Punishment?

While I am fairly confident in most aspects of a Dom/sub relationship, the one thing I am not so confident in is the area of punishments. My sub is not into pain. Her pleasure comes from letting someone else control her. Or she may be into pain and has been too shy to express that aspect of her sexuality. She does love to be spanked. Anyways, my question is, what are some forms of punishment out there, of the non-painful variety?

AngusMan said:

While I am fairly confident in most aspects of a Dom/sub relationship, the one thing I am not so confident in is the area of punishments. My sub is not into pain. Her pleasure comes from letting someone else control her. Or she may be into pain and has been too shy to express that aspect of her sexuality. She does love to be spanked. Anyways, my question is, what are some forms of punishment out there, of the non-painful variety?

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If she is not into pain, wouldn't pain make a good punishment?

The word punishment is a huge red flag for me.

A bit of a soap box rant (not personal to the OP) ahead....

If she likes pain, and you like giving it, why is it punishment? really smacks of a sadist trying to justify being sadistic.

A bit like a domestic abuse situation where she 'asked for it' or 'made him do it.'

Punishment to correct behaviour, or because she overstepped the agreed line, yes I get that. Yes I understand that.

I don't understand calling it punishment as a means towards hurting her which is what you both want.

Rant over.

I know it's not a popular view, have discussed this before. But.... it makes sense to me

AngusMan said:

While I am fairly confident in most aspects of a Dom/sub relationship, the one thing I am not so confident in is the area of punishments. My sub is not into pain. Her pleasure comes from letting someone else control her. Or she may be into pain and has been too shy to express that aspect of her sexuality. She does love to be spanked. Anyways, my question is, what are some forms of punishment out there, of the non-painful variety?

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Come on dude, spanking is taboo for parents these days, they've got volumes on nonviolent punishment.

Punishment-remove anything that is important to her, whether physical and mental.

Deny her contact with you for specific amount of time.

Let her sleep alone.

Take back anything you have given her that symbolizes your relationship.

Pain.

Punishment should be for her, not have a negative aspect for you too.
Also needs to be something she can earn back, and not have immeasurable negative impact on her psyche.

There are lots of ways to punish without using pain, but be careful you are talking about real punishment and not tongue in cheek play acting punishment. If it is real punishment, the most important thing to remember is it should serve as a reminder in the future in an effort to curb the offending behaviour, not something which would be fairly easy and perhaps even enjoyed.

Catalina

seela said:

If she is not into pain, wouldn't pain make a good punishment?

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This logic is inescapable.

:caning:

seela said:

If she is not into pain, wouldn't pain make a good punishment?

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Definitely not. I can respond to many types of punishment. I too though and not into pain and am leaning about it more in play. Pain in punishment would ruin everything. It would be a really bad idea.
cheers

Okay, I think you guys have cleared some things up.

She does enjoy being spanked, which I'll classify as "play punishment".

I can't really deny her anything right now, not really even myself, since we only see eachother on weekends.

I think I may try something like humiliation for punishment. She is very shy, so I shouldn't have to do anything too extreme. Maybe just make her leave the bathroom door open while she pees or something. Or maybe post pics of her in the AmPics section. Any other suggestions, or do I need to go in a completely different direction?

And if I did decide to use pain, what would my options be, besides spanking her?

Why do you need to punish her?

You guys are new to your exploring, it's well within your right to establish a dynamic that does not include punishment, should you wish.

You could establish other routines. "Ok one of us fucked up, lets sit down and and have a formal discussion, resolve the issue, then go for icecream/crazy monkey sex" etc.

AngusMan said:

Okay, I think you guys have cleared some things up.

She does enjoy being spanked, which I'll classify as "play punishment".

I can't really deny her anything right now, not really even myself, since we only see eachother on weekends.

I think I may try something like humiliation for punishment. She is very shy, so I shouldn't have to do anything too extreme. Maybe just make her leave the bathroom door open while she pees or something. Or maybe post pics of her in the AmPics section. Any other suggestions, or do I need to go in a completely different direction?

And if I did decide to use pain, what would my options be, besides spanking her?

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Be careful with the humilation thing, especially photos as it can go very badly in a number of ways. You could try setting her an assignment of writing an essay on why she thinks you are upset with her for some behaviour, or where she sees her fault in doing it, how she feels about your reactions etc. This could be set for during the week while you are apart so it doesn't take any of that precious time away. She could email it to you by Thursday, or present it to you the following weekend while on her knees and wait silently while you read it, before officially starting the weekend. This would also give you both time to explore each others thoughts and expectations.

Catalina

Why is punishment necessary? Is she incapable of following directions? Are your rules too complicated? Or are you assuming you need an excuse to do things that turn you (and her) on because it's "wrong"?

My thoughts

My thoughts are IF you want to avoid using pain as punishment (why I have no idea, since it seems it would do nicely) that you wriggle your fingers into her mind, get inside her head and punish her mentally. BUT you should always be clear that you are punishing her and in my belief punishment should be overt and you certainly shouldn't do it with passive aggression (passive aggressiveness isn't any good) So I vote you punish her mentally but do be clear that it is punishment.

Guys, punishment is not unheard of in BDSM relationships. If it were a vanilla relationship, then yes, I would be concerned, but it isn't. While some do not like the thought of it, it is a reality and doesn't mean that one or the other person involved is suspect or not doing as they should be. After all, do we not all quote often to people posting here, no-one is perfect? That means that sometimes correction may be required.

Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

Guys, punishment is not unheard of in BDSM relationships. If it were a vanilla relationship, then yes, I would be concerned, but it isn't. While some do not like the thought of it, it is a reality and doesn't mean that one or the other person involved is suspect or not doing as they should be. After all, do we not all quote often to people posting here, no-one is perfect? That means that sometimes correction may be required.

Catalina

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We know that.

We're just saying that it doesn't need to be a default of the relationship, and that as a newbie, he can consider his options and *not* have punishments if he doesn't want to.

If he's not comfortable with it, he shouldn't have to do it. He has as much emotional investment and needs to protect himself, just like a submissive entering a relationship would.

catalina_francisco said:

Be careful with the humilation thing, especially photos as it can go very badly in a number of ways. You could try setting her an assignment of writing an essay on why she thinks you are upset with her for some behaviour, or where she sees her fault in doing it, how she feels about your reactions etc. This could be set for during the week while you are apart so it doesn't take any of that precious time away. She could email it to you by Thursday, or present it to you the following weekend while on her knees and wait silently while you read it, before officially starting the weekend. This would also give you both time to explore each others thoughts and expectations.

Catalina

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That sounds PERFECT! She does love to write. I'll go with that.

never mind.

Lizzie_Borden said:

We know that.

We're just saying that it doesn't need to be a default of the relationship, and that as a newbie, he can consider his options and *not* have punishments if he doesn't want to.

If he's not comfortable with it, he shouldn't have to do it. He has as much emotional investment and needs to protect himself, just like a submissive entering a relationship would.

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Thank you for that. I'm actually not the one who brought up the punishment thing. She is. I'm not comfortable with any punishment, but the writing suggestion by Catalina is the best idea I think.

AngusMan said:

Thank you for that. I'm actually not the one who brought up the punishment thing. She is. I'm not comfortable with any punishment, but the writing suggestion by Catalina is the best idea I think.

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Writing is great. I have struggled with writing as some of my tasks but it has always been good for both of us.
cheers

AngusMan said:

Thank you for that. I'm actually not the one who brought up the punishment thing. She is. I'm not comfortable with any punishment, but the writing suggestion by Catalina is the best idea I think.

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What were her reasons for bringing it up? I'm sincerely curious, because I wouldn't enter a relationship expecting a punishment protocol to be set in place from the get go. It sort of feels like there's an air of expectation of failure, and that sets a bad tone for everything to come. That's just my personal opinion however. I know punishment works for people. But if she's new too, how does she know what will or won't work? Is her bringing it up part of her exploring?

I try my best. Trying, and not succeeding, for me doesn't warrant punishment, because punishment in those circumstances would fuck my head up. And if I were to do something deliberate, well then, there's more wrong than punishment would fix.

Me, I get corrections. If I get a bit lax in the housework, or taking care of myself, or exercising, things like that, then I get set straight. Usually it's entirely unpleasant.

Could that be more what she's looking for?

AngusMan said:

That sounds PERFECT! She does love to write. I'll go with that.

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Just don't expect her to be happy about some of the writing assignments. Really. A discipline or a punishment are still disciplines or punishments. And such things do not happy submissive make.

If they do, I can strongly suggest purchasing a pretty rosary and having her write her own Hail Mary. Then instead of a punishment or discipline when she feels she needs extra attention, she can be assigned however many Hail Marys. And once the PYL sees finds the signs to such a thing coming, it can work preemptively, too... On the off chance that anyone is curious.

re: D/s interactivity

AngusMan said:

While I am fairly confident in most aspects of a Dom/sub relationship, the one thing I am not so confident in is the area of punishments. [...]

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It seems that she has told you everything that you need to know. Most subs punish themselves but want (on some level) to impart the punishment to another person.
As you've mentioned later in the thread, she has proposed this. So, damn it, work with her. She probably can tell you what kind of punishment will be what you wants but she wants you to give her permission to externalize it. It is perfectly fine to let her negotiate with you about how and for what she wants you to punish her. Simply remember that she needs to let you have the control to make it effective for her needs.
My other bit of advice is to try to make the punishment fit the transgression. If it's verbal, tell her to pinch her tongue, for example.

shy slave said:

The word punishment is a huge red flag for me.

A bit of a soap box rant (not personal to the OP) ahead....

If she likes pain, and you like giving it, why is it punishment? really smacks of a sadist trying to justify being sadistic.

A bit like a domestic abuse situation where she 'asked for it' or 'made him do it.'

Punishment to correct behaviour, or because she overstepped the agreed line, yes I get that. Yes I understand that.

I don't understand calling it punishment as a means towards hurting her which is what you both want.

Rant over.

I know it's not a popular view, have discussed this before. But.... it makes sense to me

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I can respect that view. I abolished the concept of punishment myself about half a year ago or so. I think when you're dealing with behavoir corrections it's counterproductive.

Sure, it hurts. Maybe there's shame. Guilt, perhaps. But there are also rewarding aspects to it. The attention, and of course the two prime triggers, dominance and submission, so, from one minute to the next, the punishment scene turns into frantic hot make up sex.

Because of this little dynamic I managed to turn this perfect nice obedient slave into a brat. She'd equate being punished as a reward, and so bad behavior as something beneficial. Not conciously. Neither one of us was aware of it going on. Not until we were way

Now we talk about problems. A far less rewarding process.

She gets rewarded when things go smooth. Some control where she likes to have it. Like selecting what we'll watch one night.

now we have penance, which is basically for her. it's the transformation of guilt and such into pride through pain. She keeps control of this, for the most part. I let her decide when enough is enough, unless I think that in the torrent of emotions she's taking it too far.

And then there is enduring pain as a service. I hurt her because I enjoy it, and if she can take what I give then she's doing a good job, something to take pride in, also something that leaves her happy. And because now pain is always associated with positive feelings I think she's starting to develop into a bit of a masochist.

I'm not saying this dynamic is for everyone, but it works for us.

Praefect-the way you explained it, I can see how things ended up with brat behaviour.

Brats are sometimes talked about with light affection but from reading your post can see what hard work they must be.

Glad you both found a way to move on from that and find a way to positively reinforce ways that work for you.
Particularly liked your comment on how she works to take the pain you give.

do you want to punish her? For breaking rules? for not standing the right amount of feet behind and to the left of you? What is it that you are talking about?

I ask because people sometimes talk about "punishment" when they mean "getting spanked during play" and the issue can be confuzzled.

Because i"m an adult and if I do something that is wrong in my relationship (go over my budget on spending, not give him details before I go on a date, that sort of thing) what works best to correct the behavior is us talking about why I didn't do what I agreed to do.

If we are talking about the idea that you want her to mess up so you can have a reason to punish her...I would much rather it just be plain and obvious: "I'm going to smack the crap out of you with this here paddle, ok?" and then I don't have any confusion about trying to correct some behavior.