Incest vs Romance vs Mature

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Yes, I was about to say something very similar. I can't comment what kind of scores the story might get in either incest or mature but one thing that we do know is traffic. Ask yourself what would you rather have.

2000 views, 10 votes, 1 or 2 comments in mature

50000 views, 100 votes, a dozen comments in incest

Safe to say that the reactions would be somewhere in that ballpark. The decisions is up to the author.

Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

He will get a lot of views... from people who, according to everybody and their grandmothers who actually post in that category, won't appreciate a Step-setting.

So, he will get lots of low votes. That, in turn, will lead to fewer views, because there's a sizable chunk of people who don't have the time to read all the dozens of submissions in that category every day, so they'll limit themselves to the stories with high scores.

...right?

 

[Euphony]

I'm going to publish in Category B every time. I don't understand NOT doing that. I want to connect with people who like the story, and from this data I'm going to get 10 times as many people who do if I publish in Category B. I don't understand choosing A to avoid offending or disappointing people.

As some categories are goliaths in eyeballs v. others, why wouldn't most following this concept flood the eyeballs categories with narratives only cursory touching on the category topic?

If raw numbers is your concern and not time investment of any particular reader (or the whole of them other than how many"likes" your story can generate off eyes b/c they can check out whenever) how do we not end up orphaning even MORE categories?

 

[SimonDoom]

As some categories are goliaths in eyeballs v. others, why wouldn't most following this concept flood the eyeballs categories with narratives only cursory touching on the category topic?

If raw numbers is your concern and not time investment of any particular reader (or the whole of them other than how many"likes" your story can generate off eyes b/c they can check out whenever) how do we not end up orphaning even MORE categories?

This misunderstands what I am advocating. My hypothetical assumes that there are MORE readers looking for my story in Category B than in Category A. More readers who will like it. I'm not talking about just seeking the maximum number of raw clicks. My goal is to find the right audience. But I think too many authors in this forum, in seeking the "right" audience, spend way too much time trying to avoid those who they think will not like a story and not enough time trying to find those who will. There's an undue element of risk avoidance, and of concentrating on whatever category will yield one the highest score. I think that's misguided.

 

[RejectReality]

No one is suggesting that it go into sci-fi or toys or gay male. This story clearly qualifies for incest as it also qualifies for mature I'm sure even romance. It is a case of category overlap. In that sense getting views is a totally valid factor in choice.

I disagree with your stance. If one writes to please a category, then there are some stories that just won't get written because they don't tick all the boxes of any one particular category. Categories are restrictive and limiting in that way, sometimes very restrictive. I write the story that is in me wanting to get out. Then I decide where to post it. In category A some will like and some will not. In category B and category C same thing. In category D perhaps very few will not like it, but nobody reads category D. I never set out to specifically write for D so to hell with D. I'll just pick A B or C that gets me the most hits so long as my story is appropriate for the category.

It's not about writing to please the category either. It's about categorizing a completed work appropriately.

I don't believe in putting work in front of an audience that will not appreciate it. I believe even less in putting work in front of an audience that will hate it, regardless of what my personal definition or the dictionary definition says is technically correct.

Any suggestions I make will aim for placing the content in front of the most appreciative audience, and only when all other things are equal will I suggest going for the numbers. I personally find chasing views just as off-putting as chasing score.

 

[Euphony]

This misunderstands what I am advocating. My hypothetical assumes that there are MORE readers looking for my story in Category B than in Category A. More readers who will like it. I'm not talking about just seeking the maximum number of raw clicks. My goal is to find the right audience. But I think too many authors in this forum, in seeking the "right" audience, spend way too much time trying to avoid those who they think will not like a story and not enough time trying to find those who will. There's an undue element of risk avoidance, and of concentrating on whatever category will yield one the highest score. I think that's misguided.

Thank you for your clarification.

What I still quibble with, unless I'm totally misunderstanding, is bycatch mentality.



Catch as many sushi quality tuna. "Your specific readers" (metric can be votes/comments/general perception of "liked", whatever you are trying to capture)

One fishing ground will have more (raw number of) tuna but is also populated with more species you have no need for and will toss overboard (with negative consequences but our stances read we can't possible debate to a consensus on the level of that)

The other fishing ground will net less (raw numbers of) your prefered catch, but you snag less seals, sharks, dolphins, etc. biodiversity and those creatures benefit from, admittedly, your profit sacrifice.

I don't want to put words in RR's mouth but I do think he and I are far more concerned with category readership on the whole whereas you seem to be most concerned about your specific species of tuna and where you net the most. Your viewpoint is only strengthened by the fact that there are loud minority examples of impossible to please readership no matter what you do and some authors who have destroyed their creative "livelihood" avoiding catching even a singular otter in their net.

Reader consideration doesn't have to be on either extreme end of the spectrum.

 

[RejectReality]

A large number of these questions also come from new authors, and categorizing something that will put off readers early on can have severe detrimental effects on that author going forward.

 

[StillStunned]

50000 views, 100 votes, a dozen comments in incest

This is a bit conservative, I'd say. My four stories in I/T:

100k views, 1829 votes
47k views, 653 votes
60k views, 870 votes
20k views, 253 votes

 

[Paul_Chance]

Sometimes the I/T crowd can even get upset about stories involving blood relatives. I have a couple of first cousin stories, and I have gotten numerous "Yiu know, fist cousins can marry in this state or that country so it isn' t real incest." Type Comments.

That said,



PInky here nailed it IMO. Its a Taboo story for sure, and the category is Incest & Taboo. You may lose a couple votes with the 'step doesnt count' crowd, but I think you will lose a whole lot more coming close to Incest in other categories.

I also think a well-crafted fluent story will trump all the nit pickers. Label and tag the shit out of it, and dont take the critics too seriiusly.

This is where I would land as well. Though technically not incest, it would still be a taboo relationship, and so I would drop it in the I/T category.

 

[Euphony]

A large number of these questions also come from new authors, and categorizing something that will put off readers early on can have severe detrimental effects on that author going forward.

With the human brain's proclivity to hold on to negativity even in the face of significant positivity, I would think it mostly impossible to outrun even a handful of dedicated negatives with a flood of positives.

Also why we see early authors very much stick to category scripts and I can't fault them in the slightest. (but I do wish likely more fulfilling creativity for them)

 

[RejectReality]

This is where I would land as well. Though technically not incest, it would still be a taboo relationship, and so I would drop it in the I/T category.

Taboo needs to be removed from that category heading. It's entirely too broad, utterly outside the readership preferences of the category in many cases, and thus misleading to anyone who doesn't do their research.

I've got one where a guy gets invited over to his fuck-buddy's house for a quickie, but it gets interrupted by a call for her to come in to work. As he's leaving, her mother propositions him. Absolutely taboo, but not even remotely appropriate for the incest category.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

He will get a lot of views... from people who, according to everybody and their grandmothers who actually post in that category, won't appreciate a Step-setting.

So, he will get lots of low votes. That, in turn, will lead to fewer views, because there's a sizable chunk of people who don't have the time to read all the dozens of submissions in that category every day, so they'll limit themselves to the stories with high scores.

...right?

Perhaps you are addressing only that isolated post and not my full stance throughout the thread. I understand that and I will further explain. Clearly this step-mom-son story qualifies for incest. I would not antagonize a category with something that didn't really belong or barely scraped to qualify for the category. Step-cest is clearly within the bounds of the category. Certainly there are many incest readers who only want blood-cest (if that's a term). The author can't help that.

Since the site only has 32 categories and has no specific step-cest category, I would not take a kink so "squicky" as incest to another category just to please the blood relations crowd. Least squick rule applies. That is my original argument.

But furthermore, as for posting something that won't please all in the category I have maintained throughout the thread (if not in that isolated post) that such a story should be appropriately tagged and advertised as step. If blood-cest readers insist on still clicking and downvoting a step story, personally I don't care. I'd much rather have 100k views in incest of which 75k were into my step story than to get 10k views in mature where 7.5k (or even 8 or 9k) were into it.

I would not let vindictive or otherwise judgmental readers dictate how I write the story nor where I publish it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Thank you for your clarification.

What I still quibble with, unless I'm totally misunderstanding, is bycatch mentality.

View attachment 2299506

Catch as many sushi quality tuna. "Your specific readers" (metric can be votes/comments/general perception of "liked", whatever you are trying to capture)

One fishing ground will have more (raw number of) tuna but is also populated with more species you have no need for and will toss overboard (with negative consequences but our stances read we can't possible debate to a consensus on the level of that)

This is not a bad analogy, and I definitely subscribe to the "widest net" philosophy.

Humans are not dolphins and sharks. If they are attentive and read how the site works, they can avoid my net. If they get snared by my net, they can escape it by not reading the story. Very simple. No harm no foul. It's not analogous to the harm of dead dolphins.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Taboo needs to be removed from that category heading. It's entirely too broad, utterly outside the readership preferences of the category in many cases, and thus misleading to anyone who doesn't do their research.

Absolutely! I've said this before. A doctor/patient or student/teacher story is very much taboo, yet it it would probably get moved by Laurel if you tried to post it in taboo, and if it happened to get in in would get pummeled with hate.

And interracial is taboo, yet it gets its own category. So is mature, same deal. Even BDSM could be argued to be taboo. Have you any idea how many people think that taboo = incest and only incest?

It is my opinion that any category that grows so large in readership could be split, especially when that readership is split in it's expectations.

Incest should be split into something like:
mom/son
bro/sis
step-cest
extended family
general family fun (for orgies say)
non-incest taboo

Likewise, LW should be split into something like:
Hotwives and swingers
Cheating
Cuckolding/Cuckqueaning
BtB
Reconciliation

On the other hand we could split a category like Sci-Fi and Fantasy apart, but then it is quite a small category already and it's 'friendly' there. Same with Toys and Masturbation.

 

[RejectReality]

Absolutely! I've said this before. A doctor/patient or student/teacher story is very much taboo, yet it it would probably get moved by Laurel if you tried to post it in taboo, and if it happened to get in in would get pummeled with hate.

In the story I mentioned, the mom was a former substitute teacher as well. I pulled a two-for. Leaned into the teacher/student thing as well. Almost a three-for, because while they define themselves as fuck-buddies, the couple haven't been with anyone else in ages. The mother even points that out. So it's a demi-cheating story as well. Plus, I strongly imply that he's going to come back and pick up where he left off with the daughter when she gets home from work at the mother's urging.

That story is absolutely riddled with taboos. They all meshed well together, because it's been a high-performer everywhere it was posted.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Taboo needs to be removed from that category heading. It's entirely too broad, utterly outside the readership preferences of the category in many cases, and thus misleading to anyone who doesn't do their research.

I've got one where a guy gets invited over to his fuck-buddy's house for a quickie, but it gets interrupted by a call for her to come in to work. As he's leaving, her mother propositions him. Absolutely taboo, but not even remotely appropriate for the incest category.

If anything, Taboo should probably be it's own catagory, or put with Fetish. Those two things go hand in hand.

 

[Paul_Chance]

"Dear Santa: Please split the incest and taboo categories. And bring me a flying pig, so I can zoom around between the two categories."

 

[Euphony]

This is not a bad analogy, and I definitely subscribe to the "widest net" philosophy.

Humans are not dolphins and sharks. If they are attentive and read how the site works, they can avoid my net. If they get snared by my net, they can escape it by not reading the story. Very simple. No harm no foul. It's not analogous to the harm of dead dolphins.

I honestly think you are more reader considerate/category appropriateness in practice than maybe your context alludes. (and it is unfair to expect you to it out in flesh out every forum post, which is why I always seek clarification.) You inherently self police.

Newbies don't have that in built ability and can fall into bad habit.
And others are looking for any gray area to seize on.
That's why I went for further clarity.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

As far as the op goes; it might not be Incest, but it is Taboo, and there are people who'll read it, those who prefer or don't care that they aren't blood related. We've seen people here defend step relations. If the stepmom schtick ain't played up... if his dad divorces her, she isn't really his stepmom anymore, anyway, it might float in mature.

 

[SimonDoom]

I honestly think you are more reader considerate/category appropriateness in practice than maybe your context alludes. (and it is unfair to expect you to it out in flesh out every forum post, which is why I always seek clarification.) You inherently self police.

Newbies don't have that in built ability and can fall into bad habit.
And others are looking for any gray area to seize on.
That's why I went for further clarity.

I read a lot about this site, I read the forums, I read the how to guides, I've read all the site rules and content guidelines multiple times, so, yes, my actual decision-making process is somewhat more subtle than it may seem in this forum.

But I chafe a bit at the care and feeding we are supposed to give newbies. As a newbie, I jumped into the deep end of the pool with my third story, BTB, Incorporated, a spoof on some Loving Wives genres. I knew I was taking a risk, but I wasn't quite prepared for the reception. I received some savage comments, and to this day it's my lowest-rated story. But I also got a lot of good comments, and as of today it's had over 89,000 views and 57 favorites. Would I have done it differently? No. It was a good experience. There's way too much fretting in this forum about reader reception. Just publish the damn story, find the readers who like what you do, and ignore the rest as noise. That's what I do, and it works.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm not so sure about that. As others have said, there are many things seen as societal taboos-for example sleeping with your best friend's mother is a popular trope, and something that outside of fantasy would be seen as taboo-however, over the years in the porn and erotica industries the word taboo has become all but exclusive to the meaning of family sex.

Fair? Maybe not, but it is what it is. I don't think the I/T category would lose anything if the word was dropped, but I don't think dropping it helps readers know any more or less what they're getting into because if you're a regular reader of smut and/or viewer of porn, then odds are you know my first point.

But this is an empty debate because nothing is going to change here.

Sure, I can agree with all that but look at it this way.

If I would like to find a non-incest taboo story (say teacher/student), it will be extremely difficult to find it in that huge pool of incest. Likewise, if I am writing that non-incest taboo story, my choice is to have it lost in a sea of incest, or lost in the sea of obscurity that is EC.

I'm not worried about pleasing the incest crowd. They have their run of the site as it is. The non-incest taboo crowd has nowehere to go. Why can't they have a category?

 

[Euphony]

But I chafe a bit at the care and feeding we are supposed to give newbies. As a newbie, I jumped into the deep end of the pool with my third story, BTB, Incorporated, a spoof on some Loving Wives genres. I knew I was taking a risk, but I wasn't quite prepared for the reception. I received some savage comments, and to this day it's my lowest-rated story. But I also got a lot of good comments, and as of today it's had over 89,000 views and 57 favorites. Would I have done it differently? No. It was a good experience.

With your life experience and the set of tools you have, it was a good experience, maybe even one of the best ways, for your personal configuration, to see you through the challenge.
But a little more compassion to see other authors (and their unique configurations) is pretty trivial to engender.

There's way too much fretting in this forum about reader reception.

. But society/culture as a whole is acting as a feeder so I can't be but so surprised.

My wish is others could slave themselves to the creativity even 1/2 as much as scoring. Creativity pays you back exponentially comparatively. (and the data noise here makes it dangerous to place any serious faith in other than mere curiosity/surveying your surroundings.)

Just publish the damn story, find the readers who like what you do, and ignore the rest as noise. That's what I do, and it works.

Again, all reasonable but only when employed by a, by default, reasonable person.

Some of the worst people in the AH and Lit use very similar language to justify their shit behavior.

Words gain meaning from their context. (including the speaker) but too many refuse to consider actual context these days and operate on cognitive bias alone.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I read a lot about this site, I read the forums, I read the how to guides, I've read all the site rules and content guidelines multiple times, so, yes, my actual decision-making process is somewhat more subtle than it may seem in this forum.

But I chafe a bit at the care and feeding we are supposed to give newbies. As a newbie, I jumped into the deep end of the pool with my third story, BTB, Incorporated, a spoof on some Loving Wives genres. I knew I was taking a risk, but I wasn't quite prepared for the reception. I received some savage comments, and to this day it's my lowest-rated story. But I also got a lot of good comments, and as of today it's had over 89,000 views and 57 favorites. Would I have done it differently? No. It was a good experience. There's way too much fretting in this forum about reader reception. Just publish the damn story, find the readers who like what you do, and ignore the rest as noise. That's what I do, and it works.

To be fair on newbies, you were an atypical newbie, doing that preliminary homework. It's abundantly clear that most newbies (those who wander in here at least) don't do that, and most have far less psychological resilience than you do.

You're making a bit of a mistake using yourself as baseline for human behaviour, because, let's face it, you can cope with marshmallows. There are many who can't, who get spooked easily.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

To be fair on newbies, you were an atypical newbie, doing that preliminary homework. It's abundantly clear that most newbies (those who wander in here at least) don't do that, and most have far less psychological resilience than you do.

You're making a bit of a mistake using yourself as baseline for human behaviour, because, let's face it, you can cope with marshmallows. There are many who can't, who get spooked easily.

We're getting a bit off topic but this is an interesting grey area isn't it?

I'm all for providing a comforting and welcoming experience for both readers and authors newbie or not, but at what point do we draw the line between fostering that welcoming atmosphere and holding people's hands? At some point an author has to stand on his or her own two feet and face the critics no matter how insightful, judgmental or hateful. I'm not saying that you are arguing the opposite at all, but just being sure to point out that it is the slope that the debate stands on.

Someone said something bad about my story! Welcome to being an author. (shrug)

I mean it's a shame that people would be scared away from their creativity but what sorts of actual details would you propose to shelter author's feelings that would not create a culture of butthurt authors constantly running to the admin to do their duty against every little downvote or negative comment?

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'm all for providing a comforting and welcoming experience for both readers and authors newbie or not, but at what point do we draw the line between fostering that welcoming atmosphere and holding people's hands? At some point an author has to stand on his or her own two feet and face the critics no matter how insightful, judgmental or hateful. I'm not saying that you are arguing the opposite at all, but just being sure to point out that it is the slope that the debate stands on.

Someone said something bad about my story! Welcome to being an author. (shrug)

That's true, but I think you can have a bit of sensitivity as to where an OP stands in the spectrum of delicate snowflake versus I'm so tough I eat steel for breakfast.

I think it's always very obvious when a fragile, timid soul wanders in with a question they're terrified of even asking, versus those occasions when some swaggering look-at-me bullshit artist wanders by with their ignorance on display like a pair of dog's balls. And adjust your response accordingly.

 

[SimonDoom]

That's true, but I think you can have a bit of sensitivity as to where an OP stands in the spectrum of delicate snowflake versus I'm so tough I eat steel for breakfast.

I think it's always very obvious when a fragile, timid soul wanders in with a question they're terrified of even asking, versus those occasions when some swaggering look-at-me bullshit artist wanders by with their ignorance on display like a pair of dog's balls. And adjust your response accordingly.

I couldn't tell where the OP stood on that spectrum from the initial post. I thought it seemed like a perfectly reasonable question and I gave my honest answer, based on years of experience, tons of analysis of these questions, and a fair degree of success at doing things my way. I did so without any preconception about whether the OP was a snowflake. Didn't seem like it to me.

I'm not so concerned with the newbies as I am with the more experienced folks continuing to beat the dream that one should try to avoid adverse reactions at all cost. I think that's completely, utterly wrong. I don't feel it's insensitive to say so. I think the sort of coaching newbies get on these issues just heightens unnecessary sensitivities and creates what I believe is a wrong-headed attitude that avoiding negative reactions is the norm and the goal. To a significant degree, having a thick skin is a learned trait. I think it's a very helpful one for a writer to have. I offer that perspective as an alternative to the view that I feel many others espouse. People can choose what they want to do.