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Submission is a gift

MeekMe said:
The gift thing just sounds silly to me. If I give a gift, it's no strings attached. Once that gift is given, I don't ever expect to see it again. If I gave a gift to a friend or a boyfriend and our relationship ended, I wouldn't expect to get the gift back. Once given it is no longer mine. Furthermore, I wouldn't expect to take that gift back and rewrap it for the next special person in my life. What a lame gift...

Also, what CutieMouse said. It's a relationship. I get something from it just as he does. I don't view submission as a gift.
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CutieMouse said:
A dominant can have more restrictions on things (hard limits) than a submissive. A dominant can refuse to take things as far as the submissive wants them to. A dominant risks he said/she said situations when engaging in edge play activities - the submissive can change her mind after the fact, and ruin the dominant's reputation or file criminal charges.

No one has the exclusive on risk in the relationship.

And I don't care how dominant a partner is - I am still ultimately responsible for my own safety and wellbeing. I've had partners unwittingly trigger me in the middle of what was supposed to be some kick ass kinky sex. It wasn't anything I could have anticipated, warned him about, or expected him to "read" in me before it happened. It sucked, no harm/no foul, we discussed it when we were calm, and moved on. Because dominant as people, and sometimes shit happens.
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This.

Lord_Steve said:
jesus christ you need professional medical attention. your justification for bdsm is "flirted with a dude two weeks ago (according to me)" and "cooked a shitty meal"? you know the 60s are over, right?

settle the fuck down, non draper. a safeword isn't "laughable," it's a way for two adults to have a good time without incurring injury. doms: respect your subs! don't buy into this prolix horseshit.
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I didn't read that as justification for BDSM at all and I didn't see it as disrespect for the submissive nor the safeword.

I can also react with fascination and a bit of horror at the idea I somtimes see expressed, that you are somehow safer because you have a safeword, as if it was the word itself and not the willingness to stop when asked to.

I read the post as being about the strength to take responsibility even if it means doing the right thing instead of the thing we'd rather do.

It's much like with the example of doing something fun (even if Pinterest wouldn't be my choice of poison) or getting a good meal on the table on time as agreed with someone else.
It's just that with most things, it's not a matter of life and death for someone else when we don't live up to that responsibility. Well unless we are talking about a criminally shitty meal.

More on topic though, I don't really think the concept of gift has anything to do with any of this really, just as I don't consider my respect, trust, friendship etc as gifts.
They are there or they are not.
 
BabblingBrooke said:
A BDSM relationship is just that, a relationship, like any other. I have always thought that both partners were giving themselves to the other. It is a special thing to find someone who shares your kinks. That's a gift, imo.
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But I'm not in a relationship for my husband's sake ot to give him anything. I'm in a relationship for the things I need. I think it's entirely selfish. If I didn't need companionship, support, attention, and intimacy what would be the point?

A gift would be putting great effort to help someone you love, and provide support and meet their needs without any expectation of reciprocation. If I didn't get anything in return in my relationship, I wouldn't stick around for long.
 
I've been lurking this thread from the beginning. I have to admit, when I first read the subject line, I thought this was going to be about somebody feeling giddily blessed to have been born 'submissive.'

I'm against labeling and generalization and usually see all sides of stuff. In the case of 'submission as a gift,' though, I dunno. A gift for whom? I'm sure plenty of 'submissive' people see themselves as gifts. Some 'dominants' too. It's obvious from this thread that some folks of either ilk see things the opposite way as well. In the end, though, does it matter? Everybody is looking for something. Everybody gives. Everybody takes. I just think the lines are always blurry and often indistinguishable. Some people take from giving. Some people give by taking. Some people do and/or expect either--at the same time. It goes back and forth, and everybody involved usually gets as much satisfaction from the scene as anyone involved in any given interaction of any other consensual and intimate type. Isn't that the nature of the beast?

From what I gather, most people crave a relationship. 'Submission' and 'dominance' grow between (among) a matching couple (group), born out of mutual trust. That being the case, I would think that a dominant individual finding a 'submissive' that fits him/her and the submissive individual he/she finds would consider each other 'gifts,' because no matter your taste, finding the one for you, or even a handful of ones you enjoy superficially, intellectually as well as physically, over the long haul, is neither a given nor a simple task. (Some people are much more easily amused than others, I realize.)

Just my uneducated and worthless opinion.

-a
 
IrisAlthea said:
This.



I didn't read that as justification for BDSM at all and I didn't see it as disrespect for the submissive nor the safeword.

I can also react with fascination and a bit of horror at the idea I somtimes see expressed, that you are somehow safer because you have a safeword, as if it was the word itself and not the willingness to stop when asked to.

I read the post as being about the strength to take responsibility even if it means doing the right thing instead of the thing we'd rather do.

It's much like with the example of doing something fun (even if Pinterest wouldn't be my choice of poison) or getting a good meal on the table on time as agreed with someone else.
It's just that with most things, it's not a matter of life and death for someone else when we don't live up to that responsibility. Well unless we are talking about a criminally shitty meal.

More on topic though, I don't really think the concept of gift has anything to do with any of this really, just as I don't consider my respect, trust, friendship etc as gifts.
They are there or they are not.
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in this particular instance it IS a matter of life or death. a shitty dom can ruin someone's life, no matter how good their intentions are. primalex can post as much amateur and misspelled erotica in this thread as he wants, that doesn't change the fact that beating your partner for burning your dinner is just an electra complex writ large.

a dom is, by definition, confident. if you feel threatened by your partner "flirting with another man", you are a terrible dom. Both parties deserve better.
 
Lord_Steve said:
in this particular instance it IS a matter of life or death. a shitty dom can ruin someone's life, no matter how good their intentions are. primalex can post as much amateur and misspelled erotica in this thread as he wants, that doesn't change the fact that beating your partner for burning your dinner is just an electra complex writ large.

a dom is, by definition, confident. if you feel threatened by your partner "flirting with another man", you are a terrible dom. Both parties deserve better.
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And the bolded was what I meant and what I got from that post, not a recommedation to hit people because they fucked up.

In my experience, there are going to be times in any close longterm relationship when you are less happy and disappointed with your partner. For someone who is in a position where they can actually hurt their submissive partner if they are not in total control of those less than sunny feelings, that's a great responsibility and requires strength.
And noone is confident by definition, every hour of every day in their life. You do need to be aware of your own feelings and be able to handle them in a good way, if you are going to be able to act in a responsible an mature way in heated situations.
 
Gianbattista said:
:rose:

Well, from some one else uneducated, I value it. :). Its nice to hear less heard voices too. :)
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Thanks. I tend to listen a whole lot more than I speak. :)

I'm just usually at my best with something going in my mouth than with something coming out. Which I think is probably my gift.
 
IrisAlthea said:
And the bolded was what I meant and what I got from that post, not a recommedation to hit people because they fucked up.

In my experience, there are going to be times in any close longterm relationship when you are less happy and disappointed with your partner. For someone who is in a position where they can actually hurt their submissive partner if they are not in total control of those less than sunny feelings, that's a great responsibility and requires strength.
And noone is confident by definition, every hour of every day in their life. You do need to be aware of your own feelings and be able to handle them in a good way, if you are going to be able to act in a responsible an mature way in heated situations.
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i sincerely mean no offence but how did you get that from the post that i quoted? i agree with you, but i'm not sure how primalex has demonstrated that he is "in control of [his less sunny feelings]" or that he is able to act on them in a "responsible and mature way."
 
I still stand by my original words. It may sound dumb to some but that's fine. I've had a few dominant guys try to get with me and I can just tell by the way they talk to me that think I am weak, inferior and stupid. Some of them have called me cunt and even dumb whore without asking me if I like to be referred that way. I am happy I have held out on submitting to someone. I am intelligent, creative and unique. I've hated myself most of my life and I'm finally starting to acknowledge my power and worth.
 
Lord_Steve said:
i sincerely mean no offence but how did you get that from the post that i quoted? i agree with you, but i'm not sure how primalex has demonstrated that he is "in control of [his less sunny feelings]" or that he is able to act on them in a "responsible and mature way."
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I think your problem here is that you see that a post has been made by Primalex and you immediately decide it's stupid asshattery and that colors the way you read it. I have fallen for the same on occasion with a few posters myself, too.

I'm with Iris here and this part of the post is what I read exactly as Iris put it in other words above.

Primalex said:
*snip*
You think submission is strength because you have to turn off your rationale mind and give in to your desires?

Well, sweetheart, this is where I have to do the opposite. When my desires are the strongest, I have to turn my rationale mind on. This is where I need to remember how easy it is to harm you with my strong hands wrapped around your puny neck. That you don't want any marks in certain areas. That I should listen to your laughable safe word. And I will stop, not because your safe word has some magical power over me due to your strength as submissive; but because I have the strength to imprison all my demons and desires every fucking second of my life at will, even when my cock is deeply buried in your soaking wet pussy.
*sniå*
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He stops, because it's the right thing to do, it's what's been agreed upon regardless of his own desires at the moment. That's responsible BDSM in my books.
 
LostBabygirl3489 said:
I still stand by my original words. It may sound dumb to some but that's fine. I've had a few dominant guys try to get with me and I can just tell by the way they talk to me that think I am weak, inferior and stupid. Some of them have called me cunt and even dumb whore without asking me if I like to be referred that way. I am happy I have held out on submitting to someone. I am intelligent, creative and unique. I've hated myself most of my life and I'm finally starting to acknowledge my power and worth.
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I applaud you for holding out. Men (because she's referencing men) who would degrade or humiliate you without discussing interests and limits first, without establishing guidelines and a safeword, are not practicing BDSM. They are using BDSM as an opportunity to be a jerk. You have a huge amount of say in a BDSM relationship - you are allowed limits.

I hope you keep exploring.

seela said:
I think your problem here is that you see that a post has been made by Primalex and you immediately decide it's stupid asshattery and that colors the way you read it. I have fallen for the same on occasion with a few posters myself, too.
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I must say I agree with this. Lord Steve, several people were instantly ecstatic to see you posting here again which made me curious about you. I miss posters who are here no more, and I was eager to see your contributions. What I see is that many of your posts involve following around one person and attacking his posts regardless of their content.

There you have my unsolicited 2 cents.
 
LostBabygirl3489 said:
I still stand by my original words. It may sound dumb to some but that's fine. I've had a few dominant guys try to get with me and I can just tell by the way they talk to me that think I am weak, inferior and stupid. Some of them have called me cunt and even dumb whore without asking me if I like to be referred that way. I am happy I have held out on submitting to someone. I am intelligent, creative and unique. I've hated myself most of my life and I'm finally starting to acknowledge my power and worth.
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I have no doubt that you feel the way you describe, and if it works for you, wonderful! You sound like you have your head screwed on right, know who you are and what you want, and will not compromise yourself for anyone. I don't know how anyone can help but applaud that. :) You certainly sound like a gift some guy/gal will be lucky to experience one day!

But everyone is different, and I feel differently about me than you do you. I'm not THAT stupid or weak, but I feel pretty inferior most of the time. And that's ok. It's how I'm built. For me, submission isn't a gift I can give. It's what I am. It's why I'm here. So while you seek a relationship with someone who will respect and value the intelligent, worthwhile person you are, I neither want nor need any of that. My worth lies in my usefulness, and I'm as ok with that as you are (rightfully) adamant about your dignity.
 
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I think that the entire premise of submission being a "gift" is substantially flawed, and plays into patriarchal values that women (I'm broadly using heteronormative ques here, as I've never heard a male-bodied submissive use that sort of language) are to "hold out" and "be pure".

People like sex and BDSM/submission doesn't preclude that.

Your submission is no more a gift than my dominance is. When I'm prepping to meet up with someone I like, I spend a lot of effort creating situations that I find exciting and exhilarating. If I spend several days coming up with an elaborate and intense event, there is a value in that. However, I would never go up to a potential partner, and tell her that my dominance is a gift. My cock perhaps, but not my dominance. My dominance is just a part of who I am, an integral aspect of my personality.

In an extremely hetero-normative context, claiming that submission is a gift just reeks of this culture where a woman is told that her worth is in withholding and being chaste. That continues a co-dependent and unhealthy relationship between men and women.

If someone enjoys being submissive, then they get joy out of the acts of being submissive. That is a mutual, self-actualized two way street, in which consenting adults get off together in a way that is actually quite subversive. When engaging in a way that speaks to your core joys, you are removing the patriarchal overtones from the greater power inequity that exists in the world as a whole, and you are saying: "yes, this act may mirror society, but it exists in a radically different framework".

To enjoy and be enthusiastic about submission, that seems as if it would be much more liberating than claiming that submission is a gift to be doled out and withheld.
 
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Lord_Steve said:
i sincerely mean no offence but how did you get that from the post that i quoted? i agree with you, but i'm not sure how primalex has demonstrated that he is "in control of [his less sunny feelings]" or that he is able to act on them in a "responsible and mature way."
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None taken.
 
richard_daily said:
I think that the entire premise of submission being a "gift" is substantially flawed, and plays into patriarchal values that women (I'm broadly using heteronormative ques here, as I've never heard a male-bodied submissive use that sort of language) are to "hold out" and "be pure".

People like sex and BDSM/submission doesn't preclude that.

Your submission is no more a gift than my dominance is. When I'm prepping to meet up with someone I like, I spend a lot of effort creating situations that I find exciting and exhilarating. If I spend several days coming up with an elaborate and intense event, there is a value in that. However, I would never go up to a potential partner, and tell her that my dominance is a gift. My cock perhaps, but not my dominance. My dominance is just a part of who I am, an integral aspect of my personality.

In an extremely hetero-normative context, claiming that submission is a gift just reeks of this culture where a woman is told that her worth is in withholding and being chaste. That continues a co-dependent and unhealthy relationship between men and women.

If someone enjoys being submissive, then they get joy out of the acts of being submissive. That is a mutual, self-actualized two way street, in which consenting adults get off together in a way that is actually quite subversive. When engaging in a way that speaks to your core joys, you are removing the patriarchal overtones from the greater power inequity that exists in the world as a whole, and you are saying: "yes, this act may mirror society, but it exists in a radically different framework".

To enjoy and be enthusiastic about submission, that seems as if it would be much more liberating than claiming that submission is a gift to be doled out and withheld.
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I think this is the most cogent response on this thread.
And I would echo what others have said about D/s being a mutual relationship in which BOTH partners are giving and receiving. I think the analysis of "gift" language within the context of patriarchy and normative male/female relationships and idealized "chaste" women is illuminating and useful.
Thank you for that.
 
LostBabygirl3489 said:
So I had a 'dominant' guy try to get me to submit to him and he actually called me weak. Then I had another 'dominant' tell me I am not submissive because I won't settle for just being someone's fuck toy and nothing more. I did not get mad or go off on them. But it got me thinking. I've always known this. In many ways, submissive types are stronger than dominant types. Subs have to trust with their heart and body...trust can be fickle. Even the most intuitive, someone like me, can be wrong about someone and trust completely and find themselves seriously hurt and abused. But it goes beyond that. To surrender to someone is a very powerful act. And it's a beautiful gift that should not be taken for granted. Ever. People tell me I am intelligent, and I agree in this case...I am smart about waiting. There are so many fakes out there. So many that want to abuse or just use someone like me who is hurting and in emotional pain. But I will not allow that. The person that I will submit to will cherish and adore me because he/she will know that I am unique and sensitive and strong and lovely. He/she will get to know me before I give him/her the gift of my submission. I will accept no less. And neither should you, if you want a long lasting relationship.

:)
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:heart: It is amazing the number of people who throw around the word Dom. Who expect any 'sub' to just now down to what they want. It is hard to find a proper Dom because of all the fakes and phonies. Submission is very much a gift and I can sympathize so much with what you've gone through. I'm sure you will find an amazing Dom one day, if you haven't already :rose:
 
richard_daily said:
In an extremely hetero-normative context, claiming that submission is a gift just reeks of this culture where a woman is told that her worth is in withholding and being chaste. That continues a co-dependent and unhealthy relationship between men and women.
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Wrong context for "gift", I wonder. Probably more correctly understood in the sense of what someone is willing to share in a relationship with someone, in terms of intimacy, commitment, energy, etc. While there's probably some yin-yang thing going on, as in a Dom can't exist without a sub, and vice-versa, it still needs someone to decide that submission is their desired outlet for their sexual and perhaps emotional expression, and that they choose to share that expression to someone who's willing to make the effort.

I've just never read or heard anyone describe submission in terms of chaste or self-worth, and "reeks of this culture" sounds like you're watching too much TV Land and need to get out more. Maybe.
 
Primalex said:
Your submission is not a gift, it's the payment for your very own demons, it's a sacrifice that you have to make to silence the voices of your sexual desires, it's the entrance fee to being reduced to a mindless mess of sexual surrender. I have nothing to do with your submission. I'm just the one who is there when you paid up.
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Welcome the mindfuck.
 
box13 said:
Wrong context for "gift", I wonder. Probably more correctly understood in the sense of what someone is willing to share in a relationship with someone, in terms of intimacy, commitment, energy, etc. While there's probably some yin-yang thing going on, as in a Dom can't exist without a sub, and vice-versa, it still needs someone to decide that submission is their desired outlet for their sexual and perhaps emotional expression, and that they choose to share that expression to someone who's willing to make the effort.

I've just never read or heard anyone describe submission in terms of chaste or self-worth, and "reeks of this culture" sounds like you're watching too much TV Land and need to get out more. Maybe.
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A sub without a partner is still a sub. A dom/me without a partner is still a dom/me. There is no "gift" in having a shared experience with someone, at least not in the way the OP presented it.

You can have a gift of a having a fantastic, monogomous relationship with someone, you can have a gift of having a lovely night of getting thrown in a trunk of a car and dragged out to a forest preserve for a fantastic evening of consensual non-consent, but you cannot give a "gift" of your submission. That entire premise, and entire concept stems from patriarchal culture. If it's not about being pure and chaste, then what is this "gift" about?

Why withhold it for the "perfect" dom, who will be your 50 shades of gray dreamboat, if it's not about being pure and chaste?
 
LostBabygirl3489 said:
I still stand by my original words. It may sound dumb to some but that's fine. I've had a few dominant guys try to get with me and I can just tell by the way they talk to me that think I am weak, inferior and stupid. Some of them have called me cunt and even dumb whore without asking me if I like to be referred that way. I am happy I have held out on submitting to someone. I am intelligent, creative and unique. I've hated myself most of my life and I'm finally starting to acknowledge my power and worth.
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I can't profess to be an expert, but I continue to be fascinated by the concept of submission and control. Although not someone who has ever fully got into the "lifestyle", I do exhibit many of the typical characterists of a switch - probably through this exact curiousity

On other discussion somewhere on Lit, someone once posted an idea that has stuck with me and really rings true - in it's most pure form, the submissive is truly in control as he/she is GIVING over control, willfully submitting.

Any forced or aggressive control - though some may enjoy that - is not the mutually enjoyable experience that a proper DS relationship should be
 
Gianbattista said:
If its enjoyed , why is it not mutually enjoyable, that seems confusing to me, and who says what it 'should' be? :)

My parametres for what things should be ( today:D) are safe, and consensual. That means not involving unwilling members of public, and protecting children in a household from certain exposure for example. If people could really stick to this they would do better than many, many non bdsm households I think at child rearing, setting examples for relationships. :). But for the taking and and aggressive....I don't know. I just don't know. I just feel if its enjoyable, then by definition its enjoyable.
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Nicely said, though I might quibble with the term "enjoyment." There are more compulsions for doing stuff than them being enjoyable. At least for me. :)
 
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