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Asking for it

stickygirl

stickygirl

All the witches
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Posts
21,204
I hope this is suitable for the lounge...
So here's the dilemma: a girl goes out in the evening showing lots of leg in a short skirt and T, she goes to a club, a guy comes up to her on the dance floor, they do a couple of dances, nothing smoochy just fun before she heads to the bar, he hits on her and gets pushy, she leaves but finds the taxi stand empty and decides to walk home. He follows, starts calling her names - "tease, frigid, whore ( usual stuff )" and assaults her.
So... should she have dressed more modestly, was she asking for it?
On the one hand, why shouldn't she wear what she wants and do what she wants? After all, every Saturday night girls go out dressed to the nines. On the other, common sense: wear a sack, go nowhere alone, get a taxi home (assuming the driver doesn't assault you instead). The advice is contradictory, frequently given and I can't resolve it.
 
I see these sort of things in very black and white terms. Even if she was stark naked and strutting her funky stuff, if she said no then he has no right whatsoever to touch a hair on her head. That's it. Le fin. To be honest I am always mystified how any guy can assault a woman, even those who claim they're under the influence of alcohol. Now when I am drunk, I do all sorts of silly things. But it never ends up hurting anyone else and I am still able to understand what I am doing and where I am. I don't get it.
 
My question is why does this imbecile feel his behavior is appropriate.

I have no questions for the woman - she's just doing her thing. The man? He's the one that would be "asking for it" if she injured or killed him in self defense.

It is once again another example of how women have to modify their behavior because some men don't know how or don't have the self control to modify their own behavior.

Truly it doesn't matter what women wear or do when faced with such asshattery. We can be walking down the street in a damn burka and still be harassed.

No. She wasn't asking for it.
 
No, she wasn't asking for it.

9vthObz.jpg
 
As the post below makes abundantly clear - It's not her responsibility to "dress and/or act appropriately" whatever that means. It's his responsibility to act like a MAN, not like an ASS.
 
This was a fictitious incident, but could be anywhere - it's all too familiar. It's something that came up in convo at work. One of the older guys had spotted a few girls on their way to a festival with "shorts so short you see the cracks of their ass - I didn't know where to look... " Then it came around to "Asking for it". Not so much inviting assault but the common sense approach for any girl: like your parents used to say "You can't go out dressed like that" because they are concerned for your safety.

You know if you go out dressed showing plenty flesh, you're going to attract attention as much as if you'd put a flashing light on your head. The dilemma is that you want some of that attention but not the wrong sort. It's the wrong sort, even the drunk pests, that ruin your evening and ultimately affects what you do wear.
 
It sounds like the kind of argument that would be made in a less civilized country ... like Saudi Arabia. She could be jailed for dressing like that and/or not submitting.
 
Problem: Boys are not taught to be men.
Solution: Rebuild the sexist-racist culture.
 
Hypoxia said:
Problem: Boys are not taught to be men.
Solution: Rebuild the sexist-racist culture.
Click to expand...

That actually kinda bothers me. This whole real man thing. So basically, there's a difference between being a boy, a man and a considerate mature adult human being?

Is it the definition of a man to be a decent human being? What of women then? If they are taught how to behave properly are they being taught how to be men?

The reality is that grown adult men participate in this behavior. Being a "real man" is as valid as being a "real woman". Basically - it's not. What we need to see, in my opinion, is a distinction of behavior based on maturity and humanity.
 
Someone who does that to a woman should either have his male parts removed or killed. In my mine rape is one of the worst crimes a man commit.
 
There's seems to be an admirable consensus amongst the male posters and if that could be extended to the general population then there would be no problem and no contradictory advice to women.
In an ideal world, one peopled by the enlightened and morally sound that would be the case, but that has not been my experience, and I doubt I am not alone in thinking that. I don't know... maybe it is women who do the policing of 'showing too much flesh'?! In our discussion at work it was actually an older woman who, without finishing her sentence, said 'Well, of course if you go out dressed like that....' We all agreed, as you have done, that of course a woman should be able to walk the streets alone and wear whatever she chooses, yet somehow there is a large unspoken BUT at the end of those declarations.
 
stickygirl said:
I hope this is suitable for the lounge...
So here's the dilemma: a girl goes out in the evening showing lots of leg in a short skirt and T, she goes to a club, a guy comes up to her on the dance floor, they do a couple of dances, nothing smoochy just fun before she heads to the bar, he hits on her and gets pushy, she leaves but finds the taxi stand empty and decides to walk home. He follows, starts calling her names - "tease, frigid, whore ( usual stuff )" and assaults her.
So... should she have dressed more modestly, was she asking for it?
On the one hand, why shouldn't she wear what she wants and do what she wants? After all, every Saturday night girls go out dressed to the nines. On the other, common sense: wear a sack, go nowhere alone, get a taxi home (assuming the driver doesn't assault you instead). The advice is contradictory, frequently given and I can't resolve it.
Click to expand...

She should be more selective about her dance partners. This really has nothing to do with how she dresses. If a man thinks an attractive woman is interested in him, he will pursue her. She can be wearing neck to toe coveralls.

Men who misread the signals are part of the environment and that's the way to deal with it.

What would a man do if he felt threatened in a bar? He either avoids the place, or makes sure he has friends watching his back. If dumb guys are a problem, go in a pack and watch each other.
 
bronzeage said:
She should be more selective about her dance partners. This really has nothing to do with how she dresses. If a man thinks an attractive woman is interested in him, he will pursue her. She can be wearing neck to toe coveralls.

Men who misread the signals are part of the environment and that's the way to deal with it.

What would a man do if he felt threatened in a bar? He either avoids the place, or makes sure he has friends watching his back. If dumb guys are a problem, go in a pack and watch each other.
Click to expand...

You see ^^ - that's the common sense reality I subscribe to. Maybe the conclusion is that we can work towards a better society where women are safe... but mostly it's a rear guard action ( no pun intended )
 
As long as women act like chattel and dress to attract mates, there will be some inherent danger in the hunt.

Guys also encounter dangers, primarily monetary, in mate-acquisition.

It's an imperfect system, but works well most of the time.
 
As usual

Bronze nails it. Lance fails it. :D

Yeah, lack of commonsense in clubbing attire has ZERO bearing upon male deportment. Keep your hands and dick to yourself, boys, unless otherwise INVITED, with actual words! :rolleyes:
 
Lancecastor said:
As long as women act like chattel and dress to attract mates, there will be some inherent danger in the hunt.

Guys also encounter dangers, primarily monetary, in mate-acquisition.

It's an imperfect system, but works well most of the time.
Click to expand...

I knew you were a raging cunt and a liar but I honestly didn't think you were this stupid.
 
Dollie

stickygirl said:
I hope this is suitable for the lounge...
So here's the dilemma: a girl goes out in the evening showing lots of leg in a short skirt and T, she goes to a club, a guy comes up to her on the dance floor, they do a couple of dances, nothing smoochy just fun before she heads to the bar, he hits on her and gets pushy, she leaves but finds the taxi stand empty and decides to walk home. He follows, starts calling her names - "tease, frigid, whore ( usual stuff )" and assaults her.
So... should she have dressed more modestly, was she asking for it?
On the one hand, why shouldn't she wear what she wants and do what she wants? After all, every Saturday night girls go out dressed to the nines. On the other, common sense: wear a sack, go nowhere alone, get a taxi home (assuming the driver doesn't assault you instead). The advice is contradictory, frequently given and I can't resolve it.
Click to expand...
I've always been lucky. We've lived where my husband, our friends, or a GF was driving. No cab needed. Well there were those times we walked too far.
No man has a right to touch or expect a woman to put out even if she is naked. I write this from experience in dressing slutty and being naked.

doog_kuron1 said:
I see these sort of things in very black and white terms. Even if she was stark naked and strutting her funky stuff, if she said no then he has no right whatsoever to touch a hair on her head. That's it. Le fin. To be honest I am always mystified how any guy can assault a woman, even those who claim they're under the influence of alcohol. Now when I am drunk, I do all sorts of silly things. But it never ends up hurting anyone else and I am still able to understand what I am doing and where I am. I don't get it.
Click to expand...
This is another reason we rarely have more than two drinks most times with hours before another drink. Even drunk I've always known what I do or what others plan to do. It's bullshit saying I gave in or I stripped because I was drunk. Maybe drugs work that way but if you know how to take your clothes off you know you are doing it. Still any man shouldn't take advantage unless the lady tells him to.

Rocketman00i69 said:
Someone who does that to a woman should either have his male parts removed or killed. In my mine rape is one of the worst crimes a man commit.
Click to expand...
As a victim many years ago I agree.
 
Greypowerful said:
Bronze nails it. Lance fails it. :D

Yeah, lack of commonsense in clubbing attire has ZERO bearing upon male deportment. Keep your hands and dick to yourself, boys, unless otherwise INVITED, with actual words! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Nonsense.

It's like the back of a ski lift ticket....clubbing has inherent risks.
 
LIVINRFANTASIES said:
I've always been lucky. We've lived where my husband, our friends, or a GF was driving. No cab needed. Well there were those times we walked too far.
Click to expand...
Agreed and personally even taking a cab on my own would freak me out. But sometimes situations happen: we don't plan for dodgy situations but these things seem to spiral out of control so fast...

LIVINRFANTASIES said:
This is another reason we rarely have more than two drinks most times with hours before another drink. Even drunk I've always known what I do or what others plan to do. It's bullshit saying I gave in or I stripped because I was drunk. Maybe drugs work that way but if you know how to take your clothes off you know you are doing it. Still any man shouldn't take advantage unless the lady tells him to.
Click to expand...

I've seen roofies being snickered over on Lit. It happened to a bff of mine in a foreign country: her drink was spiked. So far as I know, the victim will appear to be drunk so the guy will joke to his friends as he looks like he's acting chivalrously - helping the lady home. The thing that stuck in her mind was that she apologised to the guy the next morning for still being 'drunk'. It took about 24 hours for her head to clear sufficiently to work out wtf had happened to her.
 
stickygirl said:
I hope this is suitable for the lounge...
So here's the dilemma: a girl goes out in the evening showing lots of leg in a short skirt and T, she goes to a club, a guy comes up to her on the dance floor, they do a couple of dances, nothing smoochy just fun before she heads to the bar, he hits on her and gets pushy, she leaves but finds the taxi stand empty and decides to walk home. He follows, starts calling her names - "tease, frigid, whore ( usual stuff )" and assaults her.
So... should she have dressed more modestly, was she asking for it?
On the one hand, why shouldn't she wear what she wants and do what she wants? After all, every Saturday night girls go out dressed to the nines. On the other, common sense: wear a sack, go nowhere alone, get a taxi home (assuming the driver doesn't assault you instead). The advice is contradictory, frequently given and I can't resolve it.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'm gunna weigh in on this and what I'm about to say may piss off some but so be it.

Was she asking for it by wearing the clothes she was wearing? HELL NO!
A woman should be able to wear what she wants to the stigma or assumption that she's rape bate.

That being said, putting herself in a situation (walking home alone in the dark) where a guy that has no scruples or morals would be able to rape her without being caught isn't very smart. It doesn't have anything to do with what she was wearing and everything to do with the fact that he had the place and opportunity to do so.

Most people would not walk into a Tigers cage in a meat shirt. It's the same thing when a woman puts herself consciously in a position (like the above) to allow someone who has no morals or soul to take advantage of her. Is it right and should it happen? Hell no, but those kinds of people don't care. The only thing they care about is what they want and how to get it.

Wear what you want, when you want, where you want, but make sure you do it safely. Not because you're "asking for it", but because there is always some asshole who assumes he is entitled to it. The majority of guys would never force themselves on a woman. But if that very small minority who would get the chance they will and have no qualms about doing it either.

Have fun, dress how you want but take steps to protect yourself from that small slimy minority.

Comshaw
 
stickygirl said:
You see ^^ - that's the common sense reality I subscribe to. Maybe the conclusion is that we can work towards a better society where women are safe... but mostly it's a rear guard action ( no pun intended )
Click to expand...

The common sense reality is that most men were raised by their mother. There is a hard and fast rule of relationships which states, "No man will ever treat you better than he treats his mother."


If he grew up in a home where women, especially his mother, were not respected, that is the man he becomes. The secret to working toward a better society is to not have children with men who do not respect the mother of her child, and do not treat her with gentleness and kindness.
 
I think that being courteous to other people is important, whether you are male or female.

Would you behave inappropriately with a friend or a friend's partner?

Treat other people with respect, or how you would treat a friend.
 
Some thoughts to consider

I worry about the implications of framing rape as something a victim (or survivor) can prevent because one of the more serious consequences of that position is that victims then feel at fault or to blame for failing to prevent the rape, making the guilt and shame of an already deeply painful violation even worse. In essence, victims are further victimized when we (as a society) expect them to take responsibility to prevent rape and blame them for failure to prevent it.

It is not within a victim's power to control the bahavior of a perpetrator. We cannot assume that any change in the behavior of a (potential) victim will reliably result in a different outcome. A person can do all the supposed "right" things and still be assaulted, still be raped. It happens every day.

And the advice/precautions are totally impractical:

Don't walk alone at night. What if I need to walk home from work and I don't have a car? Buses don't drop me right off at my front door. Am I partly responsible for being raped if I'm walking home from work when it happens?

Wear modest clothes. Again, entire industries necessitate revealing clothes- waitresses at Hooters/sports bars, professional cheerleaders, strippers, prostitutes, models... If I'm required to wear revealing clothes at work am I partly responsible if I'm raped at work?

From my perspective, the initial question (Was she asking for it?) is unfair. It feels to me like blaming the victim for a horrible thing that happened to them, that was entirely outside their own control.
 
Comshaw said:
Ok, I'm gunna weigh in on this and what I'm about to say may piss off some but so be it.

Was she asking for it by wearing the clothes she was wearing? HELL NO!
A woman should be able to wear what she wants to the stigma or assumption that she's rape bate.

That being said, putting herself in a situation (walking home alone in the dark) where a guy that has no scruples or morals would be able to rape her without being caught isn't very smart. It doesn't have anything to do with what she was wearing and everything to do with the fact that he had the place and opportunity to do so.

Most people would not walk into a Tigers cage in a meat shirt. It's the same thing when a woman puts herself consciously in a position (like the above) to allow someone who has no morals or soul to take advantage of her. Is it right and should it happen? Hell no, but those kinds of people don't care. The only thing they care about is what they want and how to get it.

Wear what you want, when you want, where you want, but make sure you do it safely. Not because you're "asking for it", but because there is always some asshole who assumes he is entitled to it. The majority of guys would never force themselves on a woman. But if that very small minority who would get the chance they will and have no qualms about doing it either.

Have fun, dress how you want but take steps to protect yourself from that small slimy minority.

Comshaw
Click to expand...

It's what I've always heard called 'situational awareness', and I in general think this post pretty well sums up the situation.
 
There are a lot of things that people of all genders should be able to do in a perfect society- tell a cop without a body cam to go fuck himself, for instance. However, in the society we actually live in, they aren't prudent. In the abstract, I certainly favor women wearing sexy clothes or nothing at all in public, so I believe strongly that they should be perfectly safe doing so. Then I go to Walmart and I rethink my position...
Mating displays always carry risk. To say that a woman should take precautions for her own safety is not the same as saying she is 'asking to be raped,' if she wears a short skirt. She is, however, trying to attract the attention of potential sex partners, and ought to have a plan in case she attracts the attention of someone both undesirable and violent. It's not a matter of principle, it's just common sense.
 
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