Here's a theory: categories hinder more than help

[Astrotrain]

Thanks for digging up a three month buried thread by the way.

Sorry, I'm new here and forgot to check the date of the last posting. I'm in the middle of writing my first story and obviously need to lurk more.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Sorry, I'm new here and forgot to check the date of the last posting. I'm in the middle of writing my first story and obviously need to lurk more.

Well, people have done way worse. At least the restarted conversation is stimulating. Don't sweat it.

 

[KeithD]

I assumed that gay would trump out to GM or Lez.

And I whipped those lists up quickly. If you have more sub-categories to suggest please do!

If the categories were going to that granularity, I think the gay categories should expand into them.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

No, this is just wrong. When you say writers with no self control, what you are really saying is writers who don't pander or write to cookie cutter formulas. This is the very definition of restricting what authors can write. If sticking to a formula is the only way to get a significant audience then there are going to be countless stories - stories that are unique and original - left unwritten, leaving us with a bunch of predictable cookie-cutter stories. The spirit of fiction can't help but weep at that notion.

Actually I'm not. What I was trying to convey, I think I kinda said already in this thread, or for sure I know I said it better in a related thread under my other account, I just couldn't think of a better way to put it. I don't even like that in tradpub, so why would I say we do that here? You must didn't understand my metaphor. I've never said write to the letter of a catagory(sniper rifle), not that it's bad, I say at the very least aim for the catagory(shot gun), and the only problems are from those who are basically free form writers with no structure(hitting everything with a trebuchet launching gravel).

I looked and can't find it, but between my two accounts, I explained it better, I just remember me and Emily had a small back&fourth. Either way, I'm getting at aiming for the catagory, have a main plot that's strong enough that whatever catagory is obvious or at least easy to figure out. Reader politics aside.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If the categories were going to that granularity, I think the gay categories should expand into them.

I can't disagree. I didn't mean to say that a gay story should trump out to gay, I merely assumed how Laurel would handle it. I mean I don't write gay (at least haven't yet) so I don't really experience it, but this what I hear fellow authors say on the forums. If you try to post a gay story into Romance or BDSM or Toys or Incest, chances are that Laurel (rightly or wrongly) will move it to gay on you anyways. If I have any of Laurel's processes wrong, please do correct me so that no one is misled.

 

[TheArsonist]

I say at the very least aim for the catagory(shot gun), and the only problems are from those who are basically free form writers with no structure(hitting everything with a trebuchet launching gravel).

A very popular subgenre of erotica is dark urban fantasy-romance (or "romantasy" as they've started calling it); think girls or guys getting fucked by vampires/werewolves/etc., often in "reverse harem" situations with elements of domination/dubious consent. Stories like that can easily hit half of LE's categories while sticking strictly to a particular story type and structure.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Actually I'm not. What I was trying to convey, I think I kinda said already in this thread, or for sure I know I said it better in a related thread under my other account, I just couldn't think of a better way to put it. I don't even like that in tradpub, so why would I say we do that here? You must didn't understand my metaphor. I've never said write to the letter of a catagory(sniper rifle), not that it's bad, I say at the very least aim for the catagory(shot gun), and the only problems are from those who are basically free form writers with no structure(hitting everything with a trebuchet launching gravel).

Again this is not accurate. From my own experiences alone, I often writes specific things (not launching gravel at all, quite the opposite) that have no ideal category to fit.

Also, aiming generally for a category still limits when there are only 32 categories with no consistency between them. Some categories are very narrow and specific and some are oceanically wide. On top of that, we have so many categories that are factioned into cliques or are otherwise polarized which creates a culture of downvoting that further discourages writers from straying from the templates or being original.

 

[Bramblethorn]

They're only restrictive to writers with no self-control. Some of them are vastly broader than others. If somebody can't make a story fit in something as broad as fetish, that's not the sites problem at all.

The issue isn't "no category where it fits", it's "multiple categories that could fit".

Actually I'm not. What I was trying to convey, I think I kinda said already in this thread, or for sure I know I said it better in a related thread under my other account, I just couldn't think of a better way to put it. I don't even like that in tradpub, so why would I say we do that here? You must didn't understand my metaphor. I've never said write to the letter of a catagory(sniper rifle), not that it's bad, I say at the very least aim for the catagory(shot gun), and the only problems are from those who are basically free form writers with no structure(hitting everything with a trebuchet launching gravel).

This feels like victim-blaming. Just because somebody doesn't structure their story according to the expectations of one specific category doesn't mean they're not structuring it.

I looked and can't find it, but between my two accounts, I explained it better, I just remember me and Emily had a small back&fourth. Either way, I'm getting at aiming for the catagory, have a main plot that's strong enough that whatever catagory is obvious or at least easy to figure out.

Again, just because a plot doesn't neatly fit into a single category doesn't mean it's weak. Literotica's categorisation system is not the only conceivable way for an author to plan their work.

 

[Bramblethorn]

AO3 tags work as well as they do because AO3 has legions of "tag wranglers" fixing and organizing tags on stories and maintaining a tag dictionary (I forget the archivist term for that) under the covers.

"Ontology"?

And yeah, Ao3's tagging system is great but implementing that here would require shifting to a much more decentralised, volunteer-heavy way of doing things, which would be a big cultural shift.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

The issue isn't "no category where it fits", it's "multiple categories that could fit".



This feels like victim-blaming. Just because somebody doesn't structure their story according to the expectations of one specific category doesn't mean they're not structuring it.



Again, just because a plot doesn't neatly fit into a single category doesn't mean it's weak. Literotica's categorisation system is not the only conceivable way for an author to plan their work.

Yeah, and at least some sort of over arching plot or premise at the least could help pin down one--at least sometimes. I'm not victim blaming, nor am I saying a plots weak if it doesn't fit perfectly in [catagory], just saying there would probably be less issues. I don't have any problems writing here, but also if I can't get something to work here, I can put it elsewhere, so I don't find it hard to focus or whatever and don't see the catagories as "constraints", just like I don't see FFNs no smut rule as a problem. But usually I write with Lit in mind if I'm putting something here, whatever I'm aiming at is either the only thing, or the biggest thing.

For example in one of my mom/son incest stories, the mom isn't the only person he has sex with, or developing a relationship with, but it's obvious their relationship is the biggest focus and there's more sexual interaction between them two, than it is with his stepmom or cousin. You can throw everything in the beef stew, but it's called beef stew for a reason.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Again this is not accurate. From my own experiences alone, I often writes specific things (not launching gravel at all, quite the opposite) that have no ideal category to fit.

Also, aiming generally for a category still limits when there are only 32 categories with no consistency between them. Some categories are very narrow and specific and some are oceanically wide. On top of that, we have so many categories that are factioned into cliques or are otherwise polarized which creates a culture of downvoting that further discourages writers from straying from the templates or being original.

That's one thing I've brought up myself; how vast and narrow some are. Lits probably the only site where I think about the catagory before I write. I've yet to have a problem.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yeah, and at least some sort of over arching plot or premise at the least could help pin down one--at least sometimes.

But often the plot or premise involves more than one category. Some premises and themes I have written about here:

- futuristic technology complicates a romantic relationship
- old-school horror has been influenced by attitudes to homosexuality
- how does romance work between two women when one of them thinks of herself as straight?
- woman tells a long-running fantasy story as a way to romance her housemate
- unscrupulous person manipulates people into exhibitionist acts they don't want to do

 

[M_K_Babalon]

But often the plot or premise involves more than one category. Some premises and themes I have written about here:

- futuristic technology complicates a romantic relationship
- old-school horror has been influenced by attitudes to homosexuality
- how does romance work between two women when one of them thinks of herself as straight?
- woman tells a long-running fantasy story as a way to romance her housemate
- unscrupulous person manipulates people into exhibitionist acts they don't want to do

Yeah, I see what your saying.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

That's one thing I've brought up myself; how vast and narrow some are. Lits probably the only site where I think about the catagory before I write. I've yet to have a problem.

If you can see and even admit how the categories shape your story ideas before you even start then you can see how limiting that is for ideas. If there is no category for your idea, or your idea is in a niche that is very poorly supported, you just don't write it. I understand that you yourself have no problem with this because if something doesn't fit here you post it somewhere else, but that just proves that literotica itself is missing out on certain story ideas, possibly thousands, just because the category system here is archaic awkward and incomplete. It goes to show that the weak category system here actually discourages originality. Authors here either take their unconventional stories somewhere else, or not write them at all, choosing to write more formulaic stuff instead. And that's a shame.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

If you can see and even admit how the categories shape your story ideas before you even start then you can see how limiting that is for ideas. If there is no category for your idea, or your idea is in a niche that is very poorly supported, you just don't write it. I understand that you yourself have no problem with this because if something doesn't fit here you post it somewhere else, but that just proves that literotica itself is missing out on certain story ideas, possibly thousands, just because the category system here is archaic awkward and incomplete. It goes to show that the weak category system here actually discourages originality. Authors here either take their unconventional stories somewhere else, or not write them at all, choosing to write more formulaic stuff instead. And that's a shame.

Ya know what; you do have a point and I can see how feeble a stance most of my opinions on the matter are. I don't know how many catagories other sites have compared to this one, erotica sites or otherwise, like AO3 has quite a bit of them, but they're all broad stuff like Adventure or Horror. Lit has 32 catagories, I actually didn't know because I've never paid attention, but that's a lot of options. Maybe the problem is that they have become a detriment to themselves? Or the userbase is just outgrown them so to speak? I ain't even arguing anymore, I'm generally getting curious.

Actually a quick correction; I put a story in edit on ao3 and was reminded it doesn't use catagories at all, it's all tags. Quotev uses catagories and I do feel the way some of you feel there, because I don't write for that site, I just publish already written stuff there. Wattpad has 21. LushStories has 58. It seems Lush and Lit have some real niche stuff, one of theirs is Office Sex, and I haven't been there long enough, and the forums don't seem to be popping like here, but I haven't seen anybody there with the same grievance. I'm not even adding the social politics in the equation because I don't care to a degree of what the readers like, or expect from a catagory. I'm still not too sure how weak or archaic Lits cats are, because other sites have the same ones and in Lushes list, several more, and sites like AO³ are outliers that don't use any. FFN has 21, but you can pick two and the site doesn't really do tags.

In a way, that's true, the catagories do affect what I write here, because I intentionally make sure they at least fit, but it's not like haven't had the issue of where should this go? I think that was the first thread I started with this account with the mature story I'm writing(finishing). It could've also went in Romance. It seems for some reason the site and some of the writers don't always lend to each other. Given I'm on... ten(?) sites for writing, outside of the problems people have with FFN, this is the only other site I've people complain about site design. As much as I can understand, I still believe it's mostly a personal problem and not completely Lits fault. If yall have this problem with Lit, you'd probably have the same problem on any other erotica site or site that allows it. Lush, asstr, Wattpad, xnxx, ao3. I do believe, and I said this in where ever that other thread is; that the catagories are more for the benefits of readers and as writers we hafta work for the site, the site(any of them) don't work with us or for us, or something along those lines.

 

[boytoyjoy]

And yeah, Ao3's tagging system is great

Even in ao3's case I usually go by recommendations rather than tags, but I do occasionally get lucky with tags. Maybe we'll see fancier search systems someday, that can find niche interests by directly processing the story texts.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Authors here either take their unconventional stories somewhere else, or not write them at all, choosing to write more formulaic stuff instead. And that's a shame.

Or they write them and post them here, regardless.

Sure, there's more formulaic filler than unconventional content, but the latter is still out there, and lots of it.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Or they write them and post them here, regardless.

Sure, there's more formulaic filler than unconventional content, but the latter is still out there, and lots of it.

Yes I know. I am one of those writers who is not afraid to post regardless of how poorly it fits or how poorly it may/will be received.

Yes, there is unconventional content out there, but not nearly so much as there could be, and on top of that, the unconventional content that is out there is hard to find since it doesn't fit well into categories and rarely gets Red Hs solely due to the downvoting. Ignoring anything without a Red H is a hugely common practice out there.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Yes I know. I am one of those writers who is not afraid to post regardless of how poorly it fits or how poorly it may/will be received.

Yes, there is unconventional content out there, but not nearly so much as there could be, and on top of that, the unconventional content that is out there is hard to find since it doesn't fit well into categories and rarely gets Red Hs solely due to the downvoting. Ignoring anything without a Red H is a hugely common practice out there.

I tend to find it by following like minded authors who have commented, "that's not the usual stuff around here". Or from non-authors with a short list of favourites.

Those guys with huge lists though, they're not helpful at all.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Even in ao3's case I usually go by recommendations rather than tags, but I do occasionally get lucky with tags. Maybe we'll see fancier search systems someday, that can find niche interests by directly processing the story texts.

No, because those exist already; they're ai algorithms and I hate them. I prefer they stay far away from the search and suggestion of writing sites.

 

[Britva415]

Maybe a 'General' category would help?

EC - no one knows what goes here

 

[RejectReality]

If you think the categories here restrict you, cultivate multiple venues. The site isn't holding you back. You are.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If you think the categories here restrict you, cultivate multiple venues. The site isn't holding you back. You are.

Don't worry. The site is not holding me back. That has not been my argument. I'm saying that the site is holding itself back.

 

[boytoyjoy]

No, because those exist already; they're ai algorithms and I hate them.

I don't mean recommender systems, I mean search for story features. That doesn't exist anywhere as far as I know, but it is beginning to be doable.

 

[JCSTREET]

Is there a dedicated section for "writing erotica or flagrant cojones to the wall porn for pay". I haven't spotted one yet. About 15 years ago a Los Angeles publisher wanted to pick up a 5000-word yarn of mine for US$50, which is less than Anais Nin earned per word in Paris almost a century ago. Indeed, the Montreal Gazette back in the 60s, paid CAD$25 for a 600-word book review and one got to keep the book. Naturally I didn't sell to the LA publisher though they may well have stolen it. No idea. Anyway, I am not hopeful. However, any suggestions would be welcome. I'm fine with going do2wn rabbit holes . . . etc