Female Characters

[TheRedChamber]

The thing I had a problem with about the story is that at the end of the movie, you realize the story never really about Ariel, but her father. He's the one who learns the lesson around the perils of stripping your daughter of her autonomy to suit your own interest in her life. Any of his daughters could've been substituted for Ariel with their own desires and dreams and it would've played out just the same way, ultimately with Triton learning the lesson and changing at the end of film to "allow" his daughter to make her own choices, for better or worse.

And again, her giving up her voice was, in my opinion, symbolic of ridding herself of the one thing her father appeared to value in her (her singing being similar to her dead mother's, which is a whole other level of twisted.) It's only after he exchanges his soul for Ariel's at Ursula's that he expresses any consideration for her as a whole being to her. Before that it was only ever about her performing for him.

Yes, that's certainly a better reading of it than I'd come up with. That said, it still feels a bit thin, as I'd expect both of them to have learned some kind of lesson by the end. The autonomy part is interesting because she always seems to do whatever she wants anyway and as she nearly gets eaten by a shart in the first five minutes and then trades her soul to the most obviously cartoonishly evil woman ever, as a father I'm kind of on his side! Still, this is the sort of thing that makes characters come alive.

 

[TxRad]

Now back to female characters on Lit.

I've written quite a few over the last 277 stories I have posted here. Some good, some bad, but none flat. In some cases, they are far better than my male characters.

The female character I loved to write the most was smart, self confident, a powerhouse of a character. The problem is, I killed her off with about a third of the east coast. It was the start of a mutant novel so people had to die and radiation had to be released. I miss her so.

As a side note: The laptop the novel was on was stolen on a road trip and I've spent years trying to piece it all back together with not much success.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Let's move on to Captain Marvel, then.

I believe it to be the best MCU entry (damning with faint praise.) It has a believable (sort of) superhuman strength origin story, complex character development (for a superhero movie), and cool depictions of the joy of flight and going into space. It's basically a mash-up of 'Top Gun' and 'The Right Stuff,' even name-checking 'The Right Stuff.' For the icing on the cake, Danvers decapitates the evil villain of 'True Lies,' Harry Tasker.

I only thought that Captain Marvel was average at best overall (but then I like the Marvel movies by and large), but felt that it generally got the main thrust of the heroine right - the character of a female 80's fighter pilot meant that the character was exceptional to begin with and the message of 'you didn't become a hero because you got superpowers, your actions made you a hero' is suitably comic booky. Then the character being strong-willed and cocky came naturally from the story.

She sneaks off and hides this huge part of her enjoyment in life because it's forbidden by her father. If he was a good dad, he'd have been out there with her helping her look for human stuff in a safe way and she never would've been drawn to the sea witch in the first place because he would've been being supportive of her as an individual. She more than likely would've been fine learning about and observing human life from a distance, but the more he forbid it, the more she wanted it, just like any normal teenager. He literally blew up all of the things that brought her joy in life in a fit of rage which is what left her vulnerable to Jetsam and Flotsam's influence to go to the sea witch.

Triton was not a good father. The whole thing would've been curtailed by him taking a genuine interest in something his daughter was passionate about instead of obstinately sticking to his own beliefs because "he's dad and he says so."

Also, I know it was a typo, but the bolded bit is the best typo in existence and nothing can change my mind.

I'm half joking - half - obviously the father is not great in many ways. It's probably a bit different for the God of the Sea, but as a father, my solution to my daughter swimming in shark infested waters is not to jump in with her (and that goes double for shart infested waters). Besides the set-up is that everyone believes that human are dangerous and threaten the whole underwater kingdom, whether this is ultimately true, the implication is that her actions threaten the whole kingdom and as a princess she has extra responsibility to follow the rules. Obviously, many a great tale has been told around the 'free spirit discovers that the the rule suck' trope, but it works better when there's an existential threat to the society - Moana works better because she only leaves for the sea when it's clear that her home island is in danger, even though she's always wanted to.

EDIT: I've just remembered that the Little Mermaid ends with Sebastien the Lobster being chased by the human chef. I feels that it's relevant...

 

[stickygirl]

1. Stop pitting different types of women against each other as a "better" or "worse" example of a woman. Let them exist as individuals without comparing their virtues and flaws against your own ideals of what a woman should be.

I'm gonna get that printed on a T-shirt

... and the pitting is not limited to one gender

 

[ElectricBlue]

Now back to female characters on Lit.

I've written quite a few over the last 277 stories I have posted here. Some good, some bad, but none flat. In some cases, they are far better than my male characters.

The female character I loved to write the most was smart, self confident, a powerhouse of a character.

I'm far more interested in my female characters than I am in my men - my male protagonists are mostly all versions of fantasy me (young) and fantasy me (now), and because I'm a lazy writer, they're basically the same character (Adam or Alex), because I "know" them, and they're easy to write. There are a few outliers, but generally, I write the same man.

But the women who steam up from my subconscious, they're who I'm interested in as a writer, so they get fleshed out the most, are fully formed - in my mind at least, and I hope that comes through in my writing. They're all strong-willed, confident, positive women who act under their own agency.

Someone did accuse me once of writing harem porn, but I'd like to think my characters disagree. Sure, there's a lot of male gaze going on which I won't deny, but hey, erotica, male writer, male arousal, what does anyone expect?

 

[stickygirl]

I'm far more interested in my female characters than I am in my men - my male protagonists are mostly all versions of fantasy me (young) and fantasy me (now), and because I'm a lazy writer, they're basically the same character (Adam or Alex), because I "know" them, and they're easy to write. There are a few outliers, but generally, I write the same man.

But the women who steam up from my subconscious, they're who I'm interested in as a writer, so they get fleshed out the most, are fully formed - in my mind at least, and I hope that comes through in my writing. They're all strong-willed, confident, positive women who act under their own agency.

Someone did accuse me once of writing harem porn, but I'd like to think my characters disagree. Sure, there's a lot of male gaze going on which I won't deny, but hey, erotica, male writer, male arousal, what does anyone expect?

That's an honest approach and it would be tedious to read nothing but lesbian based feminist erotica.

This arcs back to the false assumption that feminism itself is about male-bashing, but hell, no. Women are sexually attracted to men, not all of course, but we love our men with their hairy tummies and badly behaved cocks. The two things - hairy tummies and feminism - were never mutually exclusive. The trick is setting the balance appropriately to ensure no one is taken advantage of.

Perhaps that's the puzzle of life - we can see where we want to end up, and only need to figure how to get there.... no, actually that's bollocks isn't it? Only a few people agree on the destination, the puzzle is to find the right people.

 

[TheRedChamber]

It's not really set up that way, though. It's known that Triton has a grudge against all humans because he blames them for his wife's death, that's it. The reality was that (at least how it's portrayed in the prequel movie) she's killed by pirates, not the average human. So it's nothing but fear mongering on Triton's part in order to maintain his control of the kingdom. (By the way, I hope you stay out of ALL public water ways, I guarantee that at least some animal has sharted in it.) If your daughter's passion is marine biology, would you tell her she needs to stay out of the water at all costs because the water is dangerous and things live in it that could rip her apart painfully to the point that her desire to be a marine biologist is curtailed in favor of your fears of possible, yet unlikely, bad outcomes? Or would you teach her how to swim in safe waters and teach her about the dangerous animals that live in the water in order to foster that passion in a way that promotes her safety? 'Cause one of those responses is seriously fucked up and you should think twice if that's your approach.

She doesn't have an extra responsibility to follow the rules as a princess in the same way that I wouldn't expect a gay prince or princess to "put up an image" for the good of the kingdom that wasn't genuine to who they were. Her actions threaten nothing but Triton's rules which were meant to subvert his daughters' ambitions and dreams in order to keep his family and kingdom under his thumb.

Ariel sets out to realize her dreams and ultimately does so in spite of practically everyone being against her doing so for no reason other than "It's against the rules." (Which, again, Moana wouldn't have had to go it alone if her father had *listened* to her instead of brushing her off and dismissing her very legitimate thoughts and concerns for the island. Disney is full of bad dads and dead moms, lol.)

I haven't seen the prequel (I'm guessing it's in my future at some not too distant date), so I can't comment on how that changes the perception of him. Obviously, if he knows the law is based on false premises and is still enforcing it then he's in the wrong. I was under the impression that the marine kingdom didn't like humans because of all the fishing, but maybe I'm misremembering. Similarly, I'm not aware that Triton's rules are 'meant' to subvert his daughter's ambitions - again I'm assuming they were passed as a matter of national defense. Obviously legislation as a way of controlling your teenage daughter is a dick move. But at the basic level, if some human are pirates, and we're not sure which ones, maybe it is a good idea to stay away from humans.

As a parent, you're constantly weighing up dangers to your child - some wild mushrooms are poisonous. I have no idea which ones. So we don't pick random wild mushrooms, especially if I'm not convinced there's a benefit to just buying definitely safe ones from the shop. If it really became a passion of my daughters would I let her? Well I still don't like the idea because there are penalties to being wrong. If she's persistent enough then maybe I'd be looking to hire someone who really knows their 'shrooms (which might be expensive), but I'm still going to be cautious about her picking stuff on her own until I'm really sure she knows what she's doing (or else she becomes a legal adult). If I'm the king and many villagers have died from picking wild mushrooms, then it may make sense to outlaw mushroom picking. In which case my daughter is not going out picking wild mushrooms on my watch. (Yes, yes, maybe instituting a programme to educate the villages

I'm viewing this issue as whether individual happiness trumps society harm. If Ariel interacting with humans can leave other members of the kingdom dead, then she needs a better reason to do it than just her own happiness. Again, if there's no threat - and if Ariel is sure of that - then there's no issue. The issue of the 'gay prince' is a bit different, in the sense that I don't believe that the promotion of homosexuality harms society, completely the opposite. Still, if you suppose that I ended up the leader of a fragile, conservative recent-theocracy and I believed that my son or daughter coming out as gay might put people's lives in danger of extremist bombings say and maybe even push the country's progress backwards, then that's a very delicate situation in which personal sacrifices might be the more noble choice.

Princesses, as privilaged members of society, do have extra responsibility to follow laws - or at the very least should be expected to follow them at least as much as ordinary citizens - just as I'm more angry about Boris Johnson holding parties than I would be with a normal member of society.

Yes, Moana was right and her father was wrong (IIRC I'm a bit hazy on the details, but sure)

We've gone a bit deep on this. I really was meant at the start that Triton might have had some genuine concerns for his daughters safety even though he clearly has his own issues.

 

[AlinaX]

Having resisted a rant about Star Wars earlier, I will try to resist now. However:

I'm glad to see so many stck up for Rey. People say she developed skills out of nowhere, but the truth is we know almost nothing about her childhood. She was abandoned by her parents and has been forced to look after her own survival. Who knows what cruelty she has faced. We do know that she has learned to be self-sufficient, that she has spent years maintaining and salvaging ship parts, that clearly she has learned how to defend herself, and despite everything - and here is perhaps the most unlikely thing - she is still open-hearted and full of innocent wonder.

Rey the fighter I can believe in. I loved her arc in the first two films.

Emma Raducanu reminds me a lot of Rey. Just quietly being brilliant and standing up for herself in the face of media frenzy.

 

[MelissaBaby]

You can mock, but essentially, yes, at a basic level Luke and Han pass the Dorothy test - they're simple characters but they have a clear motive for following the Yellow Brick Road that the audience isn't going to be confused about.

It’s too bad there isn’t a thread titled Male Characters to discuss it.

 

[TheRedChamber]

His genuine concerns don't trump her individual rights.

Oh they absolutely do. As long as she's under 18, as a parent, he is responsible for her safety. Similarly, as king, once he's establish a law for the overall good of society, she no longer has that right to break it (this point would be neater if he was leader of a democratically elected government, but heyho). My daughter (6yo) doesn't currently want to sit in her child seat. My concerns for her safety absolutely trump her right to sit where she wants.

But, yes, obviously parenting is a constant negotiation between what they want, what's safe, what's affordable, what you have time for (once you've made time for something), and what might be good for their future. I dunno, even without the threat of poison, I'm thinking princessing is a better career path than mushroom-picker and I might want to subtly keep nudging her that way. (Although Princess Peach manages to cover both angles, so maybe life finds a way)

Overall, I want to encourage my child's dream, but there are some examples of dreams you shouldn't support - Jumping Springfield Gorge being the classic example.

 

[SimonDoom]

Hmmmm.

EB looks at Simon with sorrow, and shakes his head.

"Before Star Wars there always was, and always will be, 2001, A Space Odyssey." **

** Marketing campaign for the tenth anniversary release of 2001, the magnum opus of twentieth century sci-fi.

"Should he spit out the soap?" asked Suzie, nervously stepping away from her brother.

Oh, come on, now. 2001 was beautiful, but it was static. It had none of Star Wars's thrills. None of its spirit of fun. In the 2001 universe, space was quiet. What fun is that?

 

[SimonDoom]

So, pushing forward this thread, here's my question: what's your idea of a well-drawn female character in an erotic story or an erotic movie, and why do you think she is a well-drawn character? What's an example of a badly drawn character?

Good character: I'm a big fan of the movie Secretary, with Maggie Gyllenhall. I thought her character, Lee, was wonderful. She's a weird, damaged person who enters a submissive relationship with her lawyer boss, played by James Spader. But the movie doesn't apologize for her or try to fix her. They find happiness together in their strangeness, and at the end they are just as strange as at the beginning. It's a rare mainstream movie that affirms, rather than condemns or pathologizes, unusual sexual attitudes and behaviors. It works both as erotica and as romance.

Interestingly, the screenplay was written by a woman, and it was based on a short story written by a woman. I'm not at all surprised.

Bad character: Anastasia from 50 Shades. She never seemed like a real person to me, and there was nothing interesting about her. It's somewhat remarkable, because we spend 3 books reading about her. This was a good example of a BDSM story where the author wanted the BDSM elements to titillate but she never convincingly got to the motivation and psychology underlying the appeal that BDSM had for her characters. I thought it was the opposite of Secretary, in this respect.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Leaving aside the Little Mermaid being derived from the morality tale by a depressed gay Dane and sticking with the Disney trope of "your parents want the best for you but are sometimes wrong, but god forbid any protagonist talks to their parents as otherwise there wouldn't be a film", while amending the ending and making the whole plot make no sense (she's supposed to feel like knives stabbing her feet with every step, dammit - it may be an unpleasant tale but at least it's consistent)...

Good protagonists - Morticia and Wednesday Addams - they are unapologetically themselves and don't give a shit about what others think (to an unrealistic degree, even, but it makes them admirable). And the portrayal of her relationship with Gomez, BDSM and all, is clearly loving.

Rubbish ones - 50 Shades goes without saying, partly because it's renamed Twilight vampire fanfic and partly because it's not about the characters, just the Swept Away fantasy and lots of money. Also many 'heroines' and 'heroes' in fantasy quest stories where stuff just happens to the person and there's no real involvement of their personality at all.

 

[stickygirl]

So, pushing forward this thread, here's my question: what's your idea of a well-drawn female character in an erotic story or an erotic movie, and why do you think she is a well-drawn character? What's an example of a badly drawn character?

Good character: I'm a big fan of the movie Secretary, with Maggie Gyllenhall. I thought her character, Lee, was wonderful. She's a weird, damaged person who enters a submissive relationship with her lawyer boss, played by James Spader. But the movie doesn't apologize for her or try to fix her. They find happiness together in their strangeness, and at the end they are just as strange as at the beginning. It's a rare mainstream movie that affirms, rather than condemns or pathologizes, unusual sexual attitudes and behaviors. It works both as erotica and as romance.

Interestingly, the screenplay was written by a woman, and it was based on a short story written by a woman. I'm not at all surprised.

Bad character: Anastasia from 50 Shades. She never seemed like a real person to me, and there was nothing interesting about her. It's somewhat remarkable, because we spend 3 books reading about her. This was a good example of a BDSM story where the author wanted the BDSM elements to titillate but she never convincingly got to the motivation and psychology underlying the appeal that BDSM had for her characters. I thought it was the opposite of Secretary, in this respect.

In erotic literature? It has to be The Butcher by Alina Reyes. It was the first piece of erotic literature that opened my eyes to what the genre could be. It's written mostly in first person and I don't think we ever learn the name of the young woman who takes a holiday job in a butchers shop. The narrative is entirely through her eyes, complete with her emotions, imaginative day dreams and whimsy, culminating in the most honest description of sex I've ever read.

She is one of my mentors and like everyone's first best teacher, someone I constantly refer back to for inspiration.

I won't attempt a reciprocal bad example, Simon, there's too much to choose from.

 

[AlinaX]

I just like to get into character's heads, try to have some coherent logic for their actions, no matter how fantastic the setting. Half my characters are nameless, and maybe that will bother some readers, but with erotic fiction I think readers often like a lack of details. It makes self-insert easier.

 

[stickygirl]

It makes self-insert easier.

*snickers*
... thinks of stents called Darcy and KY ... sorry

 

[AlinaX]

*snickers*
... thinks of stents called Darcy and KY ... sorry

Okay, over my head, but now I'm imagining a whole new cyberutopia.

 

[MelissaBaby]

So, pushing forward this thread, here's my question: what's your idea of a well-drawn female character in an erotic story or an erotic movie, and why do you think she is a well-drawn character? What's an example of a badly drawn character?

Good: I'll second Secretary, and add Kathleen Turner in Body Heat. She is an evil, nasty bitch who knows what she wants and how to get it. There are very few example of a femme fatale who has agency and is not the cat's paw of a male antagonist. I'd add Linda Fiorentino's character in The Last Seduction as well. The best realistic female villains on film.

Bad: Kim Basinger in 9 1/2 Weeks. I accept that there are people who have no idea what they want, sexually or otherwise, and bounce all over the place, and one can certainly write a good story about that emotional journey. But in this case, the narrative is incoherent, and because the character is just jammed into different situation, not because they are a logical progression for her, but just because the filmmakers wanted to include a laundry list of what they considered erotic or dramatic situations.

 

[Edey]

There are slightly more women than men in the world, so it seems like IRL there must be plenty of situations where female "characters" fit. If writers can't find roles for female characters in fiction, that's on the writers and their lack of imagination.

But what about gay romances?
I read MM romances and erotic stories, I also write gay-male stories myself and I do not feel the need to include woman characters just for... I don't even know what for. If It's a capsule, one-on-one romance plot-line.
I'm totally new here, 2 days ago published my first story, that is still pending moderation, It's a story about two men falling in love. Does it really is a lack of imagination if I can't find the reason to force woman character into my story?
I just simply like to read and write about men. I hope I didn't misinterpret your comment.

 

[SimonDoom]

The Warrior
One of my fave characters

You gotta love that 80s style.

 

[stickygirl]

But what about gay romances?
I read MM romances and erotic stories, I also write gay-male stories myself and I do not feel the need to include woman characters just for... I don't even know what for. If It's a capsule, one-on-one romance plot-line.
I'm totally new here, 2 days ago published my first story, that is still pending moderation, It's a story about two men falling in love. Does it really is a lack of imagination if I can't find the reason to force woman character into my story?
I just simply like to read and write about men. I hope I didn't misinterpret your comment.

Of course not, but the title of the thread is Female Characters not 'why gay men don't include women in their stories'. You're taking a remark out of context. It's your choice if you want to include a woman, but the thread is examining how a female character is portrayed when she does appear. No one would accuse a scientist of ignoring dolphins if they published a piece on primates.

Good luck with your story - it sometimes takes an extra few days when you're a new author to Lit for the mods to get to it.

 

[Edey]

Of course not, but the title of the thread is Female Characters not 'why gay men don't include women in their stories'. You're taking a remark out of context. It's your choice if you want to include a woman, but the thread is examining how a female character is portrayed when she does appear. No one would accuse a scientist of ignoring dolphins if they published a piece on primates.

Good luck with your story - it sometimes takes an extra few days when you're a new author to Lit for the mods to get to it.

I wish it was so simple, though Did you hear about the book Captive Prince? It was about two male characters (two princes), It was purely gay story in a "gay" world, and the MC fall in love. But I saw so many opinions on the Internet that C.S.Pacat did not include more female characters there, they were side / minor characters there only. It was a serious and recurring allegation. So... I sometimes simply fear if there is a bigger problem and there is really no niche for only-men literature. Maybe I'm blowing it out of the proportion, but I saw such arguments on Goodreads and I my question wasn't meant to be just a simplistic misinterpretation of the quotation I used from Bramblethorn post.

PS I hope it will be published soon, I wait crossing my fingers for people reviews as I'm not a native speaker(also not living in the US) and I hope it will not show in story too much (I had an editor's help).

 

[stickygirl]

I wish it was so simple, though Did you hear about the book Captive Prince? It was about two male characters (two princes), It was purely gay story in a "gay" world, and the MC fall in love. But I saw so many opinions on the Internet that C.S.Pacat did not include more female characters there, they were side / minor characters there only. It was a serious and recurring allegation. So... I sometimes simply fear if there is a bigger problem and there is really no niche for only-men literature. Maybe I'm blowing it out of the proportion, but I saw such arguments on Goodreads and I my question wasn't meant to be just a simplistic misinterpretation of the quotation I used from Bramblethorn post.

PS I hope it will be published soon, I wait crossing my fingers for people reviews as I'm not a native speaker(also not living in the US) and I hope it will not show in story too much (I had an editor's help).

Aha - so you did have context! However you've got the better of me with your reference and perhaps I shouldn't have presumed to answer for Brambles. Must be an odd bunch that make comments on Goodreads

 

[jehoram]

We do know that she [Rey] has learned to be self-sufficient, that she has spent years maintaining and salvaging ship parts, that clearly she has learned how to defend herself, and despite everything - and here is perhaps the most unlikely thing - she is still open-hearted and full of innocent wonder.

You know, that's the thing that struck me with Gal Gadot's portrayal of Wonder Woman. She is a merciless fighter when she needs to be, but her innocence at the ways of the world (like her astonishment at being introduced to ice cream) gave her a gentle edge.

There's a scene in the Zach Snyder version of "Justice League" that stood out for me, after Diana foiled a terrorist attack at the beginning. The part that Zach left in but Josh cut out dealt with her going to the rescued children, getting down on her knees so that they were eye level with them, and asking them if they were all right. I don't see Batman or Superman or Thor or (insert name of male superhero here) who would have taken the time to see if the people they rescued were ready to resume their lives. Make of that what you will.

 

[8letters]

I'm going to talk about Rey, but before I do, I want to say that Finn is far worse of a character. He contributes almost nothing. In the third movie, for the most part he follows Rey around and occasionally shouts, "Hey, Rey!" You can justify Rey knowing how to do the stuff she does with "The Force!", but there's no justification for Finn suddenly becoming a great horse-thingy rider when he's probably never before been around an animal bigger than a bug. As Rey is this raw talent, Finn should have been a mentor who could teach Rey the ropes. In the original, you had Obi-Wan and Han Solo teaching Luke from two very different perspectives. I think the trilogy would have been much better if Finn would have been replaced by a female bounty hunter, who mentors Rey while trading barbs with Poe Dameron.

Now on Rey - I think she's this terrible bait-and-switch character in that she's suppose to be the strong, female hero when in actually Ben Solo is the hero of the trilogy, and Rey's main role is to lure him from the dark side to the light side with her hotness. We spend 2 3/4 movies waiting for Kylo Ren to say, "I've got to have that women - time to switch to the light side." Once he does, then the forces of good can finally attack the forces of evil. So much of the first movie was spent showing her life as a scavenger living in severe poverty, and then all that background never got used.