Advice on Loving Wives

[NoTalentHack]

Lush also has a non consent rule and unlike here does not have a non consent category to send mixed messages. I think they have rough sex or something like that.

Not that lit would do it anyway, but its too late in the game to try and create a new category. My suggestions would be "Hot wife" and cheating, cuck, stag and other subsets would neatly fit into it.

Yeah. they have a "reluctance" and a "mind control" though, which... okay? As long as you don't use the r-word, I guess. No, the other one. I do wonder if Medusa's Daughter will manage to make it into their mind control category.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Agreed. I love Cagivagurl’s stuff, but a lot of it is the textbook definition of RAAC. The one with the wife who went on tour with a band and fucked all of them for weeks, then the leader said so on national TV? Even gets a tattoo to commemorate the experience? And then the husband eventually forgives her for… reasons? Yeah, no.

And then the flip side is if the husband cheats, he’s always an evil monster that deserves the retribution visited upon him. Like, wrote what you want to write, but an occasional change there would be nice. I was glad to see her most recent longer-form one moved away from that formula.

LOL.... You think my stories are text book????

You do understand the definition of fiction... Right?

Thanks for unrequested critique....
The answer is simple. Don't like... Don't read...

Cagivagurl

 

[lovecraft68]

Yeah. they have a "reluctance" and a "mind control" though, which... okay? As long as you don't use the r-word, I guess. No, the other one. I do wonder if Medusa's Daughter will manage to make it into their mind control category.

MC is non consent to me, and if you think about it its not hard to see why, but I don't think most people like to admit that even though we're dealing with fiction.

I don't bother trying to post over there or SOL. I barely have time to write period these days, I don't need another thing.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I kinda feel like you're intentionally trying to ignore common sense...

I kinda feel like you're intentionally trying to ignore my own argument.

However, if you write a story from a male MC's perspective, where said male MC is being cuckolded, or cheated on, or wronged in any other way, the readers will empathize with him. They will put themselves into the MC's position. They will FEEL like it was happening to them and react to what happens to the MC as if it were happening to them.

But if I write it from a male MC's perspective who enjoys what's happening to him, they won't. If I write it from a female MC's perspective who enjoys doing it to him, they won't, either. Get the picture?

 

[NoTalentHack]

LOL.... You think my stories are text book????

You do understand the definition of fiction... Right?

Thanks for unrequested critique....
The answer is simple. Don't like... Don't read...

Cagivagurl

I DO like your stuff, and I don’t think your stories themselves are textbook. You have great story ideas, you tell them well, and i find them very entertaining.

I do also think, though, that if you asked a hundred LW writers to name the person most likely to write a RAAC ending, you’d score pretty high. Of the many stories you have in LW, only a handful end with anything besides reconciliation if the MMC is a man, and if it doesn’t, it’s almost always presented with “I’m probably wrong, but I’ll have to learn to live with that.” If it’s a woman, it almost always ends in a BTB. Like I said, write what you want to write, but it’s a thing that’s been pointed out numerous times in the comments on your stories; I’m not saying anything you haven’t read dozens of times before there

 

[AchtungNight]

Thx to everyone who contributes to this thread. I think for the story I will make clear that the resort is a more ethical swinging community than most stereotypical depictions of such places. Same for most of the regular people there, including the MMC. The FMC I’m still fleshing out, I want to make her a newcomer so as to clue readers in about the ethics of the place more easily. I’m thinking her husband will have a business relationship with the place but not a personal one, at least not since they got married. And when they separated, he allows her to vacation there to figure things out. She’s not sure what she wants, is at least willing to explore options. She knows some celebrities visit the place- she would not pass up such a chance but honestly doesn’t expect it to happen. Then her old crush shows up as a Casanova type, she doesn’t recognize him at first (poor memory and he uses another name besides his legal name in general discussion similar to William Mapother aka Tom Cruise), he’s happy to show her around… one thing leads to another. He will know she’s married but the fact that she’s unsure about its strength is enough for his ethics. That she has a hall pass is also nice. This should allow me to get the couple together and break them up at the end when they both accept it was more of a fling than a lasting relationship. If anyone wants them punished… they can go to hell. I’m not writing for trolls.

 

[lovecraft68]

I kinda feel like you're intentionally trying to ignore my own argument.

But if I write it from a male MC's perspective who enjoys what's happening to him, they won't. If I write it from a female MC's perspective who enjoys doing it to him, they won't, either. Get the picture?

I don't think OCS is understanding that what you're talking about is the double standard that exists among a decent size chunk of the readership.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Thx to everyone who contributes to this thread. I think for the story I will make clear that the resort is a more ethical swinging community than most stereotypical depictions of such places. Same for most of the regular people there, including the MMC. The FMC I’m still fleshing out, I want to make her a newcomer so as to clue readers in about the ethics of the place more easily. I’m thinking her husband will have a business relationship with the place but not a personal one, at least not since they got married. And when they separated, he allows her to vacation there to figure things out. She’s not sure what she wants, is at least willing to explore options. She knows some celebrities visit the place- she would not pass up such a chance but honestly doesn’t expect it to happen. Then her old crush shows up as a Casanova type, she doesn’t recognize him at first (poor memory and he uses another name besides his legal name in general discussion similar to William Mapother aka Tom Cruise), he’s happy to show her around… one thing leads to another. He will know she’s married but the fact that she’s unsure about its strength is enough for his ethics. That she has a hall pass is also nice. This should allow me to get the couple together and break them up at the end when they both accept it was more of a fling than a lasting relationship. If anyone wants them punished… they can go to hell. I’m not writing for trolls.

Can’t wait to read it.

 

[lovecraft68]

I have a story in LW from last year that was just eviscerated. Honestly, I saw it coming and understand why. But a couple of days ago I had someone send me feedback raving over the story because they understood the concept I was going for and kept their judgement aligned simply with the goal. They told me I should write more like it

So if I do drop something again in LW I'll dedicate it to "My one fan here"

 

[AchtungNight]

Can’t wait to read it.

Thx. It will take me some time, I’ll be busy with family stuff in the near future and I’m doing a polyamorous retelling of a video game on another site that is getting great feedback right now, so that is taking priority for my writing generally. But I am keeping my notes and preparing for this. When I get it finished, I’ll try to remember to provide a link if the thread is dead.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I don't think OCS is understanding that what you're talking about is the double standard that exists among a decent size chunk of the readership.

That might be part of it, but I think part of it is also that the cuckold stuff on the site very, very rarely comes off as in any way living to the husband. There’s one series in Fetish that’s really great, where the couple talks a lot about what they’re doing, establishing boundaries (both his and hers), and then they roll with it until it’s time to talk again. That comes off as loving and consensual, and it’s incredibly rare for cuck stories here.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I kinda feel like you're intentionally trying to ignore my own argument.

But if I write it from a male MC's perspective who enjoys what's happening to him, they won't. If I write it from a female MC's perspective who enjoys doing it to him, they won't, either. Get the picture?

If you write from an MMC's perspective who enjoys what's happening to him, they will still FEEL like it's happening to THEM. Like a self-insert. Just because they get told a story from someone who's gay, they don't suddenly turn gay.

If you write it from the FMC's perspective, the majority of readers (at least it appears to me that way) are still male and therefore will have a hard time identifying with a person who is the opposite gender. They will still ask themselves "How could she do that to the guy!?".

If you, however, write it from the MMC's perspective while he's the Bull in the cuckold story, they won't give a rat's ass about the cucked side character. That's what gave me this impression in the first place. I simply struggle to believe that readers actually sit in front of their screens, reading about a bull story, and think "Nice, look, another guy who's awesome and get's all the women". I honestly think it's more likely they enjoy it because they experience it vicariously.

 

[MillieDynamite]

SOL is shit for comments. And the voting is a mindboggling formula to pull everything toward the middle.

MC is non consent to me, and if you think about it its not hard to see why, but I don't think most people like to admit that even though we're dealing with fiction.

I don't bother trying to post over there or SOL. I barely have time to write period these days, I don't need another thing.

 

[lovecraft68]

That might be part of it, but I think part of it is also that the cuckold stuff on the site very, very rarely comes off as in any way living to the husband. There’s one series in Fetish that’s really great, where the couple talks a lot about what they’re doing, establishing boundaries (both his and hers), and then they roll with it until it’s time to talk again. That comes off as loving and consensual, and it’s incredibly rare for cuck stories here.

I see that, I mentioned somewhere in here the the humiliation stuff has gotten to an extreme and posed that its what leads to the BTB extreme...one culture always creates a counter culture.

I do use humiliation, but the angle is the husband is never an innocent bystander, there's a reason he's being treated that way. Readers still don't care for it, but its a far cry from the husband just being mistreated.

I think the definition of cuck has been devolving over time and I doubt its going to get any better.

I'll mention again how I find it interesting that in the e-book market that materiel sells well and if you watch porn videos of humiliation type cuck vids the comments are generally favorable. I wonder if lit is the outlier for some reason.

 

[madelinemasoch]

If you write from an MMC's perspective who enjoys what's happening to him, they will still FEEL like it's happening to THEM. Like a self-insert. Just because they get told a story from someone who's gay, they don't suddenly turn gay.

If you write it from the FMC's perspective, the majority of readers (at least it appears to me that way) are still male and therefore will have a hard time identifying with a person who is the opposite gender. They will still ask themselves "How could she do that to the guy!?".

Then these are simply beyond the outer limits of these particular readers' empathy. Maybe they should develop it more, to empathize with people who are different from them. This is where empathy does not equal vicarious experience. Vicarious experience is also not the only way to read. I rarely ever read anything on here that way.

If you, however, write it from the MMC's perspective while he's the Bull in the cuckold story, they won't give a rat's ass about the cucked side character.

I find this somewhat surprising. Then again, it's not. It seems more like a toxic reaction to emasculation, or the less masculine type of person, judging by comments I've read. Almost like many readers (not all) don't actually come at these things from an empathetic point of view, but from a calloused and narrow-minded one.

 

[NoTalentHack]

SOL is shit for comments. And the voting is a mindboggling formula to pull everything toward the middle.

Agreed there. I bailed when the highest rated "story" for the month by a mile was a "kids these days, look at how fucking woke they are" rant by some Vietnam vet about the time they went to their granddaughter's school.

 

[lovecraft68]

Agreed there. I bailed when the highest rated "story" for the month by a mile was a "kids these days, look at how fucking woke they are" rant by some Vietnam vet about the time they went to their granddaughter's school.

That's considered a story? Was it an essay or something like that?

 

[NoTalentHack]

I see that, I mentioned somewhere in here the the humiliation stuff has gotten to an extreme and posed that its what leads to the BTB extreme...one culture always creates a counter culture.

I do use humiliation, but the angle is the husband is never an innocent bystander, there's a reason he's being treated that way. Readers still don't care for it, but its a far cry from the husband just being mistreated.

I think the definition of cuck has been devolving over time and I doubt its going to get any better.

I'll mention again how I find it interesting that in the e-book market that materiel sells well and if you watch porn videos of humiliation type cuck vids the comments are generally favorable. I wonder if lit is the outlier for some reason.

Cuck stuff does well over on Lush, too. I do think that part of the reason that cuck does poorly is specifically because LW is here. Like I said before, this is the only sizable site where you can find the divorce drama stuff that doesn't come from a "husband = always mean bad wrong, wife = longsuffering, deserved to have an affair as a treat" POV.

 

[NoTalentHack]

That's considered a story? Was it an essay or something like that?

NOPE. Just "I went to my granddaughter's school for career day, have a listen to how I pissed off the woke teacher and wowed the kids with my non-PC bullshit. Well, except the gay kids that talked back, but they're a buncha f******s anyways, and I owned them with my sharp-witted NO U strategy." I noped the fuck out of the site after that, even though there are some really good writers over there. Remember how you said you refused to chase the BBC crowd? Yeah, not going after that. I'll post here for a bit longer, then focus on Amazon and hopefully find some traction.

ETA: I mean, I'll probably keep posting here, too, because where else am I gonna put my LW stuff, but my focus is going to change.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I DO like your stuff, and I don’t think your stories themselves are textbook. You have great story ideas, you tell them well, and i find them very entertaining.

I do also think, though, that if you asked a hundred LW writers to name the person most likely to write a RAAC ending, you’d score pretty high. Of the many stories you have in LW, only a handful end with anything besides reconciliation if the MMC is a man, and if it doesn’t, it’s almost always presented with “I’m probably wrong, but I’ll have to learn to live with that.” If it’s a woman, it almost always ends in a BTB. Like I said, write what you want to write, but it’s a thing that’s been pointed out numerous times in the comments on your stories; I’m not saying anything you haven’t read dozens of times before there

LOL... I don't write to pander to commenters.
I didn't comment in this thread to get into an argument over what I write.

I DO like your stuff, and I don’t think your stories themselves are textbook. You have great story ideas, you tell them well, and i find them very entertaining.

I do also think, though, that if you asked a hundred LW writers to name the person most likely to write a RAAC ending, you’d score pretty high. Of the many stories you have in LW, only a handful end with anything besides reconciliation if the MMC is a man, and if it doesn’t, it’s almost always presented with “I’m probably wrong, but I’ll have to learn to live with that.” If it’s a woman, it almost always ends in a BTB. Like I said, write what you want to write, but it’s a thing that’s been pointed out numerous times in the comments on your stories; I’m not saying anything you haven’t read dozens of times before there

LOL... I don't write to pander to commenters.
I didn't comment in this thread to get into an argument over what I write. If you want an argument. DM me. This is a thread offering advice to a new writer. Lets just do that....

Cagivagurl

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Then these are simply beyond the outer limits of these particular readers' empathy. Maybe they should develop it more, to empathize with people who are different from them. This is where empathy does not equal vicarious experience. Vicarious experience is also not the only way to read. I rarely ever read anything on here that way.


I find this somewhat surprising. Then again, it's not. It seems more like a toxic reaction to emasculation, or the less masculine type of person, judging by comments I've read. Almost like many readers (not all) don't actually come at these things from an empathetic point of view, but from a calloused and narrow-minded one.

Yes. Most definitely, yes. Especially about the need to develop it more.

We are not born empathetic. You need to break a bone yourself before you can fully appreciate how someone must have felt when seeing them with their arm in a cast. That's also why so many men fail to understand why women are reluctant to report sexual assaults. They don't get the humiliation, and the embarrassment, and the fear. Until something similar happens to them directly or a family member, they will just shake their heads and blame the victims for not trusting the justice system.

 

[NoTalentHack]

LOL... I don't write to pander to commenters.
I didn't comment in this thread to get into an argument over what I write.

LOL... I don't write to pander to commenters.
I didn't comment in this thread to get into an argument over what I write. If you want an argument. DM me. This is a thread offering advice to a new writer. Lets just do that....

Cagivagurl

I'm not interested in arguing with you; that wasn't my intention. But I agree; back to the original point of the thread.

 

[lovecraft68]

Cuck stuff does well over on Lush, too. I do think that part of the reason that cuck does poorly is specifically because LW is here. Like I said before, this is the only sizable site where you can find the divorce drama stuff that doesn't come from a "husband = always mean bad wrong, wife = longsuffering, deserved to have an affair as a treat" POV.

So you're saying LW has gained its size here for portraying the woman as always being wrong? If so its what I've said all along, at least of a certain demographic.

 

[NoTalentHack]

So you're saying LW has gained its size here for portraying the woman as always being wrong? If so its what I've said all along, at least of a certain demographic.

No, not the woman as always being wrong. See Range Cold and a number of other stories in LW. It's the only place where the story is told where the CHEATING is wrong. It's just that the cheater is usually a woman here, and the fantasy... Well, you and I have disagreed about this before, but the fact of the matter is that in most states, the sole place in the American justice system where a guy is likely to get screwed (albeit because of other societal pressures, i.e., sexism and traditional gender-based roles), so it's normal that the fantasy for a guy who got screwed might be "divorce from my cheating wife, but I DIDN'T get screwed."

 

[madelinemasoch]

That might be part of it, but I think part of it is also that the cuckold stuff on the site very, very rarely comes off as in any way living to the husband. There’s one series in Fetish that’s really great, where the couple talks a lot about what they’re doing, establishing boundaries (both his and hers), and then they roll with it until it’s time to talk again. That comes off as loving and consensual, and it’s incredibly rare for cuck stories here.

Let me preface in saying I read your prior response to me in full. The crux of your point is that there's a difference between consensual extramarital sex and nonconsensual extramarital sex, right? I agree.

Where we may diverge is on what makes a good story. We may both strive for realism in emotions but differ on which emotional palette we're trying to hit and express. I think that love can be written even though it doesn't always come off as loving on the reader's end. There are different ways of loving, love takes different forms... I find the twisted forms more interesting and they're realer for me. I hope I don't have to elaborate... only because I think that's done better in the writing itself than conversation.