Here's a theory: categories hinder more than help

[Altissimus]

I guess starting a debate with this title may be an exercise in futile optimism, as the chances of general accord are about as small as the chances of affecting change, but... in the hope that both the previous presumptions are wrong, here's something to consider.

The categories in Lit are designed to facilitate ease of finding a story for the random visitors that come to the site. That is, to my mind, their sole purpose. It's a purpose that can be achieved in a myriad of other ways - AO3, for example, almost-exclusively uses tags - and Lit already has this capability. So, if the categories are there for a purpose that can be achieved in other ways, ways that already exist, why have them?

That's not a reason to do away with them, just an observation that they're not necessary.

The reason, to my mind, to do away with categories is that they've evolved into something they are not meant to be. Expectations are set in the categories with readers going to them for specific tropes, and that's not good for anyone, let alone creativity and diversity. (We don't want to stifle creativity and diversity, do we?)

Here's a broad example of what I'm talking about:

• LW - BTB only.
• Romance - HEA only.
• BDSM - D/s relationships only.
• EC - no one knows what goes here
• Fetish - too broad to be meaningful
• Incest/Taboo - use of 'step' is instantly harmful
• Anal - why?
• NC/R - two separate things
• Scifi/fantasy - very little traffic, relatively speaking
• Mind Control - basically Noncon
• ...etc

This might be overly-simplistic, yet it seems to have an undeniable grain (more than a grain) of truth to it.

In conclusion, there's no real reason to keep the categories (other than 'tradition', the nemesis of all positive change) and there's plenty of reasons to remove them.

Thoughts?

 

[SeraphNocturne]

 

[MediocreAuthor]

"For everything gained, something is lost."

Categories is a flawed system, but no perfect system exists.

Readers are free to use tags to bypass categories if they're unhappy with category restrictions.

 

[Bamagan]

I've already expressed support for getting rid of them, or treating most of them as some kind of top-level tag. But like M says above, I have long ignored most of them as a reader in favor of doing searches for whatever I'm in the mood for. So for me it's a big shrug, ultimately.

 

[Euphony]

"For everything gained, something is lost."

Categories is a flawed system, but no perfect system exists.

Readers are free to use tags to bypass categories if they're unhappy with category restrictions.

 

[33RPMVinylPants]

Problem is that some of the tags refer to format (Novels, Poems), some of the tags refer to genre (Romance, Sci-fi), and some of the tags refer to specific fetishes.

I think there's value in the categories relating to format and genre, but tags works better for fetishes for the simple reason that you can use more than one tag at a time, but are limited to a single category.

 

[samhasstories]

As a writer, sure. As a reader, I disagree. It's similar to genres in a bookstore. If I want dragons or robots or cowboys or soul-crushing human tragedy, I know where to go. Here, if i want to read about someone walking through town naked, or sleeping with their sister, I know where to go (or, maybe just as important, where not to go if I don't want that). And commercial genres come with all the same tropey pitfalls you've described.

Maybe it's worthwhile to not write for category. In my non-erotica life I don't write for genre - if I were to ever publish, that's the publisher's problem. In this case the writer does have to decide, but that's the joy of what is essentially self-publishing. You gotta do your own marketing and classification.

 

[AchtungNight]

I only use the category system because Lit demands it. My stories are actually easy to fit in several different categories.

Examples-

“Fear, Lust, and Vanity” features Lesbian Group Sex between characters based on Celebrities.

“Ruleskirter” is a Romance featuring an Erotic Coupling with Sci-fi and Fantasy elements including references to Don Quixote, Dungeons & Dragons, and celebrities mentioned in cameo. There is also a professed Faerie Alien Hybrid character.

“Beijing Streakers” is a video game Fanfic featuring characters based on Celebrity Olympic athletes, Group Sex, Lesbian and Straight Erotic Couplings, Sibling Incest, Exhibitionism, Anal Sex, and a big dick Fetish. A Crossdresser is featured as a character, though he does not wear traditionally female attire on screen.

“The Sisters Next Door” is about Incestuous Lesbian Voyeurs.

“Pool Hustle” has the female main characters from the above story enjoy Group Sex and Anal Sex with one of their lucky guy friends.

It is sometimes difficult for me to pick categories.

My Loving Wives story “Fire Woman” was bombed by trolls and I do not want to post there again. I think most of them were expecting BTB stuff and the light indulgences I gave them by punishing my Erotic Horror femme fatale Courtney Crowe as well as showing FMC Emily suffering in a repressive relationship along with the male characters feeling angst were not enough. Even punishing a bastard named Warner offscreen with an emotional distress lawsuit was not enough. Fine- you can’t downvote my stories now and your negative reviews will be deleted. Hope you’re happy now, trolls.

 

[Altissimus]

Readers are free to use tags to bypass categories if they're unhappy with category restrictions.

Which is great for readers, but doesn't solve the problem for writers.

The only writer that benefits from the current model is one who writes stories that fit tidily into the boxes I gave examples of in my post. If, for example, you write LW that isn't BTB, or Romance that isn't HEA, you're punished by the expectation of those categories. That's not right, is it? And what about if you dare to write something that spans more than one category? How often does this forum get asked the 'which category' question? Hell, I've asked it myself at least twice.

Lit isn't just for the readers. I wouldn't even say it was primarily for the readers. At the risk of stating the bloody obvious, there wouldn't be any readers without the writers (and equally, little point writing without the readers). It's a mistake, IMO, to punish one group at the expense of the others. But removing the categories penalises no one, while opening the floor for the authors and tearing away the artificial constraints with which we are currently compelled to comply.

 

[Altissimus]

I've already expressed support for getting rid of them, or treating most of them as some kind of top-level tag. But like M says above, I have long ignored most of them as a reader in favor of doing searches for whatever I'm in the mood for. So for me it's a big shrug, ultimately.

I hear you. Thing is, as a reader (not that I read much these days) I totally ignore the categories. Always have - the advanced search function is so much better. But as a writer, the categories are punitive. That can't be ignored.

 

[samhasstories]

Maybe a 'General' category would help? I feel like there's potentially some value, for some, in reading and writing while embracing all the tropes and expectations that come with genre/category. It can be fun. Want to write a sci-fi romp? Do it, and put it where people are looking for exactly that. But if you want to straddle the lines, bend the rules, color outside all the boxes, then put your content where people might be looking for a little nuance. There's certainly some value in that, too. But I don't believe that's what everyone is looking for.

 

[lovecraft68]

Nothing's going to change. For stories that don't fit in the tidy box you find the box most of it would fit in and go for it.
The big issue here, which also will not change is the reader faction that squeals to high heaven if they find some peanut butter in their chocolate and leaves a nasty remark then the thin skinned author questions what they should do and what they should do is


Worry more about the story and not all the other stuff. I had a story get killed last year because my options were group or LW. Group might have gotten me less abuse, but I felt the story was more fitting to LW so I went with it and took the usual "I don't see anything loving here" crap and the score stinks....oh, well.

And...back to my initial point, nothing is going to change here. Nothing....at least not in this regard. Tradition wins here.

End of the day I revert to the adage adapt or die. This is where the platform we're on and it is what is.

 

[AG31]

I guess starting a debate with this title may be an exercise in futile optimism, as the chances of general accord are about as small as the chances of affecting change, but... in the hope that both the previous presumptions are wrong, here's something to consider.

The categories in Lit are designed to facilitate ease of finding a story for the random visitors that come to the site. That is, to my mind, their sole purpose. It's a purpose that can be achieved in a myriad of other ways - AO3, for example, almost-exclusively uses tags - and Lit already has this capability. So, if the categories are there for a purpose that can be achieved in other ways, ways that already exist, why have them?

That's not a reason to do away with them, just an observation that they're not necessary.

The reason, to my mind, to do away with categories is that they've evolved into something they are not meant to be. Expectations are set in the categories with readers going to them for specific tropes, and that's not good for anyone, let alone creativity and diversity. (We don't want to stifle creativity and diversity, do we?)

Here's a broad example of what I'm talking about:

• LW - BTB only.
• Romance - HEA only.
• BDSM - D/s relationships only.
• EC - no one knows what goes here
• Fetish - too broad to be meaningful
• Incest/Taboo - use of 'step' is instantly harmful
• Anal - why?
• NC/R - two separate things
• Scifi/fantasy - very little traffic, relatively speaking
• Mind Control - basically Noncon
• ...etc

This might be overly-simplistic, yet it seems to have an undeniable grain (more than a grain) of truth to it.

In conclusion, there's no real reason to keep the categories (other than 'tradition', the nemesis of all positive change) and there's plenty of reasons to remove them.

Thoughts?

The only one I've dealt with personally is the D/s relationships for BDSM and I'm really glad to see others (you're one of a few) pointing this out. Also, NC/R are two separate things. What does HEA mean?

 

[Bamagan]

I hear you. Thing is, as a reader (not that I read much these days) I totally ignore the categories. Always have - the advanced search function is so much better. But as a writer, the categories are punitive. That can't be ignored.

I don't personally feel that they're punitive. Restrictive and inconvenient, maybe. I write stuff that (mostly) doesn't fit neatly into the categories as established, and very few of them (if any) are really mutually exclusive. But I am well aware that my motives for posting things here are not entirely aligned with those of other authors. Those of you with more defined goals might well find impediments where I see only irritants.

 

[Altissimus]

Also, NC/R are two separate things.

Not sure if you're agreeing or making a point, but that's what I was going for. Reluctance is not non-con; non-con is not reluctance. They are more than sufficiently different to not be grouped, IMO.

What does HEA mean?

Happy Ever After

 

[Altissimus]

Nothing's going to change.

Nothing ever does until someone instigates it.

 

[AG31]

Not sure if you're agreeing or making a point, but that's what I was going for. Reluctance is not non-con; non-con is not reluctance. They are more than sufficiently different to not be grouped, IMO.

I'm agreeing.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think too many readers find categories useful for this ever to be a possibility. I find categories to be mildly useful when I am looking for a story to read.

 

[Euphony]

Nothing ever does until someone instigates it.

Lack of "instigators" was Lit's problem?

 

[Altissimus]

I think too many readers find categories useful for this ever to be a possibility. I find categories to be mildly useful when I am looking for a story to read.

Yet all you need to do is change every category into a tag and put those tags front-and-centre, and then those of such mindset can simply click them. What's the difference? The difference is that, as authors, we don't have to submit under any of those tags if we don't want to. Now we do.

 

[Altissimus]

Lack of "instigators" was Lit's problem?

View attachment 2287615

If you're implying that change has been tried and failed, I don't disagree, but if (by some miracle) an accord could be reached, would not a majority of writers requesting the same thing make a difference? I think it might. I'm somewhat averse to the 'not prepared to try because I know it will fail' mentality.

 

[SimonDoom]

Yet all you need to do is change every category into a tag and put those tags front-and-centre, and then those of such mindset can simply click them. What's the difference? The difference is that, as authors, we don't have to submit under any of those tags if we don't want to. Now we do.

You can't assume it's going to be a perfect substitute for all readers.

Users of the Internet, in general, are lazy and convenience oriented. If you make something just a little more difficult, some users will stop using or do something else. I would personally find it a little annoying to do away with categories. The system works pretty well for me and for the stories I want to publish, and it works OK for me as a reader. Yes, we could change; but I don't see a good reason to.

 

[AG31]

There have been several threads here concerning categories in the last week or so. One thing I've learned: When looking for a story check out BDSM, NC/R and Fetish.

 

[dadadadiox]

Yet all you need to do is change every category into a tag and put those tags front-and-centre, and then those of such mindset can simply click them. What's the difference? The difference is that, as authors, we don't have to submit under any of those tags if we don't want to. Now we do.

Yes! A menu of tags for writers to choose from and readers to browse through would be far superior to vague, inaccurate, or overlapping genres.

 

[alohadave]

Lit isn't just for the readers. I wouldn't even say it was primarily for the readers. At the risk of stating the bloody obvious, there wouldn't be any readers without the writers (and equally, little point writing without the readers).

You post at Lit because the readers are here. If there were no readers, we wouldn't put the effort into posting here.

The AH is rarified air, and we don't represent the vast majority of authors on the site. The number of regular, active posters in this particular forum is about 3-4 dozen, with a couple dozen other, less frequent posters. We do not represent the majority of the authorship on the site, which is why, for all the whining we do here, nothing ever changes.

Last time I checked, there are ~90,000 registered authors. Granted many of them are inactive, but I follow the new list daily, and I see a lot more authors there that never post in the forums.