Hillary Pulls it Out.

[shereads]

I wish I felt more optimistic about Hilary's candidacy - or Obama's, for that matter. I doubt if anything can make American elect a woman or a black man as president. Not in this decade...Maybe the two of them on one ticket would be enough of a novelty to register a few million new voters, but I doubt it.

That said, I have two competing theories about what happened in New Hampshire.

1: The only thing that scares voters more than a woman president is a black president.

or,

2. Woman voters responded to that emotional moment of Hil's last week by remembering just how lousy it can be for a woman to compete in a man's world. How many of us in the corporate world have felt ourselves close to tears when we were in a roomful of men who were just waiting for us to fall apart? Even more than we hate the tears, we hate knowing we've been conditioned to believe that the only genuine emotion that's acceptable in the business world is smug self-satisfaction.

My own reaction, when I saw the news report of Hilary choking up during that interview, was this: I've always admired her, but that was the first time I've really liked her. She felt what I feel about our country - that it's given us so much, seeing it move backward has been painful, frustrating, infuriating. Tragic.

The tears made her human.

The fact that she reined them in made her powerful. A woman to be reckoned with.

I still wish she hadn't decided to run. Not just for the party's sake, because I think she'll lose badly, but for her own sake. It's going to be a bitter loss.

 

[sr71plt]

Of course it's all moot anyway. On February 4th, Gore is going to announce, "Well, OK, I think I'd like to have another run at it afterall," and everything will be thrown into a tailspin.

I've never doubted that Hillary really, really cares (about the issues, not just about herself). "The Moment," however, was pure, orchestrated acting. (I've been both an actor and a newspaper drama critic--not mention that I've been in "the room" when cameras weren't rolling and Hillary was being the real Hillary. I have no doubt that she sheds tears of frustration if not taken seriously--but not in public like that unless it is part of the script.)

 

[Pure]

sr71-- so, 'the moment' is orchestrated.' big deal.

sher-- actually, i'm guardedly optimistic if HRC runs. the rightwing folks like Ami will make such fools of themselves, e.g. with menopause jokes, that the rest of us will vote for her.

 

[sr71plt]

sr71-- so, 'the moment' is orchestrated.' big deal.

sher-- actually, i'm guardedly optimistic if HRC runs. the rightwing folks like Ami will make such fools of themselves, e.g. with menopause jokes, that the rest of us will vote for her.

You seem to be flip flopping. You thought "The Moment" was a big deal in your previous posting.

Hillary was "human" before "The Moment." The fact that the sheep we have for an electorate require that a fake moment has to be dredged up for her to appear "human" and genuine and that she dutifully delivers are what seem telling to me.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

NOTE TO ROX AND TRYSAIL

I have to keep this straight: of the entitities which preclude the existence of a free market, according to roxanne, are combinations:

where these combinations are unions, they are evil. why, because they raise wages, and that's evil, because of 'no free lunches' or 'scarcity' or some such. and the consumer pays for it. further, money in the hands of the poor is squandered.

where these combinations are cartels, they are good, or at least harmless.

Hmmm, not sure where I've ever said that "cartels are good." In fact I've quoted the following from the wise Adam Smith on numerous occasions:

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."

As for unions, the problem I have there is not with the institution itself, but with laws that have created a tilted playing field in favor of unions, essentially giving them a version of cartel power. It is these laws that have caused so much corruption in labor unions. In addition, there is a streak of violence in the union movement that has not gone away.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I wish I felt more optimistic about Hilary's candidacy - or Obama's, for that matter. I doubt if anything can make American elect a woman or a black man as president.

With respect, I think that's crap, She. A woman or a black will be elected in a heartbeat if the individual is devastatingly competent, and is in synch with the general zeitgeist of the American public. I know it's a different system, but there was no such silliness when Maggie Thatcher became PM, and the presidency was Colin Powell's for the asking a couple cycles ago.

 

[sr71plt]

With respect, I think that's crap, She. A woman or a black will be elected in a heartbeat if the individual is devastatingly competent, and is in synch with the general zeitgeist of the American public. I know it's a different system, but there was no such silliness when Maggie Thatcher became PM, and the presidency was Colin Powell's for the asking a couple cycles ago.

I agree. I think the majority of the American electorate is beyond fundamentally caring about race or gender in its leaders--thank goodness.

 

[trysail]

Dear Hillary,

Fuck you.​

Sincerely,
Your pal and good buddy
(s) John Kerry​

Dear John,

Fuck you.​

Sincerely,
Your pal and good buddy,
(s) John Kerry​

 

[sr71plt]

Dear Hillary,

Fuck you.​

Sincerely,
Your pal and good buddy
(s) John Kerry​

Dear John,

Fuck you.​

Sincerely,
Your pal and good buddy,
(s) John Kerry​

This does sort of beg the question of whether Kerry offered to give Obama his endorsement before the New Hampshire primary and Obama answered, "Ummm, no thanks. Maybe after."

On the other side, I see all of the Republicans running for the corners at the mere thought GB would endorse them.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SHEREADS

A few years ago I worked with a female prosecutor. D.J. was/is the best. I recall one occasion when she told a defense lawyer and his client "Gentleman, Mr. Johnson and I are gonna give you one chance to surrender and escape in a lifeboat. Otherwise we're gonna fuck you in the ass." D.J. would make a great President or general.

There are women out there who do not give a warm shit about "Its a man's world." Unfortunately theyre too smart to run for President.

I can well imagine D.J. pinching one of Obama's ears until he squealed, then call him a sissy on national tv.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

It was more the straw hats and dirty boots that did it.

But don't worry, I wasn't really all that insulted. I'm just getting sick of the Iowa-dissing.

Jen,
Neither Hilary Clinton nor any other candidate would stoop to the "farm illusion" to garner votes. That hasn't been done since the Eisenhauer Administration, I think. The closest I can remember is a picture of Richard Nixon milking a cow in Kansas or someplace (he didn't win, by the way).

The real problem with Hilary Clinton is that she tends to talk down to her audiences as if she were giving a final summation in court. That doesn't go over and certainly didn't in Iowa. Her change of demeanor in New Hampshire made a world of difference. I hope she learned something.

The thing about Obama is he has a plan. The difference in Hilary is she tells you what the plan is and how she's going to implament it. Personally, I think Obama is clueless about the making his plan a reality.

 

[Pure]

good points, jenny,

does obama has something to back up the inspiration? lots of brains and sauve manners, but what else.

another question. i know he likes to 'unite,' but can he deal with clear determined opposition. some of the things needing to be done will encounter it.

consider the opposition of FDR. it was rancorous and lasted decades.

 

[shereads]

Of course it's all moot anyway. On February 4th, Gore is going to announce, "Well, OK, I think I'd like to have another run at it afterall," and everything will be thrown into a tailspin.

I've never doubted that Hillary really, really cares (about the issues, not just about herself). "The Moment," however, was pure, orchestrated acting.

Oh, right! She knew that breaking down in tears is the best way for a girl to get what she wants. Jewelry, clothes, a position on her company's board of directors...the White House. Whatever; tears work every time.

I'm insulted, on behalf of every woman who's ever fought to maintain the tough facade that is all that stands between us and being demoted to Chief Coffee-Bringer for the boys' club that is the American workplace. Not that you're the first person to suggest that Senator Clinton is suddenly a brilliant actress, able to summon tears at will. What's surprising is that some of the same pundits who are now speculating that she cried ON PURPOSE were predicting, only a week ago, that her moment of weakness would cost her the nomination.

Even in this, a woman can't win.

 

[cantdog]

Hillary didn't 'pull out' anything. My God. Six fuckin people in New Hampshire voted. Big fuckin deal.

Christ, they spent hundreds of hours on this shit, spinning their wheels with a lot of bad polls. It's more interesting to do a fuckin crossword puzzle.

 

[cantdog]

Oh, right! She knew that breaking down in tears is the best way for a girl to get what she wants. Jewelry, clothes, a position on her company's board of directors...the White House. Whatever; tears work every time.

You aren't the first person I've heard suggesting that Senator Clinton has suddenly become a brilliant actress. What's surprising, though, is that some of the same pundits who are now speculating that she cried ON PURPOSE were predicting, only a week ago, that her tearful moment would cost her the election.

Even in this, a woman can't win.

She did actually take a position on something, for the first time. She's been the most slippery and noncommittal of them all, but New Hampshire made her declare a position.

 

[shereads]

Jen,
Neither Hilary Clinton nor any other candidate would stoop to the "farm illusion" to garner votes. That hasn't been done since the Eisenhauer Administration, I think.

What about the "ranch illusion?" That seems to have worked well.

 

[shereads]

She did actually take a position on something, for the first time.

And that's what will cost her the nomination. Nothing is more dangerous in American politics than a position on an issue. (The exception being "I won't raise taxes.")

You're right about New Hampshire not mattering a damn in the greater scheme of things, CDog. I was happy for Hil, simply because she's fought so hard to get this far and I'd have hated to see her turn into an also-ran right out of the gate. But let's face it, New Hampshire is one of the friendlier places she'll face. I can confidently predict that South Carolina voters will bitch-slap Mrs. Bill Clinton to her knees, and keep her there so they can rest their beer on her head while they make nigger jokes about Obama.

Do we really have to have a presidential election? Can't we just let them draw straws or something? This is too painful.

 

[shereads]

I agree. I think the majority of the American electorate is beyond fundamentally caring about race or gender in its leaders--thank goodness.

On what do you base your respect for the majority of the American electorate? A recent presidential election?

I wish I shared your faith, but I know too many closet racists and feminism-bashers, even among those who consider themselves politically left-of-center, to imagine that this country is anywhere close to color-blind or gender-neutral when it comes to positions of serious power.

Remember, it hasn't been that long ago that Tiger Woods' presence at an Augusta golf club was considered a major victory for racial tolerance - or a heinous slap against freedom, depending on one's background.

When we have a black or woman president, it'll be a promotion from vice president. The first black vice president will be very, very white, like Colin Powell (or Barach Obama); the first woman will be very, very conservative and running against a liberal opponent who is openly gay or a practicing Hindu.

 

[sr71plt]

On what do you base your respect for the majority of the American electorate? A recent presidential election?

I wish I shared your faith, but I know too many closet racists and feminism-bashers, even among those who consider themselves politically left-of-center, to imagine that this country is anywhere close to color-blind or gender-neutral when it comes to positions of serious power.

Remember, it hasn't been that long ago that Tiger Woods' presence at an Augusta golf club was considered a major victory for racial tolerance - or a heinous slap against freedom, depending on one's background.

When we have a black or woman president, it'll be a promotion from vice president. The first black vice president will be very, very white, like Colin Powell (or Barach Obama); the first woman will be very, very conservative and running against a liberal opponent who is openly gay or a practicing Hindu.

No, I think it's only surfaced very recently--perhaps not really seen by anyone much until we had Clinton and Obama right there in front of us as frontrunners. But I see seeds of it in a couple of places. Somewhere here I had an exchange with Pure on who the women senators were. She voiced the stereotypes that they were the widows of "a person" (I like to use that phrase because when I served abroad, my diplomatic passport had my title stamped on it on an inside page--in the same place, my wife's passport had "dependent of a person" stamped--even though she had a position in the embassy as well). But I digress. I countered that I think most of the women senators now are seen as politcal forces in their own right--and I didn't really know if there were any widows of "a person" left there at all.

That's an indication for women. For blacks, though, I think for a good five years now people accepted in their minds that Collin Powell was presidential material--and they had some time to get used to that. And when Obama gave a stirring speech at the last Democratic National Convention, I think people latched into him in a way they never did (and never will) someone like Jessie Jackson.

Just a couple of instances, but I have not heard any behind-the-fans hissing about Clinton and Obama that could even touch what I heard on this subject until very recently.

So, I don't agree with you. I think that if either Clinton or Obama get the Democratic nomination (which is in no way assured), they will be the next president (with the slight possibility that McCain could give them a run for their money--or that something really different will have happened between now and November)--and I think there will be practically no twittering about their race or gender. Just what I think.

 

[shereads]

You have more faith in this electorate than I do, by far. I envy you.

My belief in the whole system went down in flames when Bush-Cheney were re-elected.

 

[sr71plt]

You have more faith in this electorate than I do, by far. I envy you.

My belief in the whole system went down in flames when Bush-Cheney were re-elected.

I guess I have to ask you how old you are.

I've felt the whole system going down the drain about three times already in my lifetime. My parents moved out of the country briefly when Kennedy was elected, expecting the continent to sink at any moment. I've taken overseas assignments a couple of times myself just not to be in Washington for the craziness.

If you want to see the face of the Devil trying to sink the ship, I'll give you Nixon from some very scary times and observations of his administration at work. Bush is no where close to that--Cheney is, but he's pretty busy just trying to find his next breath these days.

This is a pretty strong boat.

 

[cantdog]

With respect, I think that's crap, She. A woman or a black will be elected in a heartbeat if the individual is devastatingly competent, and is in synch with the general zeitgeist of the American public. I know it's a different system, but there was no such silliness when Maggie Thatcher became PM, and the presidency was Colin Powell's for the asking a couple cycles ago.

If these motherfuckers would unbend and use populist rhetoric, they would win. Populism electrifies people. Most of America is not being represented properly. They know it. They're sick of it. Obama is still too aristo. Hillary is too canny and withholds her actual plan. An attendee at a Hillary address senses immediately that she distrusts the people. Obama has much more charisma, but his appeal is still too high.

McCain has morphed out of recognition, and become much more of a party man, but it does appear he's the most electable of the pack. The RNC can see that, now. Giuliani's stalled, and he doesn't know why.

Either of them could win by talking populism, though.

 

[Boxlicker101]

When I saw the title of this thread, I said: "That's impossible. She's the only candidate who can't "pull it out."

Remember, this IS a porn site.

 

[Pure]

Dowd on the tears

Can Hillary Cry Her Way Back to the White House?



By MAUREEN DOWD
Published: January 9, 2008
DERRY, N.H.


Blogrunner: Reactions From Around the WebWhen I walked into the office Monday, people were clustering around a computer to watch what they thought they would never see: Hillary Clinton with the unmistakable look of tears in her eyes.

A woman gazing at the screen was grimacing, saying it was bad. Three guys watched it over and over, drawn to the “humanized” Hillary. One reporter who covers security issues cringed. “We are at war,” he said. “Is this how she’ll talk to Kim Jong-il?”

Another reporter joked: “That crying really seemed genuine. I’ll bet she spent hours thinking about it beforehand.” He added dryly: “Crying doesn’t usually work in campaigns. Only in relationships.”

Bill Clinton was known for biting his lip, but here was Hillary doing the Muskie. Certainly it was impressive that she could choke up and stay on message.

She won her Senate seat after being embarrassed by a man. She pulled out New Hampshire and saved her presidential campaign after being embarrassed by another man. She was seen as so controlling when she ran for the Senate that she had to be seen as losing control, as she did during the Monica scandal, before she seemed soft enough to attract many New York voters.

Getting brushed back by Barack Obama in Iowa, her emotional moment here in a cafe and her chagrin at a debate question suggesting she was not likable served the same purpose, making her more appealing, especially to women, particularly to women over 45.

The Obama campaign calculated that they had the women’s vote over the weekend but watched it slip away in the track of her tears.

At the Portsmouth cafe on Monday, talking to a group of mostly women, she blinked back her misty dread of where Obama’s “false hopes” will lead us — “I just don’t want to see us fall backwards,” she said tremulously — in time to smack her rival: “But some of us are right and some of us are wrong. Some of us are ready and some of us are not.”

There was a poignancy about the moment, seeing Hillary crack with exhaustion from decades of yearning to be the principal rather than the plus-one. But there was a whiff of Nixonian self-pity about her choking up. What was moving her so deeply was her recognition that the country was failing to grasp how much it needs her. In a weirdly narcissistic way, she was crying for us. But it was grimly typical of her that what finally made her break down was the prospect of losing

 

[Pure]

Did Matthews help elect HRC?

Columbia Journalism Review story on Matthew's possible effect:



And Matthews seems awfully intent on motivating any sort of latent anti-Chris Matthews vote in future primary states as well. Get a load of what he said (hat tip, Greg Sargent) about Hillary Clinton this morning on MSNBC:

The Hillary appeal has always been about her mix of toughness and sympathy for her. Let’s not forget — and I’ll be brutal —the reason she’s a U.S. senator, the reason she’s a candidate for president, the reason she may be a front-runner is her husband messed around. That’s how she got to be senator from New York. We keep forgetting it. She didn’t win on her merits. She won because everybody felt, my god, this woman stood up under humiliation, right? That’s how it happened. In 1998 she went to New York and campaigned for Chuck Schumer as almost like the grieving widow of absurdity, and she did it so well and courageously, but it was about the humiliation of Bill Clinton.
CJR

http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/the_antichris_matthews_vote.php?page=2