The Great Republican Rejection of New Deal Reforms, by John Engelman

[JohnEngelman]

The Great Unraveling, by Paul Krugman makes an interesting juxtaposition with “The Leveling Wind,” by George Will, which I reviewed here:

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...s-and-bad-arguments-by-john-engelman.1578508/

The Great Unraveling is an anthology of columns and essays Professor Krugman wrote mainly from 2000 to 2003. The Leveling Wind is an anthology of columns and essays Will wrote from 1990 to 1994. A decade separates these essays. More decades separate them from the present. Nevertheless, they concern issues that remain relevant. Krugman’s anthology criticizes the Republican Party on economic issues. Will’s anthology criticizes the Democrat Party on social issues.

This is a dichotomy that favors the Republicans for four reasons. First, social issues are easier to understand. If you are mugged, robbed at gunpoint, or find that your home has been broken into and looted, you know that bad things have been done to you by bad people. You are angry. I have to admit that I sometimes had difficulty following Krugman’s explanations of how the Republican Party benefits rich people at my expense, although I know that it does.

Second, most Americans like and admire rich people. Many adhere to the fantasy that hard work will make them rich before they die.

Third, for most people most of the time loyalties of race, nation, and ethnicity are stronger than loyalties of class.

Fourth, when class is the issue Democrats win. When race is the issue Republicans win. Class has not really been the issue since the Great Depression of the 1930’s. Race became the issue during the late 1960’s, and has remained so with varying degrees of intensity since.

White blue collar workers and Southern whites were ardent supporters of President Roosevelt and his New Deal during the 1930’s. Most opposed the civil rights movement, which began with the Montgomery Bus Boycott in 1955.

White blue collar workers and Southern Whites may have learned to accept the civil rights legislation passed from 1964 to 1968, and the War on Poverty declared in 1964 if these had been followed by improvements in black performance and behavior, as early supporters of the civil rights movement predicted they would be. When they were followed by increases in black social pathology, Southern whites and white blue collar workers felt vindicated. They left the Democrat Party and began voting Republican.

In The Great Unraveling Krugman details how Republican commentators and politicians are trying to repeal the reforms of the New Deal, and restore the economic status quo of the 1920’s, and even the last quarter of the nineteenth century. He thinks they are doing this because the rich have become much richer. His explanation does not tell us why most lower income and lower middle income whites vote Republican. My explanation does. The fact that most whites vote Republican, including the majority of whites harmed by GOP economic policies, has given the Republican Donor Class the power to do what it has always wanted to do.

Blacks are much more likely to be crime victims than whites. Blacks would not benefit from defunding the police and reducing the prison population. They would benefit from a more effective criminal justice system.

The Democrat Party needs to dance with those who brought them to the dance. I am a white, male, heterosexual Christian. I am not rich. I agree with Krugman that Republican economic policies harm me. When the Democrat Party respected the social concerns of people like me, and when they advanced our interests, the Democrat Party dominated the United States.

 

[YDB95]

White blue collar workers and Southern Whites may have learned to accept the civil rights legislation passed from 1964 to 1968, and the War on Poverty declared in 1964 if these had been followed by improvements in black performance and behavior, as early supporters of the civil rights movement predicted they would be.

Baloney. The racists didn't care whether things got any better for Blacks or not. That...kind of goes hand in hand with being racist.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Baloney. The racists didn't care whether things got any better for Blacks or not. That...kind of goes hand in hand with being racist.

When I ask a white blue collar Republican why he votes Republican, he does not tell me that strong labor unions force manufacturers to move production to low wage, third world countries. He does not tell me that progressive taxation punishes success. He tells me about being the victim of black criminals. He tells me what it was like attending a black majority public school. He tells me about losing job opportunities to affirmative action.

 

[ll74]

When I ask a white blue collar Republican why he votes Republican, he does not tell me that strong labor unions force manufacturers to move production to low wage, third world countries. He does not tell me that progressive taxation punishes success. He tells me about being the victim of black criminals. He tells me what it was like attending a black majority public school. He tells me about losing job opportunities to affirmative action.

No, you have never done this and no, "he" doesn't tell you this.

 

[JohnEngelman]

No, you have never done this and no, "he" doesn't tell you this.

You are accusing me of lying. I would never accuse anyone of lying unless I could prove it, and you can't.

Nixon has been condemned for his "Southern Strategy." His Southern Strategy would not have worked if blacks responded to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the War on Poverty declared the same year by committing fewer crimes, and by having fewer illegitimate children. It worked because black rates of crime and illegitimacy rose.

For the record, I voted for Hubert Humphrey in 1968, and for George McGovern in 1972. For me the main issue was the War in Vietnam, which was unnecessarily prolonged by Nixon's election and his landslide re election. For most whites the main issue was the black ghetto riots from 1964 to 1968, and other increase in black social pathology since 1963. Because that has remained an important issue for most whites, Republicans continue to win elections. Republicans continue to win the votes of lower middle income whites who are harmed by Republican economic policies. They are also harmed by proximity to blacks.

Most whites know a few blacks they like. I do too. They are credits to their race. Unfortunately they are not typical of it.

It is not ignorant prejudice that causes most lower middle income whites to vote against their economic interests by voting Republican. It is the knowledge of what many blacks are really like. The civil rights legislation was forced on whites with extensive experience with Negroes by whites with little experience.

 

[ll74]

You are accusing me of lying. I would never accuse anyone of lying unless I could prove it, and you can't.

Nixon has been condemned for his "Southern Strategy." His Southern Strategy would not have worked if blacks responded to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the War on Poverty declared the same year by committing fewer crimes, and by having fewer illegitimate children. It worked because black rates of crime and illegitimacy rose.

For the record, I voted for Hubert Humphrey in 1968, and for George McGovern in 1972. For me the main issue was the War in Vietnam, which was unnecessarily prolonged by Nixon's election and his landslide re election. For most whites the main issue was the black ghetto riots from 1964 to 1968, and other increase in black social pathology since 1963. Because that has remained an important issue for most whites, Republicans continue to win elections. Republicans continue to win the votes of lower middle income whites who are harmed by Republican economic policies. They are also harmed by proximity to blacks.

Most whites know a few blacks they like. I do too. They are credits to their race. Unfortunately they are not typical of it.

It is not ignorant prejudice that causes most lower middle income whites to vote against their economic interests by voting Republican. It is the knowledge of what many blacks are really like. The civil rights legislation was forced on whites with extensive experience with Negroes by whites with little experience.

Yes, you're lying about talking to a "white blue collar worker" as well as their "responses". You did not do so and instead you're making up shit to support your racism.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Yes, you're lying about talking to a "white blue collar worker" as well as their "responses". You did not do so and instead you're making up shit to support your racism.

Ah yes, the R word again. And another lie.

You are impossible to debate with because you do not present debatable propositions that can be proved or disproved with facts documented by credible sources of data. Your opinions are based on irritable emotions.

Emotion comes from a more primitive part of the brain, a part we share with other mammals. Thinking is a more recent product of human evolution. Dogs get angry, but they are not good at solving problems.

 

[ll74]

Ah yes, the R word again. And another lie.

You are impossible to debate with because you do not present debatable propositions that can be proved or disproved with facts documented by credible sources of data. Your opinions are based on irritable emotions.

Emotion comes from a more primitive part of the brain, a part we share with other mammals. Thinking is a more recent product of human evolution. Dogs get angry, but they are not good at solving problems.

You're full of shit and you can't prove that the discussion took place. So yah, no credible source of data there.

But yes, you're still a racist. Are you accepting it today or making excuses for it again?

I'm impossible to debate because you don't have an argument and all I've ever done is call out your laziness with data collection and verification along with your blatant racism. Both of which are easily on display

And I haven't even gone into the misappropriation and cherry picking of data that someone else provided to you that you agree with.

 

[JohnEngelman]

You know that what I say is true.

 

[ll74]

You know that what I say is true.

Nothing you said is true. You being a racist has nothing to do with an argument.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Nothing you said is true. You being a racist has nothing to do with an argument.

By your definition, I am a racist. Watch me not care.

With no evidence at all you say that I am lying. If I am lying about the reason Nixon's Southern Strategy succeeded, why did it succeed? Was it irrational prejudice by white people who should have known that most blacks are as intelligent as most whites, and that most blacks are just as law abiding and monogamous as most whites?

 

[ll74]

By your definition, I am a racist. Watch me not care.

With no evidence at all you say that I am lying. If I am lying about the reason Nixon's Southern Strategy succeeded, why did it succeed? Was it irrational prejudice by white people who should have known that most blacks are as intelligent as most whites, and that most blacks are just as law abiding and monogamous as most whites?

We've been through this - by the definition of racist, you are racist. And for someone who doesn't care, you continue to bring it upas if you care.

You never talked to any white blue collar worker. I don't need evidence....I know it's bullshit. And instead of admitting it, you change the subject.

 

[YDB95]

When I ask a white blue collar Republican why he votes Republican, he does not tell me that strong labor unions force manufacturers to move production to low wage, third world countries. He does not tell me that progressive taxation punishes success. He tells me about being the victim of black criminals. He tells me what it was like attending a black majority public school. He tells me about losing job opportunities to affirmative action.

I don't know if you're lying about this or not, but here's what I do know:
1. There just are not that many white people who attended a black majority public school. It's called de facto segregation and redlining.
2. If your real-life persona is anything like your online one, probably the only people who will engage you in conversation - on this topic at least - are your fellow racists. So if you are telling the truth here, that's why. Everyone else will nod politely and get out of Dodge at best, or call you the racist you are at worst (or best, depending on one's perspective).
3. People who think they "lost job opportunities to affirmative action" almost certainly were no better qualified than the person who did get the job. Contrary to popular belief, it does not mean handing out opportunities to people who aren't qualified for them. It's about recognizing the disadvantages they've had to overcome to get as qualified as they are.
4. Confirmation bias is real, and it means people like you tend to see "proof" of your views when it's not really there.

Nixon has been condemned for his "Southern Strategy." His Southern Strategy would not have worked if blacks responded to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the War on Poverty declared the same year by committing fewer crimes, and by having fewer illegitimate children. It worked because black rates of crime and illegitimacy rose.

Wrong. Logically, this means if Black Americans had somehow miraculously overcome 350 years of abuse in three years, racist white voters would have turned enlightened and rejected appeals to their true feelings. The "then" is just as implausible as the "if" there.

For the record, I voted for Hubert Humphrey in 1968, and for George McGovern in 1972. For me the main issue was the War in Vietnam, which was unnecessarily prolonged by Nixon's election and his landslide re election. For most whites the main issue was the black ghetto riots from 1964 to 1968, and other increase in black social pathology since 1963.

Again, that implies that they wouldn't have harbored any resentment if Blacks had somehow pretended history prior to 1964 had never happened (something they literally had no chance of doing even if they wanted to, because whites weren't about to do that). That assumption is breathakingly ignorant.

Because that has remained an important issue for most whites, Republicans continue to win elections. Republicans continue to win the votes of lower middle income whites who are harmed by Republican economic policies. They are also harmed by proximity to blacks.

Well, no, they think they are harmed by proximity to Blacks. You yourself have posted statistics showing most violent crime is intraracial. Now as ever, poor whites want to feel superior to Blacks so at least they're not at the bottom of the totem pole. That is what Republicans have been appealing to since 1968.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I don't know if you're lying about this or not, but here's what I do know:
1. There just are not that many white people who attended a black majority public school. It's called de facto segregation and redlining.
2. If your real-life persona is anything like your online one, probably the only people who will engage you in conversation - on this topic at least - are your fellow racists. So if you are telling the truth here, that's why. Everyone else will nod politely and get out of Dodge at best, or call you the racist you are at worst (or best, depending on one's perspective).
3. People who think they "lost job opportunities to affirmative action" almost certainly were no better qualified than the person who did get the job. Contrary to popular belief, it does not mean handing out opportunities to people who aren't qualified for them. It's about recognizing the disadvantages they've had to overcome to get as qualified as they are.
4. Confirmation bias is real, and it means people like you tend to see "proof" of your views when it's not really there.

Black majority public schools, or even public schools with large black minorities in them are dangerous places where little learning takes place. Why was there so much resistance to school integration in Southern states, where many school districts had large black populations? Why was there so much resistance to forced school busing? Why do affluent whites living close to black neighborhoods send their children to white private schools?

I cannot say that I have lost job opportunities to affirmative action. As a computer programmer I have worked with beneficiaries of affirmative action. They were not doing their jobs. The average black IQ is 85. The average white IQ is 100. If If an employer has to achieve anything close to equal results, the employer has to lower standards for blacks.

In addition to talking to whites who have had bad experiences with blacks, I am a registered Democrat. I have only voted for two Republicans in my life.

Attributing my opinions to what you think my personality is is an example of the ad hominem fallacy.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Wrong. Logically, this means if Black Americans had somehow miraculously overcome 350 years of abuse in three years, racist white voters would have turned enlightened and rejected appeals to their true feelings. The "then" is just as implausible as the "if" there.

Jews and Orientals faced prejudice and discrimination when they immigrated to the United States. Most were poor. Because most of them performed and behaved well most currently are more prosperous than most white Gentiles.

Prejudice is based on previous experience. Stereotypes are over generalizations of what is really true. There is no stereotype of a fat Chinese woman on welfare with five illegitimate children by five different men. There is no stereotype of a stupid lazy Jewish man with several illegitimate children he does nothing to support, and several felony convictions. Those who dislike Orientals and Jews resent them for their success and their prosperity.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I don't know if you're lying about this or not, but here's what I do know: 1. There just are not that many white people who attended a black majority public school. It's called de facto segregation and redlining.

Woke whites are likely to have lived, gone to school, and worked with few blacks. Those few they have known have probably been exceptional, or they occupied subordinate positions without resentment.

 

[JohnEngelman]

YDB95, and ll74, if you genuinely believe that blacks are as benign as you claim, work as a substitute teacher in several black majority schools, or talk to people who have. Move to a black neighborhood. Even Jesse Jackson has said:




If you think poverty explains black social pathology, live with poor Orientals.

My first job as a computer programmer was in downtown San Jose, California. This was in the early 1980's when the downtown area of San Jose was engulfed by Vietnamese war refugees. Most were desperately poor. They were also good people. I would often work until 10:00 pm and walk three miles through what was becoming Little Saigon to get home. I was perfectly safe. If you think it is safe to walk through a black neighborhood that late and be safe, it is you who are ignorant.

Vietnamese teenagers had alibis for social pathology. They had spent their lives in war zones and refugee camps. They did not need alibis. They did not spend their days harassing their teachers. They tried to learn, although many had difficulty understanding English. They did not spend their nights getting into trouble. They did their homework.

I am well aware that there are decent blacks. I am also aware of different average differences between the races.

Once I asked a young black man, "If you are alone in a city after dark, and four young men are walking in your direction, will you feel safer if they are white or black?"

He answered, "I would feel safer if they are white, a lot safer. Even in the South I will feel safer. I think most blacks feel the same way I do."

Another young black man I talked to told me, "A [derogatory n word] will kill you for a ten dollar bill. When I walk down the street if I see [derogatory n word] up the street, I cross the street."

In a column I read a black man wrote, "I am more afraid of other black men than I am of the Ku Klux Klan."

 

[YDB95]

Black majority public schools, or even public schools with large black minorities in them are dangerous places where little learning takes place.

The same is true of mostly white schools in poor neighborhoods. I know, I went to one for my first two years of high school (and my new school felt like getting out of prison). But that's neither here nor there with respect to racism or how capable this or that race is. It's much more an issue of how we as a society have undervalued education. And that is all beside the point as far as your claim that you've had white people complain to you about their experience attending a majority Black high school. Again, there just aren't very many whites out there who have that experience.

Why was there so much resistance to school integration in Southern states, where many school districts had large black populations?

Hate. Bigotry. A desperate need to feel there was someone they could look down on.

Why was there so much resistance to forced school busing?

See above.

Why do affluent whites living close to black neighborhoods send their children to white private schools?

Because private schools are generally a better option no matter what color you are, and because the aftereffects of Jim Crow and redlining have led to most urban public schools being especially bad through no fault of the people who live there.

Attributing my opinions to what you think my personality is is an example of the ad hominem fallacy.

I made a point of saying I don't know what your real life personality is like. That's why I said if it's anything like your online personality.

Woke whites are likely to have lived, gone to school, and worked with few blacks.

I probably meet your definition of "woke" and I've worked and studied with plenty of Blacks.

Those few they have known have probably been exceptional, or they occupied subordinate positions without resentment.

I don't see how you would know.

If you think poverty explains black social pathology, live with poor Orientals.

I married a Filipina. I know my share about poor Asians.

My first job as a computer programmer was in downtown San Jose, California. This was in the early 1980's when the downtown area of San Jose was engulfed by Vietnamese war refugees. Most were desperately poor. They were also good people. I would often work until 10:00 pm and walk three miles through what was becoming Little Saigon to get home. I was perfectly safe. If you think it is safe to walk through a black neighborhood that late and be safe, it is you who are ignorant.

This has more to do with white- and male privilege than anything else.

 

[JohnEngelman]

This has more to do with white- and male privilege than anything else.

What does white and male privilege have to do with the differences in safety between Vietnamese and black neighborhoods?

 

[JohnEngelman]

Hate. Bigotry. A desperate need to feel there was someone they could look down on.

Jews and Orientals (AKA East Asians) faced hate and bigotry and prevailed.

Jews were persecuted for nearly two thousand years. This culminated in the Holocaust. Today Jews dominate positions requiring superior intelligence.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I probably meet your definition of "woke" and I've worked and studied with plenty of Blacks.

I married a Filipina. I know my share about poor Asians.

Try walking through a black neighborhood on a regular basis starting at 10:00 pm.

Because you married a Filipina you know that they are nice people What I mean by "Oriental" are Chinese and nations that learned civilization from China. These are Korea, Japan, and Vietnam. I have always liked Orientals.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I made a point of saying I don't know what your real life personality is like. That's why I said if it's anything like your online personality.

If you have read many of my posts, you know that I discuss quite a few different subjects with a reasonable degree of knowledge. I also avoid the use of obscene words, insults, and name calling, even when they are used against me by ll74.

I object to the use of the word "racist" because calling someone a racist is not an effort to advance the discussion we need to have; it is an effort to suppress that discussion.

Anyone with extensive experience with the three major races knows that they differ significantly in average intelligence and behavior. That is what we need to be talking about. Those who attribute black social pathology to white racism need to explain why black rates of crime and illegitimacy have become higher since 1963.

Those who have read many of my posts know that I have a high opinion of Jews and Orientals. When others criticize them I do not respond with obscene words, insults, and name calling. I draw attention to their intelligence, the success, and their prosperity, as well as their low rates of crime and illegitimacy.

 

[YDB95]

If you have read many of my posts, you know that I discuss quite a few different subjects with a reasonable degree of knowledge.

I've read plenty of your posts, and I get that you think you're very knowledgeable on racial issues. The key word there being think.

I also avoid the use of obscene words, insults, and name calling, even when they are used against me by ll74.

Yes, you are VERY capable in the right-wing art form of saying extremely inflammatory things in very calm, polite language. Which is great from a PR point of view, but it doesn't make you any less of a racist.

I object to the use of the word "racist" because calling someone a racist is not an effort to advance the discussion we need to have; it is an effort to suppress that discussion.

Exactly why do we "need to have" a discussion about discredited theories that Blacks are fundamentally less intelligent than whites? Not to mention those theories are pretty much the very definition of racist.

Those who attribute black social pathology to white racism need to explain why black rates of crime and illegitimacy have become higher since 1963.

They haven't, relative to whites. What has changed is that we've removed the stigma associated with illegitimacy. I've provided cites on this before, which you ignored if you read them at all.

Those who have read many of my posts know that I have a high opinion of Jews and Orientals.

You might try asking Jews and Asians what they think about those positive stereotypes. (Hint: your high opinion will NOT be mutual.)

 

[SubzeroGirl]

Your wife gets a lot of headaches doesn’t she?