What I learned from publishing a Loving Wives story

[EmilyMiller]

Even here, I’m not going to write any spoilers. You are encouraged to read the actual story (typos and all - so embarrassing ). Here it is:

Harper’s Reckoning

So an introductory statement. Contrary to some feedback, I was not trying to troll the denizens of LW. Neither was I trying to seduce the pure of heart and mind to my “deviant” ways. The story is definitely an EmilyMiller story, with my own view on things, but I believe I was punctilious in working within the cheating wife and related consequences paradigm. My FMC was a cheating wife, whose actions resulted in consequences. The author didn’t cheat.

Let’s look at numbers:

Views: ~22k

Favorites: 19

Comments: 67 (two are me and one person split their thoughts across two comments, so 64)

Rating: 3.02 / 457 (457 votes, gulp!)

My (slightly out of date) average rating (not including this story is) 4.32 (I know, I’m so crap ), so this is 1.30 lower. Let’s assume some of this (maybe 0.50) is the well documented LW effect. So perhaps 0.80 worse than average, but - with this adjustment - not a total outlier.

Looking at it another way, as it’s a 1 - 5 scale, the rating is neutral. As many people hated as liked it (not making any allowance for neutral).

What about comments. Well here is a superficial analysis:

Overall comments: 64
Positive: 43 (67%)
Neutral 3 (5%)
Negative: 18 (28%) - I counted “wrong category” as negative - I guess that could also have been neutral

Breaking it down between named users and anonymous:

Named users: 43
Positive: 34 (79%)
Neutral: 2 (5%)
Negative: 7 (16%)

Anonymous: 21
Positive: 9 (43%)
Neutral: 1 (5%)
Negative 11 (52%)

Now I know that people say anonymous comments are made by readers too. But I put way less weight on them. The unpleasant comments are normally from cowards hiding behind anonymity to piss on people with no danger of splashback. I’m not saying that anonymous feedback is worthless, I just pay more attention to those who are brave enough to stand behind their words.

Even so, only just over half of anonymous comments were negative. Just under half were positive.

Going to named users, 4 out of 5 were positive. Only 3 out of 20 were negative.

Looking overall, two thirds of people who commented were positive.

This is much better than I was anticipating. What the numbers and the content of the comments tells me is:

1. At least half of the LW readership (and most likely more) is tolerant of “alternative lifestyles” (hate the phrase, but WTF)
2. A majority of commenters welcomed a story that was probably quite different to the norm - even if some said that they might not have read it if it was in a different category
3. The minority of commenters who disliked it, either said “wrong category” perfectly politely or launched into tirade - launching into a tirade was a minority within a minority and not at all representative of the whole
4. Those who launched into a tirade sounded a little like conspiracy theorists, evil, deviant Emily is trying to steal readers, to corrupt innocent souls, to trick people, to laugh at them - it was all getting a bit Incel / 4chan
5. The tirades sometimes were ad hominem - apparently I don’t like men (tell my fiancé) and I don’t get laid much (ditto)

So my takeaway is that LW’s reputation as a den on iniquity is driven by a small fraction of its readership. One whose rabidly pro-heterosexual, pro-traditional views are not necessarily shared by the majority of LW readers. But empty vessels…

I know this is not a thorough study. But I think the above conclusions are still sound.

Em

 

[MrPixel]

So, in essence, it's just like the rest of the world these days, where an aggressive and vociferous small minority dominate the conversation and perceptions.

It's always been that way, but the internet has become an amplifier of that effect, giving the crazies equal standing and exposure to the more informed and reasoned majority.

 

[EmilyMiller]

So, in essence, it's just like the rest of the world these days, where an aggressive and vociferous small minority dominate the conversation and perceptions.

It's always been that way, but the internet has become an amplifier of that effect, giving the crazies equal standing and exposure to the more informed and reasoned majority.

Yeah - but the crazies are on steroids.

Em

 

[Cagivagurl]

The difference in posting a story in LW, is readers....
Yes, you will get some hateful comments, but if you can live with that. It's not so bad....

 

[EmilyMiller]

The difference in posting a story in LW, is readers....
Yes, you will get some hateful comments, but if you can live with that. It's not so bad....

I’m not really down with the concept. Can’t see how a wife cheating is a kink. Feels very 1930s.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

Even here, I’m not going to write any spoilers. You are encouraged to read the actual story (typos and all - so embarrassing ). Here it is:

Harper’s Reckoning

So an introductory statement. Contrary to some feedback, I was not trying to troll the denizens of LW. Neither was I trying to seduce the pure of heart and mind to my “deviant” ways. The story is definitely an EmilyMiller story, with my own view on things, but I believe I was punctilious in working within the cheating wife and related consequences paradigm. My FMC was a cheating wife, whose actions resulted in consequences. The author didn’t cheat.

Let’s look at numbers:

Views: ~22k

Favorites: 19

Comments: 67 (two are me and one person split their thoughts across two comments, so 64)

Rating: 3.02 / 457 (457 votes, gulp!)

My (slightly out of date) average rating (not including this story is) 4.32 (I know, I’m so crap ), so this is 1.30 lower. Let’s assume some of this (maybe 0.50) is the well documented LW effect. So perhaps 0.80 worse than average, but - with this adjustment - not a total outlier.

Looking at it another way, as it’s a 1 - 5 scale, the rating is neutral. As many people hated as liked it (not making any allowance for neutral).

What about comments. Well here is a superficial analysis:

Overall comments: 64
Positive: 43 (67%)
Neutral 3 (5%)
Negative: 18 (28%) - I counted “wrong category” as negative - I guess that could also have been neutral

Breaking it down between named users and anonymous:

Named users: 43
Positive: 34 (79%)
Neutral: 2 (5%)
Negative: 7 (16%)

Anonymous: 21
Positive: 9 (43%)
Neutral: 1 (5%)
Negative 11 (52%)

Now I know that people say anonymous comments are made by readers too. But I put way less weight on them. The unpleasant comments are normally from cowards hiding behind anonymity to piss on people with no danger of splashback. I’m not saying that anonymous feedback is worthless, I just pay more attention to those who are brave enough to stand behind their words.

Even so, only just over half of anonymous comments were negative. Just under half were positive.

Going to named users, 4 out of 5 were positive. Only 3 out of 20 were negative.

Looking overall, two thirds of people who commented were positive.

This is much better than I was anticipating. What the numbers and the content of the comments tells me is:

1. At least half of the LW readership (and most likely more) is tolerant of “alternative lifestyles” (hate the phrase, but WTF)
2. A majority of commenters welcomed a story that was probably quite different to the norm - even if some said that they might not have read it if it was in a different category
3. The minority of commenters who disliked it, either said “wrong category” perfectly politely or launched into tirade - launching into a tirade was a minority within a minority and not at all representative of the whole
4. Those who launched into a tirade sounded a little like conspiracy theorists, evil, deviant Emily is trying to steal readers, to corrupt innocent souls, to trick people, to laugh at them - it was all getting a bit Incel / 4chan
5. The tirades sometimes were ad hominem - apparently I don’t like men (tell my fiancé) and I don’t get laid much (ditto)

So my takeaway is that LW’s reputation as a den on iniquity is driven by a small fraction of its readership. One whose rabidly pro-heterosexual, pro-traditional views are not necessarily shared by the majority of LW readers. But empty vessels…

I know this is not a thorough study. But I think the above conclusions are still sound.

Em

Another stat.

10 LW stories were published the same day as mine. 7 were ranked worse, two better. None broke 3.40.

More people viewed my story than any other, By a factor of two. I got the most number of favorites as well.

Em

 

[Djmac1031]

I’m not really down with the concept. Can’t see how a wife cheating is a kink. Feels very 1930s.

Em

If one goes by the Official LE description of the category:

" Loving Wives
Married extra-marital fun: swinging, sharing & more."

Doesn't say anything about CHEATING although of course that can be included.

But that doesn't make it EXCLUSIVELY a CHEATING ONLY category.

Lots of couples swing, share, allow for play with other partners, all very consensual.

How it became either "Cuck sits humiliated while forced to watch his wife fuck another man" or "husband gets revenge on cheating wife" as the only options is beyond me.

I wrote a swingers story about a very happily married couple who picked up both a man and woman to take home for each of them to play with.

Technically, BY LE DESCRIPTION, it was a LW story.

But I refused to post it there because I was unwilling to have what I believed was a decent story trashed by trolls, so I posted it to Group Sex instead.

 

[djrip]

I’m not really down with the concept. Can’t see how a wife cheating is a kink. Feels very 1930s.

Em

I'm not sure the category is as prescriptive as it seems you might think; a cheating wife is only one of the options. My Loving Wives stories have a wife who, yes, begins by cheating with another man, and never gets caught, but her experience leads her to opening up, bring home a girlfriend, and encouraging her husband to make his own move on her as well. (These are my oldest stories, not very well developed unfortunately)

I've also read ones about cuck-queen type scenarios, just a reversal of the cuck story, but it can go both ways. She can be into humiliation and seeing her husband with a more dominant woman.

Then there's ones about a wife and husband just treating each other, like Best Wife Ever, 12 Days of Sexmas.

Now, as for the cheating wife theme... I see what you mean, the idea of a wife cheating, and a wife in particular rather than a husband, being a kink, is a little funny. But cheating itself can be racy, exciting, kinky. See RedLegoDragon for that - stories about the joy of cheating, reveling in the act itself, not concerned with consequences. The husband or bf is not humiliated; rather, he's oblivious as the cheaters loudly fuck up against the outside of the door to his room, that kind of thing. (actually that example was The_Shadow_Rising's, but they both explore this theme) It's fun. A lot more fun than burning bitches (usually, your burned bitches were very fun).

 

[EmilyMiller]

Still don’t get it

 

[NoTalentHack]

How it became either "Cuck sits humiliated while forced to watch his wife fuck another man" or "husband gets revenge on cheating wife" as the only options is beyond me.

I can explain that, I think.

Literotica is old; 25 years this year. We still have an Anal category, which is kind of silly; it made sense when it was still pretty taboo, but almost half of all adults have at least experimented with it. But it's been there forever, it's still relatively popular, although there's a lot more ATM and analingus there than there used to be, along with a bunch more pegging stories and stuff that previously would have gone in Gay Male or BDSM. Getting off track just a touch, but that's indicative of the sort of fetish drift you see across categories.

EC used to be about as vanilla as vanilla can get. It was, as described in a popular writers' guide "the missionary position of Literotica." And it is still more vanilla than most other categories, but there's plenty of light bondage, cheating spouses, anal, toys, group, and other stuff that "belongs" in other categories.

BDSM is a lot more intense than it used to be; there's stuff that's bordering on noncon in there, along with occasional heavy femdom (and maledom, but that's been there for a while), straight up painslut stuff, scarification, etc. There was SOME of that stuff there before, but it's become a lot more the norm. and the lighter "tee hee, tied up and tickled with a feather" or "ooooh, a riding crop, how kinky!" stuff is in EC or even Romance.

Not all of the categories are like this, but many of them kind of evolved over time to be "more" of what they were before. More extreme, more exclusive (in the "this stuff only!" sense), more structured, etc. But in Interracial and Loving Wives, where was there to go?

Well, Interracial went from "Romance and EC, except BBC/Orientalism tropes" to "My BBC bull cucks my husband and I love it" 90% of the time. People of different ethnicities getting together was already becoming less taboo when the site started, and now it's just a thing that happens. So, for example, my stories Meat Market and Cultural Exchanges, which would have comfortably fit into IR 25 year ago now "belong" in Romance. You still have a few of them show up in IR, but they're rare and usually score poorly.

Loving Wives' taboo was this: in the 90s, it was still "accepted" that men cheated more than women, and that they did it because they wanted to fuck more than women. So having a highly sexed female character with agency that wanted to step outside of her marriage? That was a kink. So was having a swapping or swinging relationship. But even those latter aren't that big of a deal anymore, nor is polyamory, although none of them are really mainstream. And there are still stories like that in LW; at a quick glance, half of the stories on there could go in Group if the characters weren't married. They're just about swinging or swapping or sharing. And "regular" cheating often goes into EC, too, with adulterous spouses of both sexes.

Those stories are very low-rated, partially because most of them are written poorly, but also for the same reason romances don't work in IR anymore: they aren't extreme enough in either direction. But unlike in IR, where there's a pretty uniform direction, there are two in LW. The first is cuckolding, often to the point of cruelty. What's kinkier than encouraging your wife to have sex with other men? Encouraging her to do it while locked in a cage and never getting any relief. Having a wife that's SO highly sexed that it actually makes the husband a non-sexual being, or a being only able to derive sexual pleasure by proxy.

The flipside, of which there are actually not that many, is where the wife cheats and there are consequences; this isn't a sexual fetish, but it is, as I've said before, another form of fantasy fulfilment: a cheating wife is punished, and the man (usually) gets on with his life with a newer, younger, more sexually available partner and he's beloved and honorable and everybody claps. But they're not actually that common; on the LW new stories right now, there are two or three of them, compared to like eight cuck ones. There's an ebb and flow, and right now, it's definitely an ebb.

LW is the only place on the site where one of the most popular flavors goes diametrically opposite of the original intent of the site, but it's easy to trace that evolution, if you've been here for long enough and paid attention. And I'm just the perv to document it.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I can explain that, I think.

Literotica is old; 25 years this year. We still have an Anal category, which is kind of silly; it made sense when it was still pretty taboo, but almost half of all adults have at least experimented with it. But it's been there forever, it's still relatively popular, although there's a lot more ATM and analingus there than there used to be, along with a bunch more pegging stories and stuff that previously would have gone in Gay Male or BDSM. Getting off track just a touch, but that's indicative of the sort of fetish drift you see across categories.

EC used to be about as vanilla as vanilla can get. It was, as described in a popular writers' guide "the missionary position of Literotica." And it is still more vanilla than most other categories, but there's plenty of light bondage, cheating spouses, anal, toys, group, and other stuff that "belongs" in other categories.

BDSM is a lot more intense than it used to be; there's stuff that's bordering on noncon in there, along with occasional heavy femdom (and maledom, but that's been there for a while), straight up painslut stuff, scarification, etc. There was SOME of that stuff there before, but it's become a lot more the norm. and the lighter "tee hee, tied up and tickled with a feather" or "ooooh, a riding crop, how kinky!" stuff is in EC or even Romance.

Not all of the categories are like this, but many of them kind of evolved over time to be "more" of what they were before. More extreme, more exclusive (in the "this stuff only!" sense), more structured, etc. But in Interracial and Loving Wives, where was there to go?

Well, Interracial went from "Romance and EC, except BBC/Orientalism tropes" to "My BBC bull cucks my husband and I love it" 90% of the time. People of different ethnicities getting together was already becoming less taboo when the site started, and now it's just a thing that happens. So, for example, my stories Meat Market and Cultural Exchanges, which would have comfortably fit into IR 25 year ago now "belong" in Romance. You still have a few of them show up in IR, but they're rare and usually score poorly.

Loving Wives' taboo was this: in the 90s, it was still "accepted" that men cheated more than women, and that they did it because they wanted to fuck more than women. So having a highly sexed female character with agency that wanted to step outside of her marriage? That was a kink. So was having a swapping or swinging relationship. But even those latter aren't that big of a deal anymore, nor is polyamory, although none of them are really mainstream. And there are still stories like that in LW; at a quick glance, half of the stories on there could go in Group if the characters weren't married. They're just about swinging or swapping or sharing. And "regular" cheating often goes into EC, too, with adulterous spouses of both sexes.

Those stories are very low-rated, partially because most of them are written poorly, but also for the same reason romances don't work in IR anymore: they aren't extreme enough in either direction. But unlike in IR, where there's a pretty uniform direction, there are two in LW. The first is cuckolding, often to the point of cruelty. What's kinkier than encouraging your wife to have sex with other men? Encouraging her to do it while locked in a cage and never getting any relief. Having a wife that's SO highly sexed that it actually makes the husband a non-sexual being, or a being only able to derive sexual pleasure by proxy.

The flipside, of which there are actually not that many, is where the wife cheats and there are consequences; this isn't a sexual fetish, but it is, as I've said before, another form of fantasy fulfilment: a cheating wife is punished, and the man (usually) gets on with his life with a newer, younger, more sexually available partner and he's beloved and honorable and everybody claps. But they're not actually that common; on the LW new stories right now, there are two or three of them, compared to like eight cuck ones. There's an ebb and flow, and right now, it's definitely an ebb.

LW is the only place on the site where one of the most popular flavors goes diametrically opposite of the original intent of the site, but it's easy to trace that evolution, if you've been here for long enough and paid attention. And I'm just the perv to document it.

People are strange. I had anilingus thrown at me in a LW comment as if it was pejorative .

That’s like saying I hate your story so much that I’m going to clamp your nipples. Me:

Em

 

[AwkwardlySet]

And that is exactly why categories shouldn't exist anymore. Authors often spend so much time debating in which category to put their story, since plenty of stories touch multiple categories, but those same stories are often not the mainstream for each of those categories, which leads to weird reception. Lit should just remove categories and focus on tags. This debate has been going on for a while, and even though we all know we are pissing up the wind with every single debate that concerns how Lit does certain things, it feels like these things need to be voiced occasionally if nothing to let out the frustration.

 

[EmilyMiller]

There should be a category devoted to consensual tentacle porn. I must lobby Laurel.

Em

 

[NoTalentHack]

There should be a category devoted to consensual tentacle porn. I must lobby Laurel.

Em

25 years from now, it’ll all be tentacucking and burn the sucker stories.

 

[Djmac1031]

People are strange. I had anilingus thrown at me in a LW comment as if it was pejorative .

That’s like saying I hate your story so much that I’m going to clamp your nipples. Me:

Em

And then there was that guy who went out of his way to comment on a story he didn't read, The Devil And Angel Em, because of the anal tag, because he hates "that crap."

So he didn't read it. But felt compelled to comment on it, telling us he didn't read it.

Because buttstuff.

I bet he one bombed it, though.

 

[EmilyMiller]

And then there was that guy who went out of his way to comment on a story he didn't read, The Devil And Angel Em, because of the anal tag, because he hates "that crap."

So he didn't read it. But felt compelled to comment on it, telling us he didn't read it.

Because buttstuff.

I bet he one bombed it, though.

I don’t get comments saying I didn’t read it but it sucked. I mean what the actual fuck?

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

In other news, I’ve started a non-con story, as promised…

Em

 

[Djmac1031]

In other news, I’ve started a non-con story, as promised…

Em

You had my curiosity.

But now you have my attention.

 

[EmilyMiller]

You had my curiosity.

But now you have my attention.

I’m not going to use the same trick twice. Even I’m not that shallow. But it’s not going to be… traditional.

Em

 

[SimonDoom]

And that is exactly why categories shouldn't exist anymore. Authors often spend so much time debating in which category to put their story, since plenty of stories touch multiple categories, but those same stories are often not the mainstream for each of those categories, which leads to weird reception. Lit should just remove categories and focus on tags. This debate has been going on for a while, and even though we all know we are pissing up the wind with every single debate that concerns how Lit does certain things, it feels like these things need to be voiced occasionally if nothing to let out the frustration.

What I think will happen eventually is that the site will adopt a more robust tagging system, which can be set up alongside of, or perhaps combined with, the category system. I don't think categories will ever go away completely because it would be incredibly difficult to undo 25 years of the site's history. But I agree that categorization will always have its limits and for some they can be very frustrating.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

What I think will happen eventually is that the site will adopt a more robust tagging system, which can be set up alongside of, or perhaps combined with, the category system. I don't think categories will ever go away completely because it would be incredibly difficult to undo 25 years of the site's history. But I agree that categorization will always have its limits and for some they can be very frustrating.

What you say is reasonable, but I really do think it is possible to switch fully to a tag-only system, where every author would need to put a minimum of, let's say 5 fixed tags on every new story. The old site would continue to coexist, and maybe over time, authors would retag their old stories and include them in the new system. The transition would likely last a full year, but its worth the trouble in my opinion.

 

[HordHolm]

What you say is reasonable, but I really do think it is possible to switch fully to a tag-only system, where every author would need to put a minimum of, let's say 5 fixed tags on every new story. The old site would continue to coexist, and maybe over time, authors would retag their old stories and include them in the new system. The transition would likely last a full year, but its worth the trouble in my opinion.

The problem is, though, that it will only take a fairly short amount of time before the tag-nazis replace the category-nazis, and some story tags will attract the "that doesn't belong with 'this' tag, it belongs with 'other' tag, and you are a simp" comments if a story doesn't conform to exactly what the commenter desires.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The problem is, though, that it will only take a fairly short amount of time before the tag-nazis replace the category-nazis, and some story tags will attract the "that doesn't belong with 'this' tag, it belongs with 'other' tag, and you are a simp" comments if a story doesn't conform to exactly what the commenter desires.

It could happen, but there would be far, far more tags than the number of categories we have now, so it would be possible to cover every taste and kink out there with a specific, nuanced tag. As it is now, in certain categories you can find the type of story you really like, but you can also find its exact opposite in the same category, which leads to many problems with story reception, authors changing their stories and kinks just so they would be better received and not punished by some readers etc.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The problem is, though, that it will only take a fairly short amount of time before the tag-nazis replace the category-nazis, and some story tags will attract the "that doesn't belong with 'this' tag, it belongs with 'other' tag, and you are a simp" comments if a story doesn't conform to exactly what the commenter desires.

The problem is, people suck, and not in a good way.

Em

 

[HordHolm]

The problem is, people suck, and not in a good way.

Em

Mostly they don't, it's just that the ones who do, do loudly.