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Comma after and when second clause starts with an explanatory phrase?

tomlitilia

tomlitilia

Literotica Guru
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Posts
842
Consider this sentence:

"A couple of guests were leaving early, and seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."

Should there be a comma after "and"? I think it should, but it looks off.
 
tomlitilia said:
Consider this sentence:

"A couple of guests were leaving early, and seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."

Should there be a comma after "and"? I think it should, but it looks off.
Click to expand...

Your sentence looks good to me.:)
 
"A couple of guests were leaving early and as I was seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."

"A couple of guests were leaving early and I spotted a woman outside our house as I was seeing them to the door."

"I spotted a woman outside our house as I was seeing a couple of guests were leaving early to the door."
 
tomlitilia said:
Consider this sentence:

"A couple of guests were leaving early, and seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."

Should there be a comma after "and"? I think it should, but it looks off.
Click to expand...

General rule of thumb: read it out loud, if needed exaggerate the normal pauses in speaking. Do you want to pause before the "and"? Add a comma. Do you want it to be all read in one go without pauses? Don't add a comma. As far as I know both would be technically correct in this case, so it's all up to personal preference. I would use the comma though, but again, just preference.
 
I believe your instinct is correct, but the awkwardness arises because the second half of the sentence is a bit awkward and is missing something.

Imagine the second half of the sentence standing alone: Seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house.


That doesn't look right because "Seeing them to the door" doesn't fit with the sentence. It's not obvious what it is explaining or modifying. I think what you mean is "While seeing them to the door," which is an introductory phrase that would NOT (I think) require a comma before it.

So I'd write it this way:


A couple of guests were leaving early, and while seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house.

This conveys what you really mean. You spotted the woman during the time you were seeing your guests to the door. Without "while" the meaning of the phrase is ambiguous.
 
You could also get away with scratching the second comma in the rewrite I offered. With short introductory phrases you can sometimes do without the comma. Usually the comma is needed with longer ones.

Ex:

Before I go I have to tell you something. This is correct.

While wandering through the lush forest on my lunch hour, I saw a peacock. This also is correct.

So I think this would be OK:

A couple of guests were leaving early, and while seeing them to the door I spotted a woman outside our house.
 
A couple of guests were leaving early, and as I saw them to the door I spotted a woman outside our house.
 
This used to bother me a lot. My logical wish is to add the comma, making the subsequent phrase parenthetical:

"A couple of guests were leaving early and, seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."

But the comma before the 'and' helps with phrasing, so:

"A couple of guests were leaving early, and, seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."

Go back a hundred years and this would have been quite natural, but modern English is far more sparing with commas. They slow the pace too much.

So... I don't know. I've stopped complaining about missing commas, so long as the meaning is clear.
 
AlinaX said:
I've stopped complaining about missing commas, so long as the meaning is clear.
Click to expand...

This. If it’s clear, it’s fine.

“I was seeing a couple of early departures to the door when I glanced outside and saw...” no commas needed. Or, hell, put one after “door.” It doesn’t matter so much these days.
 
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AlinaX said:
This used to bother me a lot. My logical wish is to add the comma, making the subsequent phrase parenthetical:

"A couple of guests were leaving early and, seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."

But the comma before the 'and' helps with phrasing, so:

"A couple of guests were leaving early, and, seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."
Click to expand...

The comma before the "and" is not optional. It's not a matter of discretion. You need the comma because it is a conjunction joining two independent clauses, and each clause presents a distinct thought.

I think EB's solution works well, too.

My solution uses an introductory phrase beginning with "while" functioning as a preposition (because "while seeing them to the door" is not a sentence it can't be a conjunction).

EB's solution is to use an independent clause "I saw them to the door" beginning with "as" used as a conjunction.

As with my example, you could put a comma after "door," but I don't think you have to. The first clause is short enough that I think you can get away with eliminating it.
 
tomlitilia said:
Consider this sentence:

"A couple of guests were leaving early, and seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."

Should there be a comma after "and"? I think it should, but it looks off.
Click to expand...

"A couple of guests were leaving early. Seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."
 
If you're in the subjunctive you might try a semi-colon. Or just give-up; cause you could never write anything that would be entertaining for a reader, anyway.
 
SimonDoom said:
The comma before the "and" is not optional. It's not a matter of discretion. You need the comma because it is a conjunction joining two independent clauses, and each clause presents a distinct thought.
Click to expand...

Again, this is a site for mainly amateur fiction writers. EVERYTHING is optional as long as it meets the site's rules.
 
jaF0 said:
Again, this is a site for mainly amateur fiction writers. EVERYTHING is optional as long as it meets the site's rules.
Click to expand...

Yes, you're right.

I assume (rightly or wrongly) that when people ask grammar and punctuation questions here they want to know what the "correct" way to do it is in the sense of what would be considered the right way to do it if it was going to be in a work of published commercial fiction. That's what I aspire to when I publish stories here, and that's what I want to know. The standards for this Site are laxer than that, but I think it's good to aspire to the standards of published fiction, because that's the standard that (a) is likely to do the best job communicating what you really want to say the best way you can say it, and (b) is most likely to please and not confuse your readers.

In the example here, omitting the comma before the "and" would meet the Site's standards, and it probably would not provoke any objections from readers. But I think almost all experienced editors, proofreaders, and English teachers would say that the comma is necessary, or, at least, highly recommended. So that's the standard I apply in my comments even if, as you correctly say, it's not, strictly speaking, required on this Site.
 
There is a huge difference between grammatically correct English and colloquial narrative English.
 
jaF0 said:
Again, this is a site for mainly amateur fiction writers. EVERYTHING is optional as long as it meets the site's rules.
Click to expand...

The only way I can justify spending a lot of time on writing smut is that it imporves my writing. This includes improved punctuation.
 
tomlitilia said:
The only way I can justify spending a lot of time on writing smut is that it imporves my writing. This includes improved punctuation.
Click to expand...

No doubt that's why a lot of the authors here do, but it doesn't have to be text book perfect. Conversational English is fine here, hence the suggestion to sound it out.
 
jaF0 said:
No doubt that's why a lot of the authors here do, but it doesn't have to be text book perfect. Conversational English is fine here, hence the suggestion to sound it out.
Click to expand...

I'm not just attempting to improve my writing for "here".
 
You need one more comma.

"A couple of guests were leaving early, and, seeing them to the door, I spotted a woman outside our house."

You need a comma before "and" to separate the two independent clauses:
  • A couple of guests were leaving early
  • I spotted a woman outside our house

You also need a comma after "and" to set off the dependent phrase:
  • seeing them to the door
which modifies "I spotted a woman outside our house."
 
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Wow.

This is creative writing, not technical or legal writing. I’m capable of being a grammar Nazi too, and legitimate mistakes that change the meaning of the sentence or clause ought to be examined and weighed.

But this?

The meaning is clear no matter where you put the comma. At some point, you’ve got to just stop agonizing and trust the reader. If everyone slavishly follows the same rules, everyone’s work becomes that much more anodyne. English is beautiful in its imperfections; why not embrace that?
 
Voboy said:
Wow.

This is creative writing, not technical or legal writing. I’m capable of being a grammar Nazi too, and legitimate mistakes that change the meaning of the sentence or clause ought to be examined and weighed.

But this?

The meaning is clear no matter where you put the comma. At some point, you’ve got to just stop agonizing and trust the reader. If everyone slavishly follows the same rules, everyone’s work becomes that much more anodyne. English is beautiful in its imperfections; why not embrace that?
Click to expand...

You do you.
 
Voboy said:
Wow.

This is creative writing, not technical or legal writing. I’m capable of being a grammar Nazi too, and legitimate mistakes that change the meaning of the sentence or clause ought to be examined and weighed.

But this?

The meaning is clear no matter where you put the comma. At some point, you’ve got to just stop agonizing and trust the reader. If everyone slavishly follows the same rules, everyone’s work becomes that much more anodyne. English is beautiful in its imperfections; why not embrace that?
Click to expand...

As the OP said, the OP is not just trying to write well enough to meet Literotica publishing standards. The OP wants to do better than that. I feel the same way when I write here. I want to improve my writing to the point that I could write well enough to publish commercially acceptable fiction. The publishing world has standards. Wanting to write to satisfy those standards is not being a Grammar Nazi.

Good punctuation doesn't make one's writing anodyne. It improves its clarity and meaning, even if in subtle ways. You might look at the OP's sentence and say "It doesn't matter." But it does. Subtle changes in the punctuation and word choice result in subtle changes and shading of the meaning.

For purposes of getting stories published on Literotica, there's no "need" to noodle over punctuation to this degree, but that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to do so. And it doesn't make one a Nazi.
 
Since everyone else is giving you an opinion, here's my tuppence worth.

The 'trick' to writing a sentence like this is to temporarily remove the interjected clause.

'A couple of guests were leaving early I spotted a woman outside our house.' Not pretty is it?

Maybe try:

'A couple of guests were leaving early. I was seeing them to the door when I spotted a woman outside our house.'

Set up > description of action > real point of the sentence.
 
Last edited:
Ah, well then. The question is whether 'better' means more grammatically correct (according to whatever school of thought) or more engaging to the reader. I would say it's good to understand the rules of grammar, if only to know when to break them...
 
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