KillerMuffin
Seraphically Disinclined
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2000
- Posts
- 25,603
Discussion: Feedback and review of stories that you have posted at Literotica!
{{NOTE FROM MODERATOR [PURE], 2-05-05: THIS IS INFORMATION ABOUT HOW THE FORUM WAS *FORMERLY* RUN, POSTED BY THE FORMER MODERATOR, KILLER MUFFIN.
THERE IS SOME VALUABLE MATERIAL ABOUT WRITING AND CRITIQUING POSTED BY KILLER M AND OTHERS. SO THE THREAD---THIS EARLY PORTION, TO 3-30-04, MIDDLE P. 2. OF THE PARENT THREAD WILL STAND AS AN ARCHIVE, CLOSED.}}
Hi, I'm Muffin, moderator of the SDC! If you have any questions, feel free to PM me by pressing the (PM) button below this or any other post I make!
Getting Your Story Into a Discussion
1) In this thread, post the title and a link to a single story (not your memberpage) that you want reviewed and any concerns you want to see addressed by reviewers.
2) Review at least two other discussions. Please give the quality feedback that you would like to recieve.
3) PM the moderator, me, with the names of the authors you have reviewed and the title of the story you volunteered. This way you will have your work reviewed in a timely fashion and I won't make a mistake.
The Rules
We're very strict about which stories can be discussed here. There are a few rules, but they're not difficult to follow. For our purposes, a story will be defined as a work in any of the non-poem categories (except extreme) in a single link. If your story has more than one link--that is chapterized--only one story link will be provided in the discussion.
1) The story must be posted at Literotica.
2) You must be the author.
3) You may volunteer your story for discussion at any time, first come first serve. Please do so in this thread.
4) This is important. In order for your story to make it into discussion you must make an effort to participate in no less than two other discussions.
5) There is no limit to the stories that you may volunteer for discussion, however before you can volunteer another story your previous story must be discussed first.
6) You will have no control over the feedback that you receive.
7) If you want feedback on an unpublished draft of your story, please see the Workshop thread in the forum.
8) You may not post your own Discussion threads. These threads will be moved to the Story Feedback Forum.
Participating in a Discussion
An effort to participate is defined as thoughtful feedback that can provide some insight into the craft of writing or into the story being discussed. This is not as difficult as it sounds, it merely requires that you answer two questions: 1) What did I like about this story? and 2) What did I not like about this story? Additionally, guided discussion questions will be provided with each new discussion.
What is not allowed
The Literotica Bulletin Board is a very large place. Please direct general questions, general comments, personal ads, poetry, etc. to the appropriate forum. Any thread that does not belong here will be moved to the appropriate forum for you. This forum is reserved for guided story discussion.
Additionally, we follow the Literotica Discussion Forum Rules found in the Forum Guidlines at the bottom of every forum page.
Thank you for your cooperation.
How to Give a Critique You Can Feel Good About
From Mickie
This is one of the best explanations I found on how to review someone else's work. I found it at the Del Rey workshop, and this is the pertinent information...
How do I write a basic review?
If you are at a loss, we suggest the following model for critiques, based on a technique used by Maureen McHugh when she teaches at places like Clarion. Reviewers should write at least four sentences, one on each of the following areas:
A one-sentence summary of the submission. This lets the writer know whether or not the reviewer got the main point of the story or chapter.
Point out one good thing about the submission. Be specific. Refer to the writing, setting, dialogue, characters, or plot.
Mention one thing in the submission that you didn't like. Again, be specific.
Ask one question or make one suggestion for improvement.
This method helps guarantee balanced reviews and reminds reviewers to include something positive and something helpful.
This is not the only method or model. Different reviewers have different critiquing strengths.
Any review that provides specific, helpful feedback to the writer is a good start.
What if I can't find anything wrong with a submission?
Uh...try harder.
Even the most successful professional writers send their stories out for critique to improve their writing. If you can't find anything in a submission to improve it, then go steal a Hugo award and start engraving the submission's title on it at once.
How do I critique a writer who's better than I am?
Develop your ability to look at a submission as a reader, not a writer. Don't compare your skills to those of the author, but ask yourself, if you read this in a magazine, what would your reaction be? Which places slow you down? Which parts interested you the most? Learn to read critically.
What if I don't want to hurt someone's feelings by saying something negative?
Your compassion commends you. However...
If you don't tell writers where they can improve, they'll never get any better. By following the model we suggested above, you will always give a balanced review, with positives as well as negatives.
Several workshop members also suggest a light touch. Brie writes: "HUMOR. It's a way to get past defensiveness. Larry West, for example, may absolutely rip my stories apart at the seams, but i'm generally too busy giggling to get huffy."
What if the writing is so awful I can't find anything positive to say?
First, remember that we were all beginners once.
Second, don't try to correct everything. Pick out one specific area--grammar, dialogue, setting--and give the writer one piece of advice, one tool, that he or she can use immediately. The next time you see a submission by that writer, you'll be able to find one positive thing to say!
How can I get more reviews of my submission?
You mean aside from bribes?
The easiest method is to give more reviews. Pay attention to writers who do reviews, and then critique their work.
I really can't add anything to that, to tell the truth. However, if you can't do exactly what's in the model, then do the best you can. No one is grading here, so just tell us what you think!
- Mickie
From Judo
Positive Summary: You introduce a wonderful little model, properly credited, for reviewing almost anything, including reading someone else's writing.
Negative: Then, you follow up the little model with a page-and-a-half of FAQs' text indistinguishable from the model.
Humor: It's a lot to read for instructions (especially if you're the type who likes to throw them away). Perhaps a little color coding would help identify the sub-sections and not make the instructions seem so long.
- Judo
From Angeline
KM, hope you don't mind me barging into your thread, but as a former English teacher and an editor who, for years, has given author feedback pretty much daily, I wanted to make the following point.
There is a difference between subjective and objective feedback. The former is marginally interesting, but won't help the author write a better story and, at worst, is simply browbeating. Objective feedback, on the other hand, is specific, uses examples to clarify, and may even offer suggestions for improvement. This is what authors need.
Subjective Examples:
I didn't like this story.
The main character doesn't work.
This isn't a story.
Ok, reviewer. Great! That tells me um your opinion, but nothing about my story.
Objective Examples:
I didn't like this story because there are so many problems with grammar and punctuation, I was unable to enjoy. For example, in the following paragraph, I have noted problems with subject-verb agreement and comma usage. You can fix this by reading [add resource link here] or by having one of the onsite editors review your story.
Here is the rewritten paragraph with the errors corrected.
2. I don't think your main character works because her behavior is inconsistent. For example in paragraph 7 Mathilde describes herself as "shy," someone who "always stays in the background." Then, in paragraph 14, she no sooner arrives at Club Med than she runs in the bar and gives all the men lap dances.
Here are some suggestions to clarify her why she changed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
You get the idea. If you need to see an example of a good objective review, look an one done by JUDO. She's thorough, specific, and doesn't get personal about it..
{{NOTE FROM MODERATOR [PURE], 2-05-05: THIS IS INFORMATION ABOUT HOW THE FORUM WAS *FORMERLY* RUN, POSTED BY THE FORMER MODERATOR, KILLER MUFFIN.
THERE IS SOME VALUABLE MATERIAL ABOUT WRITING AND CRITIQUING POSTED BY KILLER M AND OTHERS. SO THE THREAD---THIS EARLY PORTION, TO 3-30-04, MIDDLE P. 2. OF THE PARENT THREAD WILL STAND AS AN ARCHIVE, CLOSED.}}
Hi, I'm Muffin, moderator of the SDC! If you have any questions, feel free to PM me by pressing the (PM) button below this or any other post I make!
Getting Your Story Into a Discussion
1) In this thread, post the title and a link to a single story (not your memberpage) that you want reviewed and any concerns you want to see addressed by reviewers.
2) Review at least two other discussions. Please give the quality feedback that you would like to recieve.
3) PM the moderator, me, with the names of the authors you have reviewed and the title of the story you volunteered. This way you will have your work reviewed in a timely fashion and I won't make a mistake.
The Rules
We're very strict about which stories can be discussed here. There are a few rules, but they're not difficult to follow. For our purposes, a story will be defined as a work in any of the non-poem categories (except extreme) in a single link. If your story has more than one link--that is chapterized--only one story link will be provided in the discussion.
1) The story must be posted at Literotica.
2) You must be the author.
3) You may volunteer your story for discussion at any time, first come first serve. Please do so in this thread.
4) This is important. In order for your story to make it into discussion you must make an effort to participate in no less than two other discussions.
5) There is no limit to the stories that you may volunteer for discussion, however before you can volunteer another story your previous story must be discussed first.
6) You will have no control over the feedback that you receive.
7) If you want feedback on an unpublished draft of your story, please see the Workshop thread in the forum.
8) You may not post your own Discussion threads. These threads will be moved to the Story Feedback Forum.
Participating in a Discussion
An effort to participate is defined as thoughtful feedback that can provide some insight into the craft of writing or into the story being discussed. This is not as difficult as it sounds, it merely requires that you answer two questions: 1) What did I like about this story? and 2) What did I not like about this story? Additionally, guided discussion questions will be provided with each new discussion.
What is not allowed
The Literotica Bulletin Board is a very large place. Please direct general questions, general comments, personal ads, poetry, etc. to the appropriate forum. Any thread that does not belong here will be moved to the appropriate forum for you. This forum is reserved for guided story discussion.
Additionally, we follow the Literotica Discussion Forum Rules found in the Forum Guidlines at the bottom of every forum page.
Thank you for your cooperation.
How to Give a Critique You Can Feel Good About
From Mickie
This is one of the best explanations I found on how to review someone else's work. I found it at the Del Rey workshop, and this is the pertinent information...
How do I write a basic review?
If you are at a loss, we suggest the following model for critiques, based on a technique used by Maureen McHugh when she teaches at places like Clarion. Reviewers should write at least four sentences, one on each of the following areas:
A one-sentence summary of the submission. This lets the writer know whether or not the reviewer got the main point of the story or chapter.
Point out one good thing about the submission. Be specific. Refer to the writing, setting, dialogue, characters, or plot.
Mention one thing in the submission that you didn't like. Again, be specific.
Ask one question or make one suggestion for improvement.
This method helps guarantee balanced reviews and reminds reviewers to include something positive and something helpful.
This is not the only method or model. Different reviewers have different critiquing strengths.
Any review that provides specific, helpful feedback to the writer is a good start.
What if I can't find anything wrong with a submission?
Uh...try harder.
Even the most successful professional writers send their stories out for critique to improve their writing. If you can't find anything in a submission to improve it, then go steal a Hugo award and start engraving the submission's title on it at once.
How do I critique a writer who's better than I am?
Develop your ability to look at a submission as a reader, not a writer. Don't compare your skills to those of the author, but ask yourself, if you read this in a magazine, what would your reaction be? Which places slow you down? Which parts interested you the most? Learn to read critically.
What if I don't want to hurt someone's feelings by saying something negative?
Your compassion commends you. However...
If you don't tell writers where they can improve, they'll never get any better. By following the model we suggested above, you will always give a balanced review, with positives as well as negatives.
Several workshop members also suggest a light touch. Brie writes: "HUMOR. It's a way to get past defensiveness. Larry West, for example, may absolutely rip my stories apart at the seams, but i'm generally too busy giggling to get huffy."
What if the writing is so awful I can't find anything positive to say?
First, remember that we were all beginners once.
Second, don't try to correct everything. Pick out one specific area--grammar, dialogue, setting--and give the writer one piece of advice, one tool, that he or she can use immediately. The next time you see a submission by that writer, you'll be able to find one positive thing to say!
How can I get more reviews of my submission?
You mean aside from bribes?
The easiest method is to give more reviews. Pay attention to writers who do reviews, and then critique their work.
I really can't add anything to that, to tell the truth. However, if you can't do exactly what's in the model, then do the best you can. No one is grading here, so just tell us what you think!
- Mickie
From Judo
Positive Summary: You introduce a wonderful little model, properly credited, for reviewing almost anything, including reading someone else's writing.
Negative: Then, you follow up the little model with a page-and-a-half of FAQs' text indistinguishable from the model.
Humor: It's a lot to read for instructions (especially if you're the type who likes to throw them away). Perhaps a little color coding would help identify the sub-sections and not make the instructions seem so long.
- Judo
From Angeline
KM, hope you don't mind me barging into your thread, but as a former English teacher and an editor who, for years, has given author feedback pretty much daily, I wanted to make the following point.
There is a difference between subjective and objective feedback. The former is marginally interesting, but won't help the author write a better story and, at worst, is simply browbeating. Objective feedback, on the other hand, is specific, uses examples to clarify, and may even offer suggestions for improvement. This is what authors need.
Subjective Examples:
I didn't like this story.
The main character doesn't work.
This isn't a story.
Ok, reviewer. Great! That tells me um your opinion, but nothing about my story.
Objective Examples:
I didn't like this story because there are so many problems with grammar and punctuation, I was unable to enjoy. For example, in the following paragraph, I have noted problems with subject-verb agreement and comma usage. You can fix this by reading [add resource link here] or by having one of the onsite editors review your story.
Here is the rewritten paragraph with the errors corrected.
2. I don't think your main character works because her behavior is inconsistent. For example in paragraph 7 Mathilde describes herself as "shy," someone who "always stays in the background." Then, in paragraph 14, she no sooner arrives at Club Med than she runs in the bar and gives all the men lap dances.
Here are some suggestions to clarify her why she changed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
You get the idea. If you need to see an example of a good objective review, look an one done by JUDO. She's thorough, specific, and doesn't get personal about it..
Last edited by a moderator: