are Asking for Help
By Kimberly Houk
KSL TV Channel 5 News
Originally broadcast July 31, 2004

More than 400 teenage boys are wandering the streets of southern Utah ... with no where to go ... and no where to call home. They're called the "Lost Boys" ... Utah's Attorney General says they've been forced out of their polygamist homes in the community of Colorado City, Arizona ... and Hilldale, Utah. Kimberly Houk joins us from the State Capitol with more. More than 1 hundred of the "Lost Boys" filled the Capitol's steps earlier this afternoon. They were there asking for help ... and wanting to tell their story.




Theres plenty of stories about it just a google away.

Dont take my word for it.

Ok so how old is "teenage" 18? 19?? Also you originally stated "pre-teen" as well, now you've dropped that particular assertion - WHY???

Did any of them specifically come from the FLDS compound in question? It appears to be "guilt-by-association" that you're attempting.

What does the FLDS say about this?

 

[Saint Peter]

Ok so how old is "teenage" 18? 19?? Also you originally stated "pre-teen" as well, now you've dropped that particular assertion - WHY???

Did any of them specifically come from the FLDS compound in question?

What does the FLDS say about this?

You seem defensive. Are you a Mormon?

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

You seem defensive. Are you a Mormon?

You seem paranoid, are you a satanist?

What kind of dumb question is that? An attempt at guilt by association simply because I express serious doubts about what appears to be a very unjust and abusive attempt to break up families on spurious, unsupported evidence?

If one man in a town was "possibly" guilty of child abuse, would that give the right for the authorities to come in and take away all the children in the entire town from their parents?

No, I'm not a mormon, but I am a white Christian. However, there seems to be some facists on this thread who are trying to imply that all Mormons are child abusers or some crazy thing similar to that.

Hey, why didn't you even try to answer any of the questions in my post??? Are you trying for CHEAP SHOTS, instead of dealing with hard facts - such as the lack of evidence for any of these assertions of criminal behavior by that particular group?

Some facists on this thread want another Waco? Want to have families broken up on nothing more than guilt-by-association assertions of a "possible" (but UNPROVEN) criminal guilt?

 

[RoryN]

If one man in a town was "possibly" guilty of child abuse, would that give the right for the authorities to come in and take away all the children in the entire town from their parents?

That's a really poor analogy to this compound scenario.

However, there seems to be some facists on this thread who are trying to imply that all Mormons are child abusers or some crazy thing similar to that.

No, not all Mormons are child abusers. Is there a higher rate of child abuse in Mormon / Seventh-Day Adventist / Jehovah's Witness families? Yes. It's a result of the doctrine, and the people attracted to those faiths.

 

[Lavared]

A fifteen year old girl, with no awareness of the outside world, limited education and no marketable skills, with no social support system of family and friends excepts others in a similar situation, but with (say) two children (possibly as a result of rape by her own father), is not in a position to mother those children.

This isn't a problem only at a single compound in Texas. I'll bet there are fifteen-year-old girls in the south side of Chicago that could fall under this same category. In neither instance is it good.

IWhy haven't any of the men been arrested and/or removed from the compound? Even the initial complaint, fraudulent as it was, identified the male as the abuser and the woman/child as the victim.

Is it beginning to seem to anyone else that it's the victims that are being punished so far?

As a mother, hearing that the government can come in and take away children is chilling. If I sit around a campfire one weekend and smoke a joint does that mean that I can be considered a drug addict and lose my kids?

I think our natural tendency is to postulate governmental actions from an inch to a mile and this is what a lot of people find worrisome about this case.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

That's a really poor analogy to this compound scenario.

How? The numbers are about the same. 400 kids, that's enough for an entire town. They want to take away the kids from the parents of what amounts to an entire town on no more evidence than one fraudelent phone call made by a lying pretender.

No, not all Mormons are child abusers. Is there a higher rate of child abuse in Mormon / Seventh-Day Adventist / Jehovah's Witness families? Yes. It's a result of the doctrine, and the people attracted to those faiths.

guilt by association again. Are Mormons the same as Seventh-Day Adventists? No. Are the same as Jehovah's Witnesses? No.

What's your next cheap attempt at the guilt by association gambit? Let's fictionalize the whole truckload of unsupported assertions by claiming that because Hasidic Jews are possibly more often guilty of accounting fraud, that Sephardic Jews should be investigated and have suspicions cast upon them too.

Why not start claiming that all members of religions are mentally unbalanced potential criminals and therefore should have their Constitutional rights violated freely, whenever someone points the finger of assertions of child abuse with no evidence to support it - but its OK because "they're all guilty" right?

 

[RoryN]

How? The numbers are about the same. 400 kids, that's enough for an entire town.

An entire town isn't composed of people with the same belief system, living sequestered from the rest of society.

I'm not in the mood to be playing Captain Obvious.

guilt by association again. Are Mormons the same as Seventh-Day Adventists? No. Are the same as Jehovah's Witnesses? No.

I pointed out the similarities; no guilt by association was implied at all. I suppose you can translate my words any way you'd like to, though.

Why not start claiming that all members of religions are mentally unbalanced potential criminals and therefore should have their Constitutional rights violated freely

Yeah yeah, we get it - "Leave religion alone!" *sniff* My advice is that you pick your battles a little more intelligently. Point out the good things churches do, for instance, instead of arguing for the rights of religious people up to no good.

 

[Calabama]

No, not all Mormons are child abusers. Is there a higher rate of child abuse in Mormon / Seventh-Day Adventist / Jehovah's Witness families? Yes. It's a result of the doctrine, and the people attracted to those faiths.

Let me just make a quick clarification, The Mormon Church has absolutely nothing to do with these FLDS compounds. They are not in any way shape or form members of the "Mormon" church.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

An entire town isn't composed of people with the same belief system, living sequestered from the rest of society.

Many towns are. There are many towns in the midwest and other parts of the US of A with only one religionl; Christianity, and all of the same sect of it too.

Their belief system is neither here nor there, you are only trying to claim a special exception to allow unsupported assertions of criminal behavior, and guilt-byassociatin because YOU THINK that they are a "cult", so therefore they must be "bad"

I'm not in the mood to be playing Captain Obvious.

I'm not in the mood for Captain Bullshit either. Stop shovelling it.

I pointed out the similarities; no guilt by association was implied at all.

LMAO - next time try shooting someone and telling everyone afterwards that you didn't do it. You most definitely, 100%, without a shred of evidence to support your claims, use a guilt-by-association argument. Denying it, don't change it.

I suppose you can translate my words any way you'd like to, though.

No need to, everyone can see it. You'll keep denying the obvious about what yiuy did anyway.

Yeah yeah, we get it - "Leave religion alone!"

No, you don't get it. Its not about religion, its about rights. More black men than white men are in prison in the USA. Should we take away all black children from their families because they might have parents with criminal tendencies?

They did just that in Australia for decades. They all it the Lost Generation.

Why stop at 400 kids? Why stop at one FLDS compound? Let's move onto taking the kids from towns across America. take them all away. We only need guilt by association, fraudalent phone calls of child abuse, and unsupported assertions. Who cares about justice or rights?

*sniff* My advice is that you pick your battles a little more intelligently.

Take your own advice. You need it more than anyone so far. *Sniffling* and crying won't help you.

Point out the good things churches do, for instance, instead of arguing for the rights of religious people up to no good.

I shouldn't need to. The point is all too clear. Your defense of the taking away of the children of an entire town, or even a single family, on nothing more than fraudalent assertions, trial by media, and guilt-by-association is an untenable and unethical position.

 

[RoryN]

Let me just make a quick clarification, The Mormon Church has absolutely nothing to do with these FLDS compounds. They are not in any way shape or form members of the "Mormon" church.

The Mormon Church has a history of associating/disassociating itself with people/groups of people, based upon the advantages/disadvantages of ensuing publicity. So, I'll wait until more details of this case unfold before agreeing with you.

(My background: mom's side of the family is prominent Mormon. She left the fold at a young age.)

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

Let me just make a quick clarification, The Mormon Church has absolutely nothing to do with these FLDS compounds. They are not in any way shape or form members of the "Mormon" church.

There were different Mormon churches. Don't forget that either.

The FLDS is not part of the LDS, but they are still "technically" mormons, aren't they?

 

[Calabama]

The Mormon Church has a history of associating/disassociating itself with people/groups of people, based upon the advantages/disadvantages of ensuing publicity. So, I'll wait until more details of this case unfold before agreeing with you.

(My background: mom's side of the family is prominent Mormon. She left the fold at a young age.)

I wouldn't say based on the advantages/disadvantages of publicity. The Mormon church abolished plural marriage when it was made illegal (keep in mind when the mormon church did practise it, there were no rules against it whatsoever). I'd be interested to know who the church has disassociated itself with reasons of publicity. I too am no longer a member, as I disagree with a number of their beliefs, but I do feel the need to defend them on this subject.

There were different Mormon churches. Don't forget that either.

The FLDS is not part of the LDS, but they are still "technically" mormons, aren't they?

There were different Mormon Churches? I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by that.

Technically, they are not Mormons at all. That would be like saying all Bible based faiths are Catholic because they use the same book. Not true at all. The FLDS 'faith' thinks that because they use the Book of Mormon also that means they are Mormon. It doesn't. It means they are a bunch of abusive men operating on the premise of religious based culture.

 

[RoryN]

The Mormon church abolished plural marriage when it was made illegal

Exactly. And they still support it in secret.

I'd be interested to know who the church has disassociated itself with reasons of publicity.

Polygamists - even while still supporting them secretly.

Many towns are. There are many towns in the midwest and other parts of the US of A with only one religionl; Christianity, and all of the same sect of it too.

And many of them have been the subject of scrutiny, too, as a result. Diversity is an American value for a reason - homogeneous towns don't impress me.

You most definitely, 100%, without a shred of evidence to support your claims, use a guilt-by-association argument.

And you're obviously a liar. Not a Christian value.

More black men than white men are in prison in the USA. Should we take away all black children from their families because they might have parents with criminal tendencies?

How deep is your vat of ridiculous analogies? They border on the humorous.

The point is all too clear. Your defense of the taking away of the children of an entire town, or even a single family, on nothing more than fraudalent assertions, trial by media, and guilt-by-association is an untenable and unethical position.

There's a die-hard atheist here named mansome, who spews the same sort of garbage per his own beliefs. You two are both Johnny-One-Notes, and neither of you play that note particularly well. You ought to exchange PMs.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

There were different Mormon Churches? I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by that.

I mean exactly what I said. Who decides who is mormon and who is not? Does the LDS have to sole right to do so? I think not.

Technically, they are not Mormons at all.

Based on what?

That would be like saying all Bible based faiths are Catholic because they use the same book. Not true at all.

A lot of Christian church groups claim that Mormons are not in any way "Christian", and worship the devil, does that make it true?

The FLDS 'faith' thinks that because they use the Book of Mormon also that means they are Mormon. It doesn't.

Then what does? Only membership in the LDS? That seems to be a sefl-serving limitation for the LDS to take. It would be like the Roman Catholic Church claiming that the Russian and Greek Orthodox churches are not "christian".

It means they are a bunch of abusive men operating on the premise of religious based culture.

Does it? It seems to be that all you're doing here is repeating an apparently unsupported assertion that is bandied about without any evidence of actual wrong doing on the part of these particular members of the FLDS. How would you enjoy it if this was done to your family?

 

[Calabama]

Exactly. And they still support it in secret.



Polygamists - even while still supporting them secretly.

They still support it in secret? How so???

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

And you're obviously a liar. Not a Christian value.

Not in this case, and YOU WERE THE ONE WHO JUST LIED.

Exhibit-A

No, not all Mormons are child abusers. Is there a higher rate of child abuse in Mormon / Seventh-Day Adventist / Jehovah's Witness families? Yes. It's a result of the doctrine, and the people attracted to those faiths.

The above is an OBVIOUS ATTEMPT AT GUILT-BY-ASSOCIATION.

Denying it, doesn't change that,