Demonizing sex workers

[CyranoJ]

I'll candidly admit that Aella kinda loses me at the word "libertarian." But that's still interesting.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Which also provides a specific window onto the various sweeping claims about "trafficking" typically used to justify paternalistic approaches to sex work and workers, and plenty of specifics about what those approaches actually lead to. I would take that to be quite material when aggressive claims come up that nobody is actually generating research about these topics (false), or that all the research supports the position of the antis (also false).

Of course, it's far from complete. But I will note that in fact, even several of the articles at your first link (here, for example, and here, in the top results of a search that was clearly skewed to avoid producing such results) take stigmatization to task as a major social harm related to sex workers. If we make it a search for "harmful effects of prostitution stigma" we can find many more. Give it a shot.

Now, we could easily get into a game of duelling citations here and I'm not interested in that. I'm just conveying to you that your apparent assumption that anyone who differs from your viewpoint has not done thinking or research (about either the broader history or the present nature of sex work) is simply not correct.

It also seems to me that you would benefit from actually checking out some of those different perspectives. It will make you considerably more interesting and convincing on the topic even if your underlying convictions remain unmoved; far more so than, say, misrepresenting other people's words and throwing around casual accusations about ignorance and bad faith. I hope you get there. Have a nice day.

And now you try to turn it into a personal attack.

You are the one acting in bad faith. You made an unsupported claim about "all the research" that supported your opinion.
I asked for examples.
You said you had already shared it in this thread.
That was misrepresenting the facts, you had cited one study that didn't actually address the issue we were talking about.
I pointed out there are other studies that show different findings.
You dismiss them out of hand and then try to make it personal.
You would do well to consider your own advice and actually approach the issue in an open minded way rather than simply repeat mindless talking points.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There are indeed and - given the stigma was have been discussing - I applaud those who are brave enough to state this publicly.

The question is what is best to do about that experience. To help prevent other women suffering in the same way.

This is where opinions bifurcate.

Emily

Your assumption is that the stigma is what caused the harm to their well being and not some other factor. No one has proffered any proof of that.

 

[CyranoJ]

And now you try to turn it into a personal attack.

... and that will be enough from you.

You will, it's clear, interpret this too as a "personal attack": but I hope you take advantage of opportunities to learn, regardless of your experience with me. You'll be better for it, but for now, you're going on Ignore.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

... and that will be enough from you.

You will, it's clear, interpret this too as a "personal attack": but I hope you take advantage of opportunities to learn, regardless of your experience with me. You'll be better for it, but for now, you're going on Ignore.

And goodbye to your pompous patronizing.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It was an example - not initially offered by me - of why respecting decisions taken in the past may be a truly awful idea. I really can see nothing wrong whatsoever with either the example or the general principle it supports.

Saying “historically people have concluded X, so X must have some merit” is not a very good argument in my opinion. It would support all sorts of things that we now find abhorrent. It’s not unreasonable to offer the counterexample of slavey. It’s not unreasonable to offer the counterexample of women’s suffrage. It’s not unreasonable to offer the counterexample of rape being impossible in a marriage. It’s not unreasonable to offer the counterexample of legalizing homosexuality and allowing gay marriage. These are all logical things to mention. There are many others.

I don’t see any point debating this self-evident statement.

I have a view about the legalization of sex work that may - I infer - be different to yours. We can discuss this.

But it’s unhelpful to say that the wise humans of the past deemed this so and thus we must respect their conclusions. I’m not going to engage in refuting that argument, as it doesn’t merit refuting.

Your opinion on sex worker regulation may be a valid one to hold. But I don’t agree with the “tradition” element that you use to justify it.

Emily

And the point of Chesterton's Fence isn't to say "we must respect their decisions".
It is that we should consider WHY they made those decisions, what purpose in society something serves BEFORE we take action.
A deliberate and reasoned look, not simply, "I don't like that."

 

[EmilyMiller]

And the point of Chesterton's Fence isn't to say "we must respect their decisions".
It is that we should consider WHY they made those decisions, what purpose in society something serves BEFORE we take action.
A deliberate and reasoned look, not simply, "I don't like that."

I don’t need to know why people historically supported: slavery, women being unable to vote, sex from his wife being a man’s right, and homosexuals being imprisoned.

This is not a useful lens as far as I am concerned.

I like some of Chesterton’s writing. But he was a horrible reactionary and Catholic apologist. I see no need to take his views into account. Particularly when they seem so unhelpful in any of the examples I have cited.

Emily

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I don’t need to know why people historically supported: slavery, women being unable to vote, sex from his wife being a man’s right, and homosexuals being imprisoned.

This is not a useful lens as far as I am concerned.

I like some of Chesterton’s writing. But he was a horrible reactionary and Catholic apologist. I see no need to take his views into account. Particularly when they seem so unhelpful in any of the examples I have cited.

Emily

So, you think the concept of understanding a system before we make changes to it is a bad one?

 

[CyranoJ]

And goodbye to your pompous patronizing.

I've tried my best to be polite, but enough. I'm easygoing until I'm not. Take several seats and fuck all the way off. If you have to distort what other people are telling you to make your point, you're the asshole.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I've tried my best to be polite, but enough. I'm easygoing until I'm not. Take several seats and fuck all the way off. If you have to distort what other people are telling you to make your point, you're the asshole.

Gee, another internet tough guy. Not terribly surprising. You can't handle someone disagreeing with you in a civil manner, so you are reduced to this.

 

[EmilyMiller]

So, you think the concept of understanding a system before we make changes to it is a bad one?

I’m trying to be polite and reasonable. You seem to want to be argumentative.

You also have now repeatedly accused both me and @CyranoJ of saying things we didn’t. I’m not sure if this is meant to be a debating technique, but I have no interest in argument for the sake of argument. This isn’t a high school debate team.

Happy to discuss differences of opinion, but this has stopped being a discussion.

I stand by what I have said, I’m not going to defend my position any more. It’s not really in need of any defense.

Emily

 

[CyranoJ]

"Ignore," by the way, means that we would have to specifically click on a link to see your further insults and inane bullshit, @Kelliezgirl. For my part: it isn't happening.

(I do delight in watching an asshole continue to yell into the void, though. Do go on with that.)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

"Ignore," by the way, means that we would have to specifically click on a link to see your further insults and inane bullshit, @Kelliezgirl. For my part: it isn't happening.

(I do delight in watching an asshole continue to yell into the void, though. Do go on with that.)

Sweetie, this isn't an airport, you don't need to announce your departure, you can just go. The adults will just fine without you.

 

[CyranoJ]

See? Like that.

By all means, keep going. Eventually you will Win. I promise!

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I’m trying to be polite and reasonable. You seem to want to be argumentative.

You also have now repeatedly accused both me and @CyranoJ of saying things we didn’t. I’m not sure if this is meant to be a debating technique, but I have no interest in argument for the sake of argument. This isn’t a high school debate team.

Happy to discuss differences of opinion, but this has stopped being a discussion.

I stand by what I have said, I’m not going to defend my position any more. It’s not really in need of any defense.

Emily

Can you give me a specific example of how I have accused you of "saying things you haven't said"?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

See? Like that.

By all means, keep going. Eventually you will Win. I promise!

Awww, you are one of those "I must get the last word" types. Why am I not surprised.

 

[CyranoJ]

Keep going! Victory is just at hand! I promise!

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Keep going! Victory is just at hand! I promise!

Golly, I'm so glad you have me on ignore!

 

[CyranoJ]

Keep going! You're about to Win! You're the best ever.

(If you're wondering, as by now you likely are: I don't have to read Ignored posts to see when they pop up. At this point, I know who it is in this thread. And yes, I'm dedicating the rest of my evening to just straight-up fucking with you. B/c you're just a straight-up asshole. And I don't want straight-up assholes here.)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Keep going! You're about to Win! You're the best ever.

(If you're wondering, as by now you likely are: I don't have to read Ignored posts to see when they pop up. At this point, I know who it is in this thread. And yes, I'm dedicating the rest of my evening to just straight-up fucking with you. B/c you're just an asshole.)

Do you seriously believe your juvenile behavior bothers me?
That's hilarious, really, best laugh I've had all day. Please keep this up, I'm begging you!

 

[CyranoJ]

VICTORY! It is at hand.

 

[CyranoJ]

I PROMISE.

 

[CyranoJ]

WAIT.

Whoa.

Is this how we discover that we're actually soulmates?

I mean come on. We are 100% in a death duel over Who Posts Last. This is clearly a thing we're both, like... into. Right?

What if this is how we learn we're soulmates?

I wish to hell I could see your answer to this. Of course I'm not going to. Totally. Totes. Just totally ignoring you. As I do.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Time for bed kiddies.

@AH_Mod can you please tuck them in?

Emily

 

[CyranoJ]

Good idea.